XSF Discussion - 2020-02-25

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  241. MattJ How do client devs feel about implementing references of type=mention?
  242. Kev Feel in what sense?
  243. MattJ Why does (afaict) only a single client support it right now?
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  246. Kev I think it's particularly useful for servers too, when generating notifications.
  247. MattJ Right, I'm involved in such a project
  248. Kev But I'm intending Swift does them when we get to it.
  249. MattJ But if you use most XMPP clients with this server, no notifications are generated
  250. jonas’ MattJ, I don’t feel particularly enthusiastic about implementing anything References until my comments from three years ago are at least addressed
  251. jonas’ and by addressed, in this context, I mean "replied to", because not even that happende (beyond "someone will rewrite the XEP soon so no point in dealing with this right now")
  252. jonas’ oh, just two years: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-March/034559.html
  253. MattJ Is it related to character counting? or something else?
  254. MattJ I thought the character counting stuff reached some kind of consensus
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  257. MattJ and that was the primary blocker in my mind
  258. Kev MattJ: I mean when the server is generating push notifications, it can do so based on the presence of a mention reference. As well.
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  260. Kev MattJ: Jonas also (sensibly) wanted extensible reference types (mentions etc.).
  261. MattJ Kev, you mean "as well as text scanning"?
  262. Kev MattJ: I mean as well as the receiving client generating notifications based on something having put mentions in.
  263. MattJ It's a tough sell for me to add a feature that emails someone with the nick "max" every time someone asks "what's the max number of items this can handle?"
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  266. MattJ Their current stance is "Why don't XMPP clients support mentions? The ecosystem seems terrible"
  267. Kev I don't think I'm suggesting that, am I?
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  270. Kev I'm not intentionally doing so, at least!
  271. Zash What's this then MattJ ?
  272. MattJ Zash, only works if I'm online and connected, and their primary client is a web app
  273. MattJ and I don't want to use it, but I can't notify people when I send them a message :)
  274. MattJ (and this isn't just about me - they /want/ to say they support arbitrary XMPP clients)
  275. MattJ But if they advertise that as a feature, people will wonder why nobody answers them when they mention them
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  283. Zash Cry and implement some server-side heuristics? Like only looking for nicknames at the start of lines
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  321. Alex I have started memberbot for collection votes on our current Q1-2020 application period
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  329. Jeybe Hey all. What XEP does a Client / Server need to support for sending and receiving if a message was read?
  330. Jeybe Is this done within XEP-0085: Chat State Notifications or is there something seperate / additional?
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  333. jonas’ Jeybe, XEP-0184 (Message Receipts)
  334. Jeybe Isn't that just a delivery receipt and no info about whether a message was read or not?
  335. Jeybe Or do I get that wrong
  336. pep. Alex, thanks
  337. Kev Jeybe: You're correct. People typically use 333 for that.
  338. Kev https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0333.html
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  343. Jeybe Kev: Ah, thank you. Many clients seem to support this, although it's a deferred spec. Just no one who is able or willing to finish it correctly?
  344. pep. Deferred doesn't especially mean unfinished
  345. pep. When do we kill this state again :x
  346. Kev Jeybe: That's a reasonable approximation of a description, yes :)
  347. Jeybe Kev: Ok, thanks
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  358. jonas’ Jeybe: sorry, I misread your message and thought you wrote "received" instead of read
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  362. Guus memberbot is online for member applications for Q1. If you read this, you might as well cast your votes now. 🙂
  363. jonas’ emus: re https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Edward_Maurer_Application_2020
  364. jonas’ you say you work in the wind power industry, yet you claim no company affiliation
  365. jonas’ I don't think that's right
  366. emus The company uses.....Skype f B. 😃🎉🎊
  367. jonas’ I'm not sure that matters
  368. emus I`m saying I apply as a private person.
  369. jonas’ my understanding is that we have limits on the share of members per company
  370. Kev Correct.
  371. emus What do expect from me?
  372. jonas’ I think you can only apply as individual in general
  373. emus Ehm, so I did?
  374. jonas’ what I'm saying is that you're still affiliated with your employer and need to say so
  375. jonas’ I *think*
  376. jonas’ that's at least how I understand the rules and how I wrote my own application
  377. Guus emus: basically, to avoid companies trying to take over the world, starting with the XSF, we'd like to make sure that the number of members do not all affiliate to the same company. Just mention the name of your company, and all is good.
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  379. Guus Bylaws have the details, if you're interested.
  380. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0345.html#mandatory > Any affiliations, as described within the final clause of the XSF Bylaws, Section 2.1. Note that this is not limited to employment, but must include it.
  381. pep. "Note that this is not limited to employment" interesting
  382. jonas’ I also disclosed my university when I was still a student
  383. jonas’ (for that reason)
  384. Ge0rG and the bylaws: > An applicant for membership may not be admitted if, at the time of application or consideration, fifteen percent (15%) of the Members of the Corporation are employed by or represent the same corporation or organization as that corporation or organization which employs the applicant or is represented by the applicant.
  385. fippo there goes the evil plan to hire a lot of contractors and take over the xsf...
  386. pep. fippo, yeah, the bylaws saw you coming!!
  387. Kev I'm sure you have backup evil plans.
  388. emus Its just saying what I do as giving some information about myself. Guys, that what I voluntarily has absolutely nothing to with where I work. I'm confused....
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  390. jonas’ > memberbot is online for member applications for Q1. If you read this, you might as well cast your votes now. 🙂 I set out to prove that I can read this message on my mobile, yet voting would be impractical. Instead, I completed the voting process, so, well played.
  391. emus Its just saying what I do as giving some information about myself. Guys, that what I voluntarily do in XMPP has absolutely nothing to with where I work. I'm confused....
  392. Ge0rG emus: humans are often influenced by their employers in more or less sublte ways, therefore it's required to tell the XSF who your employer is
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  394. jonas’ > Its just saying what I do as giving some information about myself. > Guys, that what I voluntarily has absolutely nothing to with where I work. I'm confused.... same for me. doesn't change the bylaws rules tho.
  395. Guus > I set out to prove that I can read this message on my mobile, yet voting would be impractical. Instead, I completed the voting process, so, well played. Muwhahahaa
  396. emus Im a working student...
  397. emus No, then I refuse my application.
  398. jonas’ emus: I'm not particularly fond of those rules either. But I understand that they are useful to keep the XSF independent.
  399. pep. I understand the XSF has to know about it, I still don't understand why this has to be made public
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  401. jonas’ emus: on the bright side, nothing of what you stated in your application strictly requires membership
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  403. jonas’ pep.: maybe because nobody asked for it to be private yet? sounds like a board topic to fix that.
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  405. emus I got asked to apply, because some appeciated what I did 🤷‍♂️ So I said, yes is fine
  406. Zash I think we've mentioned that it's probably doable to have only the Secretary know
  407. pep. jonas’, yeah I encouraged him, and I did completely forget this "detail". Nothing requires him to be a member indeed, it's mostly to show interest
  408. pep. jonas’, I don't think enough people care yet, so proposing this to board would be a waste of time and maybe even harmful. I'm happy to lead this if I'm proven wrong
  409. emus I can tell privately where work to someone responsible, but I would not like to put it online.
  410. jonas’ pep.: to be honest, I don't like this requirement either. It did put me off back then for a moment.
  411. pep. Note that this topic has come up every last membership vote I think
  412. jonas’ so I'd support a motion for defining a way to declare affiliations privately
  413. lskdjf > pep.: maybe because nobody asked for it to be private yet? sounds like a board topic to fix that. actually there have been multiple people asking for private information like full name and employer not to be in a public wiki anymore. So yeah if that could be brought up with board, that would be nice.
  414. jonas’ did it? I only recall the anonymity thing
  415. pep. Well this kind of mitigates the anonymity issue
  416. pep. Anonymity is not an on/off switch as you know :)
  417. jonas’ does it?
  418. Ge0rG I still think that for a public standards organizations, it's important to have public information about the members and their affiliations
  419. emus Actually I dropped, saying in which industry I work, to even more say that this has no relation 😅
  420. pep. emus, I'm sorry but that doesn't help :/
  421. Guus I'm with Ge0rG
  422. pep. I'm not
  423. lskdjf > I still think that for a public standards organizations, it's important to have public information about the members and their affiliations I think you can argue that for people that have been voted into council, board and the secretary. however, not for normal members.
  424. emus But does everyone here dropped exactly where their work or study?
  425. Ge0rG lskdjf: there is no requirement to be a member for contributing to XEPs
  426. jonas’ emus: check the applications
  427. emus > I think you can argue that for people that have been voted into council, board and the secretary. however, not for normal members. Yes, I wonder as well
  428. pep. Ge0rG, that's diverting
  429. lskdjf Ge0rG, I'm aware of that. What's your point?
  430. emus > emus: check the applications What exactly?
  431. jonas’ > lskdjf: there is no requirement to be a member for contributing to XEPs though I *do* wonder how one would submit a XEP pseudonomously
  432. Ge0rG lskdjf: membership is responsible for voting people into public positions, so I think the transparency requirements extend here
  433. jonas’ > lskdjf: there is no requirement to be a member for contributing to XEPs though I *do* wonder how one would submit a XEP pseudonymously
  434. pep. members don't have to submit XEPs either
  435. lskdjf > though I *do* wonder how one would submit a XEP pseudonomously jonas’ it's not allowed according to ... xep 001 or so
  436. jonas’ > What exactly? emus, just open them and you'll see that people disclose their employer
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  438. jonas’ it's on my user page for example
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  441. emus Will check again, but havent recognised that as a mandatory point
  442. emus also not that everyone was telling
  443. lskdjf > lskdjf: membership is responsible for voting people into public positions, so I think the transparency requirements extend here Ge0rG Legislations require a presitent of a country to make all sorts of information public. That doesn't mean that the voting directory should be online.
  444. Guus It is mandatory. Check the bylaws. If not everyone included the information, that was an omission in their application.
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  446. jonas’ reading the bylaws of the organization you're trying to join seems like a good idea either way
  447. emus Okay guys, lets making simple: I refuse. Is fine and not important any way.
  448. pep. jonas’, so yeah I can bring that to board, but it's likely to get shot down :)
  449. Ge0rG lskdjf: I'm aware of that. What's your point?
  450. emus Okay guys, lets make itsimple: I refuse. Is fine and not important any way.
  451. emus Okay guys, lets make it simple: I refuse. Is fine and not important any way.
  452. jonas’ Alex, cc, see emus message above
  453. lskdjf Ge0rG, 😛 well, I was drawing an analogy.
  454. pep. emus, sorry, and thanks :)
  455. emus > emus, sorry, and thanks :) No problem
  456. pep. Also why I think the XSF won't change as long as we don't let new people like this in.
  457. emus XMPP wondering why no one gives a shit about it.... 🤔
  458. lskdjf yeah xsf tends to be a bunch of people that "have been doing things this way forever and want it to stay that way" at times.
  459. emus deleted
  460. emus That meant to be in the wrong chat
  461. Guus wow.
  462. Guus we didn't even start to debate this.
  463. Guus but, sure. We're not open to change, apparently.
  464. Ge0rG lskdjf: I'm only part of the XSF for five years now, and I think that the current requirements for becoming a member are adequate.
  465. emus Didn`t meant to bother you procedures, but if I would have known before, I wouldnt have applied anyway
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  467. emus Didn`t meant to bother your procedures, but if I would have known before, I wouldnt have applied anyway
  468. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure that it's possible to ask Board for a change to these rules without being a member, though.
  469. pep. But it's not possible to vote
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  471. Guus emus: that's on you. We have very public records and bylaws.
  472. Guus don't blame us for not doing your homework.
  473. emus > emus: that's on you. We have very public records and bylaws. > don't blame us for not doing your homework. I don't blame and I read it of course, still missed that spot
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  477. Guus I'm going to drop out of this conversation. It is ticking a nerve, which doesn't help me being a useful participant.
  478. pep. Guus, I think that's on us. That could be made a bit more obvious. https://xmpp.org/community/membership.html this doesn't mention anything about the requirements, it just links to thing
  479. pep. (yes yes we can all PR)
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  482. Daniel Why is this suddenly coming up?
  483. Ge0rG There is obviously a trade-off between allowing people who need their private information protected, but also anonymous trolls, vs. the transparency of a public and open standards organization.
  484. Ge0rG Daniel: because it's election time
  485. emus > Why is this suddenly coming up? Because I havent named my company, as I missed that requirement, but also doesnt want to put the information online
  486. Daniel Yes. But it was never a big topic before
  487. pep. it has
  488. pep. multiple times
  489. Ge0rG Daniel: anonymous participation has been a topic before, some times.
  490. Daniel Yeah. I was more referring to the affiliations part
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  492. emus But its not anonymous anymore actually
  493. pep. This is not full anonymity towards the XSF mind
  494. emus once I put my name
  495. jonas’ muc_semianon
  496. pep. kinda
  497. Daniel Tbh I'm not really sure what affiliation means in the context of my being self employed
  498. pep. You have to disclose every single one of your clients!
  499. pep. hrhr
  500. emus 😅
  501. pep. But hmm, tbh, I think that's what "Note that this is not limited to employment" means
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  503. Daniel I'm sure that at least 50 percent of my customers aren't happy with me doing that
  504. pep. I'm sure of that :)
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  507. Kev The "not company" thing is because e.g. most OSS projects aren't company-based within XMPP.
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  509. Kev But if 30 people working for different companies, all of whom were working on Swift were to apply, the XSF should care.
  510. larma > It is mandatory. Check the bylaws. If not everyone included the information, that was an omission in their application. I think it's funny how everyone has assumptions what is in the bylaws, but nobody ever actually seems to verify them...
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  512. larma > to be eligible for membership, a person, corporation, organization, or other entity must complete a written membership application in such form as shall be adopted by the Board of Directors from time to time. The substance of such membership application must be included in a notice to the Members of the meeting at which such membership application is considered. > The Secretary shall have general charge of the membership records of the Corporation and shall keep, at the principal office of the Corporation, a record of the Members showing the name, address, telephone number, facsimile number and electronic mail address of each Member.
  513. emus > The "not company" thing is because e.g. most OSS projects aren't company-based within XMPP. > But if 30 people working for different companies, all of whom were working on Swift were to apply, the XSF should care. I intended to tell the branch where I work, but also that it has (unfortunatly) nothing to do with XMPP. But yes, till then I didnt knew about that requirement
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  515. larma Nowhere in the bylaws it says that things go public at all (beside board members). Members receive the "substance" of the application (that doesn't need to include company if that's not substantial), the membership records are with the secretary. Of course board can decide to only accept public membership applications in the wiki that include company details, but it's *not* in the bylaws, don't claim that.
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  522. MattJ I haven't read the entire discussion, but yeah, I'm in the category or "Self-employed and not going to dump a list of my clients in the wiki"
  523. MattJ I haven't read the entire discussion, but yeah, I'm in the category of "Self-employed and not going to dump a list of my clients in the wiki"
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  540. Alex We had many similar applications in the past where people were just saying that they are self employed or apply as an individual. Because he is saying that his work is not realted to XMPP at all I did not pay further attention. If this is a problem and you think it violates the bylaws (which everyone reads difefrent ;-) ) I can ask him to disclose with employer directly to me only
  541. lorddavidiii has left
  542. jonas’ Alex, emus retracted the application
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  545. Alex it is still on the Wiki, don't think we defined somewhere on how to retract an application ;-)
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  547. emus jonas’: I retraced, as understood that was mandatory. I am fine to tell Alex privately where I work, if that is within the process
  548. moparisthebest I don't think I've ever listed my employer either and no one said anything, my employer has nothing to do with xmpp or even chat
  549. emus as said
  550. emus I am.okay with other option
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  552. moparisthebest I wouldn't want to list it on the wiki either, my employer is kind of odd about "don't mention us on social media or anything that might be construed as you representing us" but I wouldn't mind telling Alex , just no one has ever asked
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  556. larma MattJ, there is no reason by the bylaws to disclose clients of a self-employed person. You'd only need to disclose to board/secretary when you are employed by or represent a company so they can apply the maximum 15% rule.
  557. ralphm The whole idea behind it is just that we want to prevent companies to be overrepresented in our membership.
  558. ralphm Right
  559. MattJ I totally get the idea behind it
  560. MattJ But from the day it was first proposed I said I didn't see how it would actually work
  561. MattJ I've never listed anything and nobody has ever complained :)
  562. pep. It doesn't seem to be applied very much anyway
  563. ralphm I don't there is a problem to solve right now. If someone finds that the 15% rule can be argued to be broken, we can go back and fix it.
  564. moparisthebest Nothing stops anyone from just lying, or simply not putting anything, apparently :)
  565. larma The assumption seems to be that everyone would be so kind to mention company info if it was relevant
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  568. pep. moparisthebest, yeah that's true of every info you give anyway :)
  569. ralphm I think self-employed is totally fine.
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  571. MattJ If I (hypothetically) did a 3-month contract for Isode (picking one well-represented company in the XSF community) in the middle of my membership period, what should happen?
  572. ralphm Lies will be caught up with, I don't see a problem.
  573. ralphm MattJ, we'd talk about it
  574. MattJ and it would be my fault if I forgot to mention it?
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  576. larma MattJ, are you representing their interest when making use of your XSF membership rights? If no, then it doesn't matter
  577. MattJ Does it specify anywhere that I have to update the XSF if my status with a company changes between applications?
  578. jonas’ if my employer enters a three month contract to build infrastructure for, say, NATO messaging, would I have to disclose that?
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  581. MattJ and how do I know which companies I need to notify the XSF about, and which I don't?
  582. MattJ Obviously I've been around a while and could guess a few, but it seems pretty arbitrary
  583. jonas’ if my employer enters a three month contract to build infrastructure for, say, NATO messaging, would I have to disclose that (assuming that I’m assigned to work on that)?
  584. MattJ If the honest answer is "it's fine, you'll know if you're (close to) breaking the rules and we trust everyone to be honest" then I'm fine with the status quo
  585. pep. Of some putting their affiliations and some not? And asking every new member to? :p
  586. moparisthebest assuming it was actually enforced, I'm not sure I see any advantage anyway, if one company wanted to hijack messaging standards they could just start their own standards organization and do it anyway, maybe call themselves Matrix or something?
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  588. ralphm MattJ: your last statement is my vantage point
  589. pep. I'm curious what you think is the status quo though
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  591. MattJ pep., you just summed it up :)
  592. pep. I don't like this
  593. pep. Why would we force it on new members while not on others
  594. MattJ We historically haven't forced it
  595. pep. Seems pretty random to me
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  597. Kev For my point of view, I think having some protection against representation/flooding is worthwhile. I'm fine with that protection not being public (although I think it's useful to default to public where people are willing). I think some guidance on what to disclose would be useful.
  598. MattJ We request it, I've never seen anyone flag an application that didn't have it
  599. ralphm The status quo is that every few days other parts of our bylaws are scrutinized to see if there's an issue. I think it would be better to focus on things when there's an actual problem in need dire need for solving.
  600. Ge0rG If we don't strictly enforce this rule, how are we supposed to prevent being hijacked?
  601. MattJ Ge0rG, it beats not having a rule and then not being able to enforce it when you need to
  602. emus > If we don't strictly enforce this rule, how are we supposed to prevent being hijacked? I mean, one could also lie... you would have to proof it anyway or?
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  604. pep. emus, what MattJ said.
  605. Ge0rG MattJ: okay, I can see that.
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  607. emus If you agree, I can tell Alex, or anyone else privately, as long that kept privately
  608. pep. I also think it's a worthwile rule to have. I'm happy to rework the implementation
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  611. Ge0rG So maybe somebody should change XEP-0345 into "affiliations can be made public, and must be communicated to the Secretary otherwise"
  612. emus (I also understand that XSF fears to get hijacked of course)
  613. pep. Ge0rG, 345 doesn't actually say this information has to be public does it?
  614. pep. ah it does
  615. pep. Only in one place, Security Considerations. It just seems to be assume in the document
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  618. pep. Only in one place, Security Considerations. It just seems to be assumed in the document
  619. Ge0rG pep.: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0345.html#mandatory
  620. larma Ge0rG, it says applicants must provide, not to whom
  621. pep. That doesn't say public. It talks about giving info to the Secretary and allowing members to vote
  622. Ge0rG > As a secondary purpose, it also allows the XSF members to make an informed decision when voting to accept applications
  623. pep. yes
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  625. Ge0rG that implies that members will see this.
  626. pep. Sure
  627. pep. That's already better than "On a public wiki"
  628. Ge0rG and §3 says it has to be in the wiki
  629. Ge0rG pep.: I'm sure you can provide a better wording as a PR :D
  630. pep. I'm working on it
  631. ralphm emus, there is no fear. This rule exists so we can take action in case a company is overrepresented based on that rule, instead of some vague notion of 'too much'.
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  634. jonas’ 15:51:07 MattJ> We request it, I've never seen anyone flag an application that didn't have it I did, today.
  635. littlesmiley has left
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  637. MattJ I didn't scroll back that far, I guess :)
  638. MattJ I'm definitely against picking on random people
  639. emus > emus, there is no fear. This rule exists so we can take action in case a company is overrepresented based on that rule, instead of some vague notion of 'too much'. Ok, I understand
  640. jonas’ I wasn’t aware I was picking on anyone in particular. I admit that I probably don’t scan applications of "famous" people like Dave as thoroughly as I do for others, though
  641. jonas’ I simply assumed it was an oversight
  642. jonas’ (and, to be frank, I also assumed that Alex would screen the applications, as he said he also keeps tab on the 15% rule at some point)
  643. larma jonas’, he can keep tab on the 15% even without getting company names 😉
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  646. larma like, we currrently have one applicant that works in a company in the wind power industry and no other member that does, so that implies his company is not overrepresented ;)
  647. ralphm Yes, until we only have 8 members, which is yet another problem.
  648. ralphm I'm happy for Alex to continue doing what he's been doing and if someone at some point feels a company is overrepresented we can look into it.
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  651. Alex as @ralphm said. The ruile is there to take action if we thing a componany is overpresented or someone is raising concerns with that. I am not compiling and verifiying the stats after every election.
  652. larma ralphm, +1 - as long as we make sure that applicants that obviously are not overrepresenting a company don't feel any repression to apply I see no issue. It just feels very absurd to not accept an active community member like emus purely based on the fact that we don't know the company even if we do know that it is not overrepresented.
  653. pep. Where is a good venue that's not standards because it's about the membership, but also not members@ because that's not opened to non-members (right?)
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  659. Zash Organizational meta-discussions?
  660. Alex @emus exposed his employer to me. So I have it in my records
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  663. pep. Zash, I'd like a place where interested people can also join the discussion. A place where they can say things like "yeah if you do that I'd be interested to join"
  664. emus > @emus exposed his employer to me. So I have it in my records Ok, and if someone really really needs to know, I can tell him or her as well
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  688. vanitasvitae never disclosed their job either :P
  689. vanitasvitae Am I even real? 😱
  690. Zash Are birds real?
  691. pep. I only see pixels
  692. jonas’ I see fragged people
  693. Ge0rG I don't even see the pixels. All I see is blonde, brunette, redhead.
  694. jonas’ damn, that was the better reference
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  696. jonas’ just proves that it’s been too long since I saw The Matrix
  697. Ge0rG marc: I've initiated a standards@ thread on the 0401 change, but there was less activity than I anticipated. How can we move it forward now?
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  703. jonas’ "just do it"
  704. Ge0rG said the person who just did it.
  705. jonas’ ahem.
  706. jonas’ switching hats all the time sure does get confusing
  707. Ge0rG * jonas’ puts on his wizard hat and robe.
  708. jonas’ that’s only on friday nights.
  709. jonas’ and also not a wizard, actually
  710. Ge0rG a lizard, then?
  711. vanitasvitae Level 7 Valor Bard
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  717. emus > vantiasvitae never disclosed their job either :P Omg... tbh I read a few application but also yours to get some inspiration... 🐵
  718. emus > vantiasvitae never disclosed their job either :P Omg... tbh I read a few applications but also yours to get some inspiration... 🐵
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  721. Zash > The namespace governing this protocol is "http://jabber.org/protocol/commands" (hereafter referred to as x-commands). What the x-?
  722. jonas’ legacy, probably
  723. Zash Hm, can't well-known commands take the dataform in the first step?
  724. eevvoor has joined
  725. vanitasvitae > Omg... tbh I read a few applications but also yours to get some inspiration... 🐵 Don't blame me for this now :P
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  728. marc Ge0rG: what are our options?
  729. mukt2 has joined
  730. emus > Don't blame me for this now :P Everything is your fault!!!1! 😉
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  733. Ge0rG marc: you read https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-January/036848.html and the reply and decide whether you want to accept the change or not
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  736. jonas’ does anyone know how a Last Call email for a Procedural XEP should look like?
  737. jonas’ otherwise I’m going to cook something up
  738. jonas’ (the old tooling did not support this case, neither does the new)
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  740. marc Looks like shit on mobile, I'll read it later
  741. Ge0rG marc: yeah :/
  742. jonas’ bahaha
  743. jonas’ man, I should step back from writing emails for today
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  746. Zash Oof, my inbox
  747. jonas’ > URL: http://localhost:8080/extensions/xep-0429.html
  748. jonas’ spot the error ;)
  749. Ge0rG ouch ;)
  750. Zash Hah
  751. Zash jonas’, wait what, vcard4 isn't PEP-backed already?
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  756. jonas’ Zash, I checked it, and it didn’t look as if it was
  757. jonas’ <iq from='samizzi@cisco.com/foo' id='bx81v356' to='stpeter@jabber.org' type='get'> <vcard xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:vcard-4.0'/> </iq>
  758. jonas’ ``` <iq from='samizzi@cisco.com/foo' id='bx81v356' to='stpeter@jabber.org' type='get'> <vcard xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:vcard-4.0'/> </iq> ```
  759. jonas’ that’s not PEP to me
  760. jonas’ it optionally uses PEP events for update notifications
  761. Zash It was PEP-only before, then that was added so that it would work in MUC ... IIRC
  762. jonas’ but it isn’t strictly a PEP node
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  767. Zash mod_vcard4 in Prosody is just a thin layer over the corresponding PEP node.
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  771. Zash and mod_vcard_legacy which implements 0398 is also a (not so thin) layer over a bunch of PEP nodes
  772. Zash And as I'm trying to figure out how to write, it does respect the individual permission settings of those nodes.
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  774. jonas’ you may want to add that to the thread then.
  775. jonas’ because that’s not what the spec says currently ;)
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  779. jonas’ (and I generally prefer your behaviour)
  780. jonas’ (and I generally prefer your implementation’s behaviour)
  781. Zash That reply is exactly what I'm trying to compose
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  783. jonas’ :)
  784. Zash I especially enjoy being able to set (or, keep?) the full vcard to access=presence while having the avatar nodes public, which makes it spit out a vcard-temp with only the avatar
  785. jonas’ yeah, that’s the kind of stuff I was thinking about
  786. emus has left
  787. Zash There's a thread on 0292 somewhere btw
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  789. Zash That simpler iq syntax doesn't actually help with the MUC thing, since that's afaik an explicit exception for vcard-temp, so you could just as well do the same for a PEP / PubSub query as for a vcard4 iq-get
  790. jonas’ sounds to me as if The Editor™ should re-issue the (expired) LC for '292
  791. marc Ge0rG, I agree with Daniel and I would prefer to use SASL2 even though I'm not familar with SASL2 at all atm
  792. Ge0rG marc: SASL2 was introduced in March 2017, and then... nothing happened
  793. Daniel With me?
  794. Daniel Thank you.
  795. Daniel On what?
  796. Ge0rG Daniel: re XEP-0401
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  799. Ge0rG marc: my reasons to change 0401 were not to make it perfect but to make it easy to integrate today
  800. marc Ge0rG, I know but "we" have lots of problem today because "we" did ugly hacks in the past, no?
  801. marc +s
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  803. Zash It's a hack but there's an Actual Product that uses it, so there's that
  804. Ge0rG marc: yes, but this is a minor hack on top of an existing hack
  805. marc I used data forms in the first place because i though it's the best solution
  806. marc now it seems SASL2 is the "best" solution
  807. Zash SASL2 for the future! :)
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  811. marc Ge0rG, you argued about complexity during 401 spec development, a hacky solution now and SASL2 later would introduce a shitload of additional and unnecessary complexity on the client and server
  812. Zash too late
  813. marc tbh, I don't know how far away we are from SASL2 :)
  814. marc Zash, hm?
  815. Ge0rG marc: not so much, because SASL2 will be a nice and clean solution to many problems, including token authentication
  816. Zash marc: I mean there are implementations already (of 0401 etc)
  817. marc Ge0rG, yep, but you need backwards compability
  818. marc -s
  819. Ge0rG marc: yes, but you'll also need backward compat between SASL2 and IBR, between SASL2 and normal login, etc
  820. marc Zash, yep, a spec cannot step people from implementing something else ;)
  821. marc Ge0rG, token if SASL2, no token otherwise? :)
  822. Zash I do have some SASL2 code stewing fwiw
  823. Ge0rG marc: no - token via SALS2 or token via IQ if no SASL22
  824. Zash Need ... a client to test with
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  826. Ge0rG Zash: I'd offer help, but... yaxim is not doing SASL directly and instead using Smack, and the current Smack development tree won't work with yaxim
  827. Zash :(
  828. marc Zash, SASL2 code for prosody?
  829. Zash Yes
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  831. marc Daniel, how much effort is it to implement SASL2 in Conversations?
  832. Zash IIRC the two things I got stuck on was 1) client or something to test with and 2) internal architecture to make it easy to do the things that SASL2 allows
  833. marc Ge0rG, 401 is not important enough for ugly hacks IMO
  834. Daniel marc: I don't know a lot about sasl 2 to say. Probably not a lot
  835. Ge0rG marc: if it's not important, you can accept the ugly hack
  836. marc 432 sounds like a joke from fefe's blog ^^
  837. Zash I'd imagine SASL2 itself to be easy to implement, but as I said, it might take architectural changes to do fancy parallell things
  838. Ge0rG marc: however, I'm convinced that we need easy user onboarding and that 0401 is an important step in that direction
  839. marc Zash, can you give me the link to your SASL2 branch?
  840. Ge0rG marc: ask MattJ about the experience with 0401 at last FOSDEM
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  842. marc Ge0rG, I already had a working implementation with ejabberd and Conversations, I know that it is nice
  843. marc But I don't want to pollute the protocol with more ugly hacks
  844. jonas’ Zash, I could probably look into implementing SASL2 in aioxmpp if you hand me a server to test with
  845. Ge0rG marc: you had an implementation of 0401 before my change?
  846. marc jonas’, +1
  847. marc Ge0rG, yes?
  848. Ge0rG marc: you need to be more public about your achievements.
  849. marc Ge0rG, IIRC I posted a screencast ;)
  850. Ge0rG marc: ...to where?
  851. marc Ge0rG, even a Gajim implementation!!1!
  852. marc here or in the Conversations group chat
  853. Ge0rG marc: that's not adequate.
  854. Ge0rG People are not reading chat-logs
  855. marc Ge0rG, I'm pretty sure you read it Ôo
  856. Ge0rG Also I'm Very Sad Now, because I changed the spec and got the changed spec implemented in yaxim, prosody and I've heard about it being part of recent Conversations
  857. Ge0rG marc: maybe I'm just getting old
  858. marc Ge0rG, If not I'm very sorry
  859. Ge0rG marc: what's the URL?
  860. Ge0rG Maybe I'll remember when I see it?
  861. Ge0rG Or maybe I should just go offline and become a potato farmer
  862. jonas’ s/potato/tomato/ #louiz
  863. marc It's not online anymore because I reinstalled my infrastructure but let me see if I can find it
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  865. Ge0rG either way, I was totally unaware of all of that when I made https://yaxim.org/blog/2020/01/31/yaxim-0-dot-9-9-fosdem-edition/
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  869. marc Ge0rG, found it
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  873. marc Ge0rG, https://blog.zapb.de/assets/xmpp-invite.webm
  874. marc Ge0rG, 1142496 Nov 16 2017 xmpp-invite.webm
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  878. Ge0rG marc: okay, I've seen that video back in 2017. Where's the code?
  879. marc Ge0rG, somewhere on my notebook / server
  880. Ge0rG marc: so it never got published?
  881. marc ejabberd implementation got stuck because of an xml element with the same synatx whatever but two different meanings
  882. mukt2 has left
  883. marc this was not possible in ejabberd I was told by zinid
  884. Ge0rG hmh?
  885. marc Ge0rG, I don't remember the details but some element used in 401 and PARS had the same name but different meaning
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  887. Ge0rG the token element?
  888. marc and this couldn't be implemented in ejabberd
  889. marc maybe, yes
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  893. Ge0rG marc: did you submit anything to Conversations or Gajim?
  894. Ge0rG ..or even tell the developers?
  895. Ge0rG Sorry, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just sad.
  896. mukt2 has joined
  897. marc Daniel was aware of it
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  900. marc The Gajim dudes I don't know
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  903. marc Ge0rG, sorry
  904. marc Zash, what about your SASL2 code?
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  913. Zash Food takes priority
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  931. Zash marc, jonas’: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_sasl2.html
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  935. marc Zash, wow, not very complex
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  937. Zash SASL itself isn't that complicated
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  940. Zash And the logic is mostly handled elsewhere by the same stuff that handles SASL1
  941. Zash That code is just mapping it to the new wire protocol
  942. Zash And notably doesn't do any of the fancy stuff SASL2 is meant to allow
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  952. Zash jonas’, sent that vcard compat reply. I hope I finished it.
  953. marc Like tasks?
  954. jonas’ Zash, I know that feel
  955. jonas’ Zash, does vcard4 not contain an avatar?
  956. Zash It can, but why would we when we have '84?
  957. Zash Or what do you mean?
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  959. Zash Avatars are separated out and not included stored in the vcard4 PEP node by the Prosody module.
  960. Zash minus one word
  961. Zash the post-food slowness
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  963. jonas’ Zash, so when a client wants the "full" vcard4, it has to query vcard4 + avatar?
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  965. jonas’ Zash, so when a client wants the "full" vcard4, it has to query vcard4 + avatar, separately?
  966. Zash So?
  967. Zash Yes.
  968. jonas’ just for my understanding
  969. Zash You probably had the avatar already to show in the contact list or somesuch.
  970. jonas’ Zash, I was asking from a permission perspective mainly
  971. jonas’ i.e. whether the granularity is consistent between vcard4 and vcard-temp
  972. marc Ge0rG, Zash: how is sasl2 and ibr related? do we always have an authentication (anonymous?) step and then ibr?
  973. Zash jonas’, It should be consistent, yes.
  974. Zash marc, they would be related somehow in some way such that everything is nicer
  975. marc lol
  976. Zash Oh there's https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0389.html too
  977. Zash Wait have we been talking about SASL2 when we should have been talking about IBR2?
  978. Zash Such confuse
  979. marc hm?
  980. Zash IBR2 is what you want for 0401
  981. Zash I think?
  982. marc Probably, who came up with SASL2?
  983. Zash Dunno, was it me or Ge0rG ?
  984. Zash Early connection something 2 that reduces the hackyness of 0401
  985. Nekit has joined
  986. Ge0rG Maybe it was Daniel?
  987. Ge0rG XMPP 2!
  988. marc No bullshit please
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  991. Zash SASL2, IBR2, Routing2, ... MAM2
  992. Zash marc, so, IBR2 is for improved registration flows (ask for random profile details, invite tokens, CAPTCHA etc) and SASL2 is for improved login flow (2FA, required password change, stuff) and reducing roundtrips (auth + bind or 198 resumption in one step)
  993. marc Zash, yep, that's what I thought
  994. marc Zash, is there a IBR2 XEPs?
  995. marc -s
  996. eevvoor has joined
  997. Zash Linked to it above, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0389.html
  998. marc I see
  999. marc But atm I don't see the advantage over regular IBR
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  1004. vanitasvitae Suprise Blog Post! https://blog.jabberhead.tk/2020/02/25/how-to-implement-a-xep-for-smack/
  1005. vanitasvitae Fallback Indication was a defenseless victim MWAHAHAHA!!!
  1006. emus I read in the Application Wiki again. And I saw the list there and got reminded that I read that point about the company of course for the application, but didn't felt related to it. So I didn't actually thought about nameing it (and of course for privacy reasons). Further, I thought it would be mandatory only if you work in a company that has any interest or relation to XMPP topics. So, maybe that should be cleared out in the future, that, where ever you work as individual (StarBucks or Microsoft) you have to put it to the application.
  1007. emus > Suprise Blog Post! > https://blog.jabberhead.tk/2020/02/25/how-to-implement-a-xep-for-smack/ Can you drop it to the march newsletter:
  1008. emus ?
  1009. pep. ugh I hadn't realized Fallback Indication had been accepted..
  1010. pep. vanitasvitae, I know it's "just an example" but this is a bad use of 428, considering there's already EME (0380) :/
  1011. pep. And we all know people just look at examples
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  1013. vanitasvitae yeah thats true
  1014. vanitasvitae actually that example made me think that the XEP itself is useless 😀
  1015. vanitasvitae But I can imagine some use case for it server side.
  1016. jonas’ vanitasvitae, neat blog post
  1017. vanitasvitae thanks 😉
  1018. pep. Yeah I also like the blog post otherwise :)
  1019. pep. Maybe add some kind of syntax highlighting? If it's not too much a hassle
  1020. vanitasvitae My WP theme doesn't support it unfortunately 🙁
  1021. vanitasvitae Maybe there is a plugin for that..
  1022. pep. k
  1023. jonas’ I bet there is. and I wouldn’t be surprised if it came with a free remote shell!
  1024. vanitasvitae exactly 😛
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  1027. marc Ge0rG, did you explain the disadvantage(s) of IBR dataforms somewhere?
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  1029. jonas’ no need to, it contains XEP-0004
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  1032. Zash jonas’, did you explain the disadvantage(s) of XEP-0004 somewhere? :P
  1033. jonas’ from a different docmuent, but I think it also applies to IBR: > Sturctured data, beyond lists of text and JIDs, can not be represented with Data Forms (XEP-0004) [9] at all. Machine-readable data would also have to be human-readable at the same time to provide a fallback view for human users. Interationalization of such human-readable data in field values is not possible with Data Forms (XEP-0004) [9].
  1034. jonas’ Zash, as a matter of fact, I did, in a recent ProtoXEP
  1035. Ge0rG marc: yes, but I don't remember where. Might have been on list on the initial 0401 submission
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  1037. marc Ge0rG, hm, okay
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  1039. Ge0rG My biggest issue was that a client now has to check whether a data form is fully equivalent to plain IBR plus the token
  1040. Ge0rG And then display the regular IBR dialog instead of a full data form dialog
  1041. Ge0rG For which I don't have support anyway
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  1043. Ge0rG I'm lost now. https://www.google.com/search?hl=de&q=site%3Amail.jabber.org+%22XEP-0401%22&oq=site%3Amail.jabber.org+%22XEP-0401%22&aqs=heirloom-srp..
  1044. jonas’ weiird
  1045. jonas’ from searching for "council", I get the impression that google doesn’t have anything newer than 2017 in its indices
  1046. jonas’ ah, 2019-march, too
  1047. vanitasvitae > Maybe add some kind of syntax highlighting? Done 😉
  1048. pep. woo :)
  1049. pep. Now it's even more obvious for people to just copy the code!!
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  1058. pep. Alex, https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/1
  1059. pep. An idea of why memberbot is so slow btw? Or is it my server again being too far?
  1060. jonas’ it introduces an intentional delay I think to make it feel more realistic?
  1061. pep. hah
  1062. pep. It's even setting "composing"
  1063. jonas’ it also sends typing notifications in case you haven’t ... yeah :)
  1064. jonas’ I quite like that actually
  1065. pep. Not too uncanny yet, we're good
  1066. Ge0rG Say what? It's adding latency to feel more human like?
  1067. Ge0rG I haven't tested yet but I hate it already...
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  1069. Zash Should fix the thing where messages end up before the responses due to sorting by timestamps with insufficient precision :)
  1070. pep. Real life hacks(tm)
  1071. pep. btw ad-hoc voting is not enabled on memberbot?
  1072. pep. Ah, fulljid.
  1073. Zash woot
  1074. Ge0rG Zash: that should only be an issue if the bot adds timestamp to everything
  1075. pep. returns empty nonetheless..
  1076. pep. But I see code for it
  1077. Ge0rG So it will artificially delay its responses to be more human like, but it won't accept a "Yes" for a yes?
  1078. Ge0rG And yes, I hate it indeed
  1079. vanitasvitae > but it won't accept a "Yes" for a yes? This is especially annoying if you are on mobile
  1080. pep. Well I just fixed it. Let's awit for Alex to merge it :)
  1081. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: Yes
  1082. vanitasvitae Ge0rG, what?
  1083. Zash Revive https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/buttons.html ?
  1084. pep. Well I just fixed it. Let's wait for Alex to merge it :)
  1085. vanitasvitae You mean yes?
  1086. Ge0rG Speaking of mobile, the wiki is also unreadable
  1087. Zash Yaks, unshaven yaks everywere1
  1088. Zash !
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