XSF Discussion - 2020-02-06

  1. jonas’

    20:45:18 Zash> Given the flexibility of XMPP, having clients and servers optimized for each other makes sense. "Optimized for Internet Explorer 5 on 1024x768 pixels"

  2. LNJ

    Is there any XEP for voting already?

  3. MattJ

    Surprisingly no, not that I'm aware of

  4. ralphm

    Although politicians would like you to believe online voting is _just fine_, there are still people with concerns around this, particularly regarding voting secrecy (others not being able to know how a particular individual voted) and the ability to verify votes are in fact correctly counted.

  5. pep.

    There are different levels of secrecy/privacy one might want to achieve.

  6. Zash


  7. ralphm

    In the Netherlands, the rules are pretty clear on this: there should not be a way to derive how an indivual voted, to prevent coersion.

  8. pep.

    Zash: I had that in mind yeah

  9. Zash

    Wanna help me refiddle and resubmit it?

  10. pep.

    ralphm: that's only for governmental stuff though right?

  11. MattJ

    and PR memberbot

  12. Ge0rG

    call it "polls" and not voting

  13. Zash

    Alt, figure out how XEP-0050 over messages would work?

  14. pep.

    Ge0rG: yeah

  15. ralphm

    pep., I thought the question was related to the US pre-elections. If not, then sure, please call it polls.

  16. Zash

    Ge0rG: I envisioned it as simple actions, simple fixed responses.

  17. Zash

    Polls and voting would be implementation details

  18. ralphm

    simple polls (as done in Slack) are pretty mutch congruent with reactions, by the way

  19. pep.

    I think that's pretty much a hack

  20. ralphm

    simple polls (as done in Slack) are pretty much congruent with reactions, by the way

  21. ralphm

    I am not saying you should use Reactions for this, of course, I'm saying that the handling is similar, including MAM

  22. ralphm

    (again, for the simple case)

  23. pep.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfpy5c3thQo this was an interesting talk about online voting btw

  24. pep.

    at LinuxConAU this month

  25. Zash

    The solution to online voting is easy: Don't.

  26. pep.

    at LinuxConfAU this month

  27. Ge0rG

    Zash: I remember. I actually liked the idea

  28. Zash

    But not enough to accept it and have issues fixed as Experimental?

  29. ralphm

    Zash: that's indeed the stance of a group of indivuals here, that are (translated) named "we don't trust voting-computers"

  30. ralphm

    Zash: that the issues for computer-assisted voting of any kind right now, outweigh the supposed issues with paper ballots.

  31. pep.

    Zash: an answer to online voting is no proprietary crap, and make the process transparent

  32. ralphm

    pep., it is not that simple, at all

  33. Zash

    I'm sure you can solve it with magic crypto dust. But please explain it to your mom or anyone not a cryptographer.

  34. pep.

    note that this applies to lots of things :)

  35. ralphm

    pep., but having provable code is at least a beginning

  36. Ge0rG

    voting/polls don't make any sense if you don't have persistent MAM forever.

  37. Zash

    ralphm: Yeah I don't see how you can really beat paper ballots for privacy and understandability.

  38. LNJ

    Yes i just was up to simple polls like you have with other messengers

  39. Zash

    There's some things you can do with computers to help, like print new ballots when they run out instead of having centralized printing you pre-order from

  40. Guus

    I just signed up to Telegram (don't ask). Got two messages within 5 minutes: "Huh" and "What are you doing here, in this silo?" 😇

  41. Ge0rG asks

  42. Guus


  43. Guus

    (some people love their silos)

  44. Zash

    Does it tell people you joined?

  45. MattJ

    Guus, happens to me too (I frequently install/uninstall those for research purposes)

  46. Guus

    > Does it tell people you joined? Apparently

  47. pep.

    Zash: that's an obvious UX improvement! who cares about privacy :)

  48. Ge0rG

    Even Signal does.

  49. moparisthebest

    They weigh privacy vs marketing and marketing wins, our scale tends to tip the other way

  50. Zash

    And all the privacy concious people already use Signal

  51. Ge0rG

    Like jwz.

  52. Ge0rG

    I like his image for that. https://www.jwz.org/blog/2018/08/signal/

  53. nyco-2


  54. nyco-2


  55. ralphm bangs gavel

  56. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  57. ralphm

    Welcome everyone! Who do we have?

  58. pep.


  59. MattJ


  60. Guus

    me to

  61. Guus


  62. ralphm


  63. Seve


  64. ralphm


  65. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  66. ralphm waves to nyco-2

  67. nyco-2

    /\ above /\

  68. ralphm

    2. XMPP Summit / FOSDEM

  69. ralphm

    I want to take this opportunity to again thank everyone that made this a success!

  70. MattJ

    +1 :)

  71. ralphm

    I think the Summit was full of good discussions and vibe.

  72. ralphm

    While at the Summit we were a bit cramped, I've already talked to the FOSDEM crew about this, and there are some ideas for next year. I think we did have good discussions there, too, with our visitors.

  73. Seve

    That is how it feels! :)

  74. ralphm

    Unfortunately I missed Sunday, including the devroom.

  75. pep.


  76. Guus

    I think he means we were cramped at FOSDEM, not Summit.

  77. ralphm

    pep., I meant at FOSDEM

  78. pep.


  79. ralphm

    (I really want that edit-all-previous-messages-not-just-the-last feature)

  80. ralphm

    Guus or I will send out a message to handle any financials.

  81. ralphm

    3. Excuse Fabian Sauter from SCAM

  82. ralphm

    COM8 has mentioned his intent to leave SCAM, so I move we hereby remove him from this team.

  83. ralphm


  84. pep.

    +1 (do we actually need to vote?)

  85. ralphm

    pep., yes, we do assignments of work teams

  86. MattJ


  87. Seve


  88. ralphm

    Motion carries. Thanks Fabian!

  89. Guus

    +1 - thanks Fabian!

  90. Guus

    (unsure if we can stop a resignment?)

  91. pep.

    Guus: yeah that was my point

  92. ralphm

    4. Guus, probably not. But hey, now everyone is definitely on the same page.

  93. Guus

    anyways - case closed.

  94. ralphm

    oops, that's not an agenda item

  95. ralphm

    4. 2020 Sponsors

  96. ralphm

    At the XSF Dinner I thanked our current sponsors, and think this is also the right time to give our Sponsorship program some attention.

  97. Guus

    Good. Thoughts on how?

  98. ralphm

    In particular, I think we should write a message to these current sponsors to ask if they'd like to renew.

  99. Guus

    That's an obvious step that we seem to forget all the time 🙂

  100. ralphm

    Hence me bringing it up.

  101. Guus


  102. Seve


  103. ralphm

    In addition, it would be good to send a message out (using various channels) with similar thanks, and an invitation to join our Sponsorship program.

  104. ralphm

    Possibly in collaboration with commteam.

  105. MattJ


  106. nyco-2

    from the ground: may we also ask for sponsorship to any software company selling XMPP products and services? I mean not just renew the current and past sponsors

  107. ralphm

    nyco-2 that was my intent, indeed

  108. nyco-2

    CommTeam hat on: not sure how we can, but listening

  109. Seve

    Sending a tweet/toot out with a link to our sponsorship page for starters maybe

  110. ralphm

    nyco-2: I was thinking an e-mail to members, standards, jdev, a blog post, and links to that in our socials.

  111. ralphm

    maybe also operators (e-mail)

  112. Guus

    should we start adding our sponsors to the newsletter?

  113. nyco-2

    we can contribute something like that, yes

  114. nyco-2

    Guus our sponsors page is enough? no need to repeat in each newsletter?

  115. pep.

    Guus: I'm sure the website is already enough exposure

  116. ralphm

    We could add this for specific levels, like say Platinum

  117. Guus

    no biggy to me. Just a throught

  118. Guus

    no biggy to me. Just a thought

  119. ralphm

    Good suggestion, thanks

  120. pep.

    I'm sure there are other things to do before we start thinking about this. like using the money.

  121. nyco-2

    this means we guarantee the newsletter will go out in a timely manner we can't as today we have a SPOF in me

  122. MattJ

    pep., they aren't mutually-exclusive

  123. nyco-2

    before using the money, let's get it

  124. pep.

    MattJ: but may encourage sponsors

  125. ralphm

    pep., sure, let's have that discussion too, but not in this agenda item

  126. pep.

    "hey do you want to give us money?" "what for?"

  127. MattJ

    "Help! We're almost bankrupt!" next year :)

  128. Seve


  129. ralphm

    pep., shall I add a new agenda item for this?

  130. ralphm

    (for next time)

  131. pep.

    ralphm: agenda item maybe not, I do have a few.idead to bounce off board/members though

  132. pep.

    ralphm: agenda item maybe not, I do have a few ideas to bounce off board/members though

  133. ralphm

    Although I'm not sure what to name it. "How to spend our money" is very broad. I'd like more concrete asks, really.

  134. ralphm

    pep., ok, can you add an appropriate card yourself then?

  135. Guus

    maybe also have a pre-discussion on list, if appropriate?

  136. pep.

    Guus: what I'm saying

  137. pep.

    ralphm: no content for an item yet. that's list matter

  138. ralphm

    In any case, I believe we are spending a bit more on coenferences and materials than previous years, so that's great and a good thing to mention to prospective sponsors

  139. ralphm

    pep., ok

  140. ralphm

    I'll work with Seve and nyco to come up with some prose.

  141. pep.

    (and I do encourage anybody to propose ways to spend the money in any case, it's not just me)

  142. Seve


  143. ralphm

    Yes, spending money is a hobby of mine.

  144. ralphm

    5. AOB

  145. MattJ

    I have a related ask, which can be taken to the list and/or next week if necessary

  146. ralphm

    MattJ, ok!

  147. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  148. ralphm


  149. pep.

    +1 wfm

  150. ralphm

    7. Close

  151. MattJ


  152. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  153. ralphm bangs gavel

  154. jonas’

    Thanks, Board

  155. nyco-2


  156. Guus


  157. nyco-2

    please edit!

  158. Seve

    Thank you as always nyco-2

  159. nyco-2

    I won't send without your validations

  160. MattJ

    At FOSDEM I was approached by someone who would potentially be able to provide funding for some modernxmpp.org activities

  161. MattJ

    They asked if it would be possible to do that via the XSF (they are a non-profit)

  162. pep.

    nyco-2: lgtm

  163. pep.


  164. MattJ

    i.e. send money to the XSF ring-fenced for specific projects

  165. nyco-2

    modernxmpp as a WG?

  166. pep.

    maybe not wg no

  167. nyco-2

    why not

  168. pep.

    that's an independent project (wants to be, as I understand it)

  169. nyco-2


  170. pep.

    it's an opinionated project, which goes against the neutrality

  171. nyco-2

    why create a new entity with all the needed effort and cost?

  172. nyco-2

    does not seem opiniated

  173. MattJ

    It's not really a new entity, that's the point of the funding going via the XSF

  174. Guus

    MattJ: who should the XSF pay with that money?

  175. nyco-2

    suggestion: a few project leads that are not companies (yet?)

  176. MattJ

    Guus, the project is yet to be scoped - but e.g. UX experts, technical writers, whatever the project that they want to fund entails

  177. Guus

    It's the XSFs mission to facilitate xmpp development, so I'm not immediately against helping out with financial arrangements. Things need to be very clear though.

  178. MattJ

    I'm more testing the water to see if this is an acceptable thing in principle, because if it's not then other arrangements would need to be made

  179. MattJ

    If it is, then at some point a concrete project proposal and statement of work would be provided down the road

  180. Guus

    Well, if there's an entity that wants to spend money on XMPP, we'd be fools to not try and make that work.

  181. MattJ

    I agree :)

  182. pep.

    MattJ: there's also SPI otherwise than can do that. I do understand the will to go through the XSF though, if possible

  183. Guus

    We must think carefully about how things are arranged properly though. Things revolving around money often tend to get messy fast. I don't want discord amongst ourselves over this.

  184. MattJ


  185. MattJ

    However I'd like to see things like this become more normal for the XSF, personally :/

  186. Guus

    eg: would this benefit a certain project more than others? I'd not even be against that, but only if that's explicitly established before we accept the money.

  187. Guus

    That would be good. I do think we should carefully think about if the XSF should be in a position to decide who gets (and who does not get) the money.

  188. Guus

    I'd prefer if the donor makes that decision.

  189. Guus

    (haven given this all of 2 minutes of thoughts)

  190. MattJ

    I've seen objections to related things in the past due to "unfairness" if the XSF provides money to open-source work but not commercial entities working on XMPP

  191. MattJ

    I personally think that is absolute nonsense, but I don't think modernxmpp.org falls into that category

  192. jonas’

    (also make sure we don't get in tax/money laundering trouble if it's really just forwarding money through a non-profit)

  193. MattJ

    Since it provides open documentation for XMPP projects of all kinds

  194. MattJ

    jonas’, are you aware of a specific problem with that?

  195. MattJ

    (I'm sure organisation transfer money between each other all the time)

  196. MattJ

    (I'm sure organisations transfer money between each other all the time)

  197. jonas’

    MattJ: no, especially since the XSF is US based

  198. Guus

    If this money is used to create documentation only, things might already be a bit easier - but still, we're setting a bit of a precedent with this. Let's think it over carefully.

  199. Guus

    In any case, I would very much welcome the opportunity

  200. jonas’

    but this sounds like the kind of stuff you want to double check

  201. MattJ

    Regardless of this specific thing, I'd like to see a process for people to apply for, and the XSF to grant, funding for projects

  202. MattJ

    Even if each has to be approved by $some_committee on a per-project basis

  203. MattJ

    It should be a thing that we can do

  204. Guus

    I like that.

  205. pep.

    Guus: re neutrality, I don't think that's a problem. We can just say we'd funnel.money for any xmpp-related project who asks

  206. pep.

    Guus: re neutrality, I don't think that's a problem. We can just say we'd funnel money for any xmpp-related project who asks

  207. Guus

    maybe take this to the list - also, we should definitely involve the treasurer before moving much further forward.

  208. MattJ

    I can write something up to throw at the list

  209. MattJ

    Also note that I've yet to actually hear back from them in writing (but they were extremly keen at the weekend)

  210. Guus

    Everything needs to start somewhere. Let's hope we can make this happen.

  211. nyco-2

    https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/9ev2-xsfboarddirectorsweeklymeeting-2020-02-06 only one review?

  212. pep.

    I've seen the typo :)

  213. MattJ

    LGTM (apart from the typos :) )

  214. nyco-2


  215. nyco-2 is sending the minutes

  216. nyco-2

    aaaand, sent thx all

  217. Guus

    Thank you nyco-2