XSF Discussion - 2020-01-20


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  4. Ge0rG dwd: maybe an official blog post? My boss is actually rather reasonable, and I don't think there will be a convincing angle besides of that project I've told you about
  5. winfried Ge0rG: don't know, but maybe this can help: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_summits_for_dummies
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  8. Ge0rG Probably the protocol standardization angle is even better. We are part of some such orgs, like IEC 62443
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  156. Guus Ge0rG didn't we have a blogpost for your PHB last year? 🙂
  157. Ge0rG Guus: it doesn't explain anything about Summit, merely announces it
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  166. nyco one for the iTeam? https://twitter.com/BenBE1987/status/1218983250833608704
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  170. Guus nyco they're aware. Someone already brought it up during the weekend (technically, it's not iteam, but some of the same people are involved)
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  172. nyco oh sorry
  173. Guus no worries, easy mistake
  174. Ge0rG I'd like to know the reasons why it's not iteam (or in other words, why jabber.org is not run by the XSF)
  175. jonas’ I bet those reasons are hysterical
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  178. Ge0rG IIRC that came up before and there also was something regarding separation of concerns
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  204. MattJ Historically jabber.org and the JSF/XSF were very intertwined
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  206. MattJ So it was an active move to separate them, not historical reasons
  207. MattJ I'm not sure how much sense it makes for a standards foundation to run a public IM service
  208. Ge0rG something something matrix.org
  209. Guus Does it matter either way?
  210. MattJ Yes, if the past few weeks of the XSF have shown anything :)
  211. Guus 😲
  212. MattJ It's currently running a closed-source XMPP server
  213. Guus noooooo you didn't go there didn't you? 😃
  214. jonas’ oh dear
  215. Zash XSF = evil confirmed
  216. MattJ I meant to demonstrate that it does matter, I don't believe XSF manpower should be distracted from standards work by discussing some random IM service
  217. jonas’ but jabber.org isn’t the XSF!
  218. jonas’ MattJ, I’m not sure that one of the largest servers which also has the name matching exactly the trademark the XSF has some power over should be called "random" ;)
  219. jonas’ but yeah
  220. jonas’ it needs lots of work to be good
  221. MattJ Obviously jabber.org has some historical significance, but it's conceptually nothing to do with standards development (more than any other public server is)
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  234. Daniel i tried to address some of the LC feedback for 363. https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/880 cc Kev, Guus
  235. Guus seen it. I think its an improvement.
  236. Guus wasn't to worried about the previous state, but this makes it more concise.
  237. Daniel yes. you were right that it was a weird requirement (someone else pointed that out as well; but i forgot who otherwise i would have cced them as well)
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  249. dwd Daniel, The requirement of no access control? I pointed that out. I note you didn't include that as a security consideration; it's implied, and not a hill for me to die on, but it seems worth considering if you're building a system using this spec.
  250. dwd Daniel, More explicitly: I don't think the lack of access control is a bad thing; I do think it's the kind of thing people should be aware of, and perhaps having it in the requirements is enough.
  251. pep. One can still run access control on the network. https://upload.some.lan/foo.png might not be accessible to people outside the network
  252. Daniel update https://gultsch.de/files/xep-0363.html
  253. Daniel (in section 8.3)
  254. dwd Daniel, Looks good - that's not in the current PR unless I'm being more stupid than usual?
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  256. Daniel no; i wanted to run that by you before i force push
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  258. dwd Daniel, Ah, I see. It looks fine, push, merge, etc.
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  273. ralphm You can combine this, e.g., with pre-signed URLs, like Amazon S3 has.
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  298. ralphm At VEON we did something like this: client requests a slot, server returns pre-signed URLs for PUT and GET. Even though there's strictly no access control, as per section 2, it is a *lot* harder to know the URLs.
  299. ralphm Another thing you may want to consider is having the links expire after a while. Very short for PUT, e.g. a week for GET.
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  303. Daniel I actually have a deployment too where the get urls expire. I find that very annoying because I have to go through the service to get them renewed
  304. Daniel I can't just put a url in the avatar meta data node for example
  305. ralphm Ah, indeed, for avatars, we had something special.
  306. ralphm Expiry is quite useless there.
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  310. ralphm I suppose it would be nice if you could specify desired expiry.
  311. ralphm (when requesting a slot)
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  314. Ge0rG Which is also useless for avatars
  315. Ge0rG Because you don't know when you'll create the next one. And eternal storage is a nice DoS vector
  316. Guus still, end-users generally seem to expect non-expiry.
  317. Guus I have a simple server-sided implementation. The number one complaint was that stuff eventually disappeared (which was by design).
  318. jonas’ expiry in the order of months is probably ok, plus a quota
  319. Guus jonas’ I wonder if it is.
  320. Guus if expiry takes that long, people might have grown to expect data to persist.
  321. jonas’ Guus, or have forgotten about the links ;)
  322. Guus the amount of people that complain will be less, but those that do have an issue, will have a bigger axe to grind.
  323. jonas’ one can of course also do something smarter than this, but I’d also like to note that in general, clients present HTTP upload as a method to transfer files, not as a method to store things
  324. Guus I don't think so.
  325. jonas’ then that’s a client issue IMO
  326. jonas’ you cannot reasonably expect an XMPP service to host files forever
  327. Guus people are used to be able to scroll back in history endlessly, and view media that was exchanged in a chat from other devices, pretty much unlimited.
  328. Guus jonas’ I think end-users do, to be honest.
  329. Guus they don't care about the poor system admin having to pay for storage 🙂
  330. jonas’ Guus, I disagree ;)
  331. jonas’ but eh
  332. jonas’ that’s a pointless discussion then and we’ve had enough of *that*
  333. Guus the bikeshed shall be purple!
  334. jonas’ let’s boil it down to this: expiry is going to be a real world thing which happens
  335. jonas’ be it based on time, or based on quota and fifo
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  338. Guus what we could do is make it more explicit.
  339. Guus managing expectations goes a long way.
  340. jonas’ indeed, which is what I meant by saying "that’s a client issue IMO"
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  342. Guus again, I disagree 🙂
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  344. Guus you want your media to show up consistently on all resources.
  345. Guus I don't think clients can / should manage that.
  346. jonas’ by client issue I mean: clients should be clearly communicating that HTTP upload URLs are ephemeral
  347. Guus ah right.
  348. jonas’ which is I think what you were saying
  349. Guus yeah - I was thinking more of clients explicitly negotiating this with the server (which the xep already at least partially allows for, iirc)
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  373. ralphm We did some calculations on what it would cost to store uploaded pictures and videos. At any significant scale, this is prohibitive.
  374. ralphm I.e. if you'd allow indefinite storage.
  375. ralphm And sure, I dislike stuff going away quite a bit, but there is so much more media exchange in typical chat exchanges than compared to, say, e-mail, that I think it is very reasonable for server admins to decide on relatively low expiry, in the order of a few weeks.
  376. ralphm For avatars, of course, you should be able to select "indefinite"
  377. MattJ What's the difference?
  378. MattJ Avatars are small? and you only have one of them?
  379. edhelas i'll have to limit en cleanup old files on my xmpp server as well
  380. ralphm MattJ: if avatars would expire, that be not be great
  381. MattJ ralphm, I agree
  382. MattJ But we're against indefinite hosting of stuff, and now we're making exceptions - I could upload a 6GB movie and claim it's my avatar
  383. MattJ Just trying to figure out what the rules should be
  384. ralphm MattJ: what a reasonable size is, is debatable, but it doesn't compare to typical media sharing behavior I witnessed at VEON, or in, say, WhatsApp
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  386. ralphm MattJ: I could imagine servers offering different "buckets" for different use cases. One for avatars (you can only have one, max this size, no expiry), v.s. media sharing (many, max total size, max expiry)
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  390. ralphm And that clients have to specify which bucket to use.
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  393. ralphm _also_, if you are sharing stuff from an existing storage service, like a picture that is also stored in Google Photos, maybe it would be much better to share by reference.
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  395. ralphm Then, the recipient's ability to go back and still retrieve the image is dependent on that service, instead of your server.
  396. ralphm Lastly, if you are concerned about your local archive, maybe servers should provide a way to copy and store media shared with you, and reference that from your MAM archive.
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  401. jonas’ ralphm, re sharing by reference, that’s already "supported" by some clients (e.g. in poezio, you can /embed any URL instead of /upload local file)
  402. dwd sets avatar as 1Tb tarfile.
  403. jonas’ ex.:
  404. jonas’ https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9OhTPiCkYUo/U5GdYy8atqI/AAAAAAAAWDc/Fj6bsVE2K18/s1600/Well+thats+just+like+your+opinion+man.jpg
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  407. ralphm jonas’, yeah, so Gajim just shows a link, but Conversations shows the picture.
  408. ralphm I installed some Gajim plugins now. That helps.
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  411. jonas’ :)
  412. jonas’ (and JabberCat will simply OOB-tag any URL-only message)
  413. dwd I know that there's a group that resists any suggestion the XSF should make UI/UX mandates, but I'd really like to suggest renderings for some messages so we have an agreed way to send pictures etc.
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  423. ralphm What if we'd call them Usability Considerations.
  424. ralphm What if we'd call them Usability Considerations?
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  427. Ge0rG Uability is faaaar out of the scope of the XSF
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  429. Ge0rG Also I like the idea of mirroring shared files on the user's server, but the only problem it solves is when the remote file hoster has a shorter expiration than your MAM
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  432. ralphm Ge0rG, sure. But I control which server I use, and by extension what that expiration is. In my case: self-hosted ⇒ infinite.
  433. Ge0rG ralphm: yes, I understand that. But it doesn't scale to mere mortals
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  435. ralphm Ge0rG, as for usability being out of scope, I don't see any problem with people writing XEPs discussing usability aspects. Most people writing XEPs are not security experts, but still write Security Considerations. Anyone implementing a XEP still needs to make their own determination on security.
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  438. Ge0rG ralphm: that message contained a sarcasm element, but I forgot to add a legacy body. Sorry.
  439. ralphm E.g. when specifying Reactions, you can suggest how this can be / is typically rendered, in different types of clients (GUI, text-only, text-to-speech). Or point to a document like this: https://indieweb.org/reacji
  440. ralphm Ge0rG: I just responded as if it wasn't, as not every casual reader would be able to detect it.
  441. Zash Ge0rG: Like in Matrix, with some special URI scheme with some touple of server name and file id, retrieved from your own server always?
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  443. Ge0rG Zash: something like that. would also close the ip leak to adversarial servers
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  445. Zash Server-hosted very strict proxy? Chained Proxy65? Magic?
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  447. Ge0rG apt install squid
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  449. ralphm But with a stable cache.
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  451. ralphm That persists after the original is gone.
  452. Ge0rG This is a can of worms.
  453. ralphm Sure.
  454. ralphm E.g. when signing individual messages
  455. Ge0rG But somebody wanted a quick&dirty solution to file sharing.
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  478. Guus Is there an existing implementation of MAM that allows for keyword search? If so, what's the form field definition that's used for it? XEP-0313 doesn't specify that functionality (but does list an example 'urn:example:xmpp:free-text-search')
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  482. Guus I'm adding something for Openfire. Might as well re-use something existing.
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  485. Guus cc MattJ
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  487. Zash MAM that ships with Prosody doesn't have full text search
  488. Zash ejabberd might have?
  489. MattJ Guus, ejabberd has something, and I have a draft spec in my head
  490. Guus just need the field form definition for now 🙂
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  492. MattJ The main issue is that you have to do dumb search or specify what operators are supported
  493. MattJ Dumb search is fine for some users, but advanced search in e.g. Slack is quite helpful
  494. MattJ But they can be separate specs obviously
  495. ralphm I've been contemplating learning to program a Lua module to write a MAM module for Prosody.
  496. ralphm That uses Elasticsearch as backend.
  497. Guus I'm faking stuff by feeding it in a lucene query
  498. Guus simple keywords will work, but more elaborate lucene queries too (although you'd need to know the index fields)
  499. MattJ ralphm, you'd want to implement a storage module, we have an internal API which should map fairly nicely to ElasticSearch
  500. MattJ Guus, that's the kind of thing I wanted to avoid
  501. ralphm MattJ, are you aware of anyone doing this before?
  502. MattJ ralphm, I don't think so... it was somewhere on my todo list but everyone I've worked with has been fine with postgres for now so I never had an excuse to implement it
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  504. ralphm I also need to figure out a way to sync my Gajim history /back/ to MAM.
  505. Ge0rG can't you just expose SQL?
  506. Zash Free-form WHERE clause?
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  510. Ge0rG free-form SQL
  511. Daniel XQL?
  512. Zash Mmmmm `UPDATE "users" SET 'admin' = 1 WHERE "username" = me`
  513. Guus urn:irf:xmpp:free-text-search it is!
  514. Zash irf?
  515. Guus ignite realtime foundation
  516. Zash Have you registered that?
  517. Daniel Guus, have you checked with ejabberd?
  518. Guus 4 minutes of googling didn't turn up anything of interest.
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  521. Daniel give me a second; i know xml
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  524. Daniel the field is called 'withtext'
  525. Zash Not namespaced?
  526. Daniel nope
  527. Zash calls the registry police
  528. Guus withtext works for me.
  529. Guus thanks Daniel
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  531. MattJ Meh, very non-standard
  532. MattJ Form fields that aren't standard are meant to use Clark notation
  533. ralphm Yeah, don't invent your own URN namespace.
  534. MattJ withtext is not specified in any XEP or registrat
  535. MattJ withtext is not specified in any XEP or registry
  536. Zash MattJ, hm, does that example use clark notation? It probably should
  537. MattJ Maybe, but it's an example of what another XEP might define
  538. Guus I'm either going with compatibility with ejabberd, unless someone suggests a semi-futureproof alternative in the next few minutes.
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  542. MattJ If it's just one implementation going rogue, fine, but if everyone follows it's kinda annoying
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  544. MattJ Especially since your search syntax *isn't* plain text, but lucene
  545. MattJ so '{xmpp:openfire.org}withtext' or whatever you want
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  551. ralphm MattJ: what does plain text mean, exactly? Every implementation needs to interpret the query string somehow. A few examples: a) does the input get tokenized? b) do the tokens get stemmed? In which language? c) does a space mean AND or OR d) any other processing like case folding
  552. Zash Fields can have a description. Just paste the entire docs for your fts engine in there :)
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  555. Daniel technically it probably doesn’t matter much; you just take direct user input; and then depending on server users might see different results; but than can be ok
  556. Daniel i mean search doesn’t need to interop between multiple servers
  557. Guus it's kinda nice that you get somewhat similar results though
  558. dwd ralphm, What Daniel says. If you're asking for a plaintext search, then the interop point is that you can ask, not what results you get back (which is a QoI case).
  559. ralphm Daniel: Sure, but if you want to offer client-side assistance, like how Slack suggests search modifiers, then maybe it would be helpful to figure out how to relay that information.
  560. Guus Yeah, but it's annoying if you're in three different MUCs, and the search on your client yields different results based on the same syntax (eg: spaces result in an AND or OR query)
  561. Daniel well you could probably specificy low hanging fruit like "it means AND"; but i don’t think stemming needs to be the same across servers
  562. dwd Guus, How would you tell?
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  564. dwd Guus, I mean, unless they were interlinked MUCs via FMUC or something equally esoteric.
  565. Guus dwd: say I'd remember having a conversation, but forgot in what room. I'd like to use the same query on all rooms.
  566. Ge0rG dwd: you can't, so it's even more annoying
  567. Zash Local MUC history?
  568. Zash MIX!
  569. Zash MUIX
  570. dwd Surely any server with search that didn't find stuff in any obvious way would just get fixed?
  571. Guus surely. I'm currently fixing the fixes applied by the previous fixer.
  572. Guus eyes dwd
  573. Guus aaanyways
  574. Guus does this make anyone extremely unhappy?
  575. Guus form.addField("xmpp:irf:mam:free-text-search", "Free text search", FormField.Type.text_single);
  576. Guus (other than that it's Java)
  577. Zash Guus, that makes me unhappy
  578. Zash Oh, wait, not urn:
  579. Guus does this make anyone but Zash extremely unhappy?
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  582. jonas’ Guus, I’d prefer {urn:dns:openfire.org}free-text-search or something similar
  583. Zash or `{xmpp:openfire.org/stuff-maybe}free-text-search` like MattJ said earlier
  584. Daniel is urn:dns:mydomain a thing?
  585. jonas’ it is
  586. Zash is it?
  587. Daniel til
  588. Zash I don't see it in https://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces/urn-namespaces.xhtml
  589. jonas’ ah, dns:mydomain
  590. jonas’ not urn:dns:
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  592. jonas’ https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4501
  593. Zash or `urn:uuid:$(generate-uuid)` :)
  594. jonas’ or that, but that’s quite opaque
  595. Zash Nice for experiments tho
  596. jonas’ true
  597. Zash I had a thing that used a hash based UUID over its own source code.
  598. MattJ Great for interop
  599. Zash Yeah, either you have the same version or it doesn't work.
  600. ralphm urn:dns is silly for this, I think
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  602. jonas’ urn:dns isn’t even a thihng
  603. ralphm Just use https URLs
  604. Zash No, use gopher: URLs!
  605. MattJ This is *definitely* the protocol developers' equivalent to bikeshedding
  606. Guus Yeah, I'm back at freetext.
  607. Zash Hold on let me find where ASN.1 namespaces are mounted into the urn: tree
  608. ralphm Yes, indeed, but using a non-registered URN namespace is just *wrong*.
  609. Guus or whittext or whatever it was that ejabberd did
  610. Zash urn:oid:1.stuff?
  611. MattJ Guus, you've had a number of acceptable suggestions, choose one or state why they aren't good enough
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  615. MattJ xmpp:irf isn't acceptable because 'irf' isn't the address of an XMPP service
  616. Zash Unless you register the .irf TLD for 200k :)
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  618. ralphm And then still, single-label DNS names are, well, terrible.
  619. Guus Yeah, I'm going for the same as ejabberd until there's consensus.
  620. MattJ > 15:36:49 Zash> or `{xmpp:openfire.org/stuff-maybe}free-text-search` like MattJ said earlier
  621. ralphm Guus: what does ejabberd do?
  622. MattJ There won't be consensus because almost all the suggestions were valid options
  623. MattJ All more valid than 'withtext'
  624. Guus any client that currently supports the feature will probably use 'withtext'
  625. Guus ugly as hell, but at least that adds some functional value.
  626. Zash And thus we have another de-facto standard.
  627. MattJ With a different syntax
  628. MattJ Sigh
  629. Zash Thanks
  630. Ge0rG I suggest the eu.siacs.conversations.withtext namespace.
  631. ralphm :sob:
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  634. MattJ Guus, to be clear, it is XEP-0068 you are breaking by using 'withtext': https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0068.html#approach-fieldnames
  635. MattJ (and so is ejabberd, but it's not too late to save you)
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  638. Guus I'm happy to change it whenever there's consensus on something - a protoxep, or whatever. I've now had various suggestions that were all more or less desirable - I simply don't have the time to evaluate all options today.
  639. ralphm Guus: Indeed, please just use clark notation with an https URI.
  640. Guus stuff hasn't been released yet anyway
  641. MattJ Guus, the problem with protocols is once you do that, you're stuck with them... need I mention vcard-temp?
  642. ralphm Guus: it is more important to not do the things people said are definitely wrong. Including 'withtext' (unqualified), unregistered URN prefixes, stuff starting with 'urn:xmpp:' when the doc is not in our inbox.
  643. ralphm MattJ: or even jabber:
  644. Zash > need I mention vcard-temp? WHY WON'T IT DIE? I've been trying to push for vcard4 but everyone just uses more vcard-temp, like adding it to MUC :(
  645. ralphm inertia
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  649. Zash But then XEP-0084 is sorta supported by everyone and Pidgin
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