XSF Discussion - 2020-01-20

  1. debacle has left
  2. lorddavidiii has left
  3. lorddavidiii has joined
  4. Ge0rG dwd: maybe an official blog post? My boss is actually rather reasonable, and I don't think there will be a convincing angle besides of that project I've told you about
  5. winfried Ge0rG: don't know, but maybe this can help: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_summits_for_dummies
  6. zach has left
  7. zach has joined
  8. Ge0rG Probably the protocol standardization angle is even better. We are part of some such orgs, like IEC 62443
  9. !XSF_Martin has left
  10. !XSF_Martin has joined
  11. stpeter has left
  12. lorddavidiii has left
  13. stpeter has joined
  14. lorddavidiii has joined
  15. Shell has left
  16. Shell has joined
  17. smokeyy2000 has joined
  18. aj has joined
  19. sonny has joined
  20. stpeter has left
  21. lorddavidiii has left
  22. karoshi has left
  23. zach has left
  24. zach has joined
  25. lorddavidiii has joined
  26. sonny has left
  27. Dele (Mobile) has left
  28. pdurbin has joined
  29. stpeter has joined
  30. zach has left
  31. zach has joined
  32. pdurbin has left
  33. lskdjf has left
  34. sonny has joined
  35. pdurbin has joined
  36. andrey.g has joined
  37. mukt2 has joined
  38. pdurbin has left
  39. fearofthedark has joined
  40. fearofthedark has left
  41. mukt2 has left
  42. neshtaxmpp has joined
  43. zach has left
  44. zach has joined
  45. smokeyy2000 has left
  46. mukt2 has joined
  47. Yagiza has joined
  48. stpeter has left
  49. !XSF_Martin has left
  50. !XSF_Martin has joined
  51. mukt2 has left
  52. lorddavidiii has left
  53. pdurbin has joined
  54. lorddavidiii has joined
  55. Shell has left
  56. mukt2 has joined
  57. smokeyy2000 has joined
  58. mukt2 has left
  59. zach has left
  60. zach has joined
  61. andy has joined
  62. mukt2 has joined
  63. mukt2 has left
  64. Nekit has joined
  65. stpeter has joined
  66. mukt2 has joined
  67. adiaholic has joined
  68. zach has left
  69. zach has joined
  70. stpeter has left
  71. mukt2 has left
  72. smokeyy2000 has left
  73. mukt2 has joined
  74. sonny has left
  75. !XSF_Martin has left
  76. smokeyy2000 has joined
  77. sonny has joined
  78. mukt2 has left
  79. stpeter has joined
  80. mukt2 has joined
  81. Arc has left
  82. lorddavidiii has left
  83. lorddavidiii has joined
  84. j.r has left
  85. j.r has joined
  86. pdurbin has left
  87. smokeyy2000 has left
  88. lovetox has joined
  89. stpeter has left
  90. stpeter has joined
  91. zach has left
  92. zach has joined
  93. stpeter has left
  94. lovetox has left
  95. j.r has left
  96. j.r has joined
  97. Tobias has left
  98. Tobias has joined
  99. zach has left
  100. zach has joined
  101. mukt2 has left
  102. mukt2 has joined
  103. wurstsalat has joined
  104. zach has left
  105. zach has joined
  106. wurstsalat has left
  107. wurstsalat has joined
  108. karoshi has joined
  109. Daniel has left
  110. emus has joined
  111. stpeter has joined
  112. mimi89999 has left
  113. mimi89999 has joined
  114. Daniel has joined
  115. zach has left
  116. zach has joined
  117. moparisthebest has left
  118. moparisthebest has joined
  119. sonny has left
  120. stpeter has left
  121. sonny has joined
  122. pdurbin has joined
  123. sonny has left
  124. stpeter has joined
  125. sonny has joined
  126. mukt2 has left
  127. mathijs has left
  128. mathijs has joined
  129. mukt2 has joined
  130. Nekit has left
  131. Nekit has joined
  132. pdurbin has left
  133. aj has left
  134. zach has left
  135. zach has joined
  136. a has joined
  137. stpeter has left
  138. mathijs has left
  139. mathijs has joined
  140. sonny has left
  141. sonny has joined
  142. stpeter has joined
  143. Daniel has left
  144. Daniel has joined
  145. sonny has left
  146. Daniel has left
  147. Daniel has joined
  148. !XSF_Martin has joined
  149. stpeter has left
  150. mathijs has left
  151. mathijs has joined
  152. Daniel has left
  153. Daniel has joined
  154. Daniel has left
  155. Daniel has joined
  156. Guus Ge0rG didn't we have a blogpost for your PHB last year? 🙂
  157. Ge0rG Guus: it doesn't explain anything about Summit, merely announces it
  158. Daniel has left
  159. Daniel has joined
  160. Daniel has left
  161. Daniel has joined
  162. adiaholic has left
  163. matkor has left
  164. Syndace has left
  165. Syndace has joined
  166. nyco one for the iTeam? https://twitter.com/BenBE1987/status/1218983250833608704
  167. Daniel has left
  168. Daniel has joined
  169. zach has left
  170. Guus nyco they're aware. Someone already brought it up during the weekend (technically, it's not iteam, but some of the same people are involved)
  171. zach has joined
  172. nyco oh sorry
  173. Guus no worries, easy mistake
  174. Ge0rG I'd like to know the reasons why it's not iteam (or in other words, why jabber.org is not run by the XSF)
  175. jonas’ I bet those reasons are hysterical
  176. Daniel has left
  177. Daniel has joined
  178. Ge0rG IIRC that came up before and there also was something regarding separation of concerns
  179. adiaholic has joined
  180. stpeter has joined
  181. mimi89999 has left
  182. Kev has left
  183. matkor has joined
  184. emus has left
  185. stpeter has left
  186. sonny has joined
  187. waqas has left
  188. aj has joined
  189. pdurbin has joined
  190. lorddavidiii has left
  191. aj has left
  192. lorddavidiii has joined
  193. lorddavidiii has left
  194. stpeter has joined
  195. lorddavidiii has joined
  196. pdurbin has left
  197. lorddavidiii has left
  198. !XSF_Martin has left
  199. lorddavidiii has joined
  200. stpeter has left
  201. Daniel has left
  202. Daniel has joined
  203. debacle has joined
  204. MattJ Historically jabber.org and the JSF/XSF were very intertwined
  205. adiaholic has left
  206. MattJ So it was an active move to separate them, not historical reasons
  207. MattJ I'm not sure how much sense it makes for a standards foundation to run a public IM service
  208. Ge0rG something something matrix.org
  209. Guus Does it matter either way?
  210. MattJ Yes, if the past few weeks of the XSF have shown anything :)
  211. Guus 😲
  212. MattJ It's currently running a closed-source XMPP server
  213. Guus noooooo you didn't go there didn't you? 😃
  214. jonas’ oh dear
  215. Zash XSF = evil confirmed
  216. MattJ I meant to demonstrate that it does matter, I don't believe XSF manpower should be distracted from standards work by discussing some random IM service
  217. jonas’ but jabber.org isn’t the XSF!
  218. jonas’ MattJ, I’m not sure that one of the largest servers which also has the name matching exactly the trademark the XSF has some power over should be called "random" ;)
  219. jonas’ but yeah
  220. jonas’ it needs lots of work to be good
  221. MattJ Obviously jabber.org has some historical significance, but it's conceptually nothing to do with standards development (more than any other public server is)
  222. adiaholic has joined
  223. mimi89999 has joined
  224. adiaholic has left
  225. larma has left
  226. smokeyy2000 has joined
  227. emus has joined
  228. stpeter has joined
  229. larma has joined
  230. !XSF_Martin has joined
  231. zach has left
  232. zach has joined
  233. stpeter has left
  234. Daniel i tried to address some of the LC feedback for 363. https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/880 cc Kev, Guus
  235. Guus seen it. I think its an improvement.
  236. Guus wasn't to worried about the previous state, but this makes it more concise.
  237. Daniel yes. you were right that it was a weird requirement (someone else pointed that out as well; but i forgot who otherwise i would have cced them as well)
  238. smokeyy2000 has left
  239. mukt2 has left
  240. stpeter has joined
  241. zach has left
  242. zach has joined
  243. madhur.garg has left
  244. tao has joined
  245. tao has left
  246. mukt2 has joined
  247. Shell has joined
  248. stpeter has left
  249. dwd Daniel, The requirement of no access control? I pointed that out. I note you didn't include that as a security consideration; it's implied, and not a hill for me to die on, but it seems worth considering if you're building a system using this spec.
  250. dwd Daniel, More explicitly: I don't think the lack of access control is a bad thing; I do think it's the kind of thing people should be aware of, and perhaps having it in the requirements is enough.
  251. pep. One can still run access control on the network. https://upload.some.lan/foo.png might not be accessible to people outside the network
  252. Daniel update https://gultsch.de/files/xep-0363.html
  253. Daniel (in section 8.3)
  254. dwd Daniel, Looks good - that's not in the current PR unless I'm being more stupid than usual?
  255. mukt2 has left
  256. Daniel no; i wanted to run that by you before i force push
  257. lorddavidiii has left
  258. dwd Daniel, Ah, I see. It looks fine, push, merge, etc.
  259. lorddavidiii has joined
  260. lorddavidiii has left
  261. zach has left
  262. zach has joined
  263. mukt2 has joined
  264. lorddavidiii has joined
  265. debacle has left
  266. debacle has joined
  267. lorddavidiii has left
  268. Wojtek has joined
  269. debacle has left
  270. debacle has joined
  271. stpeter has joined
  272. lorddavidiii has joined
  273. ralphm You can combine this, e.g., with pre-signed URLs, like Amazon S3 has.
  274. sonny has left
  275. mukt2 has left
  276. lorddavidiii has left
  277. mukt2 has joined
  278. lorddavidiii has joined
  279. !XSF_Martin has left
  280. lorddavidiii has left
  281. lovetox has joined
  282. lorddavidiii has joined
  283. !XSF_Martin has joined
  284. zach has left
  285. zach has joined
  286. eevvoor has joined
  287. sonny has joined
  288. mukt2 has left
  289. mukt2 has joined
  290. Dele (Mobile) has joined
  291. stpeter has left
  292. sonny has left
  293. pdurbin has joined
  294. mukt2 has left
  295. zach has left
  296. zach has joined
  297. mukt2 has joined
  298. ralphm At VEON we did something like this: client requests a slot, server returns pre-signed URLs for PUT and GET. Even though there's strictly no access control, as per section 2, it is a *lot* harder to know the URLs.
  299. ralphm Another thing you may want to consider is having the links expire after a while. Very short for PUT, e.g. a week for GET.
  300. stpeter has joined
  301. j.r has left
  302. j.r has joined
  303. Daniel I actually have a deployment too where the get urls expire. I find that very annoying because I have to go through the service to get them renewed
  304. Daniel I can't just put a url in the avatar meta data node for example
  305. ralphm Ah, indeed, for avatars, we had something special.
  306. ralphm Expiry is quite useless there.
  307. emus has left
  308. mukt2 has left
  309. lskdjf has joined
  310. ralphm I suppose it would be nice if you could specify desired expiry.
  311. ralphm (when requesting a slot)
  312. emus has joined
  313. j.r has left
  314. Ge0rG Which is also useless for avatars
  315. Ge0rG Because you don't know when you'll create the next one. And eternal storage is a nice DoS vector
  316. Guus still, end-users generally seem to expect non-expiry.
  317. Guus I have a simple server-sided implementation. The number one complaint was that stuff eventually disappeared (which was by design).
  318. jonas’ expiry in the order of months is probably ok, plus a quota
  319. Guus jonas’ I wonder if it is.
  320. Guus if expiry takes that long, people might have grown to expect data to persist.
  321. jonas’ Guus, or have forgotten about the links ;)
  322. Guus the amount of people that complain will be less, but those that do have an issue, will have a bigger axe to grind.
  323. jonas’ one can of course also do something smarter than this, but I’d also like to note that in general, clients present HTTP upload as a method to transfer files, not as a method to store things
  324. Guus I don't think so.
  325. jonas’ then that’s a client issue IMO
  326. jonas’ you cannot reasonably expect an XMPP service to host files forever
  327. Guus people are used to be able to scroll back in history endlessly, and view media that was exchanged in a chat from other devices, pretty much unlimited.
  328. Guus jonas’ I think end-users do, to be honest.
  329. Guus they don't care about the poor system admin having to pay for storage 🙂
  330. jonas’ Guus, I disagree ;)
  331. jonas’ but eh
  332. jonas’ that’s a pointless discussion then and we’ve had enough of *that*
  333. Guus the bikeshed shall be purple!
  334. jonas’ let’s boil it down to this: expiry is going to be a real world thing which happens
  335. jonas’ be it based on time, or based on quota and fifo
  336. zach has left
  337. zach has joined
  338. Guus what we could do is make it more explicit.
  339. Guus managing expectations goes a long way.
  340. jonas’ indeed, which is what I meant by saying "that’s a client issue IMO"
  341. derdaniel has joined
  342. Guus again, I disagree 🙂
  343. derdaniel has left
  344. Guus you want your media to show up consistently on all resources.
  345. Guus I don't think clients can / should manage that.
  346. jonas’ by client issue I mean: clients should be clearly communicating that HTTP upload URLs are ephemeral
  347. Guus ah right.
  348. jonas’ which is I think what you were saying
  349. Guus yeah - I was thinking more of clients explicitly negotiating this with the server (which the xep already at least partially allows for, iirc)
  350. stpeter has left
  351. sonny has joined
  352. lovetox has left
  353. lovetox has joined
  354. sonny has left
  355. derdaniel has joined
  356. mukt2 has joined
  357. derdaniel has left
  358. j.r has joined
  359. pdurbin has left
  360. lovetox has left
  361. zach has left
  362. zach has joined
  363. mukt2 has left
  364. Shell has left
  365. Shell has joined
  366. adiaholic has joined
  367. stpeter has joined
  368. zach has left
  369. zach has joined
  370. mukt2 has joined
  371. stpeter has left
  372. mukt2 has left
  373. ralphm We did some calculations on what it would cost to store uploaded pictures and videos. At any significant scale, this is prohibitive.
  374. ralphm I.e. if you'd allow indefinite storage.
  375. ralphm And sure, I dislike stuff going away quite a bit, but there is so much more media exchange in typical chat exchanges than compared to, say, e-mail, that I think it is very reasonable for server admins to decide on relatively low expiry, in the order of a few weeks.
  376. ralphm For avatars, of course, you should be able to select "indefinite"
  377. MattJ What's the difference?
  378. MattJ Avatars are small? and you only have one of them?
  379. edhelas i'll have to limit en cleanup old files on my xmpp server as well
  380. ralphm MattJ: if avatars would expire, that be not be great
  381. MattJ ralphm, I agree
  382. MattJ But we're against indefinite hosting of stuff, and now we're making exceptions - I could upload a 6GB movie and claim it's my avatar
  383. MattJ Just trying to figure out what the rules should be
  384. ralphm MattJ: what a reasonable size is, is debatable, but it doesn't compare to typical media sharing behavior I witnessed at VEON, or in, say, WhatsApp
  385. smokeyy2000 has joined
  386. ralphm MattJ: I could imagine servers offering different "buckets" for different use cases. One for avatars (you can only have one, max this size, no expiry), v.s. media sharing (many, max total size, max expiry)
  387. zach has left
  388. zach has joined
  389. smokeyy2000 has left
  390. ralphm And that clients have to specify which bucket to use.
  391. Dele (Mobile) has left
  392. Dele (Mobile) has joined
  393. ralphm _also_, if you are sharing stuff from an existing storage service, like a picture that is also stored in Google Photos, maybe it would be much better to share by reference.
  394. stpeter has joined
  395. ralphm Then, the recipient's ability to go back and still retrieve the image is dependent on that service, instead of your server.
  396. ralphm Lastly, if you are concerned about your local archive, maybe servers should provide a way to copy and store media shared with you, and reference that from your MAM archive.
  397. Dele (Mobile) has left
  398. Dele (Mobile) has joined
  399. Shell has left
  400. Shell has joined
  401. jonas’ ralphm, re sharing by reference, that’s already "supported" by some clients (e.g. in poezio, you can /embed any URL instead of /upload local file)
  402. dwd sets avatar as 1Tb tarfile.
  403. jonas’ ex.:
  404. jonas’ https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9OhTPiCkYUo/U5GdYy8atqI/AAAAAAAAWDc/Fj6bsVE2K18/s1600/Well+thats+just+like+your+opinion+man.jpg
  405. Shell has left
  406. Shell has joined
  407. ralphm jonas’, yeah, so Gajim just shows a link, but Conversations shows the picture.
  408. ralphm I installed some Gajim plugins now. That helps.
  409. tao has joined
  410. mukt2 has joined
  411. jonas’ :)
  412. jonas’ (and JabberCat will simply OOB-tag any URL-only message)
  413. dwd I know that there's a group that resists any suggestion the XSF should make UI/UX mandates, but I'd really like to suggest renderings for some messages so we have an agreed way to send pictures etc.
  414. karoshi has left
  415. karoshi has joined
  416. Shell has left
  417. Shell has joined
  418. goffi has joined
  419. stpeter has left
  420. mukt2 has left
  421. zach has left
  422. zach has joined
  423. ralphm What if we'd call them Usability Considerations.
  424. ralphm What if we'd call them Usability Considerations?
  425. stpeter has joined
  426. sonny has joined
  427. Ge0rG Uability is faaaar out of the scope of the XSF
  428. !XSF_Martin has left
  429. Ge0rG Also I like the idea of mirroring shared files on the user's server, but the only problem it solves is when the remote file hoster has a shorter expiration than your MAM
  430. mukt2 has joined
  431. !XSF_Martin has joined
  432. ralphm Ge0rG, sure. But I control which server I use, and by extension what that expiration is. In my case: self-hosted ⇒ infinite.
  433. Ge0rG ralphm: yes, I understand that. But it doesn't scale to mere mortals
  434. sonny has left
  435. ralphm Ge0rG, as for usability being out of scope, I don't see any problem with people writing XEPs discussing usability aspects. Most people writing XEPs are not security experts, but still write Security Considerations. Anyone implementing a XEP still needs to make their own determination on security.
  436. zach has left
  437. zach has joined
  438. Ge0rG ralphm: that message contained a sarcasm element, but I forgot to add a legacy body. Sorry.
  439. ralphm E.g. when specifying Reactions, you can suggest how this can be / is typically rendered, in different types of clients (GUI, text-only, text-to-speech). Or point to a document like this: https://indieweb.org/reacji
  440. ralphm Ge0rG: I just responded as if it wasn't, as not every casual reader would be able to detect it.
  441. Zash Ge0rG: Like in Matrix, with some special URI scheme with some touple of server name and file id, retrieved from your own server always?
  442. stpeter has left
  443. Ge0rG Zash: something like that. would also close the ip leak to adversarial servers
  444. stpeter has joined
  445. Zash Server-hosted very strict proxy? Chained Proxy65? Magic?
  446. Zash has left
  447. Ge0rG apt install squid
  448. Zash has joined
  449. ralphm But with a stable cache.
  450. sonny has joined
  451. ralphm That persists after the original is gone.
  452. Ge0rG This is a can of worms.
  453. ralphm Sure.
  454. ralphm E.g. when signing individual messages
  455. Ge0rG But somebody wanted a quick&dirty solution to file sharing.
  456. calvin has joined
  457. stpeter has left
  458. j.r has left
  459. j.r has joined
  460. zach has left
  461. zach has joined
  462. pdurbin has joined
  463. lorddavidiii has left
  464. lorddavidiii has joined
  465. Shell has left
  466. Shell has joined
  467. mukt2 has left
  468. lorddavidiii has left
  469. Shell has left
  470. zach has left
  471. Shell has joined
  472. zach has joined
  473. krauq has left
  474. krauq has joined
  475. j.r has left
  476. j.r has joined
  477. mukt2 has joined
  478. Guus Is there an existing implementation of MAM that allows for keyword search? If so, what's the form field definition that's used for it? XEP-0313 doesn't specify that functionality (but does list an example 'urn:example:xmpp:free-text-search')
  479. Shell has left
  480. Shell has joined
  481. tao has left
  482. Guus I'm adding something for Openfire. Might as well re-use something existing.
  483. j.r has left
  484. j.r has joined
  485. Guus cc MattJ
  486. pdurbin has left
  487. Zash MAM that ships with Prosody doesn't have full text search
  488. Zash ejabberd might have?
  489. MattJ Guus, ejabberd has something, and I have a draft spec in my head
  490. Guus just need the field form definition for now 🙂
  491. mukt2 has left
  492. MattJ The main issue is that you have to do dumb search or specify what operators are supported
  493. MattJ Dumb search is fine for some users, but advanced search in e.g. Slack is quite helpful
  494. MattJ But they can be separate specs obviously
  495. ralphm I've been contemplating learning to program a Lua module to write a MAM module for Prosody.
  496. ralphm That uses Elasticsearch as backend.
  497. Guus I'm faking stuff by feeding it in a lucene query
  498. Guus simple keywords will work, but more elaborate lucene queries too (although you'd need to know the index fields)
  499. MattJ ralphm, you'd want to implement a storage module, we have an internal API which should map fairly nicely to ElasticSearch
  500. MattJ Guus, that's the kind of thing I wanted to avoid
  501. ralphm MattJ, are you aware of anyone doing this before?
  502. MattJ ralphm, I don't think so... it was somewhere on my todo list but everyone I've worked with has been fine with postgres for now so I never had an excuse to implement it
  503. neshtaxmpp has left
  504. ralphm I also need to figure out a way to sync my Gajim history /back/ to MAM.
  505. Ge0rG can't you just expose SQL?
  506. Zash Free-form WHERE clause?
  507. zach has left
  508. zach has joined
  509. mukt2 has joined
  510. Ge0rG free-form SQL
  511. Daniel XQL?
  512. Zash Mmmmm `UPDATE "users" SET 'admin' = 1 WHERE "username" = me`
  513. Guus urn:irf:xmpp:free-text-search it is!
  514. Zash irf?
  515. Guus ignite realtime foundation
  516. Zash Have you registered that?
  517. Daniel Guus, have you checked with ejabberd?
  518. Guus 4 minutes of googling didn't turn up anything of interest.
  519. derdaniel has joined
  520. mathieui has left
  521. Daniel give me a second; i know xml
  522. j.r has left
  523. j.r has joined
  524. Daniel the field is called 'withtext'
  525. Zash Not namespaced?
  526. Daniel nope
  527. Zash calls the registry police
  528. Guus withtext works for me.
  529. Guus thanks Daniel
  530. matkor has left
  531. MattJ Meh, very non-standard
  532. MattJ Form fields that aren't standard are meant to use Clark notation
  533. ralphm Yeah, don't invent your own URN namespace.
  534. MattJ withtext is not specified in any XEP or registrat
  535. MattJ withtext is not specified in any XEP or registry
  536. Zash MattJ, hm, does that example use clark notation? It probably should
  537. MattJ Maybe, but it's an example of what another XEP might define
  538. Guus I'm either going with compatibility with ejabberd, unless someone suggests a semi-futureproof alternative in the next few minutes.
  539. j.r has left
  540. mukt2 has left
  541. mukt2 has joined
  542. MattJ If it's just one implementation going rogue, fine, but if everyone follows it's kinda annoying
  543. j.r has joined
  544. MattJ Especially since your search syntax *isn't* plain text, but lucene
  545. MattJ so '{xmpp:openfire.org}withtext' or whatever you want
  546. j.r has left
  547. j.r has joined
  548. derdaniel has left
  549. mukt2 has left
  550. mukt2 has joined
  551. ralphm MattJ: what does plain text mean, exactly? Every implementation needs to interpret the query string somehow. A few examples: a) does the input get tokenized? b) do the tokens get stemmed? In which language? c) does a space mean AND or OR d) any other processing like case folding
  552. Zash Fields can have a description. Just paste the entire docs for your fts engine in there :)
  553. zach has left
  554. zach has joined
  555. Daniel technically it probably doesn’t matter much; you just take direct user input; and then depending on server users might see different results; but than can be ok
  556. Daniel i mean search doesn’t need to interop between multiple servers
  557. Guus it's kinda nice that you get somewhat similar results though
  558. dwd ralphm, What Daniel says. If you're asking for a plaintext search, then the interop point is that you can ask, not what results you get back (which is a QoI case).
  559. ralphm Daniel: Sure, but if you want to offer client-side assistance, like how Slack suggests search modifiers, then maybe it would be helpful to figure out how to relay that information.
  560. Guus Yeah, but it's annoying if you're in three different MUCs, and the search on your client yields different results based on the same syntax (eg: spaces result in an AND or OR query)
  561. Daniel well you could probably specificy low hanging fruit like "it means AND"; but i don’t think stemming needs to be the same across servers
  562. dwd Guus, How would you tell?
  563. mukt2 has left
  564. dwd Guus, I mean, unless they were interlinked MUCs via FMUC or something equally esoteric.
  565. Guus dwd: say I'd remember having a conversation, but forgot in what room. I'd like to use the same query on all rooms.
  566. Ge0rG dwd: you can't, so it's even more annoying
  567. Zash Local MUC history?
  568. Zash MIX!
  569. Zash MUIX
  570. dwd Surely any server with search that didn't find stuff in any obvious way would just get fixed?
  571. Guus surely. I'm currently fixing the fixes applied by the previous fixer.
  572. Guus eyes dwd
  573. Guus aaanyways
  574. Guus does this make anyone extremely unhappy?
  575. Guus form.addField("xmpp:irf:mam:free-text-search", "Free text search", FormField.Type.text_single);
  576. Guus (other than that it's Java)
  577. Zash Guus, that makes me unhappy
  578. Zash Oh, wait, not urn:
  579. Guus does this make anyone but Zash extremely unhappy?
  580. Shell has left
  581. Shell has joined
  582. jonas’ Guus, I’d prefer {urn:dns:openfire.org}free-text-search or something similar
  583. Zash or `{xmpp:openfire.org/stuff-maybe}free-text-search` like MattJ said earlier
  584. Daniel is urn:dns:mydomain a thing?
  585. jonas’ it is
  586. Zash is it?
  587. Daniel til
  588. Zash I don't see it in https://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces/urn-namespaces.xhtml
  589. jonas’ ah, dns:mydomain
  590. jonas’ not urn:dns:
  591. j.r has left
  592. jonas’ https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4501
  593. Zash or `urn:uuid:$(generate-uuid)` :)
  594. jonas’ or that, but that’s quite opaque
  595. Zash Nice for experiments tho
  596. jonas’ true
  597. Zash I had a thing that used a hash based UUID over its own source code.
  598. MattJ Great for interop
  599. Zash Yeah, either you have the same version or it doesn't work.
  600. ralphm urn:dns is silly for this, I think
  601. mukt2 has joined
  602. jonas’ urn:dns isn’t even a thihng
  603. ralphm Just use https URLs
  604. Zash No, use gopher: URLs!
  605. MattJ This is *definitely* the protocol developers' equivalent to bikeshedding
  606. Guus Yeah, I'm back at freetext.
  607. Zash Hold on let me find where ASN.1 namespaces are mounted into the urn: tree
  608. ralphm Yes, indeed, but using a non-registered URN namespace is just *wrong*.
  609. Guus or whittext or whatever it was that ejabberd did
  610. Zash urn:oid:1.stuff?
  611. MattJ Guus, you've had a number of acceptable suggestions, choose one or state why they aren't good enough
  612. zach has left
  613. mukt2 has left
  614. zach has joined
  615. MattJ xmpp:irf isn't acceptable because 'irf' isn't the address of an XMPP service
  616. Zash Unless you register the .irf TLD for 200k :)
  617. andrey.g has left
  618. ralphm And then still, single-label DNS names are, well, terrible.
  619. Guus Yeah, I'm going for the same as ejabberd until there's consensus.
  620. MattJ > 15:36:49 Zash> or `{xmpp:openfire.org/stuff-maybe}free-text-search` like MattJ said earlier
  621. ralphm Guus: what does ejabberd do?
  622. MattJ There won't be consensus because almost all the suggestions were valid options
  623. MattJ All more valid than 'withtext'
  624. Guus any client that currently supports the feature will probably use 'withtext'
  625. Guus ugly as hell, but at least that adds some functional value.
  626. Zash And thus we have another de-facto standard.
  627. MattJ With a different syntax
  628. MattJ Sigh
  629. Zash Thanks
  630. Ge0rG I suggest the eu.siacs.conversations.withtext namespace.
  631. ralphm :sob:
  632. sonny has left
  633. mukt2 has joined
  634. MattJ Guus, to be clear, it is XEP-0068 you are breaking by using 'withtext': https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0068.html#approach-fieldnames
  635. MattJ (and so is ejabberd, but it's not too late to save you)
  636. matkor has joined
  637. neshtaxmpp has joined
  638. Guus I'm happy to change it whenever there's consensus on something - a protoxep, or whatever. I've now had various suggestions that were all more or less desirable - I simply don't have the time to evaluate all options today.
  639. ralphm Guus: Indeed, please just use clark notation with an https URI.
  640. Guus stuff hasn't been released yet anyway
  641. MattJ Guus, the problem with protocols is once you do that, you're stuck with them... need I mention vcard-temp?
  642. ralphm Guus: it is more important to not do the things people said are definitely wrong. Including 'withtext' (unqualified), unregistered URN prefixes, stuff starting with 'urn:xmpp:' when the doc is not in our inbox.
  643. ralphm MattJ: or even jabber:
  644. Zash > need I mention vcard-temp? WHY WON'T IT DIE? I've been trying to push for vcard4 but everyone just uses more vcard-temp, like adding it to MUC :(
  645. ralphm inertia
  646. goffi has left
  647. mukt2 has left
  648. goffi has joined
  649. Zash But then XEP-0084 is sorta supported by everyone and Pidgin
  650. mukt2 has joined
  651. eevvoor has left
  652. zach has left
  653. zach has joined
  654. Dele (Mobile) has left
  655. Dele (Mobile) has joined
  656. Shell has left
  657. Shell has joined
  658. sonny has joined
  659. mukt2 has left
  660. lorddavidiii has joined
  661. sonny has left
  662. sonny has joined
  663. andrey.g has joined
  664. zach has left
  665. zach has joined
  666. debacle has left
  667. calvin has left
  668. Shell has left
  669. Shell has joined
  670. pdurbin has joined
  671. matkor has left
  672. mathijs has left
  673. mathijs has joined
  674. pdurbin has left
  675. mathijs has left
  676. mathijs has joined
  677. lovetox has joined
  678. zach has left
  679. zach has joined
  680. calvin has joined
  681. sonny has left
  682. calvin has left
  683. calvin has joined
  684. Yagiza has left
  685. Yagiza has joined
  686. Yagiza has left
  687. Yagiza has joined
  688. mathijs has left
  689. mathijs has joined
  690. sonny has joined
  691. Shell has left
  692. Shell has joined
  693. eevvoor has joined
  694. lovetox has left
  695. edhelas has left
  696. nyco has left
  697. zach has left
  698. zach has joined
  699. andy has left
  700. Shell has left
  701. Shell has joined
  702. andy has joined
  703. calvin has left
  704. calvin has joined
  705. edhelas has joined
  706. nyco has joined
  707. lovetox has joined
  708. eevvoor has left
  709. zach has left
  710. zach has joined
  711. Shell has left
  712. mukt2 has joined
  713. Shell has joined
  714. sonny has left
  715. serge90 has left
  716. serge90 has joined
  717. emus has left
  718. emus has joined
  719. stpeter has joined
  720. sonny has joined
  721. zach has left
  722. zach has joined
  723. Yagiza has left
  724. Yagiza has joined
  725. Shell has left
  726. Shell has joined
  727. j.r has joined
  728. sonny has left
  729. eevvoor has joined
  730. eevvoor has left
  731. calvin has left
  732. calvin has joined
  733. Wojtek has left
  734. zach has left
  735. zach has joined
  736. wurstsalat has left
  737. j.r has left
  738. Shell has left
  739. marc has left
  740. Shell has joined
  741. j.r has joined
  742. Dele (Mobile) has left
  743. j.r has left
  744. j.r has joined
  745. mukt2 has left
  746. zach has left
  747. zach has joined
  748. lorddavidiii has left
  749. pdurbin has joined
  750. lorddavidiii has joined
  751. marc has joined
  752. lorddavidiii has left
  753. lorddavidiii has joined
  754. pdurbin has left
  755. lorddavidiii has left
  756. zach has left
  757. zach has joined
  758. lorddavidiii has joined
  759. sonny has joined
  760. lorddavidiii has left
  761. debacle has joined
  762. genofire has left
  763. lorddavidiii has joined
  764. adiaholic has left
  765. adiaholic has joined
  766. genofire has joined
  767. lorddavidiii has left
  768. lorddavidiii has joined
  769. genofire has left
  770. tao has joined
  771. tao has left
  772. calvin has left
  773. zach has left
  774. zach has joined
  775. genofire has joined
  776. marc has left
  777. sonny has left
  778. lorddavidiii has left
  779. tao has joined
  780. tao has left
  781. lorddavidiii has joined
  782. lovetox has left
  783. zach has left
  784. zach has joined
  785. genofire has left
  786. Shell has left
  787. Shell has joined
  788. lovetox has joined
  789. genofire has joined
  790. stpeter has left
  791. Yagiza has left
  792. matkor has joined
  793. j.r has left
  794. j.r has joined
  795. j.r has left
  796. zach has left
  797. zach has joined
  798. genofire has left
  799. j.r has joined
  800. Shell has left
  801. Shell has joined
  802. adiaholic has left
  803. adiaholic has joined
  804. genofire has joined
  805. matkor has left
  806. sonny has joined
  807. Shell has left
  808. Shell has joined
  809. Douglas Terabyte has left
  810. krauq has left
  811. krauq has joined
  812. adiaholic has left
  813. adiaholic has joined
  814. pdurbin has joined
  815. sonny has left
  816. zach has left
  817. zach has joined
  818. pdurbin has left
  819. Nekit has left
  820. a has left
  821. a has joined
  822. eevvoor has joined
  823. waqas has joined
  824. j.r has left
  825. j.r has joined
  826. krauq has left
  827. Shell has left
  828. Shell has joined
  829. krauq has joined
  830. zach has left
  831. zach has joined
  832. karoshi has left
  833. karoshi has joined
  834. mr.fister has joined
  835. zach has left
  836. zach has joined
  837. goffi has left
  838. stpeter has joined
  839. Tobias has left
  840. adiaholic has left
  841. Shell has left
  842. Shell has joined
  843. tao has joined
  844. tao has left
  845. Shell has left
  846. Shell has joined
  847. Douglas Terabyte has joined
  848. sonny has joined
  849. debacle has left
  850. Tobias has joined
  851. zach has left
  852. zach has joined
  853. sonny has left
  854. Shell has left
  855. Shell has joined
  856. Tobias has left
  857. eevvoor has left
  858. sonny has joined
  859. goffi has joined
  860. sonny has left
  861. Shell has left
  862. Shell has joined
  863. !XSF_Martin has left
  864. !XSF_Martin has joined
  865. Douglas Terabyte has left
  866. marc has joined
  867. goffi has left
  868. pdurbin has joined
  869. waqas has left
  870. stpeter has left
  871. karoshi has left
  872. Douglas Terabyte has joined
  873. marc has left
  874. lorddavidiii has left
  875. emus has left
  876. Shell has left
  877. Shell has joined
  878. emus has joined
  879. pdurbin has left
  880. lorddavidiii has joined
  881. lorddavidiii has left
  882. lorddavidiii has joined
  883. Shell has left
  884. Shell has joined
  885. lovetox has left
  886. APach has left
  887. APach has joined
  888. emus has left
  889. stpeter has joined
  890. Zash has left
  891. debacle has joined
  892. sonny has joined
  893. lorddavidiii has left
  894. Zash has joined
  895. lorddavidiii has joined
  896. lorddavidiii has left
  897. Shell has left
  898. Shell has joined
  899. lorddavidiii has joined
  900. sonny has left
  901. lorddavidiii has left
  902. lorddavidiii has joined
  903. lorddavidiii has left
  904. lorddavidiii has joined
  905. lorddavidiii has left
  906. lorddavidiii has joined
  907. zach has left
  908. zach has joined
  909. sonny has joined
  910. !XSF_Martin has left
  911. Douglas Terabyte has left
  912. !XSF_Martin has joined
  913. Douglas Terabyte has joined
  914. paul has left