XSF Discussion - 2020-02-19

00:00:26 pdurbin has joined
00:15:43 pdurbin has left
00:16:55 moparisthebest Do any servers support https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0078.html anymore?
00:16:59 andy has left
00:17:24 Alex has left
00:19:32 moparisthebest Or might it be worth resurrecting? Since TLS is required and everyone (https world) agrees basic auth is fine, and it doesn't suffer from the "never upgradeable" problems sasl does?
00:20:52 Ellenor Malik sasl is downgrade resistant
00:22:31 moparisthebest And upgrade proof
00:22:34 arc has joined
00:27:12 karoshi has left
00:27:23 dwd moparisthebest, You can get the same effect as XEP-0078 with PLAIN, and essentially the same speed with SASL2, though.
00:27:31 matkor has left
00:27:35 dwd moparisthebest, And you get to choose more secure methods than PLAIN, as well.
00:29:08 moparisthebest I'm not clear on what those are, I know about "channel binding" for instance, and iirc it's been broken before and such, but assuming not who cares anyway
00:30:02 moparisthebest If every http application ever can live without it, what's the point
00:30:26 arc has left
00:30:26 arc has joined
00:31:45 moparisthebest Again, I understand not sending something plaintext across the network that can be used to login as you was absolutely critical when XMPP was written, TLS wasn't the norm then
00:32:13 moparisthebest Is it valuable in a world where everything is TLS though?
00:33:02 mukt2 has joined
00:33:03 dwd HTTP applications often use OAuth, which can be done over SASL but not XEP-0078, for example.
00:34:41 moparisthebest That's normally when you authenticate with a 3rd party service though right?
00:34:56 moparisthebest Like, sign into this site with your GitHub account?
00:35:11 moparisthebest Does anything in XMPP do that?
00:35:22 dwd Yes. But that doesn't matter - point is that SASL is extensible, whereas XEP-0078 isn't.
00:36:08 dwd And certainly some deployments seem to like having channel binding around, or not having plaintext password equivalents on the wire even with TLS in play.
00:36:08 Ellenor Malik moparisthebest: SASL is the pinnacle
00:37:20 moparisthebest Oh I get it's more extensible, it just seems 99% of the time the extra complexity and RTTs is not desirable
00:37:22 matkor has joined
00:38:07 moparisthebest Seems like 0078 should be the norm and sasl the exception nowadays I'm saying?
00:42:26 moparisthebest My impression is this situation is similar to Direct TLS vs STARTLS
00:43:17 mimi89999 has left
00:43:20 mimi89999 has joined
00:50:31 arc has left
00:50:32 arc has joined
01:03:55 mimi89999 has left
01:03:58 mimi89999 has joined
01:06:18 arc has left
01:06:19 arc has joined
01:09:52 lskdjf has left
01:12:15 mimi89999 has left
01:12:19 mimi89999 has joined
01:17:55 mimi89999 has left
01:17:59 mimi89999 has joined
01:18:46 mimi89999 has left
01:18:50 mimi89999 has joined
01:21:53 lskdjf has joined
01:30:35 lskdjf has left
01:33:45 mukt2 has left
01:38:41 andrey.g has left
02:00:22 pdurbin has joined
02:05:04 adiaholic has joined
02:05:13 Max has left
02:08:25 pdurbin has left
02:10:35 Max has joined
02:34:48 mukt2 has joined
03:22:02 Yagiza has joined
03:26:58 adiaholic has left
03:27:00 adiaholic has joined
03:38:12 adiaholic has left
03:38:14 adiaholic has joined
03:38:16 arc has left
03:38:26 arc has joined
03:44:53 pdurbin has joined
04:03:07 arc has left
04:03:07 arc has joined
04:05:36 pdurbin has left
04:18:55 mukt2 has left
04:32:31 Nekit has joined
04:39:18 adiaholic has left
04:45:09 karoshi has joined
04:49:27 andy has joined
04:53:02 adiaholic has joined
05:07:58 lorddavidiii has joined
05:10:38 andrey.g has joined
05:27:41 serge90 has left
05:42:08 Max has left
05:42:54 Max has joined
05:44:43 Tobias has joined
05:47:40 mukt2 has joined
05:54:49 paul has joined
05:56:07 pdurbin has joined
05:57:09 LNJ has joined
06:04:00 serge90 has joined
06:05:06 LNJ has left
06:05:18 LNJ has joined
06:06:00 LNJ has left
06:06:07 LNJ has joined
06:11:37 mukt2 has left
06:18:33 pdurbin has left
06:31:58 arc has left
06:31:59 arc has joined
06:32:19 j.r has left
06:35:32 mukt2 has joined
06:36:13 debxwoody has joined
06:44:27 mukt2 has left
07:01:40 j.r has joined
07:21:04 mukt2 has joined
07:25:40 waqas has left
07:33:38 debxwoody has left
07:35:10 adiaholic has left
07:35:12 adiaholic has joined
07:40:26 mukt2 has left
07:50:49 serge90 has left
07:51:32 flow moparisthebest, I think SASL PLAIN is the same (or at least close to xep78) in terms of complexity and round trips
07:51:48 nyco-2 has joined
07:52:06 nyco-2 has left
07:52:12 mimi89999 has left
07:52:14 nyco-2 has joined
07:52:17 mimi89999 has joined
07:54:53 serge90 has joined
07:58:14 flow dwd, what's the benefit, besides feature discovery maybe, of "simple json" compared to xep335?
07:58:29 flow and will I find an answer ot this question by carefully reading the simple json XEP?
08:02:11 dwd I think so. How would a developer go about using 335? Would it involve more code than simple json?
08:04:18 dwd The comparison isn't between simple json and raw 335, it's between simple json and stuffing json in directly into message bodies.
08:04:54 ellenor has left
08:04:54 Ellenor Malik has left
08:05:11 sonny has joined
08:05:12 ellenor has joined
08:05:18 Ellenor Malik has joined
08:09:55 mukt2 has joined
08:10:42 adiaholic has left
08:12:29 adiaholic has joined
08:29:21 emus has joined
08:30:49 lorddavidiii has left
08:31:37 lorddavidiii has joined
08:35:01 andrey.g has left
08:35:17 mukt2 has left
08:36:24 mukt2 has joined
08:38:20 Daniel Isn't the comparison between stuffing json anywhere and explaining people what the x in xmpp stands for?
08:42:53 Marc has left
08:42:54 Marc has joined
08:44:31 goffi has joined
08:48:02 dwd Pretty much.
08:48:36 mukt2 has left
08:48:42 dwd But I do understand that "Here is a protocol framework. Now off you go and design a protocol and implement it in multiple libraries" is quite a steep learning curve.
08:48:46 Dele Olajide has joined
08:49:28 Ge0rG HTTP REST is even less than a protocol framework.
08:50:00 Ge0rG still isn't over that app downloading 780KB of HTML from Google Play on each launch just to check if it's up-to-date.
08:50:00 dwd Ge0rG, Yes, but you just stuff JSON into named endpoints and you're done.
08:50:51 dwd Ge0rG, And moreover, even if you do download 780k, it won't damage the network. Whereas stuffing JSON into <body/> does, since naive clients can't be used anymore.
08:51:51 Ge0rG League of Legends used to stuff XML into the body, which of course was encoded.
08:52:47 mukt2 has joined
08:53:07 dwd Novel, at least.
08:53:45 Ge0rG I think it's been in use a decade ago.
08:54:16 Ge0rG > Release: October 27, 2009
09:03:33 mukt2 has left
09:16:35 goffi has left
09:16:35 goffi has joined
09:18:16 goffi has left
09:18:24 goffi has joined
09:27:24 Max has left
09:27:26 Max has joined
09:29:41 DebXWoody has left
09:31:55 Dele Olajide has left
09:32:14 Dele Olajide has joined
09:35:15 mimi89999 has left
09:36:35 Alex has joined
09:38:44 mukt2 has joined
09:40:00 lorddavidiii has left
09:40:20 Alex has left
09:40:48 Alex has joined
09:40:49 lorddavidiii has joined
09:45:42 Alex has left
09:47:16 Alex has joined
09:51:01 Alex has left
09:51:07 Alex has joined
09:52:50 Alex has left
09:53:05 DebXWoody has joined
09:55:05 mukt2 has left
09:55:43 Alex has joined
09:57:49 Dele Olajide has left
09:58:09 mukt2 has joined
09:59:37 mimi89999 has joined
09:59:43 arc has left
09:59:44 arc has joined
10:00:01 Dele Olajide has joined
10:05:36 goffi has left
10:07:34 nyco-2 has left
10:07:37 nyco-2 has joined
10:08:34 nyco-2 has left
10:08:36 nyco-2 has joined
10:08:58 goffi has joined
10:13:39 APach has left
10:17:25 larma has left
10:19:09 ralphm Ge0rG, there's no last-modified/etag check upon retrieval?
10:21:02 lskdjf has joined
10:22:50 Ge0rG ralphm: the code is straight from https://stackoverflow.com/a/36509726/539443
10:24:53 Ge0rG It's surprising that almost none of the http client libraries actually supports local caching
10:25:09 Ge0rG so you end up doing it manually, badly. if at all
10:26:12 DebXWoody has left
10:27:12 ralphm That's pretty terrible indeed.
10:29:19 larma has joined
10:29:31 ralphm I.e. I can't get over how little people know about stuff like this, and always get this wrong.
10:30:03 ralphm Especially when people were still doing RSS aggregators.
10:30:50 Ge0rG Hey, encoding a bet on Google not changing their HTML into your app is also a rather dumb decision
10:30:59 APach has joined
10:31:00 Ge0rG Luckily, the app's API designers were competent at least.
10:31:44 ralphm I guess
10:35:41 nyco-2 has left
10:35:45 nyco-2 has joined
10:49:23 DebXWoody has joined
11:06:18 mukt2 has left
11:06:22 mukt2 has joined
11:07:11 nyco-2 has left
11:07:14 nyco-2 has joined
11:10:28 larma has left
11:10:40 andrey.g has joined
11:22:15 Max has left
11:22:31 Max has joined
11:23:38 larma has joined
11:25:08 MattJ should iq type="get" *never* have side-effects?
11:25:32 MattJ Because we have an example of such in... RFC 6121
11:25:58 MattJ Requesting the roster "subscribes" you to roster pushes
11:26:15 Zash Wat
11:27:17 larma vanitasvitae: do XMPP libraries typically provide APIs to easily send arbitrary XML? I was under the assumption they don't make it that easy
11:27:41 MattJ > If a connected resource or available resource requests the roster, it is referred to as an "interested resource". The server MUST send roster pushes to all interested resources.
11:28:49 MattJ larma, totally depends on the library
11:29:16 vanitasvitae larma: in Smack you could do it fairly easily I think
11:29:29 MattJ Some are high level, and try to hide everything from you, some are low level and offer barely any XMPP stuff - some fall in between (you could say they fail at both)
11:30:00 arc has left
11:30:00 arc has joined
11:30:42 vanitasvitae Yeah, in Smack you can parse the XML into a "StandardExtensionElement" and append that to your messages.
11:31:14 larma vanitasvitae: that isn't what I would call an easy API
11:31:59 vanitasvitae ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
11:32:32 vanitasvitae PR welcome :P
11:32:43 pep. MattJ, ugh (re roster). I can see why that's been done but that seems like breaking some assumptions indeed
11:33:25 larma I just wonder how we are considering to add stream.send_json(to, json), when we don't have stream.send_xml(to, XML)
11:33:26 Alex has left
11:33:28 MattJ It seems obvious that 99% of the time if you request the information you are also interested in changes to that information
11:33:58 Alex has joined
11:34:34 pep. That seems like a bold assumption to make. Especially since we have mechanisms to say we're interested in the data
11:34:55 Alex has left
11:35:05 Link Mauve pep., they wouldn’t be atomic.
11:35:34 Alex has joined
11:35:42 pep. what do you mean
11:36:29 Link Mauve pep., caps to your server may be known to your server long after you’ve requested the roster.
11:36:41 Link Mauve In the meantime, you would miss roster pushes.
11:40:13 pep. Seems like an edge-case no? Or maybe there's something missing for this kind of case (subscribing to data around bind)
11:43:29 MattJ Atomic get-and-subscribe is quite an important operation to have
11:43:31 mukt2 has left
11:44:38 pep. Yes but it this really what we want for iq type="get"? :x
11:45:12 pep. Does that mean because I've requested somebody's version I want to know now everytime they change
11:51:24 mukt2 has joined
11:51:39 MattJ The XEP doesn't specify that behaviour, so no, it doesn't mean that
11:51:51 MattJ It means instead that you have to poll if you ever do want that :)
11:53:54 lorddavidiii has left
11:55:32 lorddavidiii has joined
11:55:35 dwd larma, Most libraries let you send/receive arbitrary XML, in various ways that are individually reasonably sane. The problem is that they're all radically different from one another and involve a lot of implied knowledge to use well.
11:56:42 larma Yeah, but we are we then not unifying/easying the use of custom XML in XMPP and instead only unify/ease the use of custom JSON in XMPP?
11:56:51 larma Yeah, but why are we then not unifying/easying the use of custom XML in XMPP and instead only unify/ease the use of custom JSON in XMPP?
11:57:41 dwd larma, I can't think of a way to do that without essentially distilling it into "learn XMPP really good".
11:57:43 mtavares has left
11:58:11 dwd larma, Don't get me wrong; that's my preferred solution. I just think it's impractical.
12:00:50 Dele Olajide has left
12:01:13 larma Why?
12:01:49 larma Also, why is it required to learn xmpp really good for that?
12:04:28 Daniel does anyone know of a thing that is an xmpp client on one end and a rest api on the other?
12:05:13 Daniel with rest calls to send; and where you can put in (http) callbacks for notifications
12:05:55 Daniel bot developers these days can’t be bothered to connect to anything not http
12:06:03 dwd Daniel, Like the Prosody API, or XMPP-FTW?
12:06:23 Daniel maybe. let me take a look
12:06:47 dwd larma, I don't know where you'd start with trying to create a generic API. I got a lot of pushback for including the sketch in the original UDT.
12:08:07 dwd Daniel, I don't know how maintained XMPP-FTW is, now. At one point it was heavily worked on by Lloyd, but he's moved onto other things and I don't know anyone else picked it up. It was, at one point, looking as if it'd merge the XML <-> JSON translations bits with stanza.io^Wjs.
12:08:51 larma dwd: when searching for how to do custom XML in smack I found https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6387947/how-to-send-custom-xml-packet-using-javas-smack-api which basically says, "here is how you, but don't do it"
12:11:46 larma It already starts with the requirement to define a namespace...
12:12:18 Daniel dwd, yeah; probably something like mod_rest for prosody. probably a little less generic; and kinda scoped to one user (callbacks for just one user; not all users)
12:14:56 larma dwd: can we at least agree that it should just be sending strings instead of json so that it can be any notation, or just strings, or base64 encoded binary, or ... Also that would allow libraries to not care about json at all (the current proposal requires libraries implementing it to at least include a json validator)
12:16:05 Zash Daniel: Use case? Bots or something?
12:16:16 Daniel Zash: yes bots
12:17:38 Zash I'd like mod_rest to support that. Currently it's probably awkward unless you give the bot an entire domain
12:19:32 Daniel Yes. Mod_rest isn't too far of from what we want to do. Except that. And except that we have only limited control over the server (don't ask) and are not running prosody
12:20:20 dwd has left
12:24:54 LNJ has left
12:25:03 LNJ has joined
12:25:39 moparisthebest that is generally my complaint with about every XMPP library I've ever used, they all make you jump through a series of hoops when I just want to send a String
12:28:52 Zash Daniel: mod_component_client! (Connect Prosody as a 114 component to another XMPP server)
12:29:26 Link Mauve Daniel, you also have mod_slack_webhooks, which AIUI lets Slack bots connect to Prosody.
12:30:01 Zash moparisthebest: That's a good thing IMO. Pain to enforce well-formedness and stanza counting for 198 if you just get strings.
12:30:20 Daniel Link Mauve: oh that might be interesting
12:31:43 Zash We have a ton of variations of this, sending messages via http. mod_rest is kinda meant to be the one that does it all
12:32:32 Zash I wonder i f this is something we wanna standardize tho, "HTTP based component/bot interface"
12:33:57 Link Mauve This has been proposed at Summit, but other things took priority.
12:35:23 moparisthebest Zash, so if you are building a client or, something serious it's a good thing, if you just want to experiment quickly not so much
12:36:05 moparisthebest I tend to think they should be built in layers, bottom just deals with strings, slightly higher XML, over that you have your normal API that helps with things
12:36:57 Link Mauve Oh, you actually meant printf XML?
12:37:00 pep. larma, yeah I tend to agree with that. since it's really application specific I'm not sure why we'd restrict it to JSON, not sure why the library would fiddle with that
12:37:11 Zash Sure, but I think you still wanna discourage people from sending raw strings too often.
12:37:14 pep. And I don,t really see the point in specifying it anyway
12:38:08 moparisthebest last night I was purposefully trying to send ridiculous things to see how servers would handle them for instance, ended up just not using any library because none of them had good support for this, so "testing" would be at least one use-case
12:41:14 pep. moparisthebest, in any library it's possible to declare new tags to include as part of stanzas.. I am all for writing (better) documentation in libraries
12:41:27 Zash I know in verse you can access the underlying socket and do whatever, but it's easy to compose arbitrary xml without reaching for strings
12:41:42 Zash And prosody too
12:42:36 Daniel Not just documentation. Also make it easier. The way slixmpp does it is horrible
12:42:54 Daniel Where as prosody stuff is relatively easy to understand
12:43:15 pep. Daniel, I don't disagree about slixmpp being horrible :)
12:43:59 Daniel I mean for complex things prosody also gets in your way
12:44:07 Link Mauve I usually found the declarative way in slixmpp (and in stanza.io and various other projects from Lance) to be quite good for extensibility.
12:44:23 Daniel But for a simple I want to add a key value pair it's super easy
12:45:02 pep. Link Mauve, fwiw I'm still confused when adding an ElementBase in slix
12:45:11 Link Mauve Really? :/
12:45:24 pep. "what attributes do I need again, and what do they do"
12:45:28 moparisthebest https://github.com/moparisthebest/jDnsProxy/blob/master/xmpp-dox/src/main/java/com/moparisthebest/dns/xmpp/DnsIq.java#L41 java/smack isn't much better here
12:48:44 Daniel The slack webhook thing is kinda nice
12:49:18 Daniel I mean it's not exactly what we need. But it helps me understand the problem space better
12:52:12 Dele Olajide has joined
12:53:13 Zash MUC bots needing to actually join the relevant rooms is a bit awkward, the slack thing doesn't have that problem. But it's awkward in another direction instead IIRC
12:58:48 Dele Olajide has left
12:58:58 Dele Olajide has joined
12:59:23 Dele Olajide has left
13:00:01 Dele Olajide has joined
13:03:36 adiaholic has left
13:03:38 adiaholic has joined
13:04:25 Yagiza has left
13:04:59 flow > larma> I just wonder how we are considering to add stream.send_json(to, json), when we don't have stream.send_xml(to, XML) Probably because the data users want to send is already in json. And that does not mean that an API should (or can) not provide "sendXml(to, xml)"
13:07:10 Zash send_whatever(to, mimetype, binary, data)
13:07:18 pep. What Zash say
13:07:30 pep. I personally don't want to include 42 parsers in my lib. Let the user validate themselves
13:08:00 pep. Even though.. I'm not fond of the mimetype thing
13:08:07 pep. I'd say s/mimetype/namespace/ :)
13:08:59 flow > moparisthebest> that is generally my complaint with about every XMPP library I've ever used, they all make you jump through a series of hoops when I just want to send a String One of the first things Jive Software implemented in Smack ~20 years ago was an API to make that easy
13:10:19 flow pep., I don't think including a parser is a necessary prerequisite for such an API
13:10:44 flow Zash, binary *and* data?
13:11:03 Zash flow: boolean for whether to base64 the data blob I guess
13:11:20 flow ahh, is_binary (or so) then
13:11:41 pep. isn't udt^WJSONthing requiring the JSON data to be validated? (well it does say "JSON", that means valid JSON)
13:12:01 lorddavidiii has left
13:12:26 Zash (mod_rest has a thing for udt already)
13:12:42 flow pep., if you are prepared to receive json, then you probalby have a json parser (and validator) already available,
13:12:46 moparisthebest validation sounds like the recipient's problem :P
13:13:05 flow I don't think I would bundle one with smack if I where to implement something like simple json
13:13:30 pep. moparisthebest, if you implement that you implement both sides
13:13:42 pep. I guess
13:13:51 moparisthebest s/recipient/consumer of that json data/
13:14:20 pep. In any case, I don't think all of this is necessary anyway..
13:15:56 mukt2 has left
13:22:13 lorddavidiii has joined
13:24:01 adiaholic has left
13:24:09 adiaholic has joined
13:28:37 adiaholic has left
13:28:40 adiaholic has joined
13:29:17 Yagiza has joined
13:30:11 eevvoor has joined
13:31:02 mukt2 has joined
13:36:03 adiaholic has left
13:36:05 adiaholic has joined
13:36:18 Dele (Mobile) has joined
13:37:33 adiaholic has left
13:37:53 adiaholic has joined
13:39:38 mukt2 has left
13:46:10 mukt2 has joined
13:48:29 adiaholic has left
13:48:32 adiaholic has joined
13:49:17 Dele Olajide has left
13:51:32 Dele Olajide has joined
13:52:34 Dele Olajide has left
13:52:46 Dele Olajide has joined
13:53:32 pdurbin has joined
13:54:52 adiaholic has left
13:55:25 lorddavidiii has left
13:55:26 Dele Olajide has left
13:55:30 Dele (Mobile) has left
13:55:40 Dele Olajide has joined
13:56:08 lorddavidiii has joined
13:57:16 Dele Olajide has left
13:57:32 Dele Olajide has joined
14:03:32 Dele Olajide has left
14:04:03 Dele Olajide has joined
14:05:59 pdurbin has left
14:06:30 Dele Olajide has left
14:06:51 Dele Olajide has joined
14:07:14 Dele Olajide has left
14:10:19 pdurbin has joined
14:12:31 Dele Olajide has joined
14:13:00 Dele Olajide has left
14:20:47 larma flow, if you don't validate that the string provided by the user is in fact valid JSON, one could argue that you are not standards compliant, because the json XEP clearly clarifies that what is in a <json> element MUST be valid JSON according to (insert reference to RFC here)
14:21:46 flow larma, I didn't say that nobody should validate it. Just that it don't see it as strictly necessary to include a json validator in smack if I where to add support for something like simple json
14:21:54 moparisthebest larma, is it the library's job to ensure anything sent using it is standards compliant? that sounds... very wrong?
14:22:10 moparisthebest how do you develop new extensions then, for example
14:23:25 larma moparisthebest, not in general, but when it provides a highly abstract API, like the send_json(to, data) I would expect it to only send standards compliant things on the wire
14:23:33 Dele Olajide has joined
14:24:24 Dele Olajide has left
14:24:43 Dele Olajide has joined
14:24:49 larma I also expect it to escape my strings when I do send(to, body) with body = "x < pi &&", no?
14:25:25 Dele Olajide has left
14:25:34 flow sure, but if you already ensure in a higher level that 'data' is valid json, then it only adds an unnecessary validation step if the library performs another check if data is json
14:25:43 moparisthebest if the API lets me send a string I expect it to send exactly the bytes I tell it to
14:26:03 moparisthebest if the API lets me send some XML object, then I expect that XML lib to do that kind of escaping
14:26:25 flow I does not really hurt, but I don't see it a strict requirement for a library to perform that validation here
14:26:30 Kev I suspect that's an unusual position. If would find it surprising if message->setBody(someString) required me to first escape somString.
14:26:57 moparisthebest yea ^ that sounds like the second thing, some XML object that should be escaping things
14:27:00 flow some goes for the receiving side
14:27:10 Dele Olajide has joined
14:27:28 flow also "escaping rules" != "validating something"
14:28:04 eevvoor has left
14:28:17 moparisthebest if all xmpp client libs refuse to send non-valid things, how are we testing that server implementations deal with bad input correctly? (or are we?)
14:29:05 pep. moparisthebest, I doubt allowing to send bad input is a good API
14:29:07 larma Do you think it should be allowed to do send_json("test@example.com", "urn:example:type", "Nope, I don't do JSON here")? And on the recipient side it would just provide a string. So that if people don't want to do JSON they'll just end up using that method and we have an even worse problem as right now with JSON in body
14:29:21 pep. You can have escape hatches for sure in the lib
14:29:25 pep. But that shouldn't be the default
14:29:33 moparisthebest well sure, completely agree there
14:31:56 Kev At least for Swiften the idea is that stuff you send should largely be valid, and that there's an escape hatch for shoving octets onto the wire (which will break everything).
14:32:21 Kev i.e. it makes it hard to do the Wrong Thing.
14:33:43 moparisthebest sounds right, no argument there
14:41:37 calvin has joined
14:44:16 Marc has left
14:45:03 Marc has joined
14:45:46 nyco-2 has left
14:45:50 nyco-2 has joined
14:50:30 Dele Olajide has left
14:50:46 Dele Olajide has joined
14:52:21 lorddavidiii has left
14:54:13 pdurbin has left
14:54:49 lorddavidiii has joined
14:57:19 Wojtek has joined
14:58:29 mukt2 has left
14:59:57 calvin has left
15:06:03 calvin has joined
15:10:13 mukt2 has joined
15:17:24 adiaholic has joined
15:28:46 andrey.g has left
15:30:58 mukt2 has left
15:31:01 mukt2 has joined
15:34:28 Nekit has left
15:34:32 Nekit has joined
15:35:52 Dele Olajide has left
15:36:07 Dele Olajide has joined
15:38:00 rion has left
15:38:02 rion has joined
15:39:28 david has left
15:44:43 andrey.g has joined
15:44:57 david has joined
15:45:29 nyco-2 has left
15:46:30 mukt2 has left
15:51:32 mukt2 has joined
15:58:26 Link Mauve moparisthebest, I’d also expect a library implementing JSON to not take a raw string as input, but the language representation of the JSON thing (for instance a Python dict containing lists and other dicts and strings and such), so that the user of the library couldn’t do it wrong.
15:58:58 Link Mauve Of course, the raw XML extension API wouldn’t do this validation, so you could send invalid JSON using it.
16:00:35 mukt2 has left
16:02:45 Dele Olajide has left
16:03:01 Dele Olajide has joined
16:03:09 lovetox has joined
16:03:32 Dele Olajide has left
16:04:05 mukt2 has joined
16:04:06 Dele Olajide has joined
16:08:51 Dele Olajide has left
16:09:20 Dele Olajide has joined
16:30:55 Dele Olajide has left
16:31:07 Dele Olajide has joined
16:31:31 mukt2 has left
16:33:14 Douglas Terabyte has joined
16:33:44 Douglas Terabyte has left
16:33:48 Douglas Terabyte has joined
16:36:05 Dele Olajide has left
16:46:47 Nekit has left
16:48:18 nyco-2 has joined
16:48:31 pdurbin has joined
16:54:31 Douglas Terabyte has left
17:00:00 adiaholic has left
17:00:02 adiaholic has joined
17:01:30 calvin has left
17:01:31 calvin has joined
17:05:18 pdurbin has left
17:10:10 david has left
17:11:06 david has joined
17:11:37 Ellenor Malik Ryanair just screwed everything.
17:12:28 Ellenor Malik Do I have to, like, hire Landor myself to come up with a new brand name for XMPP?
17:12:39 Link Mauve Snikket it is.
17:13:41 Ellenor Malik except that's not XMPP. That's a subset of XMPP
17:14:00 Link Mauve How so?
17:14:09 Ellenor Malik one could argue it's even a "proprietary" messenger.
17:14:17 Link Mauve Good luck, but how?
17:14:37 mukt2 has joined
17:14:45 moparisthebest what? how could you argue that?
17:15:39 jonas’ Ellenor Malik, that’s bullshit.
17:15:44 nyco-2 has left
17:15:58 jonas’ of course it’s a subset of XMPP. why would it need support for the IoT XEPs.
17:16:07 jonas’ and it’s all free and libre software, there’s nothing proprietary about it.
17:16:55 Ellenor Malik "XMPP is not Snikket's focus."
17:17:02 jonas’ you misunderstood that
17:17:20 Ellenor Malik https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/f0el07/can_someone_explain_to_me_whats_the_point_of
17:17:23 jonas’ MattJ explained it in more detail here: https://old.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/f0el07/can_someone_explain_to_me_whats_the_point_of/fgto5h0/
17:18:21 nyco-2 has joined
17:18:25 jonas’ you know about that thread, so I’m assuming you are intentionally ignoring data
17:18:33 Ellenor Malik > jonas’ has written: > of course it’s a subset of XMPP. why would it need support for the IoT XEPs. why do you need a whole-ass XEP for IoT anyway? the way you control IoT on IRC is just by a standard privmsg, and XMPP doesn't need to be any different
17:19:05 nyco-2 has left
17:19:26 Dele Olajide has joined
17:19:49 Link Mauve Ellenor Malik, err, no.
17:20:07 moparisthebest Ellenor Malik, my take is for developers that know to search "xmpp" there are numerous servers/clients/etc, for "users" that just want "to chat", that's what snikket seems to be targeting, it's still standard/interoperable/federating/open xmpp
17:20:07 Link Mauve Encoding machine-readable stuff in the body would be utterly stupid.
17:22:15 Ellenor Malik moparisthebest: the whitelabel clone of conversations is refusing to connect to under-compliant XMPP servers. to me that seems far too close to a proprietary system for anyone to be comfortable with it
17:22:48 Link Mauve Ellenor Malik, you mean that your server didn’t implement XEP-0401 yet?
17:23:08 Link Mauve That’s a complaint to direct to your server implementation, not to that client.
17:23:19 Link Mauve That’s a complaint to direct to your server implementation, not to a client using it.
17:23:29 Daniel it's also not true
17:23:45 Daniel i’m fairly certain that snikket would open xmpp:anyserver.tld?register
17:24:23 Daniel not sure why you would want to use snikket with non snikket servers
17:24:30 Daniel but if you wanted to you could
17:24:37 mukt2 has left
17:24:53 moparisthebest if you know about non-snikket servers then snikket probably isn't for you
17:26:09 Dele Olajide has left
17:26:25 Dele Olajide has joined
17:26:34 Daniel The amount of bullshit and conspiracy theories that go around when ever someone - who has a well established record for working in the xsf - tries something new, is unbelievable
17:26:57 Daniel Happened to me with Quicksy as well
17:27:01 jonas’ it’s almost as if people didn’t want XMPP to change to something successful
17:27:39 Ellenor Malik it's almost as if refusing to connect to slightly behind the curve servers amounts to vendor lockin
17:28:10 jonas’ some call it vendor lock-in, others call "providing a decent UX in a federated system"
17:28:15 jonas’ take it or leave it, noones forcing you
17:28:19 jonas’ MattJ won’t make Snikket not federate.
17:28:26 jonas’ I’m rather confident in that.
17:28:33 moparisthebest anecdotal quicksy story, was having an argument about why xmpp was superior to everything in an IRC channel recently, and they brought up how hard it was to install Conversations and know what a JID and a server etc was, get an account, compared to Signal where you just install it and it works
17:28:50 moparisthebest I said "what about Quicksy" and got "oh, hadn't seen that before, looks really nice"
17:29:02 moparisthebest another one brought over to the dark side >:)
17:29:21 jonas’ puts some cookies on the table
17:29:52 Ellenor Malik if you think I'm mentally ill now, try feeding me some cookies.
17:30:04 moparisthebest I'm not personally going to use Quicksy or Snikket, I already have a setup I like, but I am VERY happy to recommend them to others that do not
17:30:24 Ellenor Malik (don't)
17:36:38 Ellenor Malik > jonas’ has written: > some call it vendor lock-in, others call "providing a decent UX in a federated system" the alternative is to prompt. "The presence server you have chosen does not support all of the features of Snikket. At this stage, you have three choices. Continue connecting, and experience marginally degraded functionality (you'll still be able to chat and join conferences), pick another server (and then the client can call a few web servers in a round-robin which can recommend a few servers based on geography), or, if you know the server administrator personally, flame them and tell them to upgrade to Snikket." > take it or leave it, noones forcing you Welcome to juntist Brazil. > MattJ won’t make Snikket not federate. > I’m rather confident in that. still, makes me uncomfortable
17:37:59 Daniel Ellenor Malik: can you post a screen shot of the error message where it says you can't use a certain server?
17:38:17 Ellenor Malik ...
17:39:49 calvin has left
17:39:49 calvin has joined
17:39:52 Ellenor Malik i was providing an example of an error message I would supply if the server was not fully compliant.
17:40:39 Daniel No. You said earlier that snikket is doing vendor lock in. I'm asking you to provide proof for that
17:41:11 Zash I just got Snikket (client) to connect to my main account on my non-snikket server that doesn't even have registration.
17:41:27 Ellenor Malik Zash: oookaaayy
17:41:57 Zash Had to `qrencode -t ansi 'xmpp:me@myserver.tld?register'` and uncheck a hidden checkbox tho
17:42:43 Ellenor Malik that's more than a mite absurd
17:42:52 Ellenor Malik I'm pretty sure on the server side snikket refers to a feature set and not a specific server
17:43:10 moparisthebest yes "modern xmpp" for lack of a better term
17:43:20 Zash Huh
17:44:11 jonas’ moparisthebest, better term .... liiiike .... snikket?
17:44:26 moparisthebest sure :)
17:45:29 Ellenor Malik Zash: having to qrencode the registration seems more than a mite barrier to entry shaped
17:46:03 mukt2 has joined
17:46:16 Zash No, quite the opposite
17:46:16 Ellenor Malik (she says, while planning a Website for her XMPP server which will do just that)
17:46:59 Zash QR code with `xmpp:example.com?register` on your website would work just fine in Conversations too
17:47:13 moparisthebest Ellenor Malik, have you ever instead tried to send someone a username and password over SMS or something
17:47:38 sonny has left
17:47:44 sonny has joined
17:48:43 Ellenor Malik the main issue is getting people to transcribe domain names
17:49:03 moparisthebest also the people that always capitalize the first letter of everything without telling you
17:49:12 Dele Olajide has left
17:49:56 Ellenor Malik why are we sending passwords over SMS anyway?
17:50:03 Dele Olajide has joined
17:51:39 moparisthebest I said or something :)
17:52:00 moparisthebest I've done it using Silence before
17:52:08 Ellenor Malik ... but why are we sending qr codes over SMS?
17:52:22 calvin has left
17:52:22 calvin has joined
17:52:51 moparisthebest you don't
17:53:14 Ellenor Malik I should probably come up with a module to an XMPP server that makes it so that users can only federate if they verify their phone number
17:53:34 moparisthebest what are you going to use to verify phone number?
17:53:36 Ellenor Malik that is, they can only message out of the local server
17:53:46 jonas’ Ellenor Malik, sounds like a plan for anti-spam in some deployments
17:53:56 eevvoor has joined
17:54:18 moparisthebest Ellenor Malik, also sounds like you are just talking about https://www.kontalk.net/
17:54:41 Ellenor Malik everything that can be done by someone with a 132 iq has already been done
17:55:00 moparisthebest fyi that's mostly standard xmpp too and federates
17:55:11 moparisthebest last I checked he was taking out the non-standard extensions slowly
17:55:27 Ellenor Malik probably preparing to shut down
17:55:30 Ellenor Malik which is bad
17:57:11 Dele Olajide has left
17:57:22 Dele Olajide has joined
17:57:42 dwd has joined
18:02:59 mukt2 has left
18:08:35 j.r has left
18:08:49 adiaholic has left
18:08:51 adiaholic has joined
18:09:19 Dele Olajide has left
18:10:17 Wojtek has left
18:10:44 Wojtek has joined
18:12:28 mukt2 has joined
18:13:15 SubPub has joined
18:15:08 arc has left
18:15:08 arc has joined
18:15:10 arc has left
18:15:11 arc has joined
18:30:17 sonny has left
18:30:54 mukt2 has left
18:31:30 calvin has left
18:31:30 calvin has joined
18:32:44 calvin has left
18:32:45 calvin has joined
18:35:20 j.r has joined
18:37:45 arc has left
18:37:45 arc has joined
18:40:20 david has left
18:40:23 david has joined
18:45:50 LNJ has left
18:46:41 mukt2 has joined
18:47:06 Douglas Terabyte has joined
18:47:15 rion has left
18:47:18 rion has joined
18:48:46 pdurbin has joined
18:55:02 Douglas Terabyte has left
19:02:13 pdurbin has left
19:02:15 david has left
19:06:50 mukt2 has left
19:12:18 mukt2 has joined
19:16:08 krauq has left
19:16:12 SubPub has left
19:16:34 david has joined
19:20:17 Yagiza has left
19:24:23 krauq has joined
19:26:02 mukt2 has left
19:26:04 mukt2 has joined
19:27:18 MattJ I'm happy that most people in the community do understand the motivation behind Snikket <3
19:27:38 MattJ and yes, you can connect to non-Snikket servers with the Snikket app, and yes, you can connect to a Snikket server from a non-Snikket app
19:28:09 Marc has left
19:28:11 Marc has joined
19:28:17 MattJ But it's not advertised that way because that's not really what provides the best user experience
19:28:47 MattJ and I have had to explain to multiple people who try to use Snikket with non-Snikket servers that they really really should just go and use Conversations
19:28:53 moparisthebest you'd have to explain "what is XMPP" to people that *just* want a chat app
19:29:04 MattJ The problem is that anyone in this room, or who even knows what XMPP is most likely is not the target audience for Snikket
19:29:42 moparisthebest *eyes glaze over* thinks to self: when will this idiot shut up so I can just go install Signal
19:30:18 MattJ Off to dinner now, don't worry :)
19:31:02 moparisthebest haha sorry if the sarcasm wasn't implied, that's an impression of a user who just wants a chat app when you go into a "what is XMPP and why is it the best" explanation
19:33:47 adiaholic has left
19:38:49 Douglas Terabyte has joined
19:43:14 MattJ :)
19:45:51 !XSF_Martin Don't explain it, just force them to use it. 😃
19:46:35 calvin has left
19:47:12 debacle has joined
19:49:21 Shell has joined
19:50:32 mukt2 has left
19:50:37 mukt2 has joined
19:54:36 krauq has left
19:56:30 Ellenor Malik MattJ: would it not be ideal to splash up a warning when a non-snikket compliant server is used?
19:56:53 Ellenor Malik https://upload.umbrellix.net:5281/upload/PzgVtgcc8O76UlW8/20200219_115631210.m4a
19:58:20 krauq has joined
20:06:22 mukt2 has left
20:10:35 LNJ has joined
20:12:07 mukt2 has joined
20:12:23 jonas’ I’m halfway through writing down the (xmpp) protocol used by search.jabber.network in a proper ProtoXEP by the way.
20:12:33 jonas’ or rather, a cleaned up variant of that.
20:13:39 Marc has left
20:13:49 moparisthebest nice
20:14:31 Marc has joined
20:15:22 david has left
20:16:08 calvin has joined
20:17:13 kuvoh has joined
20:17:55 kuvoh has left
20:18:03 pep. for s.j.n, I'd like not to have to use HTTP btw, and some clients seemed to prefer that for possible anonymity purposes. jonas’ would it be a problem for you if servers provided anon hosts that have s.j.n whitelisted? (so potentially you could get spammed from all around)
20:18:27 jonas’ pep., interesting idea
20:18:34 jonas’ I mean, I can get spammed via HTTP already
20:18:39 pep. Right
20:18:39 jonas’ and with tor you can make that even more fun
20:18:45 jonas’ I don’t block anything at the moment
20:18:57 jonas’ but we’ll have to write down how to behave when I reply with rate-limiting error codes
20:19:28 kuvoh has joined
20:19:41 jonas’ also, see what I wrote in https://github.com/horazont/muchopper/issues/51
20:19:54 kuvoh has left
20:20:08 mukt2 has left
20:20:13 moparisthebest <body>{"code":"502", "message":"please come back later"}</body>
20:20:20 jonas’ stomps moparisthebest
20:20:49 jonas’ to make this less painful: <error type='wait'><resource-constraint xmlns='...'/><rate-limit xmlns='urn:xmpp:channel-search:0'/></error>
20:22:06 mukt2 has joined
20:24:08 jonas’ moparisthebest, there’s SO MUCH wrong with that. I can only compliment you, you put a lot of triggers in just 63 bytes.
20:24:30 jonas’ only thing that’s missing is some unicode shenangians
20:26:17 Alex_ has joined
20:26:17 Alex_ has left
20:26:17 Alex__ has joined
20:26:23 david has joined
20:26:27 moparisthebest jonas’, lol yea "how to trigger XMPP developers in only 63 characters!!!"
20:27:02 moparisthebest also HTTP developers if they are paying attention
20:27:18 lskdjf has left
20:27:25 lskdjf has joined
20:27:43 moparisthebest I guess I could have used smart quotes instead...
20:27:52 jonas’ oarrr
20:32:59 calvin has left
20:34:50 MattJ 😁
20:42:06 moparisthebest jonas’, just for you <body>{“code”: “502”, “message”: “please come back later”}</body>
20:42:48 Zash What have you cursed us with‽
20:50:35 Max has left
20:50:48 mukt2 has left
20:50:49 Max has joined
20:51:31 calvin has joined
20:54:13 calvin has left
20:54:13 calvin has joined
20:55:02 marc has left
20:57:13 mukt2 has joined
21:02:42 marc has joined
21:03:13 Marc has left
21:17:13 pdurbin has joined
21:17:17 Shell has left
21:17:27 Shell has joined
21:19:48 arc has left
21:19:48 arc has joined
21:21:21 Shell has left
21:31:19 pdurbin has left
21:36:06 Shell has joined
21:37:20 Tobias has left
21:38:06 lovetox has left
21:41:24 mukt2 has left
21:45:09 lorddavidiii has left
21:48:23 Shell has left
21:48:23 Shell has joined
22:00:19 mathijs has left
22:01:42 calvin has left
22:02:59 mukt2 has joined
22:05:25 karoshi has left
22:05:42 karoshi has joined
22:06:16 Wojtek has left
22:06:35 LNJ has left
22:14:38 eevvoor has left
22:15:25 LNJ has joined
22:19:43 arc has left
22:19:50 arc has joined
22:22:00 mukt2 has left
22:32:47 gav has left
22:34:13 gav has joined
22:38:02 pep. I have moved the Summit minutes (pad) to the wiki, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24#Minutes
22:38:47 pep. I wanted to do something a bit more elaborated, but I don't have much time so that'll do. There is still quite a few pieces missing, I'd appreciate if people present could have a look
22:41:19 LNJ has left
22:47:59 mukt2 has joined
22:58:12 goffi has left
23:03:58 Shell has left
23:07:01 mukt2 has left
23:17:55 pdurbin has joined
23:17:57 sonny has joined
23:17:59 mukt2 has joined
23:18:12 adiaholic has joined
23:22:26 karoshi has left
23:25:19 Shell has joined
23:28:59 mukt2 has left
23:33:00 mukt2 has joined
23:36:49 SubPub has joined
23:37:57 emus has left
23:38:43 adiaholic has left
23:38:46 adiaholic has joined
23:38:58 debacle has left
23:39:51 debacle has joined
23:42:07 debacle has left
23:44:45 pdurbin has left
23:52:01 mukt2 has left
23:54:35 raghavgururajan has joined