XSF Discussion - 2020-03-03

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  159. marc0s jonas’, thanks for the lengthy and detailed response about Reminders. I really appreciate it
  160. jonas’ you’re welcome
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  216. Link Mauve So, since I’m now doing an internship, I probably should change my member status.
  217. Link Mauve How can I do that?
  218. Link Mauve Also hi, I’m adding XEP-0284 support to Inkscape. o/
  219. jonas’ Link Mauve, member status?
  220. Link Mauve jonas’, the employer thing.
  221. jonas’ I just edit my wiki page
  222. Link Mauve I don’t have one yet. :-°
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  225. flow Link Mauve, yeah, xep284 is one of my all time favorites (along with the gobby protocol)
  226. Link Mauve What are the differences between them?
  227. flow you may want to compare those two from a protocl perspective, although the gobby one isn't that well documented IIRC
  228. Link Mauve Also with other protocols such as Etherpad’s or CryptPad’s?
  229. flow I have no idea which one is better. But it could be worth putting some research effort into a survey of the existing protocols for collaborative xml editing
  230. Link Mauve Yeah.
  231. Link Mauve And then merge all of the improvements into XEP-0284. :p
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  249. jonas’ stay away from etherpad
  250. jonas’ it uses the broken JavaScript unicode model
  251. jonas’ with UTF-16 everywhere.
  252. moparisthebest if you have to stay away from broken javascript that's like 99% of the web
  253. moparisthebest though now that you mention it, sounds kind of nice...
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  255. Ge0rG I've heard there are still parts of the web that you can surf with noscript.
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  257. jonas’ s.j.n for example
  258. jonas’ though you won’t get the fancy charts
  259. Link Mauve jonas’, I’m using XMPP, so UTF-8 everywhere.
  260. jonas’ Link Mauve, the etherpad protocol data model assumes UTF-16
  261. jonas’ so stay away from that
  262. Link Mauve Ok.
  263. Ge0rG nothing is wrong with UTF-16. It's only when you treat it as UCS-2 when things start going wrong.
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  300. moparisthebest is https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html a pretty complete list still? does anyone know of widely deployed public servers not on this list?
  301. Link Mauve In the XEP schema, <dl/> is specified as only taking a list of <di/>, each containing a <dt/> and a <dd/>.
  302. Link Mauve The <di/> is not specified in XHTML AFAIK, why is it present here?
  303. Zash XEP ≠ XHTML tho
  304. Link Mauve But the XSLT transfers the <di/> to the generated HTML5.
  305. Link Mauve As is.
  306. Zash That sounds like a bug
  307. Link Mauve Indeed.
  308. Link Mauve I’ll use it in the meantime, but I’ll keep it in mind.
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  311. moparisthebest other than prosody, XMPP servers seem very bad about having a place to report security problems...
  312. moparisthebest ejabberd and tigase just link to github issues, openfire links to a forum and public issue tracker
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  314. jonas’ Link Mauve, feel free to file an issue and/or patch
  315. moparisthebest isode, iot broker, astrachat nothing at all
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  317. moparisthebest apache vysper joins prosody in having a very visible defined way to report security issues
  318. Link Mauve jonas’, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/900
  319. Link Mauve moparisthebest, maybe report them the issue?
  320. moparisthebest and the rest have a developer email/jid if you dig deep enough, which isn't *terrible*
  321. jonas’ Link Mauve, looks good, I’ll add it to the queue for tonight
  322. moparisthebest Link Mauve, right, how :D
  323. Link Mauve moparisthebest, using a normal issue I guess? ^^'
  324. jonas’ moparisthebest, you could use a normal issue to report the problem that there’s no security contact.
  325. jonas’ though github issues nowadays also have a way to be hidden for security reasons, IIRC
  326. Link Mauve Oh, do they?
  327. moparisthebest And the 3 servers that have no way to contact anyone at all?
  328. moparisthebest Email sales?
  329. jonas’ fulldisclosure@seclists.org
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  339. moparisthebest I don't think I care that much, if they don't, why should I
  340. moparisthebest I'll just post it on a blog or something and if they are vulnerable to a 0 day maybe they'll create a security email :)
  341. Kev Isode provides snail mail, phone, fax and email (through web form) contact details on the website, and customers obviously have a support system to submit things through. So I think 'nothing at all' in terms of ability to get in contact is pushing it a little bit.
  342. moparisthebest and no place to report specifically security issues, I guess a web form might go to someone who could handle them, it's not obvious though
  343. Kev Any (provided) contact mechanism would ultimately end up at someone who could handle the query.
  344. Kev Or i fyou think you've found a vulnerability in M-Link, feel free to just bypass that and email me.
  345. Kev Or if you think you've found a vulnerability in M-Link, feel free to just bypass that and email me.
  346. moparisthebest in this case it's more of a general bug that may affect multiple servers, but just in general having a dedicated security problem reporting method is ideal
  347. Kev It's not clear to me that it would be any more useful than the generic contact details, TBH.
  348. Kev I can see how for an OSS project where the contact details are "Open a public ticket viewable by the world" it would be.
  349. jonas’ Kev, in 90% of the companies, the generic contact form will end up at a clueless person who deflects your request or it takes ages to proceed
  350. jonas’ having a proper security contact is superior to that
  351. moparisthebest https://www.apache.org/security/ this is considered a good way to handle it
  352. Kev jonas’: I don't believe that to be true at Isode.
  353. Kev In fact, I believe we have precisely 0 clueless people on staff.
  354. moparisthebest https://www.astrachat.com/Contact.aspx for example only has sales emails
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  357. jonas’ Kev, but as a security researcher, you can’t know in advance
  358. moparisthebest https://letsencrypt.org/contact/ https://prosody.im/bugs/ also examples of prominent "security issues go here"
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  365. Wojtek moparisthebest in case of Tigase you can use contact form here https://tigase.net/technical-support (3rd option, though naming may be confusing); besides - due to size and how we handle communication internally we didn't/don't fee that dedicated security channel was required
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  368. moparisthebest Wojtek, the "If you have our support subscription use the form to send us a message" button?
  369. Wojtek you give example of LE, and even they put a bold: "Please do not write to this address unless your message concerns a security issue with Let’s Encrypt." because, from experience, when you put an email in public place, it's quite often spammed with people ignoring it's intend sadly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  370. Wojtek yes, this one (as I said - naming may be confusing - I'll forward your suggestion to relevant person)
  371. moparisthebest ah yea, I would not have used that unless you said :)
  372. Wojtek sooorryyy :-)
  373. Wojtek in general support without subscription should go to github :-)
  374. Wojtek btw. wasn't there a XSF security mailing list?
  375. pep. there is still, maybe. Seems abandonned though
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  378. Wojtek yeah, but it also seems public so I'm not sure it's viable in this case (I *thought* that it wasn't, or at least it's archive wasn't)
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  381. Wojtek @moparisthebest could you ping me on xmpp:wojtek@tigase.org ?
  382. fippo there was a server-devs mailing list which was created and then used for the dialback bugs.
  383. fippo unused since probably
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  387. Kev Indeed, but is intended for this type of thing.
  388. moparisthebest did those bugs let you crash a good amount of public servers though?
  389. jonas’ that sounds fun
  390. jonas’ crash as in crash?
  391. jonas’ as in total DoS?
  392. moparisthebest this probably shouldn't be public until fixes are out, I've sent it to a number of server devs so far
  393. jonas’ via s2s or authenticated c2s or unauthenticated c2s?
  394. jonas’ yeah
  395. moparisthebest no data leaks, just crash (thankfully?)
  396. jonas’ sounds like something to embargo
  397. fippo no crashes, it was an authentication bypass.
  398. moparisthebest unauthenticated c2s :'( (probably s2s also)
  399. Kev It wasn't a crash, it was an authentication bypass.
  400. Kev Heh.
  401. fippo also just checking: its not a variant of billion laughs?
  402. moparisthebest I haven't heard of that
  403. jonas’ moparisthebest, ouchie
  404. fippo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion_laughs_attack -- there was an xmpp variant of it as well
  405. jonas’ moparisthebest, billion laughs is exponential entity expansion. define an XML entity &foo; which expands to &bar;&bar;, define &bar; to expand to &baz;&baz; and so on.
  406. moparisthebest ah, now that's nice, but no this isn't the same
  407. pep. isn't XMPP parsers not supposed to handle undefined entities?
  408. pep. aren't XMPP parsers not supposed to handle undefined entities?
  409. jonas’ pep., and, more importantly, not supposed to handle entity definitions ;)
  410. Kev Indeed.
  411. pep. right
  412. Kev Not quite the same as people doing the right thing, though :)
  413. jonas’ pep., as we all know, people take shortcuts when implementing stuff
  414. jonas’ and if the shortcut is "not configuring your parser properly" ...
  415. pep. Indeed
  416. fippo well, this came up again a couple of years after the initial CVE. Happens all the time.
  417. moparisthebest now those are some hilarious links https://www.cio.com/article/3082084/xml-is-toast-long-live-json.html https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/issues/83253 "CVE-2019-11253: Kubernetes API Server JSON/YAML parsing vulnerable to resource exhaustion attack"
  418. jonas’ relevant: https://noyaml.com
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  435. Ge0rG When I got my dozen of xmpp clients CVE, I contacted all the developers manually
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