XSF Discussion - 2020-02-06

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  87. jonas’ 20:45:18 Zash> Given the flexibility of XMPP, having clients and servers optimized for each other makes sense. "Optimized for Internet Explorer 5 on 1024x768 pixels"
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  229. LNJ Is there any XEP for voting already?
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  241. MattJ Surprisingly no, not that I'm aware of
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  244. ralphm Although politicians would like you to believe online voting is _just fine_, there are still people with concerns around this, particularly regarding voting secrecy (others not being able to know how a particular individual voted) and the ability to verify votes are in fact correctly counted.
  245. pep. There are different levels of secrecy/privacy one might want to achieve.
  246. Zash Buttons?
  247. ralphm In the Netherlands, the rules are pretty clear on this: there should not be a way to derive how an indivual voted, to prevent coersion.
  248. pep. Zash: I had that in mind yeah
  249. Zash Wanna help me refiddle and resubmit it?
  250. pep. ralphm: that's only for governmental stuff though right?
  251. MattJ and PR memberbot
  252. Ge0rG call it "polls" and not voting
  253. Zash Alt, figure out how XEP-0050 over messages would work?
  254. pep. Ge0rG: yeah
  255. ralphm pep., I thought the question was related to the US pre-elections. If not, then sure, please call it polls.
  256. Zash Ge0rG: I envisioned it as simple actions, simple fixed responses.
  257. Zash Polls and voting would be implementation details
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  259. ralphm simple polls (as done in Slack) are pretty mutch congruent with reactions, by the way
  260. pep. I think that's pretty much a hack
  261. ralphm simple polls (as done in Slack) are pretty much congruent with reactions, by the way
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  263. ralphm I am not saying you should use Reactions for this, of course, I'm saying that the handling is similar, including MAM
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  266. ralphm (again, for the simple case)
  267. pep. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfpy5c3thQo this was an interesting talk about online voting btw
  268. pep. at LinuxConAU this month
  269. Zash The solution to online voting is easy: Don't.
  270. pep. at LinuxConfAU this month
  271. Ge0rG Zash: I remember. I actually liked the idea
  272. Zash But not enough to accept it and have issues fixed as Experimental?
  273. ralphm Zash: that's indeed the stance of a group of indivuals here, that are (translated) named "we don't trust voting-computers"
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  275. ralphm Zash: that the issues for computer-assisted voting of any kind right now, outweigh the supposed issues with paper ballots.
  276. pep. Zash: an answer to online voting is no proprietary crap, and make the process transparent
  277. ralphm pep., it is not that simple, at all
  278. Zash I'm sure you can solve it with magic crypto dust. But please explain it to your mom or anyone not a cryptographer.
  279. pep. note that this applies to lots of things :)
  280. ralphm pep., but having provable code is at least a beginning
  281. Ge0rG voting/polls don't make any sense if you don't have persistent MAM forever.
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  285. Zash ralphm: Yeah I don't see how you can really beat paper ballots for privacy and understandability.
  286. LNJ Yes i just was up to simple polls like you have with other messengers
  287. Zash There's some things you can do with computers to help, like print new ballots when they run out instead of having centralized printing you pre-order from
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  291. Guus I just signed up to Telegram (don't ask). Got two messages within 5 minutes: "Huh" and "What are you doing here, in this silo?" 😇
  292. Ge0rG asks
  293. Guus don't!
  294. Guus (some people love their silos)
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  296. Zash Does it tell people you joined?
  297. MattJ Guus, happens to me too (I frequently install/uninstall those for research purposes)
  298. Guus > Does it tell people you joined? Apparently
  299. pep. Zash: that's an obvious UX improvement! who cares about privacy :)
  300. Ge0rG Even Signal does.
  301. moparisthebest They weigh privacy vs marketing and marketing wins, our scale tends to tip the other way
  302. Zash And all the privacy concious people already use Signal
  303. Ge0rG Like jwz.
  304. Ge0rG I like his image for that. https://www.jwz.org/blog/2018/08/signal/
  305. nyco-2 https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9ev2-xsfboarddirectorsweeklymeeting-2020-02-06
  306. nyco-2 hehehe
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  308. ralphm bangs gavel
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  311. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  312. ralphm Welcome everyone! Who do we have?
  313. pep. !
  314. MattJ Here
  315. Guus me to
  316. Guus o
  317. ralphm Seve?
  318. Seve Hello!!
  319. ralphm Yay!
  320. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  321. ralphm waves to nyco-2
  322. nyco-2 /\ above /\
  323. ralphm 2. XMPP Summit / FOSDEM
  324. ralphm I want to take this opportunity to again thank everyone that made this a success!
  325. MattJ +1 :)
  326. ralphm I think the Summit was full of good discussions and vibe.
  327. ralphm While at the Summit we were a bit cramped, I've already talked to the FOSDEM crew about this, and there are some ideas for next year. I think we did have good discussions there, too, with our visitors.
  328. Seve That is how it feels! :)
  329. ralphm Unfortunately I missed Sunday, including the devroom.
  330. pep. cramped?
  331. Guus I think he means we were cramped at FOSDEM, not Summit.
  332. ralphm pep., I meant at FOSDEM
  333. pep. k
  334. ralphm (I really want that edit-all-previous-messages-not-just-the-last feature)
  335. ralphm Guus or I will send out a message to handle any financials.
  336. ralphm 3. Excuse Fabian Sauter from SCAM
  337. ralphm COM8 has mentioned his intent to leave SCAM, so I move we hereby remove him from this team.
  338. ralphm +1
  339. pep. +1 (do we actually need to vote?)
  340. ralphm pep., yes, we do assignments of work teams
  341. MattJ +1
  342. Seve +1
  343. ralphm Motion carries. Thanks Fabian!
  344. Guus +1 - thanks Fabian!
  345. Guus (unsure if we can stop a resignment?)
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  348. pep. Guus: yeah that was my point
  349. ralphm 4. Guus, probably not. But hey, now everyone is definitely on the same page.
  350. Guus anyways - case closed.
  351. ralphm oops, that's not an agenda item
  352. ralphm 4. 2020 Sponsors
  353. ralphm At the XSF Dinner I thanked our current sponsors, and think this is also the right time to give our Sponsorship program some attention.
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  356. Guus Good. Thoughts on how?
  357. ralphm In particular, I think we should write a message to these current sponsors to ask if they'd like to renew.
  358. Guus That's an obvious step that we seem to forget all the time 🙂
  359. ralphm Hence me bringing it up.
  360. Guus 👍
  361. Seve :)
  362. ralphm In addition, it would be good to send a message out (using various channels) with similar thanks, and an invitation to join our Sponsorship program.
  363. ralphm Possibly in collaboration with commteam.
  364. MattJ sgtm
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  367. nyco-2 from the ground: may we also ask for sponsorship to any software company selling XMPP products and services? I mean not just renew the current and past sponsors
  368. ralphm nyco-2 that was my intent, indeed
  369. nyco-2 CommTeam hat on: not sure how we can, but listening
  370. Seve Sending a tweet/toot out with a link to our sponsorship page for starters maybe
  371. ralphm nyco-2: I was thinking an e-mail to members, standards, jdev, a blog post, and links to that in our socials.
  372. ralphm maybe also operators (e-mail)
  373. Guus should we start adding our sponsors to the newsletter?
  374. nyco-2 we can contribute something like that, yes
  375. nyco-2 Guus our sponsors page is enough? no need to repeat in each newsletter?
  376. pep. Guus: I'm sure the website is already enough exposure
  377. ralphm We could add this for specific levels, like say Platinum
  378. Guus no biggy to me. Just a throught
  379. Guus no biggy to me. Just a thought
  380. ralphm Good suggestion, thanks
  381. pep. I'm sure there are other things to do before we start thinking about this. like using the money.
  382. nyco-2 this means we guarantee the newsletter will go out in a timely manner we can't as today we have a SPOF in me
  383. MattJ pep., they aren't mutually-exclusive
  384. nyco-2 before using the money, let's get it
  385. pep. MattJ: but may encourage sponsors
  386. ralphm pep., sure, let's have that discussion too, but not in this agenda item
  387. pep. "hey do you want to give us money?" "what for?"
  388. MattJ "Help! We're almost bankrupt!" next year :)
  389. Seve That
  390. ralphm pep., shall I add a new agenda item for this?
  391. ralphm (for next time)
  392. pep. ralphm: agenda item maybe not, I do have a few.idead to bounce off board/members though
  393. pep. ralphm: agenda item maybe not, I do have a few ideas to bounce off board/members though
  394. ralphm Although I'm not sure what to name it. "How to spend our money" is very broad. I'd like more concrete asks, really.
  395. ralphm pep., ok, can you add an appropriate card yourself then?
  396. Guus maybe also have a pre-discussion on list, if appropriate?
  397. pep. Guus: what I'm saying
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  399. pep. ralphm: no content for an item yet. that's list matter
  400. ralphm In any case, I believe we are spending a bit more on coenferences and materials than previous years, so that's great and a good thing to mention to prospective sponsors
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  402. ralphm pep., ok
  403. ralphm I'll work with Seve and nyco to come up with some prose.
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  405. pep. (and I do encourage anybody to propose ways to spend the money in any case, it's not just me)
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  407. Seve Alright
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  409. ralphm Yes, spending money is a hobby of mine.
  410. ralphm 5. AOB
  411. MattJ I have a related ask, which can be taken to the list and/or next week if necessary
  412. ralphm MattJ, ok!
  413. ralphm 6. Date of Next
  414. ralphm +1W
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  417. pep. +1 wfm
  418. ralphm 7. Close
  419. MattJ wfm
  420. ralphm Thanks all!
  421. ralphm bangs gavel
  422. jonas’ Thanks, Board
  423. nyco-2 https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9ev2-xsfboarddirectorsweeklymeeting-2020-02-06
  424. Guus Thanks!
  425. nyco-2 please edit!
  426. Seve Thank you as always nyco-2
  427. nyco-2 I won't send without your validations
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  430. MattJ At FOSDEM I was approached by someone who would potentially be able to provide funding for some modernxmpp.org activities
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  433. MattJ They asked if it would be possible to do that via the XSF (they are a non-profit)
  434. pep. nyco-2: lgtm
  435. pep. thanks
  436. MattJ i.e. send money to the XSF ring-fenced for specific projects
  437. nyco-2 modernxmpp as a WG?
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  439. pep. maybe not wg no
  440. nyco-2 why not
  441. pep. that's an independent project (wants to be, as I understand it)
  442. nyco-2 no
  443. pep. it's an opinionated project, which goes against the neutrality
  444. nyco-2 why create a new entity with all the needed effort and cost?
  445. Extarv has joined
  446. nyco-2 does not seem opiniated
  447. MattJ It's not really a new entity, that's the point of the funding going via the XSF
  448. Guus MattJ: who should the XSF pay with that money?
  449. nyco-2 suggestion: a few project leads that are not companies (yet?)
  450. MattJ Guus, the project is yet to be scoped - but e.g. UX experts, technical writers, whatever the project that they want to fund entails
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  452. Guus It's the XSFs mission to facilitate xmpp development, so I'm not immediately against helping out with financial arrangements. Things need to be very clear though.
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  454. MattJ I'm more testing the water to see if this is an acceptable thing in principle, because if it's not then other arrangements would need to be made
  455. MattJ If it is, then at some point a concrete project proposal and statement of work would be provided down the road
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  457. Guus Well, if there's an entity that wants to spend money on XMPP, we'd be fools to not try and make that work.
  458. MattJ I agree :)
  459. pep. MattJ: there's also SPI otherwise than can do that. I do understand the will to go through the XSF though, if possible
  460. Guus We must think carefully about how things are arranged properly though. Things revolving around money often tend to get messy fast. I don't want discord amongst ourselves over this.
  461. MattJ Agreed
  462. MattJ However I'd like to see things like this become more normal for the XSF, personally :/
  463. Guus eg: would this benefit a certain project more than others? I'd not even be against that, but only if that's explicitly established before we accept the money.
  464. Guus That would be good. I do think we should carefully think about if the XSF should be in a position to decide who gets (and who does not get) the money.
  465. Guus I'd prefer if the donor makes that decision.
  466. Guus (haven given this all of 2 minutes of thoughts)
  467. MattJ I've seen objections to related things in the past due to "unfairness" if the XSF provides money to open-source work but not commercial entities working on XMPP
  468. MattJ I personally think that is absolute nonsense, but I don't think modernxmpp.org falls into that category
  469. jonas’ (also make sure we don't get in tax/money laundering trouble if it's really just forwarding money through a non-profit)
  470. MattJ Since it provides open documentation for XMPP projects of all kinds
  471. MattJ jonas’, are you aware of a specific problem with that?
  472. MattJ (I'm sure organisation transfer money between each other all the time)
  473. MattJ (I'm sure organisations transfer money between each other all the time)
  474. jonas’ MattJ: no, especially since the XSF is US based
  475. Guus If this money is used to create documentation only, things might already be a bit easier - but still, we're setting a bit of a precedent with this. Let's think it over carefully.
  476. Guus In any case, I would very much welcome the opportunity
  477. jonas’ but this sounds like the kind of stuff you want to double check
  478. MattJ Regardless of this specific thing, I'd like to see a process for people to apply for, and the XSF to grant, funding for projects
  479. MattJ Even if each has to be approved by $some_committee on a per-project basis
  480. MattJ It should be a thing that we can do
  481. Guus I like that.
  482. pep. Guus: re neutrality, I don't think that's a problem. We can just say we'd funnel.money for any xmpp-related project who asks
  483. pep. Guus: re neutrality, I don't think that's a problem. We can just say we'd funnel money for any xmpp-related project who asks
  484. Guus maybe take this to the list - also, we should definitely involve the treasurer before moving much further forward.
  485. MattJ I can write something up to throw at the list
  486. MattJ Also note that I've yet to actually hear back from them in writing (but they were extremly keen at the weekend)
  487. Guus Everything needs to start somewhere. Let's hope we can make this happen.
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  490. nyco-2 https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9ev2-xsfboarddirectorsweeklymeeting-2020-02-06 only one review?
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  492. pep. I've seen the typo :)
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  495. MattJ LGTM (apart from the typos :) )
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  498. nyco-2 🙂
  499. nyco-2 is sending the minutes
  500. nyco-2 aaaand, sent thx all
  501. Guus Thank you nyco-2
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