XSF Discussion - 2020-03-02

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00:31:49 Link Mauve larma, at some point I wanted to go through all deferred XEPs and move them either to obsolete or to experimental, but Council couldn’t agree to a process.
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06:51:06 jonas’ Link Mauve: The process is there, and AFAIK all it needs is someone to drive it (does not need to be in council)
06:51:27 jonas’ all you need is to agree to shepherd all the XEPs you propose
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06:52:41 jonas’ nobody stops you from doing that
06:54:01 jonas’ (actually we're already LC and CFE-ing a bunch of XEPs at the moment, so *right now* I'm going to say "wait until we're done with the shortlist")
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08:42:02 flow larma> How do people feel about enabling the Deferred check box by default on https://xmpp.org/extensions/ +1
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08:55:47 Kev +1
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10:50:21 Link Mauve +1
10:50:28 Link Mauve jonas’, yeah indeed.
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11:29:34 larma Why is there no registry for ad hoc command nodes?
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11:33:29 larma And they are also not namespaced, so doesn't that imply that node names are opaque strings?
11:33:53 larma XEPs relying on ad hoc command nodes having a specified name are therefor kinda broken by design
11:35:18 jonas’ larma, there is a XEP which defines a bunch of ad-hoc commands with specific names
11:35:53 larma 133 does, but it is only best practice
11:36:03 larma so they are not well defined, just a suggestion
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11:36:56 jonas’ it’s informational track, which is good enough
11:37:03 jonas’ it doesn’t define wire protocol, just usage of an existing protocol
11:37:15 larma yeah, I guess that's fine for 133
11:37:29 jonas’ and they’re namespaced, just in a weird way (with URL#suffix instead of the more well-defined {URI}suffix)
11:37:40 jonas’ but yeah, in the Ad-Hoc XEP itself they’re opaque
11:37:56 jonas’ also kind of the point of ad-hoc commands to be, well, ad-hoc
11:38:00 larma but there are others in experimental that define commands with a given name
11:38:13 jonas’ a registry would probably be good, but you know the state of the registries
11:38:32 larma like 401
11:40:17 Ge0rG 401 is using URL#suffix as well
11:40:29 larma yeah well my point is that any XEP using them would kind of risk name clashes with other names. As according to 50 it is not supposed to be a well defined name and be completely opaque (basically only used as an ID in response to the command list)
11:40:53 larma according to xep 50 it would be perfectly fine to use UUIDs instead of names
11:41:12 Ge0rG or unicode emoji...
11:41:59 larma yeah, therefor the fact that you are using URL#suffix is worth nothing, because it is opaque and thus I could use the same name just as a selection of random chars
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11:42:31 larma a perfectly valid server implementation could generate random node names on every server restart
11:42:39 jonas’ it could, but then it would also be useless
11:42:46 larma why?
11:43:11 larma according to the spec, you are requesting the list of commands first and the node name is not even supposed to be displayed to users
11:43:13 jonas’ because automated entities will not be able to interact with the commands
11:44:02 Ge0rG yaxim will rely on 0401 having that exact node name for invitation generation to work
11:45:59 larma jonas’, automated entities can still automate with other entities. If they don't want to rely on the command listing before they would kind of have to agree on a set of commands out of band before
11:46:12 jonas’ like in XEP-0133?
11:46:25 larma it's just a suggestion
11:46:35 larma and frankly I believe nobody relies on it client side
11:46:53 larma you can just do command listing before displaying administration commands
11:47:18 larma And the randomly-picking-new-name-server would still work perfectly fine with everyone doing that
11:47:36 jonas’ a lot of things would work perfectly fine for some use-cases
11:47:42 jonas’ that’s a pointless statement to make
11:47:51 jonas’ you can ignore a lot of SHOULDs before you run into troubles
11:48:02 larma My point is, I read XEP-0050 as it was considered to happen that way
11:48:21 jonas’ xep-0050 maybe, but xep-0401 most definitely not
11:48:42 jonas’ pubsub node names are also opaque
11:48:51 jonas’ but people would start to complain if you put OMEMO keys in a randomly named node
11:48:56 larma then again my point is that xep-0401 is abusing another xep out of it's intended usecases
11:49:18 jonas’ (or avatars for that matter)
11:49:21 jonas’ same situation really
11:50:51 larma So issue with use of 0050 is fine because we already have issues with use of 0060?
11:51:08 jonas’ no, because it’s not an issue
11:51:33 jonas’ if one specification tells clients to not assign any meaning to a value and another specification inherits on that and says "oh, in this case, you can assume that the thing you want has name X", then that’s perfectly valid
11:51:33 Ge0rG a new abuse case by 0401?
11:51:52 jonas’ that’s the whole point of not assigning any meaning to a string in the base spec
11:52:21 larma if it doesn't have any meaning in the base spec, how can another spec imply any meaning in it?
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11:52:34 jonas’ easy. you write it in the text.
11:52:35 larma https://xmpp.org/registrar/nodes.html < pubsub nodes are supposed to be registered at least
11:52:52 jonas’ that’s working well: Last Updated: 2004-10-11
11:53:08 jonas’ and yes, ad-hoc should also have a registry, I’m agreeing on that one
11:55:02 larma well the only node that is errornously not registered is 0084 user avatar
11:55:22 jonas’ and all the nodes from '133
11:55:35 jonas’ ah, you’re with PubSub, not with Ad-Hoc, sorry
11:55:41 jonas’ but don’t they share the same namespace?
11:56:46 larma what?
11:56:57 jonas’ ad-hoc and pubsub and disco
11:57:19 larma what do you mean by sharing namespace
11:57:32 Zash They all use nodes
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11:57:35 jonas’ ^
11:57:44 larma ad hoc node names are not the same as service disco node names
11:57:50 jonas’ sharing the namespace: undefined things happen if you have two things with the same name
11:57:51 Zash From XEP-0030
11:57:56 jonas’ larma, good then
11:57:59 jonas’ we just need a separate registry
11:58:10 jonas’ and a document like the FORM_TYPE thing which defines that it shall henceforth be usedy
11:58:12 jonas’ and a document like the FORM_TYPE thing which defines that it shall henceforth be used
11:59:18 larma that would work, so who is going to file the PR against 0050?
12:00:07 larma (btw, this stems from flows suggestion to use ad hoc commands on the mailing list)
12:00:18 jonas’ haven’t read up on today’s stuff yet
12:00:33 jonas’ larma, the more interesting question is: who is going to fix the registries?
12:00:45 jonas’ there’s zero point in adding a registry if we lack the tooling to maintain it
12:01:19 larma what do you mean with tooling? it's not like we advance tons of XEPs to Draft such that we really need tooling around it
12:01:32 jonas’ larma, there is no way to get changes to the registries on the website at the moment
12:01:43 jonas’ and by no way, I mean that you’d have to have iteam manually upload html files, which is Not Gonna Happen
12:01:49 larma ok, that's bad indeed
12:01:51 jonas’ yeah.
12:03:24 larma best case, the XMPP Registrar Considerations sections in XEPs would be machine readable and we would automatically generate the registry list from XEPs (plus additional predefined things where needed).
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12:03:49 jonas’ that’s already mostly machine readable (with soem heuristics)
12:04:03 jonas’ but it wouldn’t catch cases like '84 which simply miss a submission to a registry
12:04:10 jonas’ so we’d also need tooling to detect such cases
12:04:20 jonas’ but that’s a completly different construction site
12:04:44 jonas’ the main issue is that we can’t get the existing registries updated (they have a repository, I think xsf/registrar or so, but as mentionied earlier, no way to bring stuff to the website from there)
12:04:52 larma really? We use humans to verify the XEPs anyway because they advance to draft
12:05:38 jonas’ even if the "tooling" is a ToDo list
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12:05:44 jonas’ because nobody is going to remember that there’s a registry for '30 nodes
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12:05:51 jonas’ or '50 nodes
12:06:07 jonas’ it needs to be written down somewhere and people need to be aware that it exists and need to use it
12:06:14 jonas’ even better if it’s in code
12:06:16 larma I am certain there is a way to update the website, we just need to poke the right people so that that part can be automated
12:06:22 jonas’ larma, guess what
12:06:26 jonas’ I’ve been doing that for the past six months
12:06:41 jonas’ since one of my PRs got rejected with "that should be in a registry"
12:07:01 larma so, who is responsible then? board?
12:07:12 jonas’ does it matter?
12:07:20 jonas’ iteam doesn’t have the resources to do something about it
12:07:45 jonas’ I haven’t brought it up with board officially, but I don’t think that’d be much use either
12:08:29 jonas’ though maybe we should get board to pay MattJ to bring our infrastructure up-to-date
12:08:33 jonas’ I heard we have some funds over
12:08:52 vanitasvitae Kev, as an author, could you comment on https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-February/037092.html ? 🙂
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12:10:35 larma jonas’, I am a bit confused here: we do have an iteam, but they are not able to duplicate the automation that is already in place for xeps to the registry?
12:10:59 jonas’ larma, yes, because something changed at docker hub
12:11:10 jonas’ it would now require to grant docker hub privileges we don’t want to grant them
12:11:16 jonas’ we can’t add another repository
12:11:26 jonas’ so we have to use a different way to build the docker image with the static files
12:11:58 larma so how about we put the registry in the xeps repo as they will be updated only at the same times anyway?
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12:12:05 larma 😀
12:12:24 jonas’ doesn’t help, we still need to set up a another repository on the docker hub side of things
12:12:35 jonas’ (and connect that repository to github, which is the crucial step)
12:12:47 jonas’ and even then, I’d not at all be happy with this "solution"
12:13:55 larma I don't use docker (for good reasons apparently) so I can hardly help there
12:14:04 jonas’ docker hub and docker are only tangentially related
12:14:20 larma but they are
12:14:22 jonas’ as much as I don’t like the container hype, that’s got nothing to do with it
12:14:34 jonas’ docker hub is simply a crap CI infrastructure.
12:14:38 jonas’ the web UI is also crap
12:14:52 jonas’ (and who knows, the change may also be on the github permission model side of things, I don’t know)
12:14:59 larma and it happens to be the main/default repo for docker
12:15:11 jonas’ sure
12:15:23 jonas’ the image hosting is fine
12:15:27 jonas’ just the automated building in *their* cloud is crappy
12:16:01 jonas’ (I have no idea how they pay for the insane amounts of bandwidth this thing must eat either way)
12:31:04 pep. "jonas’> but it wouldn’t catch cases like '84 which simply miss a submission to a registry", while it's still not perfect, isn't protoxep -> experimental (and other subsequent state change) supposed to help a bit(?)
12:31:14 pep. Ah larma suggested that already
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12:32:49 pep. "jonas’> though maybe we should get board to pay MattJ to bring our infrastructure up-to-date" I'd be happy to do this, if he agrees. Or to find someone else
12:34:19 jonas’ pep., '84 was changed in Draft, wasn’t it?
12:34:32 jonas’ no wait, I’m confused
12:34:37 jonas’ but '48 would be just the same actually.
12:35:26 pep. yes human error is always a factor. It's never too late to fix it :) (once we get the registry back)
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13:47:35 Kev pep.: I *think* that paying MattJ would be potentially problematic because of renumeration and Board (I'd have to remind myself of our bylaws).
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14:06:59 jonas’ Kev: what if membership votes on that instead of just board?
14:07:28 Kev Someone would need to check the rules about Board members receiving remuneration whichever way it comes about, I think.
14:08:17 Kev Section 4.3 Compensation. Directors shall not receive any compensation for acting as such, but Directors shall be entitled to reasonable compensation for services rendered as an employee of the Corporation. The Corporation shall be entitled to purchase officers’ and directors’ liability insurance without violating these Bylaws.
14:08:34 Kev There we go then.
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14:34:37 pep. Kev: I was thinking about this indeed
14:34:48 pep. I'm happy if it's somebody else then
14:36:32 Ge0rG I'd also like to see iteam gain more resources, and if paying MattJ will give that, I'm all in
14:37:03 Kev A couple of years ago we had an almost-offer of sponsorship in exchange for people helping the iteam with various tasks, but sadly it didn't come to anything.
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15:24:21 MattJ Just to be clear, is the quoted text from the bylaws saying it would be ok, or not ok?
15:24:34 MattJ I read it as "ok"
15:25:33 jonas’ me too
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15:26:28 pep. Yeah, you can't be paid because you,re a director but you can if you actually work in/for the organization
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15:29:40 pep. I'd like to have a clue about finances before though
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16:15:53 Kev I read it as the XSF is able to employ a Director in order to pay them for work they wouldn't do as a Director.
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16:19:04 jonas’ yupp
16:19:11 jonas’ iteam isn’t director’s work, is it?
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17:09:53 moparisthebest if it is, many a director is shirking their responsibility :D
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