XSF Discussion - 2020-01-14

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  6. moparisthebest

    is members@ missing from https://xmpp.org/community/mailing-lists.html on purpose? there does appear to be public archives anyway https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/

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  10. Neustradamus

    moparisthebest: only for members

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  37. stpeter

    The members@ archives are public.

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  101. jonas’

    pep., agreed, members@ would also work for me

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  108. Seve

    Hello pep. :D I've been on holidays and also sick, still recovering, I haven't been able to follow what's going on, will try to catch up on the following days after I get better

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  110. pep.

    Seve: ! :)

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  113. Seve

    Also my phone broke, so it is even harder to keep up to date... Sorry about this!

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  128. dwd

    If you look very closely this is partly about XMPP: https://www.ncia.nato.int/NewsRoom/Pages/20191106-Connecting-the-Dots-The-High-North.aspx

  129. jonas’

    of course not mentioning it with a single letter

  130. dwd

    Of course not. But it says "chat", which is NATO-ese for XMPP.

  131. jonas’


  132. jonas’

    over STANAG? :)

  133. dwd

    I can't tell. It mentions "wideband high-frequency", which would be STANAG 5066, though NATO are here talking about a common IP bearer, which means no XEP-0365.

  134. pep.

    XEP-0001 §1 "The XSF's standards process can be outlined informally as follows: [..] 2. [..] and agrees to transfer ownership over the protocol [..]", is "over" a typo here?

  135. pep.

    Should be "of"?

  136. dwd

    jonas’, Also "Over STANAG" is like saying "Over RFC". :-)

  137. dwd

    pep., No, "over" is fine. You can have "ownership over X".

  138. pep.

    ah ok

  139. pep.

    Maybe we should mandate Simple English in our specs :)

  140. Ge0rG

    > released a business opportunity for bidding that wording is very freaky

  141. Guus

    If you look very closely, you can find an XMPP reference on a whiteboard somewhere on these pictures: https://www.act.nato.int/cwix

  142. jonas’

    dwd, sorry, I’m from a part of the amateur radio community, where STANAG generally refers to some HF thing the NATO uses for communications over radio, which I assume is STANAG 5066. TIL, thanks.

  143. jonas’

    dwd, sorry, I’m from a part of the amateur radio community where STANAG generally refers to some HF thing the NATO uses for communications over radio, which I assume is STANAG 5066. TIL, thanks.

  144. dwd

    Ge0rG, Well, yes, NATO is terrifyingly bureaucratic. If you've done any government bidding, just imagine bidding for 28 governments simulataneously and you're about right.

  145. dwd

    jonas’, Ah, I vaguely knew there was some use of S'5066 in ham, but didn't realise it was quite that well known.

  146. Ge0rG

    dwd: yeah, that comes on top. But "to release a business opportunity" is just weird turbo capitalism speak

  147. dwd

    Ge0rG, Oh, yes. It's a little bubble.

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  168. jonas’

    dwd, let’s say that was a rather specific corner

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  282. Guus

    Would it hurt to have some content served on the URLs that match the namespaces that are defined in our registrar, where applicable? I think I've just received a request to remove namespaces from Openfire, since the links are broken anyway. I'd prefer to not have the discussion that I'm going to have more often, in the future.

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  286. Guus

    I'm wondering if any content that's being served without a HTTP error that's not a schema will break / confuse tooling.

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  290. pep.

    The discussion? That is "Please inform yourself about what a namespace is"?

  291. Ge0rG

    Guus: that sounds like another request to fix our registry

  292. pep.

    It's not about the registry from what I understand

  293. pep.

    It's about people not knowing that a namespace doesn't have to resolve

  294. pep.


  295. Guus


  296. Guus

    Basically: can we have non-error content at URLs like https://www.jabber.org/protocol/geoloc

  297. Daniel

    14 year old me was slightly confused about the urls not resolving as well. But I don't think that making the urls resolve would have helped my understanding

  298. Daniel

    If anything it would have made it more confusing maybe

  299. Guus

    No, but it prevents me having awkward conversations with customers.

  300. Kev

    I suspect that them not resolving actually helps rather than hinders, in this case.

  301. Kev

    Because it forces understanding, rather than ploughing ahead on a basis of being ignorant about one's ignorance :)

  302. Guus

    maybe a redirect to https://xmpp.org/registrar/namespaces.html ?

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  304. Daniel

    > Because it forces understanding, rather than ploughing ahead on a basis of being ignorant about one's ignorance :) 👍

  305. Kev

    Guus: A redirect to namespaces might not be daft, though, yeah.

  306. flow

    Guus, I'd love to see namespaces of XEPs being URLs that point to the related version of the xep

  307. Kev

    flow: I see the appeal in that. I'm worried it would add confusion (see ignorant ignorance comment) from those not 'in the know'. But I'm certainly not high-F against the idea.

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  309. MattJ

    I'm pretty sure they used to redirect (a very long time ago)

  310. Guus

    I'm not disagreeing with you all here - and there's something to be said for it, but I really don't want to fight this battle with everyone 🙂

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  312. Guus

    I'm looking for a path of least resistance here 🙂

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  314. Guus

    read: "Guus is chickening out"

  315. Guus

    "everyone" being the one customer that comes up with this in the past 5 years or so

  316. Guus

    (but for everyone that asks a question, 10 others wonder, but don't bother to ask)

  317. flow

    Kev, I do not follow the "ignorant ignorance" comment. Could you rephrase it for me? I don't see how namespace values pointing to the document declaring and defining that protocol used by those values can be anything but a big win

  318. Kev

    flow: If the URL doesn't point anywhere, people are forced to understand that the URL doesn't mean what people think it does. OTOH if we put URLs there for the http-based namespaces, are we going to have people thinking that they can shove the URL to random web pages in there? What about urn:xmpp stuff?

  319. Kev

    I don't feel strongly about it, but I suspect anything we do will lead to confusion by someone.

  320. pep.

    Guus, also note that this happens only for namespaces that happen to be http.

  321. Guus

    pep. I am painfully, painfully aware...

  322. pep.

    And hmm, the XSF has an http -> https redirection in place right

  323. flow

    Kev, I see, thanks

  324. dwd

    pep., See XEP-0419 §3.1 : https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0419.html#sect-idm46603442987040

  325. pep.


  326. pep.


  327. Holger

    Won't the uninformed think "oh the URL has died? (no wonder, Jabber is dying)" rather than "oh it points nowhere, must be just a namespace"?

  328. pep.

    ah, 419.

  329. Guus

    Context is: Ge0rG and dwd having fun.

  330. Kev

    Holger: Also possible.

  331. pep.

    dwd, yeah not what I'm saying.

  332. pep.

    Just saying confused customer gonna be confused

  333. Guus

    Still, serving a redirect to the registrar wouldn't be the worst idea?

  334. pep.

    The XSF doesn't have control over jabber.org though

  335. Guus

    it'd also have the benefit of what Flow proposes, although indirectly: a reference to the corresponding XEPs.

  336. Guus

    (without the downside that the URLs are added to documentation as Kev suggested, as they'd point to a generic landing page)

  337. Guus

    pep. I'm pretty sure we can approach the friendly sysops for jabber.org to make this change, if we want it.

  338. Kev

    I think Guus's suggestion is sound. The XSF doesn't have control over jabber.org, but this seems like something Peter isn't going to say 'no' to.

  339. pep.

    Guus, You mean just like we approached them to update their servers a while ago? :p

  340. Kev

    I suspect, anyway. I've been somewhat sidelined from recent jabber.org decisions.

  341. Guus

    pep. that's not helpful.

  342. pep.

    It is what it is

  343. Guus

    no-one here is very much opposed to this then?

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  345. Kev

    I'm not.

  346. pep.

    I won't oppose that for sure. Not really in favor either

  347. Guus

    good enough for me 🙂

  348. Guus

    I'll poke some of the volunteers at jabber.org.

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  360. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy.html I just realized there are two §3.3

  361. edhelas

    a glitch in the Matrix ?

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  363. pep.

    (pushed a fix)

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  366. intosi

    The redirect is in place.

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  380. Guus

    Thanks intosi !

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  383. jjrh

    So NATO uses xmpp for their chat?

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  388. Kev

    https://xmpp.org/about/faq.html says so :)

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  391. Kev

    For tactical chat, anyway, which doesn't imply all chat.

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  398. mukt2

    > For tactical chat, anyway, which doesn't imply all chat. What could be the reason for using it in tactical chat?

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  400. jjrh

    That's pretty nifty, I knew there was a chat product targeted at the military, but didn't realize it was a NATO thing.

  401. Kev

    Federation, open standards, good story for security labeling/rbac, constrained bandwidth.

  402. lovetox

    mukt2, they probably didnt select XMPP

  403. lovetox

    they have a contractor who offers a piece of software that does what NATO specified

  404. lovetox

    and this contractor uses XMPP

  405. Kev

    lovetox: That is not the case :)

  406. jjrh

    Is there a source/reference to this claim? (not disputing it, only curious to know more)

  407. lovetox

    no? NATO has an IT dep that writes all the software themself? doubt it

  408. jonas’

    lovetox, there’s a wide range of options between that

  409. jonas’

    they could for example have made a survey of open chat standards and made a bidding for a contractor which can deliver that

  410. lovetox

    not really, either you write it yourself, or you write user requirements and let it write someone else

  411. jonas’

    XMPP could’ve been part of the requirements

  412. lovetox

    yeah, fair could be

  413. Kev

    jonas’: (And is)

  414. lovetox

    then the answer is obvious, probably because it is open and a standard

  415. lovetox

    and is there really an alternative?

  416. dwd

    The last NATO bid I was part of was explicitly requiring XMPP, since that was an existing deployed and federated standard.

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  418. Kev

    But as I mentioned above, XMPP has more going for it for that community than *just* being an open standard. It's an open standard that has desirable properties.

  419. dwd

    That was a looong time ago, but nothing's changed since.

  420. dwd

    jjrh, FWIW, it's awkward because it's very difficult to know what *can* be discussed openly (some of it certainly is classified) and what people *want* to be discussed openly, which is somewhat different. Often organisations like NATO default to assuming everything is not to be discussed.

  421. dwd

    jjrh, But if you search for "NATO XMPP" on a popular search engine of your choice, you'll very likely find things, and the Google search suggestions might even give you pointers...

  422. jonas’

    > isode.com

  423. jonas’

    I’m not surprised ;)

  424. Kev

    That is a place you might end up.

  425. jonas’

    that’s the first two hits, then it’s xmpp.org

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  427. dwd

    Honestly, the Google search suggestions is the bigger hint.

  428. jonas’

    I get none for "nato xmpp" or "xmpp nato"

  429. jonas’


  430. dwd

    Oh, how disappointing.

  431. Kev

    dwd: Yeah, it's your history :)

  432. moparisthebest

    search bubble'd

  433. dwd

    I thought I'd checked on icognito.

  434. jjrh

    Half of my reason for asking for a source was that it would be useful to point to there from xmpp.org

  435. jjrh


  436. Kev

    All the stuff I'm finding using slightly more informed keywords is coming up behind walls, unfortunately.

  437. Kev

    So I'm not finding useful breadcrumbs either.

  438. jjrh

    "Basic Text-based Collaboration Chatroom Profile" lists xeps

  439. jonas’

    jjrh, we *did* have "Battle-tested" as part of the slogan on xmpp.org, but that was removed last year

  440. dwd

    That always did make me giggle.

  441. Zash


  442. jonas’


  443. jonas’

    github doesn’t show me the PR this belonged t

  444. jonas’

    github doesn’t show me the PR this belonged to

  445. pep.

    I'm not especially proud of NATO using XMPP fwiw, but I'll leave it at that

  446. Kev

    jonas’: "W. Martin Borgert" it says doesn't it?

  447. jonas’

    that doesn’t tell me which PR number this was

  448. MattJ

    It usually does :/

  449. jjrh

    proud isn't the right word, but it's a useful selling point to give people when they ask who's using XMPP.

  450. jonas’

    jjrh, depending who you’re talking to, really

  451. Kev

    jonas’: Sorry, misunderstood the point you were making.

  452. jonas’

    Kev, I recall that there was a brief discussion in the PR, and I wanted to link it

  453. jonas’

    but I can’t find it

  454. jonas’

    sometimes I hate github

  455. Guus

    "military grade" typically implies "of good quality".

  456. jjrh

    jonas’, of course, /some/ people. but regardless of how you feel about NATO/military it does imply a certain amount of robustness and flexibility

  457. jonas’

    jjrh, people are ready to ignore the implications in face of that

  458. jonas’

    Guus, to be honest, nowadays, military grade mainly implies marketing to me when it’s about IM

  459. jjrh

    jonas’, those people probably already got sold when you told them it's a IETF standard :)

  460. jonas’

    "military grad encryption!!!k"

  461. Daniel

    > proud isn't the right word, but it's a useful selling point to give people when they ask who's using XMPP. It's not just nato. It's also other government agencies. Lots of people 'who have something to hide'. But those people are never very chatty about that

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  465. Kev

    jonas’: As far as I can see, there was no PR here.

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  468. Guus

    jonas’ I can understand that if you read about something being advertised as 'military grade' without knowing if it's actually being used by the military. Apparently, for XMPP, it's the other way around.

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  470. jonas’

    Kev, I recall discussion on github, it must’ve been somewhere

  471. Kev

    Github might simply be lying to me.

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  475. moparisthebest

    XMPP can use AES, and we all know AES is "military grade" :)

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  481. mukt2

    > All the stuff I'm finding using slightly more informed keywords is coming up behind walls, unfortunately. > So I'm not finding useful breadcrumbs either. Maybe something open source must be written on the subject.

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  483. dwd

    Most of it is fairly dry, like: https://aplits.disa.mil/docs/UC-XMPP2013C1.pdf

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  528. dwd

    I know that there aren't many Windows users here, but there's a serious vulnerability in ECC in all versions of Windows, so make sure you're up on that.

  529. moparisthebest

    yep https://kb.cert.org/vuls/id/849224/ for more context

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  533. edhelas

    https://nl.movim.eu/?about#statistics_tab Gajim is quite high actually !

  534. Zash

    ECC bad. AES good. Something something :)

  535. moparisthebest

    you mean RSA but yea probably :)

  536. Zash

    Ref to the earlier "military grade" message ;)

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  545. Martin

    Is it just me or does no link in the xmpp.org header work without allowing scripts from ajax.googleapis.com?

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  550. jonas’

    it’s just you

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  563. Martin

    Oh, now it works.

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  612. tom


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  614. tom

    Why does it say XEP-0363 is still lastcall?

  615. tom


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  617. tom

    What is the status of XEP-0363 currently?

  618. jonas’

    tom, the status is that I need to re-issue the LC

  619. jonas’

    thanks for reminding me

  620. tom


  621. tom

    Thank you

  622. tom

    But just to be clear, it's still not considered 'stable' yet or is at the last stage until stable?

  623. jonas’

    please check the roadmap on the top right

  624. jonas’

    LC is the stage before Draft

  625. jonas’

    it is probably only not-draft for formal reasons and those should be resolved within the next month or so

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  627. tom

    Thanks for clarifying

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  630. jonas’

    sent a mail regarding that to standards@

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