XSF Discussion - 2020-01-12


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  125. jonas’ moparisthebest, Daniel just needs to vote "on-list"
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  168. Holger Ge0rG: XEP-0280 #6.1 now says: > A <message/> is is eligible for carbons [...] if [...] it contains payload elements typically used in IM ... and then mentions Delivery Receipts and CSN. I guess those two are meant to be examples rather than an exhaustive list? Then again, not having a definitive list might reduce the value of the guarantee #6.2 is trying to give for carbons:rules:0, no?
  169. Holger Apart from that, I guess this rule should mention that it still only applies to type={chat,normal}?
  170. Daniel we should really follow up on im routing 2
  171. jonas’ Daniel, implementations are where it’s at at the moment, I think
  172. Ge0rG Holger [12:22]: > ... and then mentions Delivery Receipts and CSN. I guess those two are meant to be examples rather than an exhaustive list? Then again, not having a definitive list might reduce the value of the guarantee #6.2 is trying to give for carbons:rules:0, no? You are right in those points. I'd love to have an exhaustive list of "IM payloads", but that means significant effort to compile it
  173. Ge0rG Holger [12:23]: > Apart from that, I guess this rule should mention that it still only applies to type={chat,normal}? I'm not 100% sure on that.
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  175. Daniel are there any known problems with im routing ng?
  176. dwd Daniel, No, although that's primary because nobody's tried to implement it yet AFAIK.
  177. jonas’ I think I sent some feedback to the list, not sure if that was addressed. but it’s all theoretical at the moment
  178. dwd Daniel, No, although that's primarily because nobody's tried to implement it yet AFAIK.
  179. Daniel it seems way easier than adding to an endless list of rules and exceptions to carbons
  180. Daniel or maybe i'm missing something…
  181. jonas’ it’s still a bit unclear how IM Routing 2.0 and non-2.0 domains interact
  182. Holger Ge0rG: I guess clients don't really want to receive carbons of outgoing 0184 receipts?
  183. jonas’ I’m not sure about that
  184. dwd Holger, They don't?
  185. Holger *requests*
  186. Holger Dammit.
  187. jonas’ ah, requests makes sense
  188. Holger Sorry.
  189. Daniel well requests are tied to actual messages?
  190. dwd Still not sure I understand.
  191. Holger Ah.
  192. Daniel and they are getting those anyway?
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  194. dwd (What Daniel says)
  195. Holger Yeah, ignore me, thx.
  196. dwd We could, of course, just drop a "<traditional-im xmlns='...' this-message-is-for-im='boolean/>" into every message.
  197. Daniel i'm not sure what i would do with copies of outgoing receipts though
  198. Daniel but in the interest of making things simplier on the server i'd just ignore them
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  201. Holger Yeah I can't think of a use-case either but I'd prefer to avoid even more special-casing unless there's a strong reason to do so.
  202. Ge0rG Daniel: copies of outgoing receipts tell you that you don't need to send a receipt any more
  203. Holger Ge0rG: You're not sure whether type={chat,normal} needs mentioning or whether the rule should only apply to those? Dunno about headline but you certainly don't want to apply the rule to groupchat, no?
  204. Ge0rG Daniel: I'm using that in MAM sync to reduce the number of receipts to send after sync
  205. Ge0rG Holger: message types are a mess
  206. Ge0rG Holger: I agree on groupchat though, and I suppose we need to make headline ephemeral+no-store
  207. Daniel > it’s still a bit unclear how IM Routing 2.0 and non-2.0 domains interact Maybe routing ng needs to honor no-copy and maybe private (the latter would be weird). Other than that I don't see any big interop problems
  208. Daniel Ge0rG: for mam agreed. Conversations will do that as well
  209. Daniel For live messages you will race anyway
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  211. Ge0rG Daniel: yeah, can't do anything about that
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  213. Ge0rG Except maybe on 0198 resume
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  215. Daniel I think I might even have code for sm resume. But meh
  216. dwd Could it be that IM Routing 2.0 is just a tidied-up Carbons without the cCarbon wrapping?
  217. Daniel I wouldn't optimize for that
  218. Daniel dwd: yes. That's why writing clients and servers should be fairly easy
  219. Daniel Recycle existing code and get rid of the rule mess
  220. Daniel Unless I'm missing something major
  221. Daniel Plus it always reflects
  222. Ge0rG dwd: we still might need the wrapping for outgoing Carbons
  223. Daniel Which is a good thing imho
  224. Ge0rG OTOH, we don't get that in MAM
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  227. dwd I don't think you can do without wrapping of some kind for reflection, can you?
  228. Daniel If you require clients to include origin ids you could
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  231. Ge0rG Daniel: what for?
  232. Daniel If you wanted to optimize things further you could have the reflection strip out everything but the origin id and the server added elements
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  234. Daniel Ge0rG: to identify a reflection
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  236. Ge0rG You can identify a reflection on from being your JID and to being a different JID
  237. Ge0rG Daniel: just use message @id for that?
  238. Daniel That could also be a message from another client
  239. Daniel Ge0rG: same same
  240. Daniel (but different unique Ness properties)
  241. Ge0rG Daniel: your reflection will have your full JID as the from
  242. Ge0rG Daniel: we can finally fix @id uniqueness for IM 2.0
  243. Daniel (but then again im routing could also require uniqueness)
  244. Daniel Ge0rG: will it?
  245. Ge0rG Daniel: what else should be the from?
  246. Daniel Not saying should. But it could be the bare jid
  247. Daniel In any case I think the story is that we can make that work without wrapper
  248. Ge0rG I mean we can just embed everything into forwarded, but why?
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  256. Holger What about (direct) MUC invitations? Carbon-copy only incoming?
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  261. Ge0rG Holger: do invitations to self count as incoming?
  262. Holger Yes.
  263. Ge0rG Sounds good then
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  274. jonas’ FWIW, the IM-NG discussion also brought up the notion that full-jid messages are ephemeral (non-archived) by default, while bare jid messages are persistent (archived) by default
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  276. eevvoor Ge0rG, any comments on the proposal? We submit it tonight.
  277. eevvoor plus flow and DebXWoody
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  279. eevvoor Thanks to emus, everyone found your idea for inviting an AI-expert to the XMPP-Sprint extremely good. So we added that.
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  281. jonas’ AI-expert?
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  284. eevvoor We will hand in a research proposal tonight with some AI stuff. So emus idea was to add that to the planned XMPP-sprint to. jonas’
  285. jonas’ what kind of AI stuff?
  286. eevvoor I can send you the proposal in case you are interested,
  287. jonas’ I’d like a two-line summary instead
  288. eevvoor It is machine translation and language learning with XMPP clients.
  289. jonas’ ok, thanks
  290. eevvoor oneliner ;-P
  291. emus Many scucess for your proposal!
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  322. eevvoor Thank you very much :).
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  324. eevvoor Thank you very much :). emus
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  366. neshtaxmpp mpparisbest
  367. neshtaxmpp do you know something new sslh.
  368. neshtaxmpp https://wiki.mattrude.com/SRV_records_for_XMPP_over_TLS is thia gonna gelp
  369. Daniel help for what?
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  377. neshtaxmpp ssh show localhost in apache
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  409. moparisthebest neshtaxmpp: the only thing I'm gonna say about it is the option you are looking for is https://github.com/yrutschle/sslh/blob/master/doc/config.md#transparent-proxy-support and there are great docs there
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  411. neshtaxmpp moparisthebest: again the same ?
  412. moparisthebest It's the only thing to say so yes
  413. neshtaxmpp maybe we didnt sprak woth you from 1 year... and the same old depreceated doculentations that lie.
  414. neshtaxmpp ri tbink to try tgis: https://wiki.mattrude.com/SRV_records_for_XMPP_over_TLS
  415. neshtaxmpp is ot gonna sgow real ip ?
  416. moparisthebest The official docs are correct, I'm not going to review some other docs for correctness
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  427. neshtaxmpp moparisthebest: the old are incorrect. they dont show how to 127. can be solved...
  428. moparisthebest Nope they are up to date and you are wrong, now seriously I'm not discussing it anymore
  429. neshtaxmpp i speak woth developer and he comment use iptables... it is danger... as newbies... dont want touch it
  430. neshtaxmpp moparisthebest: you are wrong. if im writing you again ot is becouae. 127 ia not solved.
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  457. moparisthebest neshtaxmpp: wait lol did you just say you talked to the dev who said you must use iptables but don't want to use iptables? Hahaha
  458. moparisthebest You have to if you want it to work, just like the docs I linked say, it works and I know it because it works on my machine
  459. pep. (that's usually not the only sign to look for proof of work though, but nvm :p)
  460. moparisthebest Yes well everyone else's machines also who follows the simple instructions :)
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  462. moparisthebest Not people who go "but I want to skip parts and have it still work" though
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  482. neshtaxmpp moparisthebest: you are wrong, now seriously I'm not discussing it anymore
  483. moparisthebest Excellent
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