XSF Discussion - 2020-01-23

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  313. Guus is using an empty <before> element in a RSM request a spec'ed way to request for the 'last' page of a result set?
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  318. lovetox yes
  319. lovetox its described in the RSM XEP
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  322. Guus https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html ?
  323. Guus can't find it there
  324. MattJ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html#last
  325. Guus do'h!
  326. Guus d'oh?
  327. Guus bah!
  328. Guus thanks.
  329. MattJ It's ok, it's still early in the morning :)
  330. Guus off to find more coffee
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  332. Ge0rG got some coffee already, and travelled 150km
  333. jonas’ I don’t envy you
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  336. MattJ Is that a long way?
  337. jonas’ it’s more than the 7 km or so I commute to work
  338. MattJ 93 Great British Miles, so yeah quite far
  339. Guus https://igniterealtime.org:443/httpfileupload/747e77fb-3cd9-4f54-ba4e-c6309947f2af/image.png
  340. jonas’ lol
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  342. Ge0rG my usual commute to work is measured in meters, not in kilometers
  343. jonas’ 7 km is a bit above the average for my commute to work in the last year. I had home office a few times.
  344. Ge0rG hm. when I divide the kilometers driven last year by working days, I have a daily average of ~43km. That's rather high, and it doesn't even count in the railway kilometers.
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  347. jonas’ Pendlerpauschale!
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  353. Guus I used to commute 1000km a week. I've learned that the time lost in commute, not so much distance, annoyed me more.
  354. Guus it's so... pointless.
  355. Guus For the past few years, I'm working remote - saves me 2 to 3 hours a day that I can spend on things that are more enjoying than sitting somewhere, waiting to arrive somewhere else.
  356. jonas’ I’m using commute time for reading up on stuff nowadays
  357. Guus (I did have ~one year of commute by bicycle, which was good for clearing my head / getting in shape (less out-of-shape) - that was good too).
  358. jonas’ I imagine
  359. jonas’ cycling is kind of a suicide mission here tho
  360. jonas’ waaay too many high-traffic roads without dedicated cyclist lanes
  361. Guus Yeah, I was driving myself. Reading while operating a vehicle is frowned upon, generally. Never got into audiobooks - although I was very up-to-speed with current affairs through radio shows.
  362. Guus Yeah, I've learned that. Once drove over what i thought was a dedicated cyclist lane in Germany, which turned out to be the emergency shoulder of a highway.
  363. jonas’ driving yourself sounds like an ecological nightmare in addition to the waste of time
  364. jonas’ holy smokes
  365. Guus there was a colonne of military vehicles passing us. Every. Single. One. Used. Its. Horn. On. Us.
  366. jonas’ yeah, cyclists on the highway is also something which gets mentioned in radio traffic reports
  367. jonas’ but now I get *why* you’d even do that -- thinking that the emergency stuff was for cyclists
  368. Guus Yeah, that's not done here too. But we got confused by first having been on what actually was a dedicated bike path on a very similar road.
  369. Guus In the Netherlands, things are very clear to me, in that respect.
  370. Guus Also, this was 20 years ago 🙂
  371. Guus oh, being self-employed and being able to deduct travel from taxes should give me a nice way to see how much I travelled (for work) last year.
  372. Guus just under 120 hours.
  373. jonas’ so that’s probably less than I commuted last year
  374. jonas’ which is by approximation in the order of 140-180h
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  380. Guus I travelled just over 10,000km last year
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  383. jonas’ in those 120h?
  384. Ge0rG I try not to travel more than I have podcasts in my subscription
  385. Guus I have two customers that are both relatively far away (~140km one-way). I'm visiting one of them once a month, and the other once a week, when I have an active project with them.
  386. jonas’ I’m in the order of 3200km, so your travel is *much* faster than mine :D
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  389. Guus yeah those km and hours correlate to each-other.
  390. Guus most of it is highway.
  391. jonas’ (which isn’t surprising, because I’m commuting from one end of the city to the other)
  392. jonas’ (via public transport, which is okay, but mostly blocked by rush hour individual traffic)
  393. Guus 10430/120 = 87km/h
  394. Guus makes sense.
  395. Ge0rG I hope I'll be driving a BEV two weeks from now, so that I can still commute by individual transport but not have such a bad consciencs
  396. Ge0rG I hope I'll be driving a BEV two weeks from now, so that I can still commute by individual transport but not have such a bad conscience
  397. Guus BEV?
  398. Ge0rG Guus: battery-electric vehicle (of course only charged by regenerative energy sources)
  399. Guus ah right.
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  401. Guus I'm on regular petrol - next car probably will be an electric one as well.
  402. Guus still - 10,000k is a dramatic improvement over a few years ago for me 🙂
  403. Guus still - 10,000km is a dramatic improvement over a few years ago for me 🙂
  404. jonas’ silently points at burning australia.
  405. Guus Not arguing that more should be done.
  406. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure that what's happening now all over the world is the beginning of the Apocalypse.
  407. jonas’ yeah -- I’ve been in a fun discussion the other day and it’s echoing back
  408. jonas’ "Jesus will save us" was the tip of the iceberg
  409. jonas’ but we’re getting lots of off-topic now :)
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  411. Ge0rG jonas’: Jesus will save us from that, too
  412. jonas’ from the off-topic?
  413. Ge0rG sure
  414. jonas’ I thought our lord and saviour for off-topic was xmpp:xmpp@chat.yax.im?join ?
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  419. Guus I'm very interested in what will happen in the Netherlands in the next few months. Somewhere in March I think, the speed limit is dropped from 130km/h to 100, in order to reduce emissions.
  420. Guus I wonder what that does for not just the emissions, but also traffic jams, injuries, etc.
  421. jonas’ yeah
  422. jonas’ also, kudos to the netherlands
  423. jonas’ even thinking out loud about introducing a 130 km/h speed limit gets you on the kill-list as a politician on Germany :)
  424. Ge0rG jonas’: you shouldn't be making fun of it. Politician kill-lists are a real thing in Germany
  425. Guus It's a grudgedly applied limit, because we suddenly found out we had to stop all kinds of developments due to to high emission levels.
  426. jonas’ Ge0rG, I know.
  427. jonas’ Guus, ah, germany simply doesn’t care.
  428. Guus I think the average commute in the Netherlands is 20km or something
  429. Seve wow 100km/h, so slow Guus
  430. jonas’ "we’ll deal with the trials when they happen" or something
  431. Guus Germany obviously is bigger.
  432. Ge0rG I would love to see a speed limit on Die Autobahn, even just because my BEV will be capped to 167km/h
  433. Guus 100km/h is slow, yes. No-one really likes it, and I wonder if it will hold up at all. But it's the least worst thing that they could do, at this point.
  434. Guus also, the limit does not apply at night, I think.
  435. Kev Well, that bit makes sense at least. Stop people being used to driving at speed, and then tell them the only time they're allowed to do it is overnight when they're driving tired.
  436. Ge0rG Kev: it's only to support natural selection.
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  438. Zash 120km/h is the highest speed limit in Sweden.
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  440. Guus 100km/h is slow, yes. No-one really likes it, and I wonder if it will hold up at all. But it's the least unpopular thing that they could do, at this point.
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  482. debacle I wonder, if XEP-0157: Contact Addresses for XMPP Services should standardize the address of the data protection officer. Because of GDPR and IMHO none of the standardized roles seems to fit. E.g. <field var='data-protection-addresses' type='list-multi' label='One or more addresses for data protection and privacy'/> I didn't check the related RFCs for such things, though. And maybe we can standardize the address of motorway traffic police officer, too.
  483. Ge0rG motorwhat?
  484. debacle Autobahn!
  485. jonas’ they had a group called autobahn
  486. jonas’ technopop
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  488. !XSF_Martin With the Album Nagelbrett or so.
  489. !XSF_Martin The dude abides!
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  492. Guus Kraftwerk!
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  495. jonas’ Kampfhund!
  496. !XSF_Martin https://proxy.mdosch.de/?mortyurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.qwant.com%2Fthumbr%2F200x200%2Fe%2Ff%2F1efb1083c05fbb5ac43e5005853f9ca02e1ede3e01aa08a979338d406b320d%2Fbig-lebowski-autobahn-nagelbett2-1856.jpg%3Fu%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252F3.bp.blogspot.com%252F-p9_oyJzTjAw%252FUuk01RDzdeI%252FAAAAAAAAWaE%252Fq5S3o5oev9I%252Fs1600%252Fbig-lebowski-autobahn-nagelbett2-1856.jpg%26q%3D0%26b%3D1%26p%3D0%26a%3D0%26b_id%3DOIP.ouLprTXlo81s_QO-m1hF0wHaHa&mortyhash=77c57ead43440344f9b841078413628118bd2e6f6b37ab7256e9a841d2dd93a0
  497. jonas’ > proxy.mdosch.de?
  498. !XSF_Martin For my searx
  499. jubalh has joined
  500. jonas’ it’s been too long since I watched the Big Lebowski
  501. !XSF_Martin So I can preview results in image searx without leaking my ip and search term to a lot of websites. 😃
  502. jonas’ so now we all leak our IPs to you?
  503. !XSF_Martin 😈
  504. Zash Standardized server-provided previews?
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  506. !XSF_Martin I already know your ip, see: https://ip.mdosch.de
  507. !XSF_Martin > Standardized server-provided previews? What? Searx is using the Morty proxy on the image search result page.
  508. Ge0rG this has completely derailed
  509. !XSF_Martin Uh, this is xsf. Felt like Schrödinger's. 😂
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  557. nyco Late
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  559. pep. !
  560. ralphm bangs gavel
  561. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  562. ralphm waves
  563. Seve says hi
  564. ralphm Welcome all. Who do we have? Do you have an agenda item?
  565. nyco https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9elq-XSFBoardWeeklyMeeting-2020-01-23-zzbs
  566. Guus o/
  567. pep. No agenda item right now. There are things I need to send.. soon(tm)
  568. ralphm DO we have a MattJ?
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  571. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  572. MattJ Hey
  573. ralphm Thanks nyco!
  574. ralphm 2. XSF Objectives
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  577. ralphm The PR that's still listed on our Trello has since been retracted, in favor of an offer to make XEP-0001 a bit clearer.
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  580. ralphm I believe one of the issues was that XEP-0001 doesn't clearly (enough) document or reference what we believe to be an open standard.
  581. ralphm Working from what is written in our IPR Policy, I believe we should be able to resolve that unclarity.
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  583. Guus I don't think it'd hurt much to clarify things, if we can do that without adding so much prose that that in itself opens things up for interpretation.
  584. Guus iirc, Kev volunteered to make a suggestion for an improvement, after a time of reflection.
  585. ralphm RIght.
  586. Kev Right.
  587. ralphm So I think we can close this item for the time being.
  588. pep. For this kind of soul-seeking process I'd like to involve members. If we get to something board thinks is ok, then propose it for a vote or sth
  589. Guus I don't think that's needed.
  590. pep. searching*?
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  592. Kev I'm not looking to suggest a change to process, just a clarification to XEP1 of what our process already is.
  593. pep. Guus, why not?
  594. Guus as I assume Kev is going to write up a more specific definition of what Ralph, Dave, me and others understand to be the definition as how we interpret it today.
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  596. Kev (We might, subsequently, decide we want to change our process, but one step at a time)
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  598. ralphm pep., IMO, I don't think we need to be soul-seeking. The XSF has been pretty consistent in their interpretation of what constitutes an open standard, in our IPR, FAQ and Mission statement. Documenting that clearly in XEP-0001, however, is useful.
  599. Kev And I have to vanish now. Will read the minutes.
  600. pep. Even just "clarifying" something possibly changes what people were picturing
  601. Guus I think Kev's approach is sensible: clearly document what we have, and decide if we want to change that only afterwards.
  602. pep. Different minds, different ways to interpret things
  603. pep. etc. etc.
  604. MattJ As Kev/etc. said, I'm with documenting the current state of things
  605. ralphm Indeed
  606. MattJ Changes are a separate discussion
  607. pep. I'm not saying I'm against documenting things, note
  608. pep. Just that I don't think it's possible to solely "document" this kind of things. Anyway I'll wait to see what comes out
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  611. Guus Let's see what Kev comes up with. We'll have to vote on it to merge that change anyway.
  612. SubPub has left
  613. Guus Let's not over-engineer this to much.
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  615. ralphm Thanks
  616. Seve Super :)
  617. ralphm 2. XMPP Summit / FOSDEM
  618. matkor has left
  619. ralphm Things are well on their way, with various people involved in getting this organized again.
  620. Guus (scam hat on) did everyone receive the dinner invitation?
  621. ralphm I did.
  622. MattJ Yep
  623. Guus it should have gone out to members and summit mailinglists.
  624. Guus cool
  625. ralphm For those reading these logs and/or minutes: please register for the XSF Dinner.
  626. emus has joined
  627. Guus Unsure if we need to discuss more around these events in this meeting?
  628. Guus (happy to, unsure what)
  629. ralphm nothing in particular
  630. ralphm Other than to mention that we will not have a Board meeting next week.
  631. Guus right.
  632. ralphm 3. GSoC
  633. ralphm I was curious if there are any updates.
  634. Guus For those reading these logs and/or minutes: please have your name added to the wiki page if you attend the summit. I'll use that for the guest list at Cisco's.
  635. ralphm Thanks Guus
  636. Guus flow registered us as an organisation
  637. Guus iirc, him and larma are signed up as an org admin. He asked me to sign up as one too, in the understanding that I'd be a backup only.
  638. Guus I did that.
  639. larma we still have to fill profile details before the application is considered complete
  640. larma deadline for that is Feb 5
  641. ralphm larma: also Project Ideas, right?
  642. Guus At that time, we should have project ideas ready, right?
  643. Guus In any case: projects that want to join should start preparing.
  644. larma We only need to have the page with profile ideas, which already exists. I know some orgs were accepted in the past without a proper ideas page, but it's better to have it filled by then
  645. Guus it doesn't hurt to have a list of teaser tasks, etc.
  646. ralphm larma: agreed. Hereby another reminder for our community to add more ideas on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GSoC/2020/Project_Ideas
  647. Guus that will all reflect better on our application.
  648. Guus larma / flow maybe it'd be good if you guys explicitly poke projects for those?
  649. Guus the better the quality of our proposal, the higher the chances that we get accepted.
  650. larma Guus, sure, openfire and smack already have their list linked
  651. ralphm 4. AOB I would be happy for today's meeting to be short, and hope to see many of you next week.
  652. MattJ None here
  653. pep. none
  654. Seve None :)
  655. Guus None here
  656. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  657. ralphm +2W
  658. ralphm 6. Close
  659. ralphm Thanks all!
  660. ralphm bangs gavel
  661. pep. Thanks.
  662. edhelas yup
  663. Guus oh, forgot something
  664. MattJ Too late!
  665. pep. Guus, please send on the list if possible :)
  666. pep. If it's not urgent
  667. Guus needs to be done before summit
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  670. Guus I'll take it to the list.
  671. ralphm what?
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  677. Guus Dave doing MC at summit (with keV)
  678. Guus Dwd asked for board to explicitly discuss him acting in that role
  679. pep. As I said in scam@ I'm +1. And we can also take that to the list and have board vote there until next week. If people are already gone?
  680. Guus Context is the discussion about the definition of "open standard" and "omemo" that happened, and how he took a position. Dave wondered if that made it undesirable for him to act as an MC.
  681. Guus He explicitly asked me to put that before board.
  682. Guus dwd - feel free to chime in.
  683. Guus Dave and me discussed this before Kev changed his availability status at the summit from 'online' to 'in-the-room'. Kev, as previous years, offered to lead the troops at the summit. As I understand things, Dave and Kev discussed doing it together, this year.
  684. Guus All of this is already a lot more formal than I wanted to be "pick someone that takes point" to be.
  685. Guus I think it suffices for board to answer Dave's question if they have objections on Dave acting as a master of ceremony at the upcoming Summit. I'd like to leave it at that.
  686. MattJ I think many people "took a position" in the discussions, I don't have any objections
  687. Guus I for one don't see any issue. If taking a position in an argument disqualifies you from doing anything like this, we have bigger issues.
  688. pep. #freespeach #censorship
  689. pep. speech.
  690. pep. Always miss this one
  691. Guus Seve ralphm ?
  692. moparisthebest I feel the need to pipe in here, no hard feelings on my end at all, people have different opinions and that's perfectly fine
  693. Guus Thanks moparisthebest
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  695. Guus dwd please let me know if this satisfies your request. If not, we can take it to a mailinglist.
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  697. Guus sorry for not bringing this up during the meeting - that would've been better.
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  701. moparisthebest judging by the text I've read from dwd , him MC'ing sounds hilarious :) on that topic is there going to be a live stream ?
  702. jonas’ what’s MC?
  703. jonas’ I suppose it’s not about MC as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymNFyxvIdaM
  704. moparisthebest I still regularly link people to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/The_Knight :)
  705. moparisthebest jonas’, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_ceremonies
  706. jonas’ !
  707. Seve I'm sorry, it sounds as I'm not aware of this (Dave being MC for this summit). Is it in a mailinglist? Or it has been in this room?
  708. Guus Seve it was not discussed outside of Scam, I think
  709. Seve Last thing I know was Kev was not able to make it to the Summit this year, but now I see it looks like he can? :D
  710. Seve Ah I see
  711. Guus This hardly is an official position
  712. Guus we might as well push someone forward during the first hour of the summit - but it helps to get things going of we pick someone before then.
  713. Guus Like I said: this entire discussion now is a lot more formal than what I think is needed.
  714. Seve I think it is very worth having this already decided as Summit time always ends up being too short. Depends on how serious we want this to be :) This is a subjective opinion as I don't know how Dave is as a MC, but just to not make this message longer, I would go with him if he stepped up for this. It depends now on the audience if he is too humorous haha :) But yeah, I like him and this, again, is subjective :P
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  718. ralphm I am personally just happy that someone wants to share the Summit and don't care if it is Kev or Dave or both in turns.
  719. ralphm I also don't think Board should have an opinion on it.
  720. Guus he asked.
  721. ralphm And I answered. Though maybe differently than dwd wanted.
  722. Kev FWIW, I do think it's good for Board to at least approve the Chair, and when I offered to Chair I hadn't realised that Dave wanted to do it.
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  724. ralphm I approve of Kev and/or Dave.
  725. Kev I was offering, rather than asking, Dave very much wants to do it, IIUC, so I'm happy for Board to say Dave, or Board to say Dave/Kev to work out between themselves, or whatever.
  726. adiaholic has left
  727. Kev But as Dave wants to, I'm not intending interfering.
  728. adiaholic has joined
  729. Kev (Sorry, was out, am now back)
  730. Guus I'm with ralphm on this one.
  731. ralphm Ok, when we get tired of the voice of Dave, it is good to know there's a backup :-)
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  734. Kev (Unless Dave does a terrible job, in which case I'll attempt a coup, but I don't anticipate that :D)
  735. Guus We'll bring the rotten tomatoes to support your cause.
  736. ralphm I love a good coup d'état.
  737. pep. prepares the pitchfork
  738. moparisthebest how do you run someone off the stage at the XSF summit? throw some JSON printouts at them?
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  740. ralphm Ooh, I could bring my XEP-0060 printout.
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  742. Seve Say, "Is this the Matrix discussion room" while going in
  743. Guus I'm fairly sure Dave would be resistant to most of that.
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  745. ralphm Seve: oh, I should have given Matthew Hodgson a heads-up.
  746. Guus threaten to remove bacon from breakfast, however, might be effective.
  747. moparisthebest too far
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  887. Ge0rG marc: FYI re XEP-0401: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-January/036913.html
  888. Ge0rG Also XEP-0401 at work here: https://georg.lukas.pro/picture.php?/708/category/xmpp
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  892. Zash Neat!
  893. debacle has joined
  894. marc Ge0rG, awesome!
  895. Ge0rG marc: the invitation module is live on yax.im
  896. Daniel Ge0rG: you can also add the same play store referrer for the Conversations on that landing page if you haven't already
  897. Ge0rG Daniel: I had to quirk around the new play installer library, it crashed the Play app with an xmpp: URI
  898. Ge0rG Daniel: so I switched to "https://yax.im/i/%23" + jid + params
  899. Daniel Didn't have any problems with that
  900. Ge0rG Daniel: a referrerized version of the landing page is on https://yaxim.org/invite/
  901. Ge0rG Daniel: maybe the Play client on my Android 6 is too old?
  902. Ge0rG I had a bunch of crashes and dubious Play errors when trying to record that video
  903. Ge0rG what you see is the sixth or so attempt
  904. marc Ge0rG, awesome, tbh I dislike the current implementation (separate IQ) but since end users don't care we can implement a proper version based on SASL in parallel?
  905. Ge0rG marc: based on SASL2. SASL isn't flexible enough
  906. Ge0rG marc: and SASL2 is early beta at best
  907. marc Ge0rG, I meant SASL2 ;)
  908. Ge0rG somebody ought to work on it
  909. Ge0rG marc: I'm sure we can add a SASL2 flow into 0401 when SASL2 is ready
  910. Guus Please add yourself to the list of participants at https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24 if you're attending the summit. I need that list to be complete, to arrange for access to the Cisco building.
  911. Guus eyes dwd
  912. marc Ge0rG: so what do you propose for 401? Wait until SASL2 is ready or use the hack for now and update it later?
  913. sonny has left
  914. marc I mean 401 as XEP not the implementation
  915. Ge0rG marc: use the hack and update it when SASL2 becomes ready
  916. Ge0rG as SASL2 is not standardized, I'm sure we won't even need to bump anything when it appears
  917. marc Ge0rG, not even bump 401?
  918. mukt2 has left
  919. dwd Ge0rG, What's missing in SASL2?
  920. Zash Implementations?
  921. Ge0rG marc: I don't see a need
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  924. dwd Zash, Sure. I need to find time to test the one I have for Openfire and PR it.
  925. Ge0rG marc: the new feature is feature-namespaced and nobody implemented 0401 before anyway
  926. marc Ge0rG, I'm not in SASL2 but when we change the wire protocol from the "hacky" to SASL2-version, we need to bump 401, no?
  927. Zash New version of the XEP?
  928. Ge0rG marc: I'm not sure about that
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  933. jubalh XEP-0232 is the only one that tell others my client version, right?
  934. Ge0rG jubalh: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html and there is also disco identity
  935. jubalh whats disco identity?
  936. Ge0rG jubalh: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html#example-2 has one for servers, but clients often contain the respective name in there
  937. mathijs has left
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  939. Daniel But don't use that to communicate your version
  940. Ge0rG yeah, don't add anything dynamic in there, as it breaks disco#info caching
  941. Zash Having your version in XEP-0232 does that too
  942. Daniel So 92 it is
  943. jubalh I'll read all of them now before asking more questions :)
  944. Zash "breaks" is a bit harsh, but we don't need to shove too much stuff into disco#info
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  948. moparisthebest so we need a special push protocol specifically for new apple induced constraints? that's nice
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  991. Ge0rG moparisthebest: another one beyond the Push XEP?
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  997. moparisthebest yep, see https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-January/036925.html
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  999. dwd Yeah, Apple are cracking down on silent/straight-to-app notifications. This affects features like fully encrypted stanzas rather badly, since only the app knows if a stanza arriving is of the sort you'd want to use a visible notification for. Facebook/Whatsapp and others are rather annoyed about it all.
  1000. dwd Personally, I think it's part and parcel of not using open standards.
  1001. moparisthebest and it does hurt to cripple an open standard to support a closed platform made up almost entirely of users who don't care about open anything
  1002. Ge0rG dwd: we need to get back to the "contains actual message" push payload then?
  1003. moparisthebest on the other hand "xmpp sucks, doesn't even have a useable ios client"
  1004. dwd Ge0rG, Well, for us (Pando) we don't display message content in the notifications anyway, and we'll never do full stanza encryption because of metadata analysis (we offer that back to the hospitals). So it somewhat depends on what UX you're trying to get versus what securiy model you're aiming for.
  1005. dwd moparisthebest, And yes, this second is important. But note it'll affect WhatsApp as well.
  1006. eevvoor has left
  1007. moparisthebest and signal from the link in that thread, I suppose everyone
  1008. moparisthebest the more annoying bit for xmpp specifically is, it's easier to just change all your servers if you control all the servers haha
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  1012. dwd moparisthebest, Likewise with clients. Open Standards is a harder path.
  1013. moparisthebest clients are easier to change there because none really work today anyway, but yep
  1014. Ge0rG I'd take the ramblings of Mr. Nenakhov with a grain of salt. I know that Anu had to do significant work on Monal for iOS 13, but he managed to make it work, so...
  1015. moparisthebest not reliably from what I've heard, and only with the voip hack which is well documented as gone now
  1016. dwd Ge0rG, I heard all the same things from Facebook and Wire people.
  1017. moparisthebest just follow the links, you don't have to take his word for it
  1018. dwd Ge0rG, I think Andrew's right in this case.
  1019. Ge0rG Well, we can thank Facebook for that, then. But maybe the faceless automaton that is the Apple approval process will be kind to Free and Federated IM clients.
  1020. dwd Ge0rG, Hahahaha!
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  1023. dwd Ge0rG, But seriously, please do let me know what you think is missing from SASL2. Once I've an implementation in Openfire, I was considering Last Calling, so if you think tere are important things to do first, please say.
  1024. Ge0rG dwd: essentially what Zash said. It only exists in theory.
  1025. Ge0rG dwd: for me to make use of it somebody would have to convince flow to implement it in smack in a way that can be back ported to the previous release
  1026. dwd Ge0rG, Zash has half an implementation, and it's on flow's roadmap. Openfire has an implementation, though it's not yet in master (having rescured it I need to test it a bit before makign the PR, but the code is there).
  1027. dwd Ge0rG, flow's aim is to get it working for ISR etc, which seems like a major effort - I doubt it'll backport cleanly, though a simplistic implementation should work.
  1028. Ge0rG dwd: also with it being a security algorithm, somebody with a background in security needs to vet it
  1029. Ge0rG I'm not yet ready to upgrade my minimum sdk level to smack 4.4 equivalent
  1030. dwd Ge0rG, Well, it's not a security algorithm. It packages existing security algorithms in the same way as the existing SASL binding.
  1031. lovetox dwd im interested in SASL2
  1032. lovetox if you have a server impl, i would try to impl it in Gajim
  1033. lovetox im most interested in the password reset thing
  1034. Ge0rG Wasn't there also a discussion about SASL being IETF territory?
  1035. dwd lovetox, I did have half an implementation; I just couldn't figure out how to prevent the stream restart.
  1036. dwd Ge0rG, Any SASL mechanism, yes. SASL2 isn't one. It's borderline, I'll accept, being a binding, and I'd like some review from IETF folks, but we can get Alexey to look quite easily - and he designed the original.
  1037. lovetox dwd what was the XEP again?
  1038. Ge0rG dwd: that sounds like a reasonable plan indeed. Is asking Alexey blocked by needing more implementations?
  1039. debacle has joined
  1040. dwd Ge0rG, Well, if Kev considers implementing, I think Alexey would pretty much get sucked in...
  1041. dwd lovetox, XEP-0388.
  1042. lovetox oh that was the one about 2FA
  1043. lovetox not the one with password reset
  1044. lovetox also useful though
  1045. lovetox although i dont know how this works in practice
  1046. lovetox if you have a bad connection, you need to 2FA every minute?
  1047. dwd lovetox, Though my Openfire code at https://github.com/dwd/Openfire/tree/dwd/sasl2 has SASL2 (XEP-0388), TOTP-2FA (XEP-0400), and I genuinely can't recall what else right now.
  1048. dwd lovetox, That was why I did CLIENT-KEY, so you could get a "Remember this device" thing.
  1049. moparisthebest that might also just resolve itself with QUIC
  1050. moparisthebest since you can keep the same connection across network disconnects or networks
  1051. dwd lovetox, XEP-0399. I do have code that's very similar to XEP-0399, but not quite. And there's SASL-HT* as well which could be used in much the same way, and, as moparisthebest says, QUIC.
  1052. Ge0rG I suppose 2FA only makes sense at the moment when you have to enter a password.
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  1056. dwd FWIW, if I were to do CLIENT-KEY again, I'd probably do something weird based aorund HPKE instead.
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  1068. Ge0rG Why not just x.509 client certificates
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