XSF Discussion - 2019-12-31

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  314. dwd Ge0rG, FWIW, any "stanza" prior to authentication (and, indeed, prior to binding being complete) is ugly and scary in a server. I'd love to rid us of all of those.
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  340. Ge0rG dwd: what's your suggested mechanism that has iq semantics, minus the routing?
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  349. jonas’ <pre-auth-iq/> nonza!
  350. pep. Isn't it just a nonza if it's preauth?
  351. pep. Even if it's an iq
  352. jonas’ pep., but since it matches the filters for IQs, it’s scary
  353. Ge0rG > A XMPP stream element is a Nonza, if its element name is not 'message', 'iq' or 'presence'. From the nonza non XEP
  354. Ge0rG Apparently the author didn't have pre-auth in mind
  355. Ge0rG dwd: also IBR is using IQ and those are sufficiently close to each other to warrant using the same dirty hacks, IMVHO
  356. jonas’ Ge0rG, I’m not so sure about that. Just because IBR made a mistake, we don’t have to repeat the same mistake all over again
  357. dwd Yeah, IBR is very sucky to implement in a server. It means you have rules and exceptions and exceptional rules. We are were we are, but that doesn't mean I'd like to double down on that mistake.
  358. Ge0rG dwd: so what's your alternative proposal?
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  360. jonas’ <pre-auth-iq>
  361. jonas’ <pre-auth-iq/>?
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  363. Ge0rG IQ was very straightforward to implement on the client, response callback and error handling included.
  364. dwd I don't have one. I'd be tempted to reach for the Swiss Army Knife of SASL2, though.
  365. Ge0rG You can't even stuff stanza errors on a nonza.
  366. Ge0rG dwd: yes, please do that. Until then, I'll go on with pre-auth IQ.
  367. jonas’ Ge0rG, why not?
  368. Ge0rG jonas’: because those are stanza errors.
  369. dwd And yes, I should run about and implement SASL2 in some useful servers. I even have a public implementation of it for Openfire.
  370. jonas’ so?
  371. jonas’ nothing prevents you from ebedding a stanza error element in a nonza
  372. Ge0rG jonas’: you need to write your own parser for that special case.
  373. dwd Ge0rG, You know that XEP-0220 has stanza errors inside something that's not a stanza?
  374. dwd Ge0rG, I mean, sure, if you want to argue that stanza errors can only exist in stanzas, fine, but the evidence is strongly against you.
  375. Ge0rG dwd: no, I'm saying that it's impractical for client developers.
  376. jonas’ it’s not
  377. jonas’ trivial in aioxmpp
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  379. jonas’ so your generalisation doesn’t hold
  380. Ge0rG jonas’: I'm eagerly awaiting your PR for yaxim, replacing smack with aioxmpp
  381. jonas’ Ge0rG, me too!
  382. Ge0rG dwd: I tried to minimize the number of wheels you have to reinvent.
  383. Ge0rG With SASL2, it's not about reinventing but about inventing new wheels.
  384. Ge0rG And I remember the last time we decided to use a new stream element instead of an IQ to configure a session, and it backfired.
  385. MattJ You're thinking of CSI?
  386. MattJ Because that was an intentional decision
  387. Ge0rG I'm speaking of CSI, which isn't counted by 0198 and thus has to be explicitly reconfigured after resumption. Also you can't just send a CSI request to the server without checking for support. An IQ would just error back, but CSI will kill your stream
  388. MattJ It was intentional that the stream is in a defined state after resumption, it was intentional that there was no ack
  389. MattJ I did consider iq, but it forced an ack (for a thing which the client shouldn't care about), and increased noise in a protocol that aims to reduce noise
  390. Ge0rG MattJ: you could have gone with a message as well πŸ˜‰
  391. MattJ Yeah, pre-auth message would have been just great
  392. Ge0rG I'm just saying that it's a tradeoff decision where there's no obvious right solution.
  393. MattJ I don't deny that there are trade-offs
  394. MattJ I totally understand that if you have iq code, you want to reuse it as much as possible
  395. flow > Ge0rG> Apparently the author didn't have pre-auth in mind Hu? What makes you think that?
  396. MattJ But from a server perspective, we don't want to be dealing with stuff that is usually routed in a context where it ought not to be routed
  397. Ge0rG flow: is an IQ prior to session binding a stanza or a nonza?
  398. flow > Ge0rG> jonas’: you need to write your own parser for that special case. I also think that this is not strictly true
  399. flow Ge0rG, it's an IQ hence a stanza. But nothing prevents you from sending nonzas pre-auth with IQ semantics aka a required response
  400. flow But FWIW I am torn between using stanzas and nonzas pre-auth, both sides have valid arguments
  401. flow Although Smack recently got a mechanism to listen for nonza responses, as this is required anyway (pre and post auth)
  402. Ge0rG flow: no, but I need to write my own nonza filter and I need to integrate the stanza error parser and extension element parser into my special nonza parser
  403. Ge0rG And I'm not sure whether the error and extension parsers are even exposed for extensibility
  404. flow they are
  405. flow but you have a point here
  406. flow But so do the people who say that stanzas pre auth are harmful. Potentially XMPP is missing a generic container element for nonzas (non-routeable) with IQ semantics (mandatory response) that can be used pre-auth
  407. Ge0rG flow: yes
  408. Ge0rG We should rewrite all of session setup and encryption and compression in terms of that new pre-iq
  409. Ge0rG In XMPP 2.0
  410. flow but depending on the response, you may have to write a parser anyway
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  413. Ge0rG While we are at it, we could use HTTP REST JSON as the underlying protocol. I've heard there is a matrix specification 1.0 out there
  414. Ge0rG Or people copy&paste their IBR code to the invite module and we get a running implementation in 2019
  415. pep. Today?
  416. pep. What ibr code? (/me looks at poezio)
  417. Ge0rG pep.: the modified 0401 is live on yax.im for a week now
  418. Ge0rG You can `/ad-hoc yax.im` to create an invitation
  419. Ge0rG And you can run yaxim from play beta to use that and to redeem invitation links
  420. Ge0rG You just can't render the QR code in poezio because something something ncurses
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  480. Daniel i’m exhausted from 36c3 and from traveling and i can’t tell if user-defined data transfer is some elaborte joke or not
  481. Daniel i heard you like extensible protocol; so we defined an extensible protocol and put it into your protocol
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  485. Daniel n
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  491. pep. I was also under this impression
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  551. Neustradamus Happy New Year Eve to all
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  706. Arc Ge0rG: wait, there's an xmpp client using ncurses to create qr codes? that's fricken awesome!
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  708. Arc I want that!
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  710. Arc login to a server via ssh using oauth2 - they get a URL and associated qr code to login via website either on that device or mobile phone
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  720. Ge0rG Arc: it's an experimental plugin for poezio
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  729. Ge0rG ``` Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–ˆΒ Β Β β–„β–ˆβ–€β–ˆβ–„β–ˆβ–„Β β–ˆβ–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–ˆΒ Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–„β–„β–„β–„β–„Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–€Β β–„Β β–€Β β–€β–ˆΒ β–„β–„β–„β–„β–„Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–€β–„β–€β–€Β β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ Β Β β–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ Β β–ˆβ–„β–€β–„β–„β–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ Β Β β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–ˆΒ β–€β–€β–€Β β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–€Β β–„Β Β Β β–„β–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ β–€β–€β–€Β β–ˆΒ Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ β–„β–ˆβ–€β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–€Β β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€Β β–ˆβ–„β–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–„β–€Β β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–ˆΒ β–€Β β–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ β–€β–„β–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–„β–€β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–€β–„Β β–„Β Β β–€β–„β–„Β β–„Β β–€β–ˆβ–€β–ˆβ–€β–„Β Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–€β–„Β Β Β β–„β–€β–ˆβ–€β–ˆβ–ˆβ–„β–€β–€β–ˆβ–€β–ˆβ–„Β β–„Β β–„β–€β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–ˆΒ β–„Β Β β–ˆβ–€Β β–„β–€β–ˆβ–ˆβ–„β–ˆβ–€β–€β–„β–ˆβ–€Β β–€β–€Β β–ˆβ–ˆΒ Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–€β–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–„β–ˆβ–€β–„Β Β β–€Β β–„β–„β–€Β β–„β–ˆβ–„β–„β–ˆΒ Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–„β–€Β β–„Β β–ˆβ–€β–€Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–€β–€Β β–€Β Β β–€β–ˆβ–ˆβ–€β–„β–€β–€Β Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–€β–„β–ˆβ–€β–ˆΒ β–„β–„β–ˆΒ Β β–„β–„β–ˆβ–„β–ˆβ–ˆβ–„Β Β β–„β–€β–„β–„β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–ˆΒ Β β–€β–€β–„β–€β–€β–€Β β–€β–ˆβ–€Β β–„β–ˆΒ Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–€β–ˆΒ Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–ˆβ–„β–„β–€β–„β–„β–„β–ˆβ–„Β β–„β–ˆβ–€Β β–ˆβ–ˆΒ Β Β Β β–ˆβ–„Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–€Β β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€Β β–„β–„β–€β–€β–„β–„β–„Β β–ˆβ–€β–€β–€β–ˆβ–„β–ˆβ–„Β Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–„β–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–ˆβ–€β–€β–„β–„β–€β–€β–€β–ˆΒ β–„β–„β–„Β β–€Β β–€β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–ˆΒ β–„β–ˆΒ Β β–„β–ˆβ–€Β β–ˆΒ β–€Β β–ˆβ–€β–€β–ˆβ–ˆΒ Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–„β–„β–„β–„β–„Β β–ˆβ–€Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–€Β β–„β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–„β–ˆΒ β–„β–„Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–„β–€Β β–€Β β–€β–€β–€β–ˆβ–ˆβ–€β–ˆβ–€β–€β–„β–ˆΒ Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ Β Β β–ˆΒ β–ˆΒ β–€β–„β–ˆβ–„β–ˆβ–„β–„β–„Β Β β–„Β β–„β–„β–€Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–ˆΒ β–€β–€β–€Β β–ˆΒ β–€β–ˆβ–€β–ˆβ–€Β β–„β–ˆβ–„β–€Β β–ˆΒ Β β–€Β β–ˆΒ Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–„Β β–„Β β–„β–ˆβ–€Β β–€β–„β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–ˆβ–„β–ˆΒ β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€Β β–€β–€β–€β–€Β Β Β Β Β β–€β–€β–€Β β–€β–€β–€β–€Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–„β–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–„β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–ˆβ–„β–„β–„β–„β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β β–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆβ–ˆ Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€β–€ ```
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