XSF Discussion - 2020-03-12

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  132. jonas’ https://mobile.twitter.com/jennafranke/status/1237493419510919168 > Not desperate enough to try WebEx, tho.
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  142. rion xep-0371 has somewhat weird statement <p>In the unlikely event that one of the parties determines that it cannot establish connectivity even after sending and checking lower-priority candidates, it SHOULD terminate the session as described in <cite>XEP-0166</cite>.</p> But this may be content-remove or transport-replace as well. I'd remove this line at all.
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  234. rion I'll update my ICE PR a little bit more this evening. What has to be done for it to be merged?
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  236. rion I just asked psa on jabber to review it. Not response so far.
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  239. rion oh. every time I write something to fippo, he is "*** fippo has been removed from the room due to technical problem" Where can I get his email?
  240. rion seems like found on wiki his jid :)
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  244. rion I'll make an email threads afterwards, when I stop updating ICE PR. :)
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  319. Guus I'm following government update on corona, want to keep following that
  320. Guus (re: board meeting)
  321. pep. !
  322. ralphm same here
  323. pep. What does that mean re board meeting?
  324. ralphm shouldn't take more than a few minutes, I think
  325. Guus regarding
  326. pep. There's some kind of announcement or sth?
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  328. ralphm Yeah, additional measures.
  329. pep. k
  330. ralphm E.g. shutdown of all events, venues >100 persons.
  331. nyco-2 in France, it used to be 5 k, then 1k, Macron will speak on TV at 20:00
  332. pep. No but france is not in danger! number are way lower than other countries around! We can keep the economy going! Let's not disrupt the market :)
  333. moparisthebest New marketing strategy: meeting via XMPP prevents coronavirus
  334. Ge0rG ,oO( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22554145 )
  335. moparisthebest Can't imagine a group that "smart" will come up with anything
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  340. pep. How is the thing going?
  341. nyco-2 Covid-19 growth goes quite fine 🙂
  342. pep. Talking about the announcement :P
  343. nyco-2 :-p
  344. nyco-2 I gotta go, won't be able to do the minutes this time
  345. pep. nyco-2, plesae try to read commteam@ when you have some time
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  349. Guus Board: are we still meeting today?
  350. pep. Please
  351. Guus ralphm MattJ Seve ?
  352. MattJ Here
  353. Seve Hello :)
  354. ralphm waves
  355. Guus full house
  356. ralphm 0. Welcome
  357. ralphm Hi all, slightly delayed :-D
  358. ralphm Any additional items for the agenda?
  359. MattJ None from me
  360. Guus none here
  361. pep. nope
  362. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  363. pep. If nobody I can do that afterwards
  364. ralphm Can somebody pick this up instead of nyco?
  365. ralphm Thanks pep
  366. ralphm 2. Sponsors
  367. ralphm I'm almost done drafting the e-mails I promised. I will send them to the board list for review.
  368. ralphm Anything specific you'd like to put in there, in terms of funding things this year?
  369. Guus (none from me)
  370. pep. hmm, as an example, sure, I'd like to start discussions around that at least
  371. Guus We might want to avoid making the request to specific, which would tie us down.
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  373. ralphm Sure, I'd note them as considerations.
  374. pep. Sprints is one that's in the process already. Sponsoring travel fees etc. to conferences I'd like to tackle at some point. Work in different teams that need it? iteam for example. Work on specifications that we deem necessary, etc.
  375. ralphm Without funding, making such choices might be harder.
  376. ralphm pep., I've already put in travel, sprints/meetups.
  377. pep. k
  378. ralphm And was indeed considering iteam
  379. MattJ sgtm
  380. ralphm (as in paying somebody to do work there, which I think was mentioned earlier)
  381. Guus we could put in a generic refernce to marketing
  382. ralphm nods
  383. pep. Yes marketing
  384. pep. The community manager nyco mentioned at summit
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  386. ralphm I don't recall that. Can you summarize that a bit?
  387. Guus "we need marketing" 😃
  388. pep. That
  389. ralphm I meant specifically the community manager bit
  390. Seve 😁
  391. pep. Somebody to be active on different social media platforms because commteam can't commit to it themselves
  392. ralphm I fully agreed on needing marketing :_D
  393. ralphm ok
  394. ralphm Thanks, I can work with that.
  395. pep. Even just a few hours a week
  396. Guus isn't Nyco teamlead of commteam
  397. Guus (hence the title that pep used)
  398. ralphm yes
  399. ralphm ok
  400. ralphm 3. SCAM's Supporting Sprints proposal
  401. ralphm I've read the minutes on this. I'd indeed take this out of the SCAM budget. If that budget turns out to not be sufficient, it might be good to revise.
  402. Guus Is board in agreement that having compensation in some form is desirable?
  403. pep. Peter as the treasurer seems to say it's not an issue, and he's actually trying alternative ways to send money outside US
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  407. MattJ I'm in favour of funding sprints (under the conditions of the proposal that's been put forward), and in favour of it coming from the SCAM budget, and in favour of increasing the SCAM budget if it's insufficient
  408. ralphm Guus, I'd say that if sprints, organized under the XSF "flag" incur costs, we should carry that.
  409. MattJ Obviously there should be a sensible cap on the number of events we fund per year, I think the proposal covered things like this fairly well
  410. Guus I'm in favor too.
  411. ralphm SCAM would get incoming sprints requests, assess costs, approve as a SCAM activity, and then arrange for refunding.
  412. Guus Having it taken out of the SCAM budget (which I dislike, but can agree with) does give us a natural cap / safety limit.
  413. MattJ Yes
  414. Seve Right
  415. ralphm Guus: why do you dislike that? The S in SCAM is for sprints.
  416. pep. I don't see an issue with covering this with SCAM. We can indeed revise the budget later
  417. pep. heh, such backronym :p
  418. Guus scam budget was intended for out of pocket costs, in my opinion. Adding this would make it more of a financial entity.
  419. ralphm pep: S{prints,ummits} Conferences and Meetups.
  420. Guus but, as I said - I don't feel very strong about this.
  421. ralphm Guus: well, no, SCAM budget up till now has mostly been for paying for stuff at the Summit / FOSDEM, including renting a van, and buying materials such as banners.
  422. ralphm I wouldn't count those as pocket costs.
  423. MattJ brb
  424. Guus ralphm I really don't think it's worth our time to discuss this.
  425. Guus I'm fine with it.
  426. ralphm Ok, good.
  427. pep. heh, I'd be interested to know what exactly goes into the scam budget
  428. pep. I'll raise that in scam@
  429. ralphm Since we are in agreement this is already covered by the SCAM budget, I don't think we need to take action right now.
  430. ralphm Other than me putting in some expenses :-D
  431. Guus hehe, that makes three of us 🙂
  432. ralphm Good.
  433. ralphm Since we're already delayed:
  434. ralphm 4. AOB
  435. Guus do we want to do something around corona?
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  438. Guus eg: advise to not have sprints?
  439. Guus (fwiw: I don't think so)
  440. pep. I think people are big enough to make their own decisions
  441. Guus agreed.
  442. ralphm I'd defer that to Sprint organisers.
  443. pep. We're not competent in this regard
  444. Seve > I'd defer that to Sprint organisers. That
  445. ralphm If the Summit would have been planned in the near future, it would surely be cancelled.
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  448. pep. I don't think we've finished the discussion around board voting process etc., happy to defer to next week, but I'd like to come back to it at some point nonetheless
  449. ralphm pep., ok, let's do that next week.
  450. Guus right.
  451. pep. It should have been a 5mn talk but whatever
  452. Guus pep: maybe prepare on list?
  453. Seve Okay
  454. ralphm I do have to go to other meetings unfortunately.
  455. Guus now, or next week?
  456. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  457. Guus +1w wfm
  458. MattJ wfm
  459. Seve Alright!
  460. pep. same here
  461. ralphm 6. Close
  462. ralphm Thanks all!
  463. MattJ Thanks!
  464. Seve Take care!
  465. pep. Thanks
  466. ralphm bangs gavel (once retroactively, once now)
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  480. pep. https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2020/mar/12/virtualchat/ Software Freedom Conservancy inviting people to chat :)
  481. Daniel The golden age of IM
  482. jonas’ #corona?
  483. rion are we gonna have coronavirus XEP for April 1 ?
  484. jonas’ I’m sceptical about putting out a humurous document about an ongoing pandemic killing people daily.
  485. pep. yeah
  486. pep. As an editor I'd definitely avoid that
  487. rion out guys already joking about deprecating handshakes for tcp
  488. rion too black humor?
  489. jonas’ a matter of audience and placement
  490. pep. The TCP handshake is fun as a tweet
  491. jonas’ yeah
  492. jonas’ it’s not fun as a standards document
  493. moparisthebest for april 1st this year I'm going to propose advancing DoX to draft
  494. moparisthebest keep everyone guessing as to how serious it is
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  496. jonas’ and I can make fun of corona despite my father-in-law being most certainly within the 2% if he got infected, but I’d not be comfortable with a Humorous Track XEP
  497. pep. Humorous draft?
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  499. moparisthebest no it's standards track
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  501. jonas’ pep., it’s Standards Track.
  502. larma moparisthebest, fwiw, we plan to implement it in Dino at some point
  503. jonas’ moparisthebest, if you wanna be fun, build a DoX frontend for dnsdist
  504. larma to circumvent Tor not having UDP for DNS SRV lookups
  505. moparisthebest good use-case larma ! :)
  506. Daniel And Do(XT) is not good enough?
  507. Daniel And Do(HT) is not good enough?
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  509. larma Daniel, works as well, but why use HTTP in an XMPP client if we don't need to?
  510. Daniel Less rtt
  511. larma It's not a huge difference in implementation work
  512. larma Not really?
  513. jonas’ Daniel, I guess that depends on whether you hold the connection or not
  514. jonas’ I’d prefer DoT though
  515. jonas’ it’s the least insane thing to do
  516. moparisthebest it's tricky, if you keep the XMPP connection up it's far less RTT/overhead than DoH, if you don't...
  517. moparisthebest what you really want to do is DoX over BOSH
  518. jonas’ moparisthebest, problem is, though, when you need to do DNS lookups, you probably need to do that because you’re reconnecting. You’ll also have to cycle your DoX connection then.
  519. Daniel Realistically I'm not going to hold the connection uoen
  520. Daniel Realistically I'm not going to hold the connection upen
  521. Daniel Especially since most times when I need srv records I just switched networks
  522. moparisthebest I think for initial SRV lookup that's right
  523. Daniel Or coming back from suspend or whatever
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  526. Daniel Are there non-initial srv lookups ml
  527. Daniel Are there non-initial srv lookups?
  528. jonas’ I don’t think so
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  530. Ge0rG *cough* 0198 resume *cough*
  531. jonas’ I’d be surprised if DoX servers would support '198
  532. jonas’ I mean, DoX servers for public use
  533. moparisthebest Daniel, I was about to say "not for a client" but, http upload, ICE, STUN, TURN etc ?
  534. jonas’ none of that needs SRV
  535. moparisthebest but it needs DNS
  536. jonas’ sure, but you can have that via Tor for TCP connections
  537. jonas’ no need to do it yourself
  538. Daniel It's also questionable if you need stun or turn when connected over tor
  539. david has joined
  540. moparisthebest well I didn't exactly mean *only* over tor
  541. moparisthebest might be nice to have an XMPP client pull a firefox, let you hardcode IP+port to connect to for initial SRV bootstrap, and dns jid for all after-connection lookups, so no standard DNS ever comes from the client
  542. jonas’ frankly, I don’t ever see a reason to prefer DoX or even DoH for non-browser software
  543. aj has joined
  544. jonas’ DoT is good enough
  545. moparisthebest extra connections, extra RTT
  546. jonas’ you also need an extra connection for (initial) DoX
  547. moparisthebest just the once though
  548. jonas’ same for DoT
  549. jonas’ you can reuse your TLS connection for multiple requests
  550. moparisthebest that's only a maybe, in practice they'll disconnect you if you are quiet for any length of time
  551. jonas’ I expect your DoX proxy to do the same
  552. jonas’ and keeping the DoX connection alive is stupid, because you’ll need to ping it either way to keep it alive for NATs and stuff
  553. jonas’ it’s expensive
  554. jonas’ when you don’t need it, tear it down
  555. moparisthebest no? once you are connected you only keep the connection open to your server, then just exchange messages between dox jid and you
  556. jonas’ ah, so you’re going to use your real JID to ask the DoX service?
  557. jonas’ after you just asked for the SRV record?
  558. jonas’ essentially de-anonymizing your initial request?
  559. moparisthebest I agree DoX doesn't have an advantage over DoH or DoT for initial SRV lookup
  560. jonas’ I’m not convinced that associating your real JID with DNS lookups is a good idea
  561. moparisthebest JID, IP, what's the difference
  562. moparisthebest nothing says you are asking the same one either
  563. jonas’ a huge when we’re talking about Tor
  564. pep. moparisthebest, "pull a firefox" :P
  565. jonas’ moparisthebest, a JID is a stable identifier, an IP is not.
  566. jonas’ if you’re a government or ISP, sure, you can do a lot with an IP
  567. moparisthebest eh, both those are shaky
  568. moparisthebest IP can be, JID may not be
  569. jonas’ a JID is, period. Unless we’re talking about SASL ANONYMOUS, which will cut your connection after inactivity just like a DoT resolver will, to conserve resources
  570. moparisthebest maybe, maybe not
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  572. moparisthebest I'm not convinced something@something.onion is an identifier you can tie back to an individual like an IP could be
  573. jonas’ that’s assuming you’re connecting to an onion service. which will not be able to federate with lots of servers.
  574. moparisthebest we could also define something like "server de-identifying DoX IQs" or so, ie modify from=jid@domain to from=domain then put it back on reply
  575. jonas’ ah, I want to write a generic IQ proxy XEP either way
  576. moparisthebest yea, I'd like to fix that (many servers not federating with .onion)
  577. jonas’ in context of XEP-0433
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  581. Ge0rG jonas’: you could write a generic XMPP proxy XEP.
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  583. Ge0rG why only do IQs if you can do... ANYTHING!
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  585. moparisthebest well, depending on the payload the other end probably cares about who sent it
  586. moparisthebest DoX should not, however
  587. moparisthebest I don't think a server should care about catering to evil DoX backends that send different answers to different JIDs :)
  588. jonas’ Ge0rG, because the way I envision it it would be kind of like stateless NAT, so you need some context attached to the conversation. That means that message replies wouldn’t necessarily be routable
  589. moparisthebest but could be nice and make it opt-in for clients anyhow
  590. jonas’ presence being even worse
  591. jonas’ kind of like a generalised and reversed mod_client_proxy
  592. jonas’ also standardised ;)
  593. Ge0rG just use sha256(real_jid)@proxy-component. Problem solved.
  594. jonas’ how to revert that?
  595. jonas’ (when the reply comes in)
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  597. moparisthebest jonas’, ah, so like a client can specifically ask the component to "proxy this IQ to this JID for me please?" that would be ideal
  598. moparisthebest yea, if you do sha256(real_jid) you still have to keep a reverse lookup table, so it'd be better to use something the other end has no chance of reversing, a randomly generated per-account string or so
  599. jonas’ you send your IQ to the component and the component sends it to the receiver
  600. Ge0rG jonas’: keep an eternal map ;)
  601. Ge0rG jonas’: how do you route the IQ reply? Or will you just keep all in-flight IQs in memory forever?
  602. Ge0rG Because, that never caused trouble in the past, you know.
  603. jonas’ Ge0rG, in mod_client_proxy it’s easy, it’s 100% stateless. but it’s not anonymizing
  604. moparisthebest if each client has a stable identifier@proxy-component ^
  605. Ge0rG jonas’: yeah, you can't have both.
  606. moparisthebest but otherwise, hairy I guess
  607. jonas’ in case of the proxy protocol, the only way would be to keep a temporary map (maybe generate a random ID per request?) and map based on that. and when the peer doesn’t reply in time, synthesize a specific timeout error
  608. jonas’ moparisthebest, no need for identifier@, you can put it all in the IQ @id
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  612. moparisthebest well it's 1 or the other right? identifier@ and stateless, or not and you have to keep track of IQs ?
  613. jonas’ you can’t have it fully stateless
  614. jonas’ (and nothing stops you from base64-encoding some kind of struct in the IQ @id and decoding that when translating back
  615. moparisthebest if bob@server 's proxy id was some-identifier-tied-to-bob@proxy-component, then it'd be fully stateless right?
  616. jonas’ ahh, but that’d require registration with the proxy component
  617. jonas’ and I’d rather not have people have persistent addresses behind the proxy
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  619. jonas’ though that’s actually an implementation detail
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  621. moparisthebest yea, servers could rotate whenever
  622. jonas’ the key part is specifying the protocol to wrap your IQ and letting the proxy handle it. how the proxy does the translation (and whether it, for example, requires registration or affiliation with a server or not) is up to the impl
  623. moparisthebest like it'd probably be sane to rotate every 24 hours but keep the last one active for incoming, or something
  624. jonas’ there is no incoming after the IQ reply came back
  625. moparisthebest yea, but if you didn't want to track anything
  626. jonas’ you have to track something at least
  627. moparisthebest tracking each IQ seems harder than just having a list of each JID that used you in the last 24 hours
  628. jonas’ *shrug*
  629. jonas’ implementation details!
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  631. moparisthebest yep I think so... as long as the spec doesn't push you into a corner, sounds like it'd be fine though
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  638. moparisthebest rion, "joking about deprecating handshakes for tcp" my synpathies for anyone using it afterwards
  639. jonas’ QUIC?
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  669. Alex hey guys, its meeting time. Are you ready?
  670. Ge0rG huh what?
  671. Alex membership
  672. Alex approving our voting results
  673. Guus ack
  674. Daniel I'm here
  675. Alex great
  676. Alex bangs the gavel
  677. pep. !
  678. pep. Just while Macron is speaking on TV!
  679. jonas’ whoopsie
  680. jonas’ totally missed it, good thing I voted already ;)
  681. Alex here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-03-12
  682. jonas’ dinner time now, won’t attend actively
  683. Alex pep.‎, cannot compete with your presedent ;-)
  684. pep. It's fine, probably bs as usual :)
  685. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  686. Ge0rG looks like I voted already as well. Phew!
  687. Alex as you can see 29 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
  688. Zash just voted
  689. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  690. Alex new and returnign members, you can see the Wiki page for that here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2020
  691. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
  692. Alex memberbot is still online, so if someone has not voted yet this is your time now ;-)
  693. Alex zash, got your vote 3 minutes ago
  694. Zash :D
  695. Alex anyone else?
  696. Alex otherwise I will shuitdown the bot and work on the results
  697. pep. Alex, one sec, linkmauve is on it :P
  698. pep. Link Mauve, ^
  699. Link Mauve Yes, I’m on it.
  700. Alex no rush, nobody is waiting for you 😂
  701. Alex got your vote
  702. Alex more coming?
  703. Link Mauve There, I’m done!
  704. Alex okay
  705. Alex will shut down then and start counting
  706. Link Mauve Adding to memberbot’s TODO: accept LMC.
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  708. Alex okay, I am ready
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  711. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  712. Alex when you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-03-12#Announcement_of_Voting_Results you can see the results
  713. Alex all applicants and reappliers were accepted
  714. Alex congrats to everyone
  715. pep. Thanks Alex
  716. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
  717. pep. And welcome emus :)
  718. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  719. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  720. pep. \o/
  721. Link Mauve Thanks Alex, and congrats everyone. :)
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  723. Guus +!
  724. Guus +1
  725. Alex bangs the gavel
  726. Guus Thanks Alex!
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  728. emus \o/ Hello, and thank you!
  729. rion has left
  730. Link Mauve emus, welcome to the XSF!
  731. Neustradamus 🤘
  732. emus Link Mauve: Thanks 👋🎉
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  734. jonas’ welcome emus
  735. jonas’ all current council members got at least -2
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  737. emus jonas’: Hello hello, thanks
  738. Daniel > all current council members got at least -2 We are too spammy with our Last calls 😂
  739. jonas’ that’s clearly the editors fault
  740. jonas’ though all the editors also got at least -2
  741. emus Daniel: Better dont read the next Newsletter 😅
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  743. vanitasvitae Welcome Emus!
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  745. emus 😊 Muchas gracias!
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  760. pep. I guess so, don't remember exactly how that works
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  763. pep. ah fail pm
  764. pep. Sorry but that Conversations "feature" kills every single time
  765. pep. Sorry but that Conversations "feature" kills me every single time
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  769. Ge0rG 🤐
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  817. pep. https://act.eff.org/action/protect-our-speech-and-security-online-reject-the-graham-blumenthal-bill For US citizens. And for the rest, please send that to your friends in the US.
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  828. lovetox i think they gonna have other problems coming next week :/
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  830. emus lovetox: are talking about corona or what did I miss?
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  838. lovetox yes
  839. lovetox i think it will hit the US pretty hard
  840. lovetox i think their health care system is in really bad shape to handle this
  841. emus Yes, just thought the same
  842. Daniel Good thing they have good leadership
  843. pep. lovetox, and bernie is less and less likely to win. We're going to laugh when we see their health care system fail to handle all of this..
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