XSF Discussion - 2020-01-05

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  16. pep. > on a more general point of view, I don't see the point of having this configuration field mandatory or set at all by default. We don't have such thing for mam. I'm also curious if something like this can be done.
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  44. Zash edhelas: You can discover node configuration defaults like this: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#owner-default
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  51. Zash Why don't we use XEP-0122 ranges to advertise the accepted range? I.e. <field type="text-single" var="pubsub#max_items" label="Max # of items to persist"> <validate xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/xdata-validate" datatype="xs:integer"> <range min="0" max="255"/> </validate> <value>1</value> </field>
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  183. lovetox hm it does not matter what the XEP says, it will never be able to prevent that clients change that settings
  184. lovetox and i thought we have fixed it already
  185. lovetox there is now a setting for unlimited which was not previously
  186. lovetox so now that there is "unlimited" there is no need for clients to set it anymore, except they want it limited intentionally like for PEP nodes
  187. lovetox or even better they set it all to unlimited in there publish options
  188. lovetox or even better they set it all to unlimited in their publish options
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  191. lovetox its not clear to me how a client that is like movim and allows to publish microblog content would set the node to max_items=1
  192. lovetox that must be clearly a bug as it makes no sense
  193. lovetox the max_items is a per node setting
  194. lovetox so a client that does not support microblogging will *never* change anything on the microblogging node
  195. lovetox it does not matter if it sets max_items for all other nodes, like omemo, tune, activity etc
  196. lovetox so i dont see a problem their
  197. lovetox in the microblogging case there is also no need for discovery of max_items, the only thing the server must support is max_items="max"
  198. lovetox and if it supports it you will see if you put it in the publish options and it does not fail
  199. MattJ Agree, that all makes sense
  200. MattJ max_items is very useful in some cases
  201. MattJ Not usually in microblogging, sure
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  203. lovetox previously without "max" setting for max_items, it was a problem, because on node creation you had to make sure as client the node exists with good defaults, so you put in some number for max_items, of course other clients needed to do this also, but they didnt put in the same number
  204. lovetox and you didnt even know what number to put their, what the server supports and what not
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  247. pep. > its not clear to me how a client that is like movim and allows to publish microblog content would set the node to max_items=1 > that must be clearly a bug as it makes no sense I don't think Movim ever did that. There was a gajim bug though at some point that would reset microblog's max_items to 1 :p
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  252. pep. Also "max" doesn't seem to get much love from people from what I can see
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  261. Zash A rushed hack IMO
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  265. Daniel I think the fastening / mam summary debate brings an inner conflict between smart servers and dumb message routing servers to the surface that has been boiling for years now. It's super hard (I'm afraid impossible) to have smart servers in a generic form
  266. pep. If you agree there's a need for such a feature maybe that can be fixed
  267. pep. Zash ^
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  270. pep. (It's not like anybody was using it already)
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  300. lovetox how is this a rushed hack?
  301. lovetox i dont see another solution, and i heard not of any argument why max_items=max does not what it intends to do
  302. lovetox pep., why would you say it gets no love from people?
  303. lovetox because its not implemented instantly?
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  305. lovetox its only needed for very few cases right now in xmpp
  306. lovetox bookmarks2 and mircoblogging
  307. lovetox thats it
  308. MattJ lovetox, the main complaint we have is shoving a text string into a field that was previously an integer
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  312. lovetox ok but that has nothing to do with the intention of the feature
  313. MattJ Sure, no, I agree with the intent
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  315. lovetox yeah -1 would maybe be better
  316. lovetox but i have no experience how much problems that generate on the server side if its now a string/int
  317. lovetox i know at client level i dont care
  318. lovetox hm actually ...
  319. MattJ It depends on the server
  320. lovetox what if we put that into a form like a node config
  321. lovetox but we only have text fields there
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  323. MattJ In previous versions of Prosody it would have been ok, we had custom validation code everywhere and we could have tweaked that to be even more custom
  324. lovetox there are no int / number fields
  325. lovetox so it does not care either
  326. MattJ But we cleaned up the custom stuff and implemented standard validation of fields where it made sense
  327. MattJ But there is no standard data type for "sometime int, sometimes a string 'max'"
  328. lovetox no but its always a string isnt it
  329. lovetox you have to take the string, and convert it to an int
  330. lovetox and this works or it doesnt
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  332. MattJ Correct, so it must be something convertible to an int
  333. lovetox and if it doesnt, you test if its "max"
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  335. MattJ Sure, as I said, we can litter the code with custom hacks like that
  336. MattJ But we try not to
  337. lovetox yeah i see how a generic validation code cant handle that
  338. lovetox its not even int/string is allowed
  339. lovetox its int and one single string is allowed
  340. MattJ and I'll bet this isn't the only option where this feature makes sense
  341. MattJ It's just the one that is being focused on right now
  342. lovetox the proposal from Daniel was actually some unicode char, then this was discussed and it was changed to max
  343. lovetox i dont know if -1 came up in the discussion
  344. MattJ -1 would have been fine with me from an implementation perspective
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  346. MattJ From a protocol perspective it would probably be cleaner to define a type xmpp:integer-or-max or something at https://xmpp.org/registrar/xdv-datatypes.html
  347. MattJ which can still be done
  348. MattJ But I have been working on other things
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  352. MattJ Also I don't think this allows the client to actually discover the limit, does it? Zash's proposal does
  353. MattJ Even if the client can't do anything about the server limit, it might be good to inform the user that posting a new post will remove the old one
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  356. MattJ We might also want an option to disable that behaviour (reject the new item if the node is full instead)
  357. pep. yeah the form thing above looks nice
  358. pep. That forces the client to fetch the config though (kinda moot for publish-options no?)
  359. MattJ Yeah, maybe
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  364. Zash integer-or-max (throw in "min" too for good measure) would be fine
  365. Zash also, limits could be advertised somewhere, like the limit on http upload size
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  368. pep. in disco?
  369. Zash A form in disco#info at your account seems appropriate
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  415. lovetox i would expect the server to reject it
  416. lovetox and not silently start deleting stuff
  417. MattJ That means PEP will be permanently broken :)
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  419. MattJ unless you issue a delete before every publish
  420. MattJ tune change == delete old tune, publish new tune
  421. lovetox no, it should only reject new items
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  423. lovetox it should allow overwriting existing
  424. lovetox thats why everyone should use a SingletonNode
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  426. lovetox so max_items should actually mean, max different ids
  427. lovetox so a server rejecting all new ids except the existing one
  428. MattJ I'd be happy with that
  429. MattJ There are still many use-cases where deleting the oldest item does make sense
  430. MattJ But I think it needs to be configurable
  431. lovetox is this written in the xep that the server has to delete old items when max_items=1?
  432. lovetox or is it not defined
  433. MattJ > Note: If the service or node is configured so that there is a maximum number of items cached at the node and the maximum is reached when an item is published, the service MUST delete one of the existing items. It is RECOMMENDED for the service to follow the "first in, first out" rule and delete the oldest item. Depending on node configuration, deletion of an existing item MAY result in sending of a delete notification to the subscribers.
  434. MattJ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#publisher-publish-success
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  436. lovetox ok damn ..
  437. MattJ So we COULD delete a random item :D
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  439. Zash We're using a publish-subscribe mechanism for storage. It's weird.
  440. MattJ Zash, it's more a key->value database with change notifications
  441. Zash We've turned it into that, yes.
  442. MattJ XEP-0060 made sense when I realised that
  443. MattJ No, I think it always has been
  444. lovetox find it weird that FIFO behavior is the default case in pubsub
  445. MattJ At least since 2003
  446. lovetox would expect this as a special config of the node
  447. MattJ I agree that it should be, especially for all the things we are using it for today
  448. Zash Still, storing things at all is optional
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  450. MattJ Quietly deleting user data is not ideal
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  452. lovetox i would argue for a microblogging service this is a no-go
  453. lovetox even on "max" server would delete user data once it reaches the max
  454. MattJ Yep
  455. lovetox so there is actually no possibility right now in pubsub to retain userdata
  456. lovetox so its a very bad storage
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  458. lovetox hm does MIX not use pubsub as storage?
  459. Zash nothing prevents you from implementing pubsub/pep that keeps everything forever
  460. Zash same with MAM
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  463. lovetox Zash you mean making a server that has no max
  464. lovetox yes
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