XSF Discussion - 2020-01-21

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  179. Guus Are there public records of OWS pursuing legal action against people using libsignal while not adhering to GPL?
  180. Ge0rG Guus: like https://medium.com/@wireapp/axolotl-and-proteus-788519b186a7
  181. jonas’ (technically, not using libsignal while not adhering to GPL though)
  182. jonas’ (but re-implementing libsignal while not adheering to GPL)
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  186. Guus moar! moar!
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  189. jonas’ Guus, context?
  190. Guus I don't want to say stuff about OWS enforcing GPL without proof to back it up.
  191. jonas’ Guus, then I think that @wireapp thing is what you need
  192. jonas’ because assuming or suggesting that OWS not enforing GPL on direct uses of libsignal is definitely not a good idea either way
  193. jonas’ because assuming or suggesting that OWS is not enforing GPL on direct uses of libsignal is definitely not a good idea either way
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  195. jonas’ that they enforce GPL on derivates or users of libsignal should be the default
  196. jonas’ the main issue here is that they also enforce GPL on reimplementations, which is what @wireapp shows
  197. jonas’ or am I totally on the wrong track right now?
  198. Guus No, you're not. I'd just like to see more documented cases.
  199. jonas’ ok
  200. Guus Thanks!
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  202. jonas’ (I don’t have any more, tho)
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  207. pep. Has anybody actually tried a clean-room implementation?
  208. pep. is that what wire tried to do?
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  211. ralphm Of interest: https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/messaging/2016/002275.html
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  214. ralphm Ge0rG, and for what it is worth, Wire sued OWS, and then there was a settlement. Also, Wire's stuff is still GPL3.
  215. jonas’ pep., according to https://medium.com/@wireapp/axolotl-and-proteus-788519b186a7, I think so
  216. jonas’ > Like everyone else in the cryptographic community, our team obviously had access to OWS’ GPL’d Java reference implementation online.
  217. jonas’ well, ok, maybe not
  218. pep. the article does mention the gpl'd code yeah
  219. ralphm The thread I linked also has Moxie in it somewhere.
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  222. Guus Thanks.
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  225. ralphm In any case, you'll see that SilentCircle pulled libsalamander in favour of libzina.
  226. MattJ The reply from Moxie in that thread basically says they only care about the trademark
  227. jonas’ (which is part of the evil constants)
  228. MattJ Ah
  229. MattJ Fun
  230. MattJ But even GPL doesn't save you from that
  231. jonas’ I wonder if that was all planned out from the beginning or just a lucky coincidence.
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  233. ralphm The protocol includes constants with 'signal' in them, no? It seems to me that OWS considers any protocol-compatible implementation to be a derivative work.
  234. jonas’ ralphm, WhisperSystems even
  235. ralphm ah, nice
  236. ralphm of course XMPP has literal occurances of 'jabber', but at least there's an arrangement with the XSF for this.
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  238. dwd ralphm, As I recall, that caused a lot of wrangling in the IETF.
  239. dwd ralphm, Not least the name of the protocol changed.
  240. ralphm dwd: I thought that XMPP was actually proposed by Jabber, Inc.
  241. fippo nah, i think the ietf concluded that having a protocol and a trademark was not going to work. smart. I am looking at you, w3c+webrtc...
  242. dwd I don't know where the name came from. I do know that the IETF got very concerned about a protocol name being trademarked.
  243. ralphm dwd: interestingly, the first draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-core-00) had this notice: 1.4 Intellectual Property Notice This document is in full compliance with all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026. Parts of this specification use the term "jabber" for identifying namespaces and other protocol syntax. Jabber[tm] is a registered trademark of Jabber, Inc. Jabber, Inc. grants permission to the IETF for use of the Jabber trademark in association with this specification and its successors, if any.
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  247. dwd Dear Editors. I'm sorry-not-sorry.
  248. ralphm I tried to look at the old xmppwg mail archives, but it seems that our mailman doesn't show them (anymore).
  249. ralphm MattJ, are they still there?
  250. Zash Our mailman?
  251. ralphm (they used to be here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/xmppwg/)
  252. dwd Guus, You might care about this: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/883
  253. Zash I didn't know this
  254. Guus Thanks Dave 🙂
  255. Zash What has Dave done now?
  256. Guus Be a gentleman.
  257. ralphm Zash, yeah, the xmppwg mailinglist (first WG) was initially hosted by the JSF.
  258. dwd Another two ProtoXEPs. Given my current success rate, I'm not sure why I bother, but still.
  259. MattJ dwd: thanks, that's an item off my to-do :)
  260. MattJ dwd: for what it's worth my plan was to spec two fields, a universal "plain" search and an "advanced" variant that is implementation/deployment-specific but includes a slot for the server to provide some (localized) help text that clients could display to users
  261. MattJ See the popup when you enter the search box in Slack for example
  262. Zash {jabber❌data}desc ?
  263. jonas’ with the emoji?
  264. Zash Yes
  265. ralphm Interestingly around that time also a lot of e2e discussion (for RFC 3923)
  266. MattJ Possible
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  268. fippo ralphm: IIRC peter once said that he wasn't aware of any implementations of 3923. It was more of a mandated checkbox because of the IMPS-requirements
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  273. ralphm It was, but it still had a lot of discussion
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  278. ralphm dwd: small typo in PR 883, reviewed.
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  280. dwd Ah, crap. Yep.
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  328. pep. https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/mission Is it possible to find context around this? I've been skimming through the member list without success. Added in a71bc1df7a100a72b9e840c2a7308668fa385e32 on Sun Jul 26 23:41:33 2015 -0700 by Adam Brault
  329. pep. https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/mission Is it possible to get context around this? I've been skimming through the member list without success. Added in a71bc1df7a100a72b9e840c2a7308668fa385e32 on Sun Jul 26 23:41:33 2015 -0700 by Adam Brault
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  336. pep. Reading old threads makes me feel like we're a broken record
  337. pep. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2014-November/007920.html "Abstaining on XSF ballots"
  338. pep. Ah, there's https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2014-November/007932.html "Goals for the XSF board". Not sure if that's what lead to the mission statement, but that's probably worth reading anyway
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  353. ralphm pep., in 2015 the entire website was redone
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  355. ralphm The origin of this page is in 2007.
  356. pep. I see
  357. ralphm I.e. that's how far I've traced it back for now.
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  359. ralphm Because I think it is even older, and Jan 2007 was an earlier website overhaul
  360. ralphm I.e. this is when our site moved to xmpp.org
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  363. ralphm pep., this page used to be on jabber.org, and virtually hasn't changed since the fall of 2003.
  364. ralphm http://web.archive.org/web/20031011082930/http://www.jabber.org/jsf/
  365. ralphm Apart from the typo in the current version, it still pretty much captures what I think we should be doing.
  366. pep. Thanks for digging it up
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  370. ralphm If you want drama, that's the best era, I think.
  371. pep. not looking for drama no
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  412. jonas’ > ProtoXEP: Inbox
  413. jonas’ interesting!
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  473. dwd Yeah, I got around to it eventually, and knocked out the full text thing while I was in the right place. Thanks for processing those.
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  476. jonas’ dwd, you’re also not in council@ at the moment, so I tell you here: my calendar lied to me and I’ll be able to chair tomorrow
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  483. dwd Excellent.
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  516. flow does anyone do extended stanza adressing over s2s? If not, wouldn't it be a nice way to reduce the bandwith? I assume for example there to be some presence dupes over s2s links
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  524. Guus I don't think Openfire does that, flow .
  525. Guus Interesting thought though
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  530. Zash IIRC the main issue I ran into was needing to disc#info remote servers and preferably caching the response, and Prosody barelay had PEP-specific bits for that at the time.
  531. Zash Is bandwidth that much of an issue for servers tho?
  532. Zash Over STANAG maybe
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  534. Zash And you get more benefits the fewer and larger servers there are. Not sure that's the direction I want to focus on.
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  536. flow Zash, I see your point. I just like to theorize about potential optimizations. I also think that this could easily lead to stanza-size issues
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  540. Zash flow: I'm partial for XEP-0288 myself. Reducing the number of s2s connections reduces memory usage and CPU-intensive TLS handshakes.
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  548. flow Zash, why only "partial"?
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  551. Zash flow: s/I'm partial for/I like/
  552. Zash Something something preference for
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  578. pep. There's some obvious irony or sarcasm that I'm not getting in the fulltext protoxep
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  581. pep. Is it just to start a discussion?
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  592. Daniel pep.: have you been here for yesterday's discussion with Guus?
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  601. pep. I was. Have you read the document?
  602. Daniel Yes
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  604. Daniel It's very dave
  605. pep. k
  606. Guus It serves the purpose.
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  618. larma Guus, what is the purpose?
  619. larma Just registering a standard name for the field to abandon it later because actually using it in a standard at some point would cause incompatibilites?
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  621. Guus Yes, no.
  622. Guus At least have a standard name with a defined set of functionality.
  623. larma I am missing the defined set of functionality in that ProtoXEP...
  624. larma I mostly read: don't use me because my behavior is undefined
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  653. MattJ Maybe a defined field with undefined behaviour is better than an undefined field with undefined behaviour
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  657. pep. Does it help with interoperability? Or is it even less useful than {xmpp:private.foo/mam-fulltext}fulltext? (as behaviour is undefined anyway)
  658. MattJ I'd like to expand it as I said yesterday, so it would have two fields
  659. MattJ One defined, one undefined
  660. Daniel well having a defined undefined field is certainly better than everyone using the undefined 'withtext'
  661. pep. The name of that field is obviously bad (no namespace), but how is as single defined undefined field better?
  662. Daniel it allows clients to implement search
  663. Daniel server side search (obviously)
  664. pep. with undefined behaviour
  665. Daniel yes
  666. MattJ That's evidently good enough for some people/use-cases
  667. Daniel to me that's good enough
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  670. pep. k
  671. Daniel i mean in practice it won’t be that undefined
  672. pep. Well yes, the XEP says so :P
  673. Daniel i mean it says you can return nothing but then you have to buy everyone beer; which is like a total logistical nightmare
  674. pep. In practice it'll be somewhat undefined rules floating around
  675. Daniel i don’t think anyone would go through with that
  676. pep. Which is a nightmare for the external dev
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  682. larma It's probably fine as long as you only send [A-Za-z0-9]+ 😉
  683. MattJ and don't send the words NOT, AND or OR
  684. larma even then it's unclear if it only searches in body or the full XML
  685. larma so you might see very unexpected results
  686. pep. And content doesn't only sit in body either
  687. larma Yeah, that too
  688. larma I can't imagine a proper UX for that
  689. larma at least nothing that could compete with Dino search UX 😉
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