XSF Discussion - 2020-01-05

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  16. pep.

    > on a more general point of view, I don't see the point of having this configuration field mandatory or set at all by default. We don't have such thing for mam. I'm also curious if something like this can be done.

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  44. Zash

    edhelas: You can discover node configuration defaults like this: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#owner-default

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  51. Zash

    Why don't we use XEP-0122 ranges to advertise the accepted range? I.e. <field type="text-single" var="pubsub#max_items" label="Max # of items to persist"> <validate xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/xdata-validate" datatype="xs:integer"> <range min="0" max="255"/> </validate> <value>1</value> </field>

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  183. lovetox

    hm it does not matter what the XEP says, it will never be able to prevent that clients change that settings

  184. lovetox

    and i thought we have fixed it already

  185. lovetox

    there is now a setting for unlimited which was not previously

  186. lovetox

    so now that there is "unlimited" there is no need for clients to set it anymore, except they want it limited intentionally like for PEP nodes

  187. lovetox

    or even better they set it all to unlimited in there publish options

  188. lovetox

    or even better they set it all to unlimited in their publish options

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  191. lovetox

    its not clear to me how a client that is like movim and allows to publish microblog content would set the node to max_items=1

  192. lovetox

    that must be clearly a bug as it makes no sense

  193. lovetox

    the max_items is a per node setting

  194. lovetox

    so a client that does not support microblogging will *never* change anything on the microblogging node

  195. lovetox

    it does not matter if it sets max_items for all other nodes, like omemo, tune, activity etc

  196. lovetox

    so i dont see a problem their

  197. lovetox

    in the microblogging case there is also no need for discovery of max_items, the only thing the server must support is max_items="max"

  198. lovetox

    and if it supports it you will see if you put it in the publish options and it does not fail

  199. MattJ

    Agree, that all makes sense

  200. MattJ

    max_items is very useful in some cases

  201. MattJ

    Not usually in microblogging, sure

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  203. lovetox

    previously without "max" setting for max_items, it was a problem, because on node creation you had to make sure as client the node exists with good defaults, so you put in some number for max_items, of course other clients needed to do this also, but they didnt put in the same number

  204. lovetox

    and you didnt even know what number to put their, what the server supports and what not

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  247. pep.

    > its not clear to me how a client that is like movim and allows to publish microblog content would set the node to max_items=1 > that must be clearly a bug as it makes no sense I don't think Movim ever did that. There was a gajim bug though at some point that would reset microblog's max_items to 1 :p

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  252. pep.

    Also "max" doesn't seem to get much love from people from what I can see

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  261. Zash

    A rushed hack IMO

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  265. Daniel

    I think the fastening / mam summary debate brings an inner conflict between smart servers and dumb message routing servers to the surface that has been boiling for years now. It's super hard (I'm afraid impossible) to have smart servers in a generic form

  266. pep.

    If you agree there's a need for such a feature maybe that can be fixed

  267. pep.

    Zash ^

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  270. pep.

    (It's not like anybody was using it already)

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  300. lovetox

    how is this a rushed hack?

  301. lovetox

    i dont see another solution, and i heard not of any argument why max_items=max does not what it intends to do

  302. lovetox

    pep., why would you say it gets no love from people?

  303. lovetox

    because its not implemented instantly?

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  305. lovetox

    its only needed for very few cases right now in xmpp

  306. lovetox

    bookmarks2 and mircoblogging

  307. lovetox

    thats it

  308. MattJ

    lovetox, the main complaint we have is shoving a text string into a field that was previously an integer

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  312. lovetox

    ok but that has nothing to do with the intention of the feature

  313. MattJ

    Sure, no, I agree with the intent

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  315. lovetox

    yeah -1 would maybe be better

  316. lovetox

    but i have no experience how much problems that generate on the server side if its now a string/int

  317. lovetox

    i know at client level i dont care

  318. lovetox

    hm actually ...

  319. MattJ

    It depends on the server

  320. lovetox

    what if we put that into a form like a node config

  321. lovetox

    but we only have text fields there

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  323. MattJ

    In previous versions of Prosody it would have been ok, we had custom validation code everywhere and we could have tweaked that to be even more custom

  324. lovetox

    there are no int / number fields

  325. lovetox

    so it does not care either

  326. MattJ

    But we cleaned up the custom stuff and implemented standard validation of fields where it made sense

  327. MattJ

    But there is no standard data type for "sometime int, sometimes a string 'max'"

  328. lovetox

    no but its always a string isnt it

  329. lovetox

    you have to take the string, and convert it to an int

  330. lovetox

    and this works or it doesnt

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  332. MattJ

    Correct, so it must be something convertible to an int

  333. lovetox

    and if it doesnt, you test if its "max"

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  335. MattJ

    Sure, as I said, we can litter the code with custom hacks like that

  336. MattJ

    But we try not to

  337. lovetox

    yeah i see how a generic validation code cant handle that

  338. lovetox

    its not even int/string is allowed

  339. lovetox

    its int and one single string is allowed

  340. MattJ

    and I'll bet this isn't the only option where this feature makes sense

  341. MattJ

    It's just the one that is being focused on right now

  342. lovetox

    the proposal from Daniel was actually some unicode char, then this was discussed and it was changed to max

  343. lovetox

    i dont know if -1 came up in the discussion

  344. MattJ

    -1 would have been fine with me from an implementation perspective

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  346. MattJ

    From a protocol perspective it would probably be cleaner to define a type xmpp:integer-or-max or something at https://xmpp.org/registrar/xdv-datatypes.html

  347. MattJ

    which can still be done

  348. MattJ

    But I have been working on other things

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  352. MattJ

    Also I don't think this allows the client to actually discover the limit, does it? Zash's proposal does

  353. MattJ

    Even if the client can't do anything about the server limit, it might be good to inform the user that posting a new post will remove the old one

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  356. MattJ

    We might also want an option to disable that behaviour (reject the new item if the node is full instead)

  357. pep.

    yeah the form thing above looks nice

  358. pep.

    That forces the client to fetch the config though (kinda moot for publish-options no?)

  359. MattJ

    Yeah, maybe

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  364. Zash

    integer-or-max (throw in "min" too for good measure) would be fine

  365. Zash

    also, limits could be advertised somewhere, like the limit on http upload size

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  368. pep.

    in disco?

  369. Zash

    A form in disco#info at your account seems appropriate

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  415. lovetox

    i would expect the server to reject it

  416. lovetox

    and not silently start deleting stuff

  417. MattJ

    That means PEP will be permanently broken :)

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  419. MattJ

    unless you issue a delete before every publish

  420. MattJ

    tune change == delete old tune, publish new tune

  421. lovetox

    no, it should only reject new items

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  423. lovetox

    it should allow overwriting existing

  424. lovetox

    thats why everyone should use a SingletonNode

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  426. lovetox

    so max_items should actually mean, max different ids

  427. lovetox

    so a server rejecting all new ids except the existing one

  428. MattJ

    I'd be happy with that

  429. MattJ

    There are still many use-cases where deleting the oldest item does make sense

  430. MattJ

    But I think it needs to be configurable

  431. lovetox

    is this written in the xep that the server has to delete old items when max_items=1?

  432. lovetox

    or is it not defined

  433. MattJ

    > Note: If the service or node is configured so that there is a maximum number of items cached at the node and the maximum is reached when an item is published, the service MUST delete one of the existing items. It is RECOMMENDED for the service to follow the "first in, first out" rule and delete the oldest item. Depending on node configuration, deletion of an existing item MAY result in sending of a delete notification to the subscribers.

  434. MattJ


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  436. lovetox

    ok damn ..

  437. MattJ

    So we COULD delete a random item :D

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  439. Zash

    We're using a publish-subscribe mechanism for storage. It's weird.

  440. MattJ

    Zash, it's more a key->value database with change notifications

  441. Zash

    We've turned it into that, yes.

  442. MattJ

    XEP-0060 made sense when I realised that

  443. MattJ

    No, I think it always has been

  444. lovetox

    find it weird that FIFO behavior is the default case in pubsub

  445. MattJ

    At least since 2003

  446. lovetox

    would expect this as a special config of the node

  447. MattJ

    I agree that it should be, especially for all the things we are using it for today

  448. Zash

    Still, storing things at all is optional

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  450. MattJ

    Quietly deleting user data is not ideal

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  452. lovetox

    i would argue for a microblogging service this is a no-go

  453. lovetox

    even on "max" server would delete user data once it reaches the max

  454. MattJ


  455. lovetox

    so there is actually no possibility right now in pubsub to retain userdata

  456. lovetox

    so its a very bad storage

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  458. lovetox

    hm does MIX not use pubsub as storage?

  459. Zash

    nothing prevents you from implementing pubsub/pep that keeps everything forever

  460. Zash

    same with MAM

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  463. lovetox

    Zash you mean making a server that has no max

  464. lovetox


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