XSF Discussion - 2020-03-10

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  182. rion is updating xep-0371 against updated ICE RFC. PR will be ready soon.
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  319. Link Mauve jonas’, what are your plans wrt XEP-0390?
  320. Link Mauve Is it planned to stay compatible or do you want to change things?
  321. Link Mauve For a new client which doesn’t need to be compatible with anything else, can I require it instead of 0115?
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  327. rion I remember we discussed some missing features in XEP-0390. Not sure if it went to mail-list
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  365. jonas’ Link Mauve, I think it needs some breaking changes
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  367. jonas’ though I don’t recall specifically what those were
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  369. Link Mauve Ok.
  370. Link Mauve I’d like to become author for XEP-0284 btw.
  371. pep. You need an ack from the author? How does that work? Council if no reply from them after some time?
  372. pep. authors*
  373. jonas’ pep., effectively
  374. pep. Link Mauve, can you PR?
  375. Link Mauve Sure.
  376. Link Mauve I have other changes to do too.
  377. pep. :)
  378. pep. Just that it's the best way to get things to move
  379. jonas’ yeah, if we have a PR to look at, we can track the authors responsiveness, and if it is lacking, we can make you author
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  381. Ge0rG And what do you do if you have an author, but you disagree with them on some important architectural points? Fork the XEP?
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  383. pep. I guess that's up to the author to know what they want and accept/refuse new authors
  384. pep. And yeah you'd fork the XEP if you really wanted.. ?
  385. pep. Not sure where council would stand here
  386. moparisthebest Syndace: "GCM is not meant to handle larger amounts of data" what do you mean?
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  388. Syndace moparisthebest: GCM mandates to not return any of the plaintext until the auth tag is verified. This means that conforming implementations have to keep the whole plaintext in ram
  389. moparisthebest I don't think so
  390. Daniel You can/are supposed to chunk the data I think
  391. Syndace See the Conversations thing that you just helped Daniel fix :D
  392. moparisthebest You can just split it into smaller chunks
  393. Daniel But it doesn't matter. The other two points are correct
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  395. Daniel And more important
  396. Syndace Sure, you can also just use CBC
  397. moparisthebest The problem isn't solved by cbc
  398. moparisthebest Do you output unverified CBC decryption? You shouldn't
  399. Syndace We use HMAC
  400. moparisthebest Right, gcm is just hmac but built in so you can't use it incorrectly
  401. Syndace then consider that point of my mail as invalid
  402. moparisthebest The same restriction applies, you shouldn't use the result of the decryption unless the hmac is valid
  403. Link Mauve pep., jonas’, here: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/904
  404. moparisthebest So you must keep that chunk in ram until you do, in both cases the solution is chunking
  405. moparisthebest The "single primitive" is still a good argument
  406. moparisthebest Just means you have to be super careful about the hmac...
  407. Syndace Also I think GCM impls are not known for being bug free and super compatible
  408. Daniel Well to be fair with gcm you have to be careful with the Auth tag
  409. Daniel And both old old omemo and http upload do it wrong
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  411. Daniel I guess you always have to be careful with crypto
  412. moparisthebest I think aes-gcm is required for http2 TLS, pretty compatible
  413. moparisthebest If you use the correct length IV
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  416. moparisthebest Which obviously isn't obvious :)
  417. moparisthebest Do you encrypt then hmac or hmac then encrypt, that's the real gotcha when not using authenticated encryption modes
  418. Syndace encrypt then hmac
  419. Syndace ...the same way it's done by double ratchet
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  421. moparisthebest So you can verify the hmac before you even try to decrypt
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  423. moparisthebest But that means for large data you still need chunked, because the hmac is at the end, so you buffer encrypted data before getting to it, verify, then decrypt
  424. Syndace yup, the description of the message decryption algorithm also lists the hmac verification before the decryption
  425. jonas’ fun
  426. Syndace moparisthebest: well we encrypt stanzas so size limits apply
  427. Syndace pretty sure a single stanza can fit the ram
  428. moparisthebest Hehehe how sure are you :)
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  430. jonas’ moparisthebest, did you submit your updates on '368 already?
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  432. moparisthebest No, still need to...
  433. jonas’ alright, then I didn’t miss it
  434. Syndace > Hehehe how sure are you :) not sure enough. Noted as something we have to think/talk about again, thanks for the input.
  435. jonas’ to play it safe, a Full Stanza Encryption implementation can’t generate stanzas over ~7 kiB (decrypted) either way
  436. Syndace I mean, stanzas are pretty damn certainly under 1 MiB in size, but still there are theoretical edge cases of IoT devices wanting to use OMEMO or something...
  437. Syndace Oh is that so? cool
  438. jonas’ because 10 kiB is the minimum stanza limit defined in RFC 6120
  439. jonas’ not that anyone enforces that
  440. jonas’ I mean your average PEP-based avatar is way above that already
  441. jonas’ s/ki/k/
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  443. jonas’ so my comment is pretty useless, but alludes to a general issue: there should be a limit or (cross-stanza) chunking (which then sounds awfully like sending stanzas via JET-encrypted IBB)
  444. Zash Anyone got stats on avatar sizes?
  445. jonas’ Zash, I have for MUCs ;)
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  447. jonas’ (or, could have. I downscale)
  448. jonas’ (or, could have. I scale them down on ingestion)
  449. jonas’ Syndace, actually, how about implementing FSE as JET-encrypted IBB?
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  451. Syndace I don't XMPP, what is IBB xD Heard of JET at least
  452. jonas’ In-Band Bytestreams
  453. Syndace uh huh
  454. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0047.html
  455. Syndace "sessions" looks like it's synchronous/requires both parties to be online
  456. jonas’ ahh, right
  457. jonas’ that’s gonna be a deal-breaker
  458. jonas’ would’ve been fun tho
  459. jonas’ so you need to either specify some kind of chunking (then the question: how to deal with missing chunks? see the vulnerabilities in IP fragmentation implementations to get an idea of why this question is important and non-trivial) or set an upper limit which is sane
  460. Syndace chunking is a big nope from my side
  461. Syndace so much complexity for such an edge case
  462. lovetox xmpp.net server test is soooooo slow
  463. Syndace servers are already encouraged to do stanza-too-big stuff
  464. jonas’ Syndace, so we end up with Path-MTU discovery in XMPP :D
  465. jonas’ lovely
  466. jonas’ it is amazing how problems replicate on each layer of the stack
  467. lovetox it cant even take my request to check a new server
  468. moparisthebest I'm about 98% sure all clients would crash and burn if a server sent them too big of a stanza
  469. Syndace yeaj
  470. moparisthebest for some definition of too big
  471. Syndace yeah
  472. jonas’ when I started aioxmpp, I asked, and people told me to trust the server on that one.
  473. jonas’ and I think that’s a sane way to look at it
  474. jonas’ obviously it shouldn’t allow you to RCE, and you may handle it more gracefully than OOMing, but what are you gonna do?
  475. moparisthebest *maybe*, but RFC-wise does anything really stop a server from just streaming stanzas around?
  476. Syndace I'm not sure that's on us to solve
  477. Link Mauve lovetox, it throttles a lot in order not to take down any server, no matter how underpowered it is.
  478. moparisthebest once you have who the stanza is addressed to, you don't really *need* to buffer it in memory anymore as a server right?
  479. moparisthebest just read a bit and send it right out the other end
  480. jonas’ moparisthebest, you still need to do buffering to synchronise when multiple entities want to same to the same entity at the same time
  481. moparisthebest I suspect no servers in the wild are written this way, but they could be
  482. jonas’ you also have to reject stanzas which are invalid XML
  483. jonas’ (as per a MUST in RFC 6120)
  484. jonas’ so you have to at least de- and re-serialise them
  485. moparisthebest hmm, well that does imply buffering entire stanzas then
  486. jonas’ (of course, you can do this by simply streaming SAX events around, no need to build the full tree)
  487. jonas’ ah yeah, you have to at least keep a copy
  488. lovetox damn xmpp.net server test cant do direct tls test ..
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  490. lovetox can somebody test direct tls on movim.eu
  491. jonas’ correct
  492. jonas’ "test"?
  493. lovetox it does send invalid tls handshake for me, and i want to find out if thats my lib or a problem on the server
  494. jonas’ s2s, c2s?
  495. lovetox c2s
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  497. moparisthebest does it listen on 443? if so you can test the TLS bit with ssllabs.com
  498. lovetox no
  499. lovetox
  500. lovetox thats the address
  501. jonas’ 2020/03/10 18:58:09 failed to probe c2s to xmpp:movim.eu: tls: first record does not look like a TLS handshake
  502. jonas’ lovetox, ^
  503. jonas’ my blackbox exporter agrees
  504. jonas’ openssl s_client agrees, too: 139993024365760:error:1408F10B:SSL routines:ssl3_get_record:wrong version number:../ssl/record/ssl3_record.c:331:
  505. jonas’ yeah, that’s plain XMPP
  506. moparisthebest you can also do https://nl.movim.eu:5223/
  507. jonas’ sending anything with ncat gives me a not-well-formed XMPP steram error
  508. jonas’ do http:// instead
  509. moparisthebest won't let me, HSTS ?
  510. jonas’ pity
  511. jonas’ then use ncat :)
  512. moparisthebest but yes, mostly that works too :)
  513. jonas’ it’s a plaintext XMPP port, not direct TLS
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  515. moparisthebest yep that record is wrong, dino will likely fail to connect ever too
  516. moparisthebest (yet another reason TCP connect success should NOT be a criteria for not falling back to next SRV record)
  517. lovetox yes moparisthebest a user reported this today
  518. lovetox and now he cant connect, because i dont try the others ^
  519. moparisthebest who's responsible for movim.eu ? edhelas ?
  520. lovetox yeah i notified him
  521. lovetox but see moparisthebest nobody would find that error
  522. lovetox its a thin line to walk
  523. moparisthebest well, user would probably have preferred to just be connected though
  524. lovetox you dont want to shadow all errors, and you dont want to make your users mad
  525. moparisthebest you could maybe report connection errors anyway?
  526. lovetox yes, i agree in this case user wants to connect and does not care
  527. moparisthebest "hey we failed to connect to X so now we are connecting to Y" or something
  528. moparisthebest you won't hear any "UX is easy" arguments from me :)
  529. jonas’ lovetox, it’s the operators responsibility to monitor
  530. jonas’ the tools are there
  531. moparisthebest 10 day TTL on that SRV record, so the fix needs to be make that a direct TLS port, not remove the SRV
  532. jonas’ the first error I showed you is from a tool to monitor c2s/s2s connectivity on both direct TLS and STARTTLS. it can even do XMPP pings if you give it credentials. it’ll also check whether expected SASL mechanisms are there.
  533. jonas’ hm
  534. jonas’ maybe I should take the search.jabber.network domain corpus and scan all the SRV endpoints and notify operators about failures.
  535. jonas’ or at least the corpus of domains affiliated with the top 100 or so rooms
  536. moparisthebest I was going to say, a tool is good, but you need another off-network server to be able to run it on for it to be real useful most of the time, not all admins have that I guess
  537. jonas’ moparisthebest, not really
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  539. jonas’ most of the time, failures discovered by monitoring from the outside are not something you can fix either way
  540. moparisthebest if you only have 1 server, running the tool and xmpp server on the same machine isn't ideal
  541. jonas’ it’s not ideal, but it would definitely have caught this problem
  542. moparisthebest certainly better than *nothing*, and yes
  543. jonas’ it will also catch the issue when the server runs OOM
  544. jonas’ and crashes
  545. jonas’ it will catch most of the things you can fix locally
  546. jonas’ it won’t catch when the entire box goes down, but chances are you’ll notice that either way
  547. jonas’ (and you can ping-probe the up-ness of the box cheaply from the outside)
  548. jonas’ also, maybe I should start offering XMPP probes to others. it’s cheap for me to do, sending emails on problems is cheap too
  549. moparisthebest on my giant todo list is still such a tool/service but also checking things like "is alpn required" and such
  550. jonas’ moparisthebest, feel free to include basic checks in this: https://github.com/horazont/prometheus-xmpp-blackbox-exporter
  551. moparisthebest "is SNI required" as well, similar to ssllabs
  552. jonas’ "is X required" kind of stuff isn’t interesting for continuous monitoring though
  553. jonas’ (oftentimes)
  554. moparisthebest yep I agree, it's pretty helpful when setting up though
  555. jonas’ true
  556. jonas’ extending/rewriting xmpp.net would be the target for this type of efforts
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  585. jonas’ > I honestly don’t see the point in proving to the other side that you can do regular expressions on the user input. ahahaha
  586. jonas’ > I honestly don’t see the point in proving to the other side that you can do regular expressions on the user input. ahahaha
  587. jonas’ love that wording
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