XSF Discussion - 2020-01-02

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  107. Ge0rG Maybe the right answer is not "have an easy but ugly way to stuff JSON into XMPP", but "have an easily accessible short book on how to properly XMPP"?
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  115. Zash Maybe title it "The definitive guide" or something?
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  132. Zash dwd: 1) Why not `send_json(wrapper_xmlns, wrapper_name, payload)` and tell people to put their company URL as xmlns and wrapper_name becomes ~datatype. 2) what about pubsub? :D
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  187. dwd Ge0rG, I think you'd still need a relatively consistent API so you got the same results in each library. Otherwise interop - the thing that should be a given with XMPP - becomes hard.
  188. Zash Implementation notes?
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  192. dwd Zash, (1) Might work, I agree. But how do you tell your library to listen for those? (2) Yeah. You could stuff UDT into pubsub, I guess. But realistically that's getting "hard". I bet more people would be using pubsub if we did that, though.
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  195. Zash FWIW we (Prosody) already shove JSON (in JSON containers) over pubsub for reasons.
  196. dwd Zash, Also on (1), how would you structure the XEP-0030 stuff consistently?
  197. dwd Zash, For sure. And I have no doubt at all that you don't need UDT at all.
  198. Zash Verse has a nice `client:hook_pep(xmlns, callback)` API, tho for PEP.
  199. Zash `hook_udt(xmlns, name, stuff...)` something something I don't know, API design is hard.
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  202. dwd Yes, some libraries have good ways of doing things aligned with UDT's goals easily. But even when they're good, they're inconsistent.
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  205. Zash That PEP hook call magically adds the correct +notify flag too. A UDT API could do something similar.
  206. pep. And then you're recreating your whole library API on top of UDT?
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  209. dwd Zash, That is, thus far, what UDT says to do. The only different is that I hardcoded you `name` argument.
  210. Zash and xmlns
  211. Zash and disco prefix
  212. dwd Zash, Sort of. I made the payload element a fixed XMLNS and added another, really.
  213. dwd Zash, And that mostly because I felt it was easier to specify, write a schema for, and write code for.
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  215. dwd Zash, In particular, UDT has the advantage that "unknown UDT" is identifiable as UDT. Which might be useful during development.
  216. Zash I guess, but it seems an un-XML/XMPP-ish thing.
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  218. dwd It is, though less un-XML/un-XMPP than stuffing things into convenient pre-existing slots with wildly different semantics.
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  221. Zash On a scale from WebDev to XMPP dev, how un-XMPPy is it? :P
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  227. dwd Well. I would argue that it's minimally conformant to XMPP. It's not ideal for any specific circumstance, but it's not harmful either. So while it's idiomatically "impure", I don't think it's actively wrong.
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  229. dwd So while the correct answer to the question "Should I use UDT for X?" is probably always "No", the answer is probably always "Yes" if they didn't ask the question in the first place - and that seems to be the usual case.
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  233. dwd Also, I'm enjoying that UDT is generating all the discussion, which will allow the much-more-complex MAMFC to get a number without any scrutiny.
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  235. dwd But Fallback, which I was hoping would generate more conversation, is not. Boo.
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  237. Zash Ye ol' bike shed vs nuclear power plant issue?
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  239. dwd Yes, indeed.
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  248. jonas’ Zash, re xmlns/name in the API: I agree with dwd that it’d be better to be able to detect UDT as UDT without having to know the specific use-case
  249. jonas’ at least as payload. the disco feature could indeed be separate
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  310. ralphm bangs gavel
  311. ralphm 0. Welcome
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  313. ralphm Hi all. Who do we have?
  314. pep. !
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  316. nyco (here, for the minutes)
  317. ralphm Guus sent his regrets.
  318. ralphm Seve, MattJ ?
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  322. pep. hmm
  323. ralphm Well, I didn't really expect much of a turnout the day after new years, so we should be declare a non-meeting
  324. pep. sure
  325. ralphm unbangs gavel
  326. pep. Usual time next week?
  327. ralphm Yes
  328. nyco can you do that? :)
  329. ralphm nyco: I am a well-trained percussionist.
  330. nyco can you unpercussion?
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  332. nyco that anti-drums, isn't it? :)
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  334. ralphm That's classified.
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  336. nyco https://upload.movim.eu/files/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/9IYxN32uq9GpJMcTcZJ17oqCdMwxmEfQRu5nAN6g/58D8_HdTS_qlpKc9ZuMYuQ.gif
  337. dwd nyco, Banging an anti-drum is the same as unbanging a normal drum, I believe.
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  339. nyco And unbanging an anti-drum?
  340. dwd nyco, Never do that, Obviously.
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  374. MattJ Hey, sorry about skipping the meeting... I was unexpectedly somewhere without phone signal or wifi
  375. MattJ Well, I lie. There was wifi, and it required mandatory selling of your soul to various marketing agencies, along with your email, postal address and date of birth
  376. MattJ The privacy policy was pretty clear on that
  377. waqas That's meant to be a creative outlet, you are supposed to make up a persona
  378. MattJ I failed the test then
  379. ralphm Yes
  380. waqas Yes, the turing test is based around real people not reading privacy policies and such.
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  386. dwd Boris Johnson has signed up to a number of free WiFi services around here.
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  389. dwd One can only assume those technology lessons really helped.
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  434. jonas’ brace for impact. I just deferred 21 XEPs. It was overdue.
  435. Zash Ooof
  436. jonas’ (I’m going to post a reply on the deferral of OMEMO so that nobody thinks that this is a political move)
  437. Zash Cover up!
  438. pep. heh
  439. pep. politics everywhere!
  440. jonas’ end-of-mailstorm
  441. pep. Thanks
  442. jonas’ now that I’ve an allocated slot for catching up on XSF work (tuesday evenings), I should be able to run deferrals more regularly
  443. jonas’ it’s also much less frustrating now that I found out that I can simply docker push.
  444. dwd jonas’, My problem not yours, but it'd be really helpful if the mailstorm for deferred hadn't coincided with a couple of updates. I was wondering how XEP-0426 had been deferred already for a moment...
  445. jonas’ dwd, not just your problem, which is why I specifically and manually sorted the updates to the end of the mailstorm
  446. jonas’ otherwise they would’ve been mixed
  447. jonas’ will be better in the future since there’ll be fewer deferrals
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  454. Guus jonas’: massive amounts of appreciation for the massive amount of work that you perform!
  455. Guus (aka: I just opened my mailbox)
  456. jonas’ Guus, please, also clap for pep., who’s been doing most of the editor work in the last months
  457. jonas’ the deferrals was literally just running a script
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  459. Guus claps for pep.
  460. Guus Also, there are plenty of others that put in massive amounts of work - these emails just happened to catch my eye today. That's not to say all other work is equally appreciated.
  461. pep. I'm only using jonas’' scripts
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  614. dwd flow, Have you done anything in Smack for SASL2?
  615. flow dwd, nope, I have a major redesign of the connection mechanism to pave the way for ISR and the like ahead of me
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  620. dwd flow, Oh? Any timeframe?
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  626. flow the classical "when it's done", i have already forked a branch and did some thinkering. It's a high priority item of my does-not-pay-the-bills todo list. But SASL2 is a subsequent job, and I still don't like that SASL2 and Bind2 are unnecessarly coupled
  627. flow dwd, it sure would speed up the implementation if I implement do SASL2 without Bind2 and vice versa
  628. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0078.html but not a weird iq-like thing!
  629. dwd I didn't think Bind2 was coupled with SASL2 currently.
  630. Zash Oh and did we figure out how security-related the normal SASL stream restart was?
  631. Zash And whether it's safe to get rid of it
  632. dwd Yeah. It's important if you have no TLS (or do not trust it) and you do have a SASL security layer.
  633. dwd Which basically nobody does. We could insist that we do a stream restart if and only if there's a security layer inserted by SASL, or something.
  634. Zash Or don't trust the XML parser (maybe it has its own buffering or somesuch)
  635. dwd I think that only matters with a security layer, again.
  636. flow > dwd> I didn't think Bind2 was coupled with SASL2 currently. that's great then, but please make it the other way around too
  637. dwd flow, Meaning?
  638. flow dwd, possible I am talking about stuff that did not (yet) went into the xep(s). do you remember the discussion for last year's summit?
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  640. dwd We talked a lot about a lot of stuff. (Hence the discussion in Council earlier). But yes, my overall thinking is that binding should end up as part of the SASL2 flow, because why not? Saves an RTT.
  641. flow dwd, that is fine, but if my memory serves me right, then I think it could be done optional
  642. flow I believe jonas’ aggreed with me, maybe he remembers more
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  644. flow IIRC it was just a minor thing, like the placement of an element as child vs sibling, that would make a huge difference
  645. flow skimming over the xeps doesn't help me to recall what it was exactly, and potentially we discussed at the summit stuff that is not yet in the xeps
  646. flow dwd, sasl2 states "the main distinction is that initial-response data is held within an element", but isn't the initial response also within an element in sasl1?
  647. flow and what's the benefit of "A SASL2 success always includes the authorization identifier"? Don't you learn that also when binding?
  648. flow maybe return the authentication identity here, and not the authorization identity?
  649. dwd The initial response is bare within the authenticate element, whereas it's in a child element in SASL2 so we can add other stuff there.
  650. dwd And yes, you do learn the authzid in bind, but it's nice to have it sooner (especially if you need it for something else).
  651. dwd The authcid isn't always a string (for TLS/X.509/EXTERNAL it's the certificate).
  652. flow true
  653. Zash Oh, that's a thing for IBR2 to deal with too
  654. flow not sure about the "it's nice to have it sooner part"
  655. Zash Funky cases where sasl username ≠ jid localpart
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  657. flow otoh, if bind2 only returns the resourcepart, then it's probably a good idea to return the jid in sasl2
  658. Zash Or! Stream restart and the server gives you a JID in the stream header
  659. Zash No need to bind at all
  660. Zash And yes you may remember that I'm against imbuing resources with semantics
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  665. flow but it appears that bind2 returns the full jid, and hence if you use sasl2+bind2 the sasl2 <success/> nonza will contain redundant information and waste bandwith. terrible!
  666. flow (just kidding)
  667. Zash Or TLS client certificate auth with resource in it, instant ready to use session!
  668. flow session in a can
  669. flow dwd, I am still confused about "the main distinction is that initial-response data is held within an element, so the "=" special case no longer applies.", in sasl1 the initial response data is also the textual content of an element and here we have the '=' special case
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  671. flow ahh, now I get it, if <initial-response/> is non existent then there is no data
  672. flow if it carries the empty string, then the initial response data is zero-length
  673. flow ok, time to go to bed
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  676. dwd Zash, What if the TLS cert had an ISR token in it?
  677. Zash What if?
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  679. Zash And when do we get encrypted ClientHellos so all those TLS client cert things become realistic and not privacy nightmares?
  680. dwd Don't we already have those in TLS1.3?
  681. Zash Or what about them password based TLS key things?
  682. Zash dwd, nope
  683. Zash Didn't Big Cloud get those deferred until .. soon I hope?
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  686. Zash Cloudflare says they have it. But does that mean only if I use their DNS over HTTPS thing?
  687. Zash It as in Encrypted SNI. But what about other ClientHello bits, like client certificates or whatever
  688. Zash Ah, yeah, ESNI is only enabled with DoH. D'oh!
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  693. moparisthebest Yea and esni doesn't protect ALPN either
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