XSF Discussion - 2020-03-12

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  132. jonas’

    https://mobile.twitter.com/jennafranke/status/1237493419510919168 > Not desperate enough to try WebEx, tho.

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  142. rion

    xep-0371 has somewhat weird statement <p>In the unlikely event that one of the parties determines that it cannot establish connectivity even after sending and checking lower-priority candidates, it SHOULD terminate the session as described in <cite>XEP-0166</cite>.</p> But this may be content-remove or transport-replace as well. I'd remove this line at all.

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  234. rion

    I'll update my ICE PR a little bit more this evening. What has to be done for it to be merged?

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  236. rion

    I just asked psa on jabber to review it. Not response so far.

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  239. rion

    oh. every time I write something to fippo, he is "*** fippo has been removed from the room due to technical problem" Where can I get his email?

  240. rion

    seems like found on wiki his jid :)

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  244. rion

    I'll make an email threads afterwards, when I stop updating ICE PR. :)

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  319. Guus

    I'm following government update on corona, want to keep following that

  320. Guus

    (re: board meeting)

  321. pep.


  322. ralphm

    same here

  323. pep.

    What does that mean re board meeting?

  324. ralphm

    shouldn't take more than a few minutes, I think

  325. Guus


  326. pep.

    There's some kind of announcement or sth?

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  328. ralphm

    Yeah, additional measures.

  329. pep.


  330. ralphm

    E.g. shutdown of all events, venues >100 persons.

  331. nyco-2

    in France, it used to be 5 k, then 1k, Macron will speak on TV at 20:00

  332. pep.

    No but france is not in danger! number are way lower than other countries around! We can keep the economy going! Let's not disrupt the market :)

  333. moparisthebest

    New marketing strategy: meeting via XMPP prevents coronavirus

  334. Ge0rG ,oO( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22554145 )

  335. moparisthebest

    Can't imagine a group that "smart" will come up with anything

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  340. pep.

    How is the thing going?

  341. nyco-2

    Covid-19 growth goes quite fine 🙂

  342. pep.

    Talking about the announcement :P

  343. nyco-2


  344. nyco-2

    I gotta go, won't be able to do the minutes this time

  345. pep.

    nyco-2, plesae try to read commteam@ when you have some time

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  349. Guus

    Board: are we still meeting today?

  350. pep.


  351. Guus

    ralphm MattJ Seve ?

  352. MattJ


  353. Seve

    Hello :)

  354. ralphm waves

  355. Guus

    full house

  356. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  357. ralphm

    Hi all, slightly delayed :-D

  358. ralphm

    Any additional items for the agenda?

  359. MattJ

    None from me

  360. Guus

    none here

  361. pep.


  362. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  363. pep.

    If nobody I can do that afterwards

  364. ralphm

    Can somebody pick this up instead of nyco?

  365. ralphm

    Thanks pep

  366. ralphm

    2. Sponsors

  367. ralphm

    I'm almost done drafting the e-mails I promised. I will send them to the board list for review.

  368. ralphm

    Anything specific you'd like to put in there, in terms of funding things this year?

  369. Guus

    (none from me)

  370. pep.

    hmm, as an example, sure, I'd like to start discussions around that at least

  371. Guus

    We might want to avoid making the request to specific, which would tie us down.

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  373. ralphm

    Sure, I'd note them as considerations.

  374. pep.

    Sprints is one that's in the process already. Sponsoring travel fees etc. to conferences I'd like to tackle at some point. Work in different teams that need it? iteam for example. Work on specifications that we deem necessary, etc.

  375. ralphm

    Without funding, making such choices might be harder.

  376. ralphm

    pep., I've already put in travel, sprints/meetups.

  377. pep.


  378. ralphm

    And was indeed considering iteam

  379. MattJ


  380. ralphm

    (as in paying somebody to do work there, which I think was mentioned earlier)

  381. Guus

    we could put in a generic refernce to marketing

  382. ralphm nods

  383. pep.

    Yes marketing

  384. pep.

    The community manager nyco mentioned at summit

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  386. ralphm

    I don't recall that. Can you summarize that a bit?

  387. Guus

    "we need marketing" 😃

  388. pep.


  389. ralphm

    I meant specifically the community manager bit

  390. Seve


  391. pep.

    Somebody to be active on different social media platforms because commteam can't commit to it themselves

  392. ralphm

    I fully agreed on needing marketing :_D

  393. ralphm


  394. ralphm

    Thanks, I can work with that.

  395. pep.

    Even just a few hours a week

  396. Guus

    isn't Nyco teamlead of commteam

  397. Guus

    (hence the title that pep used)

  398. ralphm


  399. ralphm


  400. ralphm

    3. SCAM's Supporting Sprints proposal

  401. ralphm

    I've read the minutes on this. I'd indeed take this out of the SCAM budget. If that budget turns out to not be sufficient, it might be good to revise.

  402. Guus

    Is board in agreement that having compensation in some form is desirable?

  403. pep.

    Peter as the treasurer seems to say it's not an issue, and he's actually trying alternative ways to send money outside US

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  407. MattJ

    I'm in favour of funding sprints (under the conditions of the proposal that's been put forward), and in favour of it coming from the SCAM budget, and in favour of increasing the SCAM budget if it's insufficient

  408. ralphm

    Guus, I'd say that if sprints, organized under the XSF "flag" incur costs, we should carry that.

  409. MattJ

    Obviously there should be a sensible cap on the number of events we fund per year, I think the proposal covered things like this fairly well

  410. Guus

    I'm in favor too.

  411. ralphm

    SCAM would get incoming sprints requests, assess costs, approve as a SCAM activity, and then arrange for refunding.

  412. Guus

    Having it taken out of the SCAM budget (which I dislike, but can agree with) does give us a natural cap / safety limit.

  413. MattJ


  414. Seve


  415. ralphm

    Guus: why do you dislike that? The S in SCAM is for sprints.

  416. pep.

    I don't see an issue with covering this with SCAM. We can indeed revise the budget later

  417. pep.

    heh, such backronym :p

  418. Guus

    scam budget was intended for out of pocket costs, in my opinion. Adding this would make it more of a financial entity.

  419. ralphm

    pep: S{prints,ummits} Conferences and Meetups.

  420. Guus

    but, as I said - I don't feel very strong about this.

  421. ralphm

    Guus: well, no, SCAM budget up till now has mostly been for paying for stuff at the Summit / FOSDEM, including renting a van, and buying materials such as banners.

  422. ralphm

    I wouldn't count those as pocket costs.

  423. MattJ


  424. Guus

    ralphm I really don't think it's worth our time to discuss this.

  425. Guus

    I'm fine with it.

  426. ralphm

    Ok, good.

  427. pep.

    heh, I'd be interested to know what exactly goes into the scam budget

  428. pep.

    I'll raise that in scam@

  429. ralphm

    Since we are in agreement this is already covered by the SCAM budget, I don't think we need to take action right now.

  430. ralphm

    Other than me putting in some expenses :-D

  431. Guus

    hehe, that makes three of us 🙂

  432. ralphm


  433. ralphm

    Since we're already delayed:

  434. ralphm

    4. AOB

  435. Guus

    do we want to do something around corona?

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  438. Guus

    eg: advise to not have sprints?

  439. Guus

    (fwiw: I don't think so)

  440. pep.

    I think people are big enough to make their own decisions

  441. Guus


  442. ralphm

    I'd defer that to Sprint organisers.

  443. pep.

    We're not competent in this regard

  444. Seve

    > I'd defer that to Sprint organisers. That

  445. ralphm

    If the Summit would have been planned in the near future, it would surely be cancelled.

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  448. pep.

    I don't think we've finished the discussion around board voting process etc., happy to defer to next week, but I'd like to come back to it at some point nonetheless

  449. ralphm

    pep., ok, let's do that next week.

  450. Guus


  451. pep.

    It should have been a 5mn talk but whatever

  452. Guus

    pep: maybe prepare on list?

  453. Seve


  454. ralphm

    I do have to go to other meetings unfortunately.

  455. Guus

    now, or next week?

  456. ralphm

    5. Date of Next

  457. Guus

    +1w wfm

  458. MattJ


  459. Seve


  460. pep.

    same here

  461. ralphm

    6. Close

  462. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  463. MattJ


  464. Seve

    Take care!

  465. pep.


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  480. pep.

    https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2020/mar/12/virtualchat/ Software Freedom Conservancy inviting people to chat :)

  481. Daniel

    The golden age of IM

  482. jonas’


  483. rion

    are we gonna have coronavirus XEP for April 1 ?

  484. jonas’

    I’m sceptical about putting out a humurous document about an ongoing pandemic killing people daily.

  485. pep.


  486. pep.

    As an editor I'd definitely avoid that

  487. rion

    out guys already joking about deprecating handshakes for tcp

  488. rion

    too black humor?

  489. jonas’

    a matter of audience and placement

  490. pep.

    The TCP handshake is fun as a tweet

  491. jonas’


  492. jonas’

    it’s not fun as a standards document

  493. moparisthebest

    for april 1st this year I'm going to propose advancing DoX to draft

  494. moparisthebest

    keep everyone guessing as to how serious it is

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  496. jonas’

    and I can make fun of corona despite my father-in-law being most certainly within the 2% if he got infected, but I’d not be comfortable with a Humorous Track XEP

  497. pep.

    Humorous draft?

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  499. moparisthebest

    no it's standards track

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  501. jonas’

    pep., it’s Standards Track.

  502. larma

    moparisthebest, fwiw, we plan to implement it in Dino at some point

  503. jonas’

    moparisthebest, if you wanna be fun, build a DoX frontend for dnsdist

  504. larma

    to circumvent Tor not having UDP for DNS SRV lookups

  505. moparisthebest

    good use-case larma ! :)

  506. Daniel

    And Do(XT) is not good enough?

  507. Daniel

    And Do(HT) is not good enough?

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  509. larma

    Daniel, works as well, but why use HTTP in an XMPP client if we don't need to?

  510. Daniel

    Less rtt

  511. larma

    It's not a huge difference in implementation work

  512. larma

    Not really?

  513. jonas’

    Daniel, I guess that depends on whether you hold the connection or not

  514. jonas’

    I’d prefer DoT though

  515. jonas’

    it’s the least insane thing to do

  516. moparisthebest

    it's tricky, if you keep the XMPP connection up it's far less RTT/overhead than DoH, if you don't...

  517. moparisthebest

    what you really want to do is DoX over BOSH

  518. jonas’

    moparisthebest, problem is, though, when you need to do DNS lookups, you probably need to do that because you’re reconnecting. You’ll also have to cycle your DoX connection then.

  519. Daniel

    Realistically I'm not going to hold the connection uoen

  520. Daniel

    Realistically I'm not going to hold the connection upen

  521. Daniel

    Especially since most times when I need srv records I just switched networks

  522. moparisthebest

    I think for initial SRV lookup that's right

  523. Daniel

    Or coming back from suspend or whatever

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  526. Daniel

    Are there non-initial srv lookups ml

  527. Daniel

    Are there non-initial srv lookups?

  528. jonas’

    I don’t think so

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  530. Ge0rG

    *cough* 0198 resume *cough*

  531. jonas’

    I’d be surprised if DoX servers would support '198

  532. jonas’

    I mean, DoX servers for public use

  533. moparisthebest

    Daniel, I was about to say "not for a client" but, http upload, ICE, STUN, TURN etc ?

  534. jonas’

    none of that needs SRV

  535. moparisthebest

    but it needs DNS

  536. jonas’

    sure, but you can have that via Tor for TCP connections

  537. jonas’

    no need to do it yourself

  538. Daniel

    It's also questionable if you need stun or turn when connected over tor

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  540. moparisthebest

    well I didn't exactly mean *only* over tor

  541. moparisthebest

    might be nice to have an XMPP client pull a firefox, let you hardcode IP+port to connect to for initial SRV bootstrap, and dns jid for all after-connection lookups, so no standard DNS ever comes from the client

  542. jonas’

    frankly, I don’t ever see a reason to prefer DoX or even DoH for non-browser software

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  544. jonas’

    DoT is good enough

  545. moparisthebest

    extra connections, extra RTT

  546. jonas’

    you also need an extra connection for (initial) DoX

  547. moparisthebest

    just the once though

  548. jonas’

    same for DoT

  549. jonas’

    you can reuse your TLS connection for multiple requests

  550. moparisthebest

    that's only a maybe, in practice they'll disconnect you if you are quiet for any length of time

  551. jonas’

    I expect your DoX proxy to do the same

  552. jonas’

    and keeping the DoX connection alive is stupid, because you’ll need to ping it either way to keep it alive for NATs and stuff

  553. jonas’

    it’s expensive

  554. jonas’

    when you don’t need it, tear it down

  555. moparisthebest

    no? once you are connected you only keep the connection open to your server, then just exchange messages between dox jid and you

  556. jonas’

    ah, so you’re going to use your real JID to ask the DoX service?

  557. jonas’

    after you just asked for the SRV record?

  558. jonas’

    essentially de-anonymizing your initial request?

  559. moparisthebest

    I agree DoX doesn't have an advantage over DoH or DoT for initial SRV lookup

  560. jonas’

    I’m not convinced that associating your real JID with DNS lookups is a good idea

  561. moparisthebest

    JID, IP, what's the difference

  562. moparisthebest

    nothing says you are asking the same one either

  563. jonas’

    a huge when we’re talking about Tor

  564. pep.

    moparisthebest, "pull a firefox" :P

  565. jonas’

    moparisthebest, a JID is a stable identifier, an IP is not.

  566. jonas’

    if you’re a government or ISP, sure, you can do a lot with an IP

  567. moparisthebest

    eh, both those are shaky

  568. moparisthebest

    IP can be, JID may not be

  569. jonas’

    a JID is, period. Unless we’re talking about SASL ANONYMOUS, which will cut your connection after inactivity just like a DoT resolver will, to conserve resources

  570. moparisthebest

    maybe, maybe not

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  572. moparisthebest

    I'm not convinced something@something.onion is an identifier you can tie back to an individual like an IP could be

  573. jonas’

    that’s assuming you’re connecting to an onion service. which will not be able to federate with lots of servers.

  574. moparisthebest

    we could also define something like "server de-identifying DoX IQs" or so, ie modify from=jid@domain to from=domain then put it back on reply

  575. jonas’

    ah, I want to write a generic IQ proxy XEP either way

  576. moparisthebest

    yea, I'd like to fix that (many servers not federating with .onion)

  577. jonas’

    in context of XEP-0433

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  581. Ge0rG

    jonas’: you could write a generic XMPP proxy XEP.

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  583. Ge0rG

    why only do IQs if you can do... ANYTHING!

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  585. moparisthebest

    well, depending on the payload the other end probably cares about who sent it

  586. moparisthebest

    DoX should not, however

  587. moparisthebest

    I don't think a server should care about catering to evil DoX backends that send different answers to different JIDs :)

  588. jonas’

    Ge0rG, because the way I envision it it would be kind of like stateless NAT, so you need some context attached to the conversation. That means that message replies wouldn’t necessarily be routable

  589. moparisthebest

    but could be nice and make it opt-in for clients anyhow

  590. jonas’

    presence being even worse

  591. jonas’

    kind of like a generalised and reversed mod_client_proxy

  592. jonas’

    also standardised ;)

  593. Ge0rG

    just use sha256(real_jid)@proxy-component. Problem solved.

  594. jonas’

    how to revert that?

  595. jonas’

    (when the reply comes in)

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  597. moparisthebest

    jonas’, ah, so like a client can specifically ask the component to "proxy this IQ to this JID for me please?" that would be ideal

  598. moparisthebest

    yea, if you do sha256(real_jid) you still have to keep a reverse lookup table, so it'd be better to use something the other end has no chance of reversing, a randomly generated per-account string or so

  599. jonas’

    you send your IQ to the component and the component sends it to the receiver

  600. Ge0rG

    jonas’: keep an eternal map ;)

  601. Ge0rG

    jonas’: how do you route the IQ reply? Or will you just keep all in-flight IQs in memory forever?

  602. Ge0rG

    Because, that never caused trouble in the past, you know.

  603. jonas’

    Ge0rG, in mod_client_proxy it’s easy, it’s 100% stateless. but it’s not anonymizing

  604. moparisthebest

    if each client has a stable identifier@proxy-component ^

  605. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yeah, you can't have both.

  606. moparisthebest

    but otherwise, hairy I guess

  607. jonas’

    in case of the proxy protocol, the only way would be to keep a temporary map (maybe generate a random ID per request?) and map based on that. and when the peer doesn’t reply in time, synthesize a specific timeout error

  608. jonas’

    moparisthebest, no need for identifier@, you can put it all in the IQ @id

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  612. moparisthebest

    well it's 1 or the other right? identifier@ and stateless, or not and you have to keep track of IQs ?

  613. jonas’

    you can’t have it fully stateless

  614. jonas’

    (and nothing stops you from base64-encoding some kind of struct in the IQ @id and decoding that when translating back

  615. moparisthebest

    if bob@server 's proxy id was some-identifier-tied-to-bob@proxy-component, then it'd be fully stateless right?

  616. jonas’

    ahh, but that’d require registration with the proxy component

  617. jonas’

    and I’d rather not have people have persistent addresses behind the proxy

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  619. jonas’

    though that’s actually an implementation detail

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  621. moparisthebest

    yea, servers could rotate whenever

  622. jonas’

    the key part is specifying the protocol to wrap your IQ and letting the proxy handle it. how the proxy does the translation (and whether it, for example, requires registration or affiliation with a server or not) is up to the impl

  623. moparisthebest

    like it'd probably be sane to rotate every 24 hours but keep the last one active for incoming, or something

  624. jonas’

    there is no incoming after the IQ reply came back

  625. moparisthebest

    yea, but if you didn't want to track anything

  626. jonas’

    you have to track something at least

  627. moparisthebest

    tracking each IQ seems harder than just having a list of each JID that used you in the last 24 hours

  628. jonas’


  629. jonas’

    implementation details!

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  631. moparisthebest

    yep I think so... as long as the spec doesn't push you into a corner, sounds like it'd be fine though

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  638. moparisthebest

    rion, "joking about deprecating handshakes for tcp" my synpathies for anyone using it afterwards

  639. jonas’


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  669. Alex

    hey guys, its meeting time. Are you ready?

  670. Ge0rG

    huh what?

  671. Alex


  672. Alex

    approving our voting results

  673. Guus


  674. Daniel

    I'm here

  675. Alex


  676. Alex bangs the gavel

  677. pep.


  678. pep.

    Just while Macron is speaking on TV!

  679. jonas’


  680. jonas’

    totally missed it, good thing I voted already ;)

  681. Alex

    here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-03-12

  682. jonas’

    dinner time now, won’t attend actively

  683. Alex

    pep.‎, cannot compete with your presedent ;-)

  684. pep.

    It's fine, probably bs as usual :)

  685. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

  686. Ge0rG

    looks like I voted already as well. Phew!

  687. Alex

    as you can see 29 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum

  688. Zash just voted

  689. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

  690. Alex

    new and returnign members, you can see the Wiki page for that here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2020

  691. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting

  692. Alex

    memberbot is still online, so if someone has not voted yet this is your time now ;-)

  693. Alex

    zash, got your vote 3 minutes ago

  694. Zash


  695. Alex

    anyone else?

  696. Alex

    otherwise I will shuitdown the bot and work on the results

  697. pep.

    Alex, one sec, linkmauve is on it :P

  698. pep.

    Link Mauve, ^

  699. Link Mauve

    Yes, I’m on it.

  700. Alex

    no rush, nobody is waiting for you 😂

  701. Alex

    got your vote

  702. Alex

    more coming?

  703. Link Mauve

    There, I’m done!

  704. Alex


  705. Alex

    will shut down then and start counting

  706. Link Mauve

    Adding to memberbot’s TODO: accept LMC.

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  708. Alex

    okay, I am ready

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  711. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  712. Alex

    when you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-03-12#Announcement_of_Voting_Results you can see the results

  713. Alex

    all applicants and reappliers were accepted

  714. Alex

    congrats to everyone

  715. pep.

    Thanks Alex

  716. Alex

    5) Any Other Business?

  717. pep.

    And welcome emus :)

  718. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  719. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  720. pep.


  721. Link Mauve

    Thanks Alex, and congrats everyone. :)

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  723. Guus


  724. Guus


  725. Alex bangs the gavel

  726. Guus

    Thanks Alex!

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  728. emus

    \o/ Hello, and thank you!

  729. rion has left

  730. Link Mauve

    emus, welcome to the XSF!

  731. Neustradamus


  732. emus

    Link Mauve: Thanks 👋🎉

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  734. jonas’

    welcome emus

  735. jonas’

    all current council members got at least -2

  736. rion has joined

  737. emus

    jonas’: Hello hello, thanks

  738. Daniel

    > all current council members got at least -2 We are too spammy with our Last calls 😂

  739. jonas’

    that’s clearly the editors fault

  740. jonas’

    though all the editors also got at least -2

  741. emus

    Daniel: Better dont read the next Newsletter 😅

  742. Wojtek has left

  743. vanitasvitae

    Welcome Emus!

  744. marc has left

  745. emus

    😊 Muchas gracias!

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  760. pep.

    I guess so, don't remember exactly how that works

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  763. pep.

    ah fail pm

  764. pep.

    Sorry but that Conversations "feature" kills every single time

  765. pep.

    Sorry but that Conversations "feature" kills me every single time

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  769. Ge0rG


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  817. pep.

    https://act.eff.org/action/protect-our-speech-and-security-online-reject-the-graham-blumenthal-bill For US citizens. And for the rest, please send that to your friends in the US.

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  828. lovetox

    i think they gonna have other problems coming next week :/

  829. marc has joined

  830. emus

    lovetox: are talking about corona or what did I miss?

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  838. lovetox


  839. lovetox

    i think it will hit the US pretty hard

  840. lovetox

    i think their health care system is in really bad shape to handle this

  841. emus

    Yes, just thought the same

  842. Daniel

    Good thing they have good leadership

  843. pep.

    lovetox, and bernie is less and less likely to win. We're going to laugh when we see their health care system fail to handle all of this..

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