XSF Discussion - 2020-02-13

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11:03:41 jubalh I just saw in Profanitys code that it actually only sends request receipts if the capabilities of the other client support this. We had a similar discussion about LMC yesterday. So I think this is wrong and should actually always send them (if enabled) because we dont know which client the other user uses. Correct?
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11:05:34 Holger +1
11:06:11 jubalh I will look out for more such cases now :)
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11:08:23 pep. I'm quite torn with this "send everything anyway" policy tbh. I understand why, but then I feel that forces us to come with ugly "fallback" things that I don't like, "because some clients don't support what we send"
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11:09:49 jubalh hmm but it wont hurt them?
11:10:17 jubalh It will just be some more data send and they wont parse it. and if they are connected with another client they still get the + there
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11:10:42 pep. I'm not happy about the fallback things, not about the "too much" :P
11:11:25 pep. But that's also an argument for some I guess, "too much"
11:12:05 jubalh what do you mean by fallback?
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11:14:13 Zash Having this feature negotiation was one of the big things that makes XMPP better than email. And now we apparently don't have it anymore :(
11:15:53 MattJ I know some kind of "user capabilities" was discussed at the summit (some kind of merging of device capabilities)
11:15:58 MattJ I'm not really a fan of that idea though
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11:44:52 Ge0rG It would be great to be able to loudly proclaim that I'm incapable of OMEMO, no matter what some clients of me claim.
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12:28:40 MattJ That's easily done today
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12:34:52 jonas’ is it?
12:35:23 jonas’ because I want that
12:35:34 jonas’ but LTIC it wasn’t possible because Conversations won’t trust anything the server could’ve said.
12:36:30 pep. You need to remove every keys yeah, and even then the sender needs to disable e2ee because it's on by default, otherwise they get a "Failed to send" or sth :/
12:37:37 jonas’ and prevent clients from re-publishing keys
12:37:42 jonas’ and prevent clients from using cached keys
12:38:35 flow that's the thing with e2ee, there is no way to disable it has been enabled once. at least not without making downgrade attacks easier
12:38:56 flow that's the thing with e2ee, there is no way to disable it, after has been enabled once. at least not without making downgrade attacks easier
12:39:14 jonas’ I haven’t enabled it though.
12:39:29 pep. you "have", unwillingly :p
12:39:36 Ge0rG flow: did you just do LMC?
12:39:38 jonas’ a client did that without asking me
12:39:44 pep. yeah that
12:39:56 Ge0rG jonas’: how dare you installing post-modern clients?
12:39:58 jonas’ I’m not into non-consensual non-consensual stuff.
12:40:13 Ge0rG "no means no!"
12:40:36 jonas’ Ge0rG, I needed multi-account support and stuff
12:41:00 Ge0rG there is a v6 fork, why not also a NOMEMO fork?
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12:55:41 dwd jonas’, Should we be doing anything with XEP-0429, like Last Calling it?
12:57:25 jonas’ dwd, yes most definitely
12:57:49 jonas’ lost track of that one
12:57:54 jonas’ can you add it to the SoD?
12:59:34 dwd jonas’, Done.
13:00:47 jonas’ thx
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14:29:13 ralphm Sorry, I have to skip today. Work.
14:29:28 MattJ No worries
14:29:36 pep. !
14:30:41 flow ~~Ge0rG, no, my poezio-fu is not strong, I always assume that it does LMC if I just select the messagen from history, modify it and sent it~~ ✎
14:30:53 flow Ge0rG, no, my poezio-fu is not strong, I always assume that it does LMC if I just select the message from history, modify it and sent it ✏
14:31:00 flow but I am learning
14:31:02 Ge0rG flow: it doesn't.
14:31:22 Ge0rG flow: I was actually worried that you used a client that generates LMCs that neither of my clients can parse
14:31:36 pep. Trello has nothing for us, I still haven't sent stuff I wanted to discuss (my fault, and I don't want to hijack board meetings to discuss new ideas, that goes on list.), I guess this meeting if it happens is going to be quick
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14:36:00 pep. Seve, Guus?
14:36:02 MattJ I'm fine with skipping
14:36:21 Guus connectivity issues
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14:36:57 pep. A wild Seve appeared a few minutes ago in another channel.
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14:37:25 Guus my internet connection is flaky
14:37:31 Guus I don't mind skipping a week
14:38:23 Seve Yes, sorry
14:38:41 Seve Very much on the same page as you guys
14:38:55 pep. Nothing to add to the agenda then?
14:39:02 Seve Thanks for the ping pep. Btw :)
14:40:07 pep. Ok. See you next week. /me warps back into the nothingness
14:40:42 Ge0rG nothinglessness?
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14:54:20 winfried Has anyone played with this: https://products.office.com/en/business/microsoft-kaizala or analysed it? I spoke a representative of Microsoft Netherlands and he told it is a recently acquired by MS and that it is XMPP based. He seems to be willing to start an internal lobby in MS to give it an external XMPP interface.
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14:57:34 MattJ Not familiar with it, no
14:58:04 Ge0rG winfried: apparently it's included in my o365 subscription, and the first thing it asks for is my mobile number
15:00:10 winfried Ge0rG: :-s listening to the discussion I already had the impression they would some strange things with identity....
15:00:47 winfried I don't have an o365 subscription, so I couldn't test / debug it...
15:00:51 Ge0rG I'm not sure I should try it.
15:00:54 moparisthebest didn't microsoft just kill their (already optional) xmpp interface for "skype for business"
15:01:32 dwd moparisthebest, That was, IIRC, hanging about primarily to support mandatory XMPP usage inside US (and other ) militaries.
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15:02:11 moparisthebest https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/skypeforbusiness/migration/migrating-xmpp-federation
15:02:22 moparisthebest > The XMPP functionality is no longer available and is deprecated in Skype for Business Server 2019.
15:02:35 winfried moparisthebest: probable, the representative wasn't sure if the higher gods would decide to rewrite kaizala to something non-XMPP :-(
15:03:24 dwd I wonder what the API and action card stuff looks like.
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15:08:53 Ge0rG winfried: first thing the app asks for is phone book access.
15:13:04 Ge0rG it looks a bit like Conversations. But maybe all IM apps do?
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15:22:42 winfried Ge0rG: *sigh* they are all the same... https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacyLua/blob/master/README.md
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15:23:09 winfried Ge0rG: thanks for looking BTW...
15:24:11 Ge0rG winfried: they have some really interesting (read: weird) social aspects. You can not create a group without access to the phonebook.
15:24:34 Ge0rG There are three ways to find existing groups: by your location (nearby); by QR code and by a numeric(?) code
15:24:57 Ge0rG oh, public groups are in the "discover" tab
15:27:11 winfried Ge0rG: I guess they use the phone number as some kind of user id. An idea that was fortunately rejected already. :-D
15:27:54 Ge0rG winfried: looks like they are indeed.
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15:28:13 Ge0rG there are 4.5k users in the Office 365 tech room
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15:28:20 Ge0rG I'm pretty sure they aren't using MUC for that
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15:31:20 winfried Interesting!
15:31:59 Ge0rG Also looks like many Indians in there. And things like "how do I get rid of this group" ;)
15:32:42 winfried It is build in India, became populair in India and China and was purchased by MS
15:33:17 winfried They want to have a whatsapp killer
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20:54:50 mohamad 🌷
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22:16:04 moparisthebest flow: since quic supports network roaming across the same connection I'm not sure it'd make sense to smacks over it, I haven't put a ton of thought into it though
22:17:57 Zash MPTCP is apparently in the next Linux version, so maybe we can have that without reinventing the entire stack from scratch
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