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moparisthebest
is members@ missing from https://xmpp.org/community/mailing-lists.html on purpose? there does appear to be public archives anyway https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/
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Neustradamus
moparisthebest: only for members
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stpeter
The members@ archives are public.
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jonas’
pep., agreed, members@ would also work for me
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Seve
Hello pep. :D I've been on holidays and also sick, still recovering, I haven't been able to follow what's going on, will try to catch up on the following days after I get better
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pep.
Seve: ! :)
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Seve
Also my phone broke, so it is even harder to keep up to date... Sorry about this!
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dwd
If you look very closely this is partly about XMPP: https://www.ncia.nato.int/NewsRoom/Pages/20191106-Connecting-the-Dots-The-High-North.aspx
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jonas’
of course not mentioning it with a single letter
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dwd
Of course not. But it says "chat", which is NATO-ese for XMPP.
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jonas’
:D
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jonas’
over STANAG? :)
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dwd
I can't tell. It mentions "wideband high-frequency", which would be STANAG 5066, though NATO are here talking about a common IP bearer, which means no XEP-0365.
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pep.
XEP-0001 §1 "The XSF's standards process can be outlined informally as follows: [..] 2. [..] and agrees to transfer ownership over the protocol [..]", is "over" a typo here?
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pep.
Should be "of"?
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dwd
jonas’, Also "Over STANAG" is like saying "Over RFC". :-)
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dwd
pep., No, "over" is fine. You can have "ownership over X".
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pep.
ah ok
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pep.
Maybe we should mandate Simple English in our specs :)
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Ge0rG
> released a business opportunity for bidding that wording is very freaky
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Guus
If you look very closely, you can find an XMPP reference on a whiteboard somewhere on these pictures: https://www.act.nato.int/cwix
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jonas’
dwd, sorry, I’m from a part of the amateur radio community, where STANAG generally refers to some HF thing the NATO uses for communications over radio, which I assume is STANAG 5066. TIL, thanks.✎ -
jonas’
dwd, sorry, I’m from a part of the amateur radio community where STANAG generally refers to some HF thing the NATO uses for communications over radio, which I assume is STANAG 5066. TIL, thanks. ✏
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dwd
Ge0rG, Well, yes, NATO is terrifyingly bureaucratic. If you've done any government bidding, just imagine bidding for 28 governments simulataneously and you're about right.
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dwd
jonas’, Ah, I vaguely knew there was some use of S'5066 in ham, but didn't realise it was quite that well known.
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Ge0rG
dwd: yeah, that comes on top. But "to release a business opportunity" is just weird turbo capitalism speak
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dwd
Ge0rG, Oh, yes. It's a little bubble.
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jonas’
dwd, let’s say that was a rather specific corner
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Guus
Would it hurt to have some content served on the URLs that match the namespaces that are defined in our registrar, where applicable? I think I've just received a request to remove namespaces from Openfire, since the links are broken anyway. I'd prefer to not have the discussion that I'm going to have more often, in the future.
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Guus
I'm wondering if any content that's being served without a HTTP error that's not a schema will break / confuse tooling.
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pep.
The discussion? That is "Please inform yourself about what a namespace is"?
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Ge0rG
Guus: that sounds like another request to fix our registry
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pep.
It's not about the registry from what I understand
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pep.
It's about people not knowing that a namespace doesn't have to resolve
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pep.
right(?)
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Guus
Yes.
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Guus
Basically: can we have non-error content at URLs like https://www.jabber.org/protocol/geoloc
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Daniel
14 year old me was slightly confused about the urls not resolving as well. But I don't think that making the urls resolve would have helped my understanding
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Daniel
If anything it would have made it more confusing maybe
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Guus
No, but it prevents me having awkward conversations with customers.
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Kev
I suspect that them not resolving actually helps rather than hinders, in this case.
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Kev
Because it forces understanding, rather than ploughing ahead on a basis of being ignorant about one's ignorance :)
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Guus
maybe a redirect to https://xmpp.org/registrar/namespaces.html ?
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Daniel
> Because it forces understanding, rather than ploughing ahead on a basis of being ignorant about one's ignorance :) 👍
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Kev
Guus: A redirect to namespaces might not be daft, though, yeah.
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flow
Guus, I'd love to see namespaces of XEPs being URLs that point to the related version of the xep
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Kev
flow: I see the appeal in that. I'm worried it would add confusion (see ignorant ignorance comment) from those not 'in the know'. But I'm certainly not high-F against the idea.
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MattJ
I'm pretty sure they used to redirect (a very long time ago)
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Guus
I'm not disagreeing with you all here - and there's something to be said for it, but I really don't want to fight this battle with everyone 🙂
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Guus
I'm looking for a path of least resistance here 🙂
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Guus
read: "Guus is chickening out"
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Guus
"everyone" being the one customer that comes up with this in the past 5 years or so
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Guus
(but for everyone that asks a question, 10 others wonder, but don't bother to ask)
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flow
Kev, I do not follow the "ignorant ignorance" comment. Could you rephrase it for me? I don't see how namespace values pointing to the document declaring and defining that protocol used by those values can be anything but a big win
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Kev
flow: If the URL doesn't point anywhere, people are forced to understand that the URL doesn't mean what people think it does. OTOH if we put URLs there for the http-based namespaces, are we going to have people thinking that they can shove the URL to random web pages in there? What about urn:xmpp stuff?
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Kev
I don't feel strongly about it, but I suspect anything we do will lead to confusion by someone.
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pep.
Guus, also note that this happens only for namespaces that happen to be http.
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Guus
pep. I am painfully, painfully aware...
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pep.
And hmm, the XSF has an http -> https redirection in place right
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flow
Kev, I see, thanks
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dwd
pep., See XEP-0419 §3.1 : https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0419.html#sect-idm46603442987040
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pep.
contxt?✎ -
pep.
context? ✏
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Holger
Won't the uninformed think "oh the URL has died? (no wonder, Jabber is dying)" rather than "oh it points nowhere, must be just a namespace"?
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pep.
ah, 419.
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Guus
Context is: Ge0rG and dwd having fun.
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Kev
Holger: Also possible.
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pep.
dwd, yeah not what I'm saying.
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pep.
Just saying confused customer gonna be confused
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Guus
Still, serving a redirect to the registrar wouldn't be the worst idea?
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pep.
The XSF doesn't have control over jabber.org though
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Guus
it'd also have the benefit of what Flow proposes, although indirectly: a reference to the corresponding XEPs.
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Guus
(without the downside that the URLs are added to documentation as Kev suggested, as they'd point to a generic landing page)
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Guus
pep. I'm pretty sure we can approach the friendly sysops for jabber.org to make this change, if we want it.
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Kev
I think Guus's suggestion is sound. The XSF doesn't have control over jabber.org, but this seems like something Peter isn't going to say 'no' to.
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pep.
Guus, You mean just like we approached them to update their servers a while ago? :p
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Kev
I suspect, anyway. I've been somewhat sidelined from recent jabber.org decisions.
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Guus
pep. that's not helpful.
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pep.
It is what it is
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Guus
no-one here is very much opposed to this then?
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Kev
I'm not.
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pep.
I won't oppose that for sure. Not really in favor either
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Guus
good enough for me 🙂
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Guus
I'll poke some of the volunteers at jabber.org.
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pep.
https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy.html I just realized there are two §3.3
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edhelas
a glitch in the Matrix ?
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pep.
(pushed a fix)
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intosi
The redirect is in place.
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Guus
Thanks intosi !
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jjrh
So NATO uses xmpp for their chat?
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Kev
https://xmpp.org/about/faq.html says so :)
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Kev
For tactical chat, anyway, which doesn't imply all chat.
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mukt2
> For tactical chat, anyway, which doesn't imply all chat. What could be the reason for using it in tactical chat?
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jjrh
That's pretty nifty, I knew there was a chat product targeted at the military, but didn't realize it was a NATO thing.
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Kev
Federation, open standards, good story for security labeling/rbac, constrained bandwidth.
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lovetox
mukt2, they probably didnt select XMPP
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lovetox
they have a contractor who offers a piece of software that does what NATO specified
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lovetox
and this contractor uses XMPP
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Kev
lovetox: That is not the case :)
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jjrh
Is there a source/reference to this claim? (not disputing it, only curious to know more)
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lovetox
no? NATO has an IT dep that writes all the software themself? doubt it
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jonas’
lovetox, there’s a wide range of options between that
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jonas’
they could for example have made a survey of open chat standards and made a bidding for a contractor which can deliver that
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lovetox
not really, either you write it yourself, or you write user requirements and let it write someone else
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jonas’
XMPP could’ve been part of the requirements
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lovetox
yeah, fair could be
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Kev
jonas’: (And is)
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lovetox
then the answer is obvious, probably because it is open and a standard
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lovetox
and is there really an alternative?
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dwd
The last NATO bid I was part of was explicitly requiring XMPP, since that was an existing deployed and federated standard.
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Kev
But as I mentioned above, XMPP has more going for it for that community than *just* being an open standard. It's an open standard that has desirable properties.
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dwd
That was a looong time ago, but nothing's changed since.
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dwd
jjrh, FWIW, it's awkward because it's very difficult to know what *can* be discussed openly (some of it certainly is classified) and what people *want* to be discussed openly, which is somewhat different. Often organisations like NATO default to assuming everything is not to be discussed.
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dwd
jjrh, But if you search for "NATO XMPP" on a popular search engine of your choice, you'll very likely find things, and the Google search suggestions might even give you pointers...
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jonas’
> isode.com
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jonas’
I’m not surprised ;)
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Kev
That is a place you might end up.
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jonas’
that’s the first two hits, then it’s xmpp.org
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dwd
Honestly, the Google search suggestions is the bigger hint.
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jonas’
I get none for "nato xmpp" or "xmpp nato"
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jonas’
https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/y6MWvbJIbWJqEk7TWc0Ze6__bA2iuR8VVNhzGkumpEE.png
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dwd
Oh, how disappointing.
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Kev
dwd: Yeah, it's your history :)
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moparisthebest
search bubble'd
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dwd
I thought I'd checked on icognito.
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jjrh
Half of my reason for asking for a source was that it would be useful to point to there from xmpp.org
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jjrh
https://nhqc3s.hq.nato.int/Apps/Architecture/NISP2/cpbprf.aspx?vndb=standards&vsbn=n&refid=fmn2&sbbs=y
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Kev
All the stuff I'm finding using slightly more informed keywords is coming up behind walls, unfortunately.
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Kev
So I'm not finding useful breadcrumbs either.
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jjrh
"Basic Text-based Collaboration Chatroom Profile" lists xeps
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jonas’
jjrh, we *did* have "Battle-tested" as part of the slogan on xmpp.org, but that was removed last year
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dwd
That always did make me giggle.
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Zash
Why!
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jonas’
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/39455a69d97601b5af091261a892e170c7c2ef62
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jonas’
github doesn’t show me the PR this belonged t✎ -
jonas’
github doesn’t show me the PR this belonged to ✏
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pep.
I'm not especially proud of NATO using XMPP fwiw, but I'll leave it at that
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Kev
jonas’: "W. Martin Borgert" it says doesn't it?
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jonas’
that doesn’t tell me which PR number this was
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MattJ
It usually does :/
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jjrh
proud isn't the right word, but it's a useful selling point to give people when they ask who's using XMPP.
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jonas’
jjrh, depending who you’re talking to, really
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Kev
jonas’: Sorry, misunderstood the point you were making.
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jonas’
Kev, I recall that there was a brief discussion in the PR, and I wanted to link it
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jonas’
but I can’t find it
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jonas’
sometimes I hate github
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Guus
"military grade" typically implies "of good quality".
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jjrh
jonas’, of course, /some/ people. but regardless of how you feel about NATO/military it does imply a certain amount of robustness and flexibility
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jonas’
jjrh, people are ready to ignore the implications in face of that
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jonas’
Guus, to be honest, nowadays, military grade mainly implies marketing to me when it’s about IM
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jjrh
jonas’, those people probably already got sold when you told them it's a IETF standard :)
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jonas’
"military grad encryption!!!k"
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Daniel
> proud isn't the right word, but it's a useful selling point to give people when they ask who's using XMPP. It's not just nato. It's also other government agencies. Lots of people 'who have something to hide'. But those people are never very chatty about that
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Kev
jonas’: As far as I can see, there was no PR here.
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Guus
jonas’ I can understand that if you read about something being advertised as 'military grade' without knowing if it's actually being used by the military. Apparently, for XMPP, it's the other way around.
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jonas’
Kev, I recall discussion on github, it must’ve been somewhere
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Kev
Github might simply be lying to me.
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moparisthebest
XMPP can use AES, and we all know AES is "military grade" :)
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mukt2
> All the stuff I'm finding using slightly more informed keywords is coming up behind walls, unfortunately. > So I'm not finding useful breadcrumbs either. Maybe something open source must be written on the subject.
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dwd
Most of it is fairly dry, like: https://aplits.disa.mil/docs/UC-XMPP2013C1.pdf
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dwd
I know that there aren't many Windows users here, but there's a serious vulnerability in ECC in all versions of Windows, so make sure you're up on that.
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moparisthebest
yep https://kb.cert.org/vuls/id/849224/ for more context
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edhelas
https://nl.movim.eu/?about#statistics_tab Gajim is quite high actually !
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Zash
ECC bad. AES good. Something something :)
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moparisthebest
you mean RSA but yea probably :)
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Zash
Ref to the earlier "military grade" message ;)
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Martin
Is it just me or does no link in the xmpp.org header work without allowing scripts from ajax.googleapis.com?
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jonas’
it’s just you
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Martin
;-(
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Martin
Oh, now it works.
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tom
Hello,
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tom
Why does it say XEP-0363 is still lastcall?
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tom
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html
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tom
What is the status of XEP-0363 currently?
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jonas’
tom, the status is that I need to re-issue the LC
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jonas’
thanks for reminding me
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tom
Ok
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tom
Thank you
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tom
But just to be clear, it's still not considered 'stable' yet or is at the last stage until stable?
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jonas’
please check the roadmap on the top right
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jonas’
LC is the stage before Draft
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jonas’
it is probably only not-draft for formal reasons and those should be resolved within the next month or so
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tom
Thanks for clarifying
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jonas’
sent a mail regarding that to standards@