XSF Discussion - 2020-01-30

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08:34:42 flow larma, congrats to the 0.1 release of dino :)
08:35:59 edhelas yeah, congrats 🎉 :)
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08:48:38 !XSF_Martin Happy release day 🎂
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18:27:27 rion Are there any time limitations for receiving iq result/error?
18:28:09 Zash In theory not
18:29:02 moparisthebest heat death of the universe
18:30:34 Zash Not receiving a response is a protocol violation
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18:45:45 Ge0rG Zash: and therefore it can't happen!
18:46:23 Zash Correct!
18:46:33 Ge0rG rion: the real question is - what do you do with the iq result that arrives after you already went into the timeout handler?
18:47:50 Ge0rG I think that we need to fundamentally change the semantics at the API layer, where you have a timeout only giving an indication that it's taking very long now, but not removing the actual response handler.
18:48:09 Ge0rG OTOH, we had a handler leak in poezio just because of that
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18:56:57 rion Yep. it's what worries me. Assuming I have an app which runs for a very long time.
18:57:56 rion And I mostly merge Psi+ to Psi. Only one patch left, which introduces the timeout
18:59:15 Zash A recently added thing to track IQ stanzas in Prosody (sent by the server itself, not clients) has a default timeout of 2 minutes
18:59:18 rion As far as I understand it has to be very use-case specific. For example for legacy FT a request can wait for a confirmation for hours if not days.
19:01:14 rion Requesting conferences' list on slow connection sometimes takes ages. So everything is relative.
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19:05:38 rion But anyway, it would be nice to have some recommendations about timeouts in the standard and some XEPs
19:06:09 moparisthebest it probably needs to vary wildly based on what you are doing
19:06:27 rion Agree
19:06:40 moparisthebest if you are writing a system designed to talk over satellites it's going to need to be much higher than if you are developing a system to talk between servers on the same 10gbe network
19:07:00 moparisthebest but yea, recommendations for "normal chat clients" would surely be a good idea
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19:15:47 jonas’ timeouts are always wrong :(
19:16:47 lovetox my idea is to not have timeouts
19:17:06 lovetox for IQs, rather i pass the application a cancel handle
19:17:38 lovetox The Application knows best when it does not make any sense anymore to process the response
19:18:15 lovetox so it uses the cancel handle to remove the callback
19:19:01 lovetox this is also important for if the user cancels the process , does not even mean the IQ did take long
19:19:11 jonas’ true
19:19:17 lovetox but if he opens some window that triggers fetching a list via IQ, and just closes it agian
19:19:27 lovetox the application needs to remove the callback response
19:19:42 jonas’ for some automated tasks you’d still want timeouts though
19:19:50 jonas’ for example automated disco#info lookups
19:19:56 jonas’ you don’t want those to accumulate
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19:20:30 lovetox yeah ..
19:20:41 lovetox probably timeouts do make sense in some situations
19:21:21 jonas’ in asyncio, you’d simply properly handle cancellation of the IQ request coroutine and thus allow the user to use asyncio.wait or something like that.
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19:21:50 moparisthebest but it sounds like you are saying your library makes timeouts the application's responsibility? which sounds like the right choice
19:22:14 lovetox but for IQs you cancel the callback and you are fine
19:22:20 lovetox more anoying is stuff like
19:22:21 lovetox muc join
19:22:26 lovetox where you have no way of tracking
19:22:31 lovetox you cant cancel a muc join
19:22:38 jonas’ lovetox, you can send presence unavailable
19:22:45 jonas’ effectively removing yourself from the muc right after
19:22:46 lovetox thats not a cancel
19:22:53 jonas’ you can’t cancel an IQ either
19:23:12 lovetox no, but i can ignore it with simple dont listen for the callback
19:23:18 lovetox and i know the id i have to ignore
19:23:25 lovetox but with mucs, there is no id tracking
19:23:35 lovetox the muc simply starts to spam me with presence, and even messages
19:23:38 jonas’ you track by from and presence type tho
19:23:45 lovetox i have to start ignoring the whole jid
19:23:50 jonas’ yeah, and if a MUC does that, you reply with presence type="unavailable" and possibly message type="error"
19:24:32 lovetox yeah, just saying i find it more annoying, i track now which mucs are in joining state, and if the user clicks abort
19:24:42 lovetox i simply put the muc jid on the ignore list
19:24:45 lovetox which is probably wrong
19:24:53 lovetox because i could get invites from there
19:25:23 lovetox i think i have the ignore list only for presence
19:25:28 lovetox not for messages though
19:25:59 lovetox but you are right, i should respond with presence unavailable
19:26:09 lovetox but again only on the first presence i receive from that muc
19:26:14 lovetox which again i have to track
19:27:06 lovetox what would usefull is, if all join related messages, presence had a join-id attr like we have with mam the queryid attr
19:27:46 lovetox but k muc is really old
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19:47:35 Ge0rG Every MUC is Schrödinger's Chat.
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