20:45:18 Zash> Given the flexibility of XMPP, having clients and servers optimized for each other makes sense.
"Optimized for Internet Explorer 5 on 1024x768 pixels"
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LNJ
Is there any XEP for voting already?
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MattJ
Surprisingly no, not that I'm aware of
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ralphm
Although politicians would like you to believe online voting is _just fine_, there are still people with concerns around this, particularly regarding voting secrecy (others not being able to know how a particular individual voted) and the ability to verify votes are in fact correctly counted.
pep.
There are different levels of secrecy/privacy one might want to achieve.
Zash
Buttons?
ralphm
In the Netherlands, the rules are pretty clear on this: there should not be a way to derive how an indivual voted, to prevent coersion.
pep.
Zash: I had that in mind yeah
Zash
Wanna help me refiddle and resubmit it?
pep.
ralphm: that's only for governmental stuff though right?
MattJ
and PR memberbot
Ge0rG
call it "polls" and not voting
Zash
Alt, figure out how XEP-0050 over messages would work?
pep.
Ge0rG: yeah
ralphm
pep., I thought the question was related to the US pre-elections. If not, then sure, please call it polls.
Zash
Ge0rG: I envisioned it as simple actions, simple fixed responses.
Zash
Polls and voting would be implementation details
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ralphm
simple polls (as done in Slack) are pretty mutch congruent with reactions, by the way✎
pep.
I think that's pretty much a hack
ralphm
simple polls (as done in Slack) are pretty much congruent with reactions, by the way ✏
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ralphm
I am not saying you should use Reactions for this, of course, I'm saying that the handling is similar, including MAM
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ralphm
(again, for the simple case)
pep.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfpy5c3thQo this was an interesting talk about online voting btw
But not enough to accept it and have issues fixed as Experimental?
ralphm
Zash: that's indeed the stance of a group of indivuals here, that are (translated) named "we don't trust voting-computers"
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ralphm
Zash: that the issues for computer-assisted voting of any kind right now, outweigh the supposed issues with paper ballots.
pep.
Zash: an answer to online voting is no proprietary crap, and make the process transparent
ralphm
pep., it is not that simple, at all
Zash
I'm sure you can solve it with magic crypto dust. But please explain it to your mom or anyone not a cryptographer.
pep.
note that this applies to lots of things :)
ralphm
pep., but having provable code is at least a beginning
Ge0rG
voting/polls don't make any sense if you don't have persistent MAM forever.
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Zash
ralphm: Yeah I don't see how you can really beat paper ballots for privacy and understandability.
LNJ
Yes i just was up to simple polls like you have with other messengers
Zash
There's some things you can do with computers to help, like print new ballots when they run out instead of having centralized printing you pre-order from
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Guus
I just signed up to Telegram (don't ask). Got two messages within 5 minutes: "Huh" and "What are you doing here, in this silo?" 😇
Ge0rGasks
Guus
don't!
Guus
(some people love their silos)
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Zash
Does it tell people you joined?
MattJ
Guus, happens to me too (I frequently install/uninstall those for research purposes)
Guus
> Does it tell people you joined?
Apparently
pep.
Zash: that's an obvious UX improvement! who cares about privacy :)
Ge0rG
Even Signal does.
moparisthebest
They weigh privacy vs marketing and marketing wins, our scale tends to tip the other way
Zash
And all the privacy concious people already use Signal
Ge0rG
Like jwz.
Ge0rG
I like his image for that. https://www.jwz.org/blog/2018/08/signal/
I want to take this opportunity to again thank everyone that made this a success!
MattJ
+1 :)
ralphm
I think the Summit was full of good discussions and vibe.
ralphm
While at the Summit we were a bit cramped, I've already talked to the FOSDEM crew about this, and there are some ideas for next year. I think we did have good discussions there, too, with our visitors.
Seve
That is how it feels! :)
ralphm
Unfortunately I missed Sunday, including the devroom.
pep.
cramped?
Guus
I think he means we were cramped at FOSDEM, not Summit.
ralphm
pep., I meant at FOSDEM
pep.
k
ralphm
(I really want that edit-all-previous-messages-not-just-the-last feature)
ralphm
Guus or I will send out a message to handle any financials.
ralphm
3. Excuse Fabian Sauter from SCAM
ralphm
COM8 has mentioned his intent to leave SCAM, so I move we hereby remove him from this team.
ralphm
+1
pep.
+1 (do we actually need to vote?)
ralphm
pep., yes, we do assignments of work teams
MattJ
+1
Seve
+1
ralphm
Motion carries. Thanks Fabian!
Guus
+1 - thanks Fabian!
Guus
(unsure if we can stop a resignment?)
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pep.
Guus: yeah that was my point
ralphm
4. Guus, probably not. But hey, now everyone is definitely on the same page.
Guus
anyways - case closed.
ralphm
oops, that's not an agenda item
ralphm
4. 2020 Sponsors
ralphm
At the XSF Dinner I thanked our current sponsors, and think this is also the right time to give our Sponsorship program some attention.
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Guus
Good. Thoughts on how?
ralphm
In particular, I think we should write a message to these current sponsors to ask if they'd like to renew.
Guus
That's an obvious step that we seem to forget all the time 🙂
ralphm
Hence me bringing it up.
Guus
👍
Seve
:)
ralphm
In addition, it would be good to send a message out (using various channels) with similar thanks, and an invitation to join our Sponsorship program.
ralphm
Possibly in collaboration with commteam.
MattJ
sgtm
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nyco-2
from the ground: may we also ask for sponsorship to any software company selling XMPP products and services?
I mean not just renew the current and past sponsors
ralphm
nyco-2 that was my intent, indeed
nyco-2
CommTeam hat on: not sure how we can, but listening
Seve
Sending a tweet/toot out with a link to our sponsorship page for starters maybe
ralphm
nyco-2: I was thinking an e-mail to members, standards, jdev, a blog post, and links to that in our socials.
ralphm
maybe also operators (e-mail)
Guus
should we start adding our sponsors to the newsletter?
nyco-2
we can contribute something like that, yes
nyco-2
Guus our sponsors page is enough? no need to repeat in each newsletter?
pep.
Guus: I'm sure the website is already enough exposure
ralphm
We could add this for specific levels, like say Platinum
I'm sure there are other things to do before we start thinking about this. like using the money.
nyco-2
this means we guarantee the newsletter will go out in a timely manner
we can't as today we have a SPOF in me
MattJ
pep., they aren't mutually-exclusive
nyco-2
before using the money, let's get it
pep.
MattJ: but may encourage sponsors
ralphm
pep., sure, let's have that discussion too, but not in this agenda item
pep.
"hey do you want to give us money?" "what for?"
MattJ
"Help! We're almost bankrupt!" next year :)
Seve
That
ralphm
pep., shall I add a new agenda item for this?
ralphm
(for next time)
pep.
ralphm: agenda item maybe not, I do have a few.idead to bounce off board/members though✎
pep.
ralphm: agenda item maybe not, I do have a few ideas to bounce off board/members though ✏
ralphm
Although I'm not sure what to name it. "How to spend our money" is very broad. I'd like more concrete asks, really.
ralphm
pep., ok, can you add an appropriate card yourself then?
Guus
maybe also have a pre-discussion on list, if appropriate?
pep.
Guus: what I'm saying
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pep.
ralphm: no content for an item yet. that's list matter
ralphm
In any case, I believe we are spending a bit more on coenferences and materials than previous years, so that's great and a good thing to mention to prospective sponsors
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ralphm
pep., ok
ralphm
I'll work with Seve and nyco to come up with some prose.
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pep.
(and I do encourage anybody to propose ways to spend the money in any case, it's not just me)
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Seve
Alright
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ralphm
Yes, spending money is a hobby of mine.
ralphm
5. AOB
MattJ
I have a related ask, which can be taken to the list and/or next week if necessary
At FOSDEM I was approached by someone who would potentially be able to provide funding for some modernxmpp.org activities
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MattJ
They asked if it would be possible to do that via the XSF (they are a non-profit)
pep.
nyco-2: lgtm
pep.
thanks
MattJ
i.e. send money to the XSF ring-fenced for specific projects
nyco-2
modernxmpp as a WG?
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pep.
maybe not wg no
nyco-2
why not
pep.
that's an independent project (wants to be, as I understand it)
nyco-2
no
pep.
it's an opinionated project, which goes against the neutrality
nyco-2
why create a new entity with all the needed effort and cost?
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nyco-2
does not seem opiniated
MattJ
It's not really a new entity, that's the point of the funding going via the XSF
Guus
MattJ: who should the XSF pay with that money?
nyco-2
suggestion: a few project leads that are not companies (yet?)
MattJ
Guus, the project is yet to be scoped - but e.g. UX experts, technical writers, whatever the project that they want to fund entails
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Guus
It's the XSFs mission to facilitate xmpp development, so I'm not immediately against helping out with financial arrangements. Things need to be very clear though.
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MattJ
I'm more testing the water to see if this is an acceptable thing in principle, because if it's not then other arrangements would need to be made
MattJ
If it is, then at some point a concrete project proposal and statement of work would be provided down the road
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Guus
Well, if there's an entity that wants to spend money on XMPP, we'd be fools to not try and make that work.
MattJ
I agree :)
pep.
MattJ: there's also SPI otherwise than can do that. I do understand the will to go through the XSF though, if possible
Guus
We must think carefully about how things are arranged properly though. Things revolving around money often tend to get messy fast. I don't want discord amongst ourselves over this.
MattJ
Agreed
MattJ
However I'd like to see things like this become more normal for the XSF, personally :/
Guus
eg: would this benefit a certain project more than others? I'd not even be against that, but only if that's explicitly established before we accept the money.
Guus
That would be good. I do think we should carefully think about if the XSF should be in a position to decide who gets (and who does not get) the money.
Guus
I'd prefer if the donor makes that decision.
Guus
(haven given this all of 2 minutes of thoughts)
MattJ
I've seen objections to related things in the past due to "unfairness" if the XSF provides money to open-source work but not commercial entities working on XMPP
MattJ
I personally think that is absolute nonsense, but I don't think modernxmpp.org falls into that category
jonas’
(also make sure we don't get in tax/money laundering trouble if it's really just forwarding money through a non-profit)
MattJ
Since it provides open documentation for XMPP projects of all kinds
MattJ
jonas’, are you aware of a specific problem with that?
MattJ
(I'm sure organisation transfer money between each other all the time)✎
MattJ
(I'm sure organisations transfer money between each other all the time) ✏
jonas’
MattJ: no, especially since the XSF is US based
Guus
If this money is used to create documentation only, things might already be a bit easier - but still, we're setting a bit of a precedent with this. Let's think it over carefully.
Guus
In any case, I would very much welcome the opportunity
jonas’
but this sounds like the kind of stuff you want to double check
MattJ
Regardless of this specific thing, I'd like to see a process for people to apply for, and the XSF to grant, funding for projects
MattJ
Even if each has to be approved by $some_committee on a per-project basis
MattJ
It should be a thing that we can do
Guus
I like that.
pep.
Guus: re neutrality, I don't think that's a problem. We can just say we'd funnel.money for any xmpp-related project who asks✎
pep.
Guus: re neutrality, I don't think that's a problem. We can just say we'd funnel money for any xmpp-related project who asks ✏
Guus
maybe take this to the list - also, we should definitely involve the treasurer before moving much further forward.
MattJ
I can write something up to throw at the list
MattJ
Also note that I've yet to actually hear back from them in writing (but they were extremly keen at the weekend)
Guus
Everything needs to start somewhere. Let's hope we can make this happen.
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nyco-2
https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9ev2-xsfboarddirectorsweeklymeeting-2020-02-06 only one review?