XSF Discussion - 2020-01-15

  1. nyco

    Help iTeam: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/667 is merged but is not published on https://xmpp.org/category/newsletter.html what did I do wrong?

  2. jonas’

    it’s not published to the blog either

  3. jonas’

    I don’t have my docker hub credentials with me, but if I’d have to take a guess, something went wrong during the build

  4. jonas’

    though hub claims everything is fine

  5. jonas’

    cc @ iteam then

  6. jonas’

    Kev, can you take a quick look? everything from the outside looks good, ISTM that the docker pull failed on the host maybe for some reason?

  7. Kev

    Using default tag: latest latest: Pulling from xmppxsf/xmpp.org Digest: sha256:22a2df36de36f5905542b3525d32e65ad870b230189c8b8bb1d644fc1720417e Status: Image is up to date for xmppxsf/xmpp.org:latest Latest: sha256:1a30a4ff38277c65de19e213a8c010a28f3e78ddc3dcee7c294d865f60ab11e2 Running: sha256:1a30a4ff38277c65de19e213a8c010a28f3e78ddc3dcee7c294d865f60ab11e2 xmpp.org_website up to date

  8. Kev

    It believes it's running the latest.

  9. jonas’

    nyco, maybe it’s the spaces in the file name?

  10. jonas’

    like it’s the 90ies

  11. jonas’

    Kev, can you check the build logs from https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/ if there’s anything obvious in there? I don’t have my credentials with me

  12. jonas’

    Kev, can you check the build logs of the latest build from https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/ if there’s anything obvious in there? I don’t have my credentials with me

  13. Kev

    They all show as building successfully.

  14. jonas’

    yes, but pelican might’ve lied

  15. jonas’

    possibly because it didn’t consider the issue fatal

  16. jonas’

    I’ve seen pelican builds pass without non-zero exit code where no output was generated

  17. Kev

    https://hub.docker.com/u/xmppxsf/repository/docker/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/8d15cb1c-f9f8-496b-bd5d-60f7af76b39d seems to have no output to me, so I can't really check what happened.

  18. jonas’


  19. jonas’

    as usual, thanks

  20. nyco

    titles have always had spaces I had on doubt on the timestamp

  21. jonas’

    nyco, filename, not title

  22. jonas’

    oh yeah, broken timestamp can cause that too

  23. jonas’

    but it has the same format as the 2019-12-03 one

  24. jonas’

    my money is on the space in the filename, even though that’s quite 90ies

  25. nyco

    will try

  26. Kev

    Seems to me just that that docker hub's log showing is broken :/

  27. jonas’

    Kev, yeah, has been for ages :(

  28. jonas’

    sometimes you see something, but most of the time you don’t

  29. jonas’

    ah, but we can check the travis build

  30. Kev

    So why did you ask me to go looking? :p

  31. jonas’

    Kev, because I couldn’t even check that

  32. jonas’

    and *sometimes* you get output

  33. jonas’

    WARNING: Could not process posts/newsletter/Newsletter for 2020-01-10.md Failed loading extension "codehilite(css_class=highlight)".

  34. jonas’

    is that new?

  35. jonas’

    it shows for *all* posts: https://travis-ci.org/xsf/xmpp.org/jobs/636891227?utm_medium=notification&utm_source=github_status

  36. jonas’

    > Done: Processed 0 articles and 1 pages in 0.42 seconds.

  37. jonas’

    reads pretty bad

  38. jonas’

    I’m surprised that we still have any page up actually

  39. nyco


  40. jonas’

    ISTM I lost merge privileges on the repository

  41. jonas’

    (nevermind, just me being stupid)

  42. jonas’

    No really, I don’t have +w anymore

  43. jonas’

    so I can’t really do anything

  44. jonas’

    if the fix from nyco does not help (I don’t expect it to help), I strongly suggest to try: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/621

  45. jonas’

    though that has the same travis output *shrug*

  46. Kev

    The Pelican stuff is all a black box to me. nyco: Did it build for you locally?

  47. jonas’

    (FTR, that website never built correctly for me locally, though I have multiple pelican-based projects which work just fine)

  48. jonas’

    (something is weird about the xmpp.org setup, and I don’t know what it is)

  49. nyco

    I don't know how to build locally? btw, build what? I dunno what I'm doing here

  50. jonas’

    build the website

  51. jonas’

    html from md

  52. jonas’

    calling `make html` essentially

  53. jonas’

    but if you’ve never done that, you probably need dependencies & stuff

  54. nyco


  55. nyco

    ok, I'll commute from home to co-working space

  56. jonas’

    nyco, I can take a deeper look once I’m at home, though that won’t be before 15:00Z most likely

  57. jonas’

    ping me then if the issue is still unresolved

  58. nyco

    oh, it's online!

  59. nyco

    who did what?

  60. nyco

    just the filename change?

  61. nyco

    so, it was because of me, sorry...

  62. Kev

    I suspect so, but don't know. I've not touched anything, and Jonas said he'd not be able to look for a while.

  63. jonas’

    I didn’t do anything, and I don’t have any privileges on that repo anymore

  64. jonas’

    so the spaces in the filename. like in the 90ies

  65. jonas’

    PSA: Do not use JIDs as file/folder names in interoperable or portable applications: - Each individual part on a JID can be 1023 bytes long, which is longer than the typical path component limit on Linux (255 bytes) - The localpart can contain backslashes. Have fun with that on Windows. - The casefolding specified in the XMPP RFCs may differ from the casefolding the FS does, and it may map the different JIDs to the same dir entry (no proof for that, but we all know Unicode). - If you store JIDs which may be full JIDs, they have a forward slash which will cause fun on non-Windows systems. I personally would recommend JID | hash-function | base32 to deal with all of those issues, but I’m interested to hear about other techniques.

  66. Ge0rG

    SHA1 to the rescue!

  67. pep.

    I'm anticipating the following: "I'm using a real database I'm fine!" :-°

  68. jonas’

    pep., though MySQL has weird limits on VARCHAR length / index size, which causes its own bunch of troubles

  69. jonas’

    oh wait, you said real database.

  70. jonas’


  71. pep.

    that was a joke anyway

  72. Ge0rG

    I'm doing horrible things to JIDs before I put them into SQLite

  73. jonas’

    unspeakable things even?

  74. Ge0rG

    those, too

  75. Kev

    Unpronounceable things?

  76. flow

    what's the recommended xmpp client for mac users?

  77. jonas’


  78. Daniel

    > debian 👍

  79. Daniel

    Beagle maybe. But don't get your hopes up

  80. Kev

    I use Swift, obviously.

  81. larma

    How about Dino? 😀

  82. larma

    How much does the person want to suffer?

  83. jonas’

    if they want to suffer a lot, Adium

  84. larma

    converse maybe is a good suggestion?

  85. larma

    nobody said native macOS 😀

  86. jubalh

    > what's the recommended xmpp client for mac users? I also use converse js for all my MSC friends. The rest never worked fully

  87. flow

    thanks everyone :)

  88. ralphm

    jonas’, I dig your recommendation for debian to mac users.

  89. Ge0rG

    Put converse inside Electron and call it MacChat

  90. dwd

    I think Gajim works OK, from what I remember.

  91. jonas’

    Ge0rG, needs web push first

  92. dwd

    Thinking on from JC Brand and I chatting on Twitter about hosted email providers, could Board see about negotiating an XSF Member discount for this kind of thing?

  93. jonas’


  94. dwd

    jonas’, Doesn't need to be really, but https://twitter.com/DwdDave/status/1217423901619314688 and back from there.

  95. pep.

    Why would the XSF work on putting forward one provider? (#neutrality)

  96. Ge0rG

    Heinlein is a charismatic guy! Forget neutrality!

  97. pep.


  98. MattJ

    Especially Fastmail, since they dropped XMPP from their offering

  99. Ge0rG

    dwd: membership is open to anyone, sou you'd end up with new XSF applicants who want to cheap out on fastmail/mailbox/whatever.

  100. MattJ

    I likewise don't see the relevance

  101. Ge0rG


  102. MattJ

    Ge0rG, increase in year-on-year membership growth, success!

  103. Ge0rG

    MattJ: mailbox.org xmpp is also a second class citizen in their admin team

  104. Wojtek

    > <Daniel> Beagle maybe. But don't get your hopes up how so?

  105. moparisthebest

    can the XSF's mailman please be fixed? compare https://burtrum.org/up/dfd62b36-758e-46cd-aa6e-66382677fc86/open-screeny-5489.png to https://burtrum.org/up/be21a3c4-bb89-4736-8b7a-2bb4f9ee4345/open-screeny-5405.png

  106. moparisthebest

    "fixed" as in, don't add the footer breaking DKIM please

  107. pep.

    What possibly breaks the signature is not the body but the header being changed "[Members]", right?

  108. pep.

    At least for the first mail in the thread

  109. moparisthebest

    depends if the Subject header is signed or not, but yea perhaps that should be changed too

  110. jonas’

    Kev, whom do I need to pester about issues with the council mailing list?

  111. pep.

    MattJ is iteam now

  112. MattJ

    What are the issues?

  113. moparisthebest

    you could say the mailing list breaking DKIM is an encumbrance to participating in the standards process :D

  114. jonas’

    MattJ, my mails end up in the moderation queue

  115. moparisthebest

    also DKIM issues across all mailing lists

  116. Zash

    across *all* mailing lists. all of them, everywhere.

  117. Zash

    solution: remove DKIM

  118. jonas’

    I second that

  119. moparisthebest

    bringing back the worse problem of email spoofing

  120. jonas’


  121. jonas’

    use GPG if you need to be sure

  122. pep.

    Google will have a word with you. It doesn't matter if it's bad, Google says DKIM it is.

  123. moparisthebest

    but we don't have a say in that anyway, DKIM/DMARC is here, and there have been proper ways to configure mailman for years

  124. jonas’

    all off-topic though

  125. jonas’

    MattJ, I am subscribed with jonas@wielicki.name, judging by the X-Original-To header set by my MTA, but when I send from that address to the list, it gets queued

  126. jonas’

    it would be good if I could post messages to council@

  127. moparisthebest

    properly configuring mailman is off topic?

  128. jonas’

    moparisthebest, pretty sure it is

  129. jonas’

    you might want to know about iteam@

  130. moparisthebest

    I'm not sure if it's just them, it'll require removing the footer for instance, I don't know if that's a board decision or not

  131. jonas’

    IMO that’s a purely technical decision, but I see where you’re coming from

  132. MattJ

    Sorry, I don't know the list password and everything I've tried fails to let me in

  133. MattJ

    and too busy to do any further digging atm

  134. stpeter

    What's the mailman issue?

  135. ralphm

    Indeed, removing footers from mailman mails is definitely not a Board issue, but an iteam one.

  136. moparisthebest

    I swear we've discussed it in here before but my searches are failing, List-Unsubscribe was surely mentioned, anyway...

  137. MattJ

    stpeter, jonas’ is having his emails queued for some reason

  138. moparisthebest

    it's just that it breaks DKIM, which can be fixed, and that means users on well configured servers miss emails

  139. moparisthebest

    compare https://burtrum.org/up/dfd62b36-758e-46cd-aa6e-66382677fc86/open-screeny-5489.png to https://burtrum.org/up/be21a3c4-bb89-4736-8b7a-2bb4f9ee4345/open-screeny-5405.png

  140. MattJ

    Ok, there are two issues currently under discussion :)

  141. moparisthebest


  142. stpeter

    jonas’ please ping me directly and I can try to debug it for you

  143. stpeter

    Problem solved!

  144. jonas’

    <3 thanks

  145. stpeter

    The Council list is moderated, but I'm happy to unmoderate email addresses of known individuals (and of course jonas' is a Council member!).

  146. jonas’

    so next time someone is +council’d they should also set to be unmoderated, note @ iteam

  147. jonas’

    (not sure who normally manages list subscriptions)

  148. stpeter

    Also, to address the bus factor, we might want to assign more lits admins.

  149. Zash

    A start would be to get MattJ / iteam proper access?

  150. MattJ

    I supposedly have access, but may need some pointers

  151. stpeter

    I'll make a little HOWTO

  152. jonas’

    I can mailman, but I don’t have access

  153. jonas’

    I could probably guide someone through the thing

  154. jonas’

    (although I think it’s pretty straightforward)

  155. stpeter

    It is straightforward.

  156. stpeter

    I can give more folks access.

  157. pep.

    I guess that's up to iteam (to which you are part)

  158. pep.

    I guess that's up to iteam (of which you are part)

  159. stpeter

    In my experience, list admins come and go, but I'm here forever. ;-)

  160. ralphm

    stpeter: thanks! Keep that up. 💖

  161. stpeter

    But hey, bus factor...

  162. Kev

    There's already a HOWTO, you (I guess) wrote one years ago :)

  163. Kev

    And MattJ does have access, at least if he has access to atlas (which I thought he did)

  164. MattJ

    There is a how-to and I tried 7 passwords twice before giving up :)

  165. jonas’

    whenever I need to access a mailman admin interface, I log into the machine, run the command to reset the list password and move on ;)

  166. Kev

    That's less useful on a shared host.

  167. Kev

    MattJ: The password I had still worked the last time I tried it, at least, which wasn't very long ago.

  168. moparisthebest

    anyone have suggestions on how to respond to any of the on-list emails that didn't make it to my inbox?

  169. pep.

    If you point me to the email I can give you the header to add (References/Message-ID) :x

  170. pep.

    Some lists provide an mbox file

  171. pep.

    It seems ours don't?

  172. moparisthebest

    ^ that's what I was hoping but I didn't see anything

  173. ralphm

    Download the mbox file?

  174. ralphm

    Don't click on this just for the fun of it, it is big: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards.mbox/standards.mbox

  175. Zash

    Not Found

  176. ralphm

    let me find out, I did this before

  177. Zash

    https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/ has an archive per month

  178. Ge0rG

    Isn't it linked from the monthly archive?

  179. ralphm

    The monthly archive is different I think. Not sure if that's mbox.

  180. ralphm

    It is gzipped in any case

  181. Zash

    Looks like mbox I think?

  182. ralphm

    Yep, does look like it

  183. !XSF_Martin

    Last time I wanted to read something in a ML I could just `mutt -f mailinglist.gz`

  184. ralphm


  185. moparisthebest

    the members@ is what I need in this case, trying that link

  186. ralphm

    Zash: the full archive is https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/private/standards.mbox/standards.mbox

  187. ralphm

    and you need to log in with your list creds

  188. Zash

    Ah, yes, those.. I remember those. :)

  189. dwd

    Is anyone going to Brussels on the Wednesday? I'm wondering whether to get an earlyish train or not. Depends if there's going to be anyone there for a drink when I get there.

  190. Syndace

    dwd: quite a few people, counting 9 right now

  191. dwd

    Cool, I'll go for the afternoon train then.

  192. MattJ

    Me too

  193. dwd

    MattJ, There's a cheap one I'm booking at 15:04. Happy to pick a seat next to you if you fancy company?

  194. MattJ

    Sounds great

  195. MattJ

    Except I can't book mine right now

  196. dwd

    (As usual, booked the last one going back on Sunday).

  197. MattJ

    True story: the Eurostar website hates me

  198. MattJ

    Every year I have the same error: CHECKOUT_706

  199. dwd

    It hates me, too. Refuses to let me register.

  200. MattJ

    and every year they can't tell me why

  201. dwd


  202. MattJ

    I've tried different browsers, different payment cards, paypal, different address even

  203. MattJ

    I have no idea what it's about

  204. MattJ

    I've tried being logged in, logged out

  205. dwd

    Different email address?

  206. MattJ

    I don't know if I've tried that

  207. dwd

    Tried a false name?

  208. MattJ

    Because it's always wise to give a false name when crossing the border

  209. dwd

    This time, perhaps.

  210. Shell

    the eurostar website hates everybody, I am the only person in my friend group who can book interrail-discounted eurostar tickets successfully

  211. dwd

    Hmmm. I definitely can't.