XSF Discussion - 2020-03-24

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  93. jonas’ 07:10:43 pollo> TIL jitsi meet is mainly an XMPP frontend 07:11:01 pollo> I find it very amusing, since I felt XMPP was kinda dead
  94. jonas’ am I seeing this correctly that we don’t actually have a spec for multi-user A/V calls?
  95. jonas’ if so: does anyone have contacts to the Jitsi Meet folks so that we can get them to spec their stuff?
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  97. Link Mauve jonas’, Jitsi people wrote CoLiBri, which is what Jitsi Meet is using, AFAIK.
  98. jonas’ Link Mauve, where is that?
  99. Link Mauve In some XEP I don’t remember the number.
  100. jonas’ ah!
  101. jonas’ 340
  102. Link Mauve It describes jicofo.
  103. Link Mauve As well as COIN.
  104. jonas’ that’s it, yes
  105. jonas’ thanks
  106. Link Mauve Another XEP.
  107. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0340.html
  108. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0298.html
  109. Link Mauve Those.
  110. jonas’ thanks
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  112. Link Mauve I don’t know how different the implementation is nowadays, though.
  113. Link Mauve It may have significantly diverged, or not.
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  118. MattJ I believe it has diverged a lot and there was not much interest in fixing that
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  136. flow that is my understanding too
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  191. flow Is muc 333 supposed to be alone in an unsubscribe message?
  192. flow https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#service-error-kick
  193. flow I have somehow the feeling that this was the intention, to keep backwards compatiblity
  194. flow but then I saw this: https://github.com/igniterealtime/Smack/pull/374
  195. flow xep45 is not really clear on that (beside the examples showing 333 never alone)
  196. flow jonas’, ^
  197. Zash s/unsubscribe/unavailable/ ?
  198. jonas’ flow, hmmmm?
  199. jonas’ flow, 333 is an additional code which specifies which type of kick it was, using it alone doesn’t make much sense IMO.
  200. MattJ Agreed
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  208. flow Zash, correct
  209. flow jonas’, but is it required to never appear allone?
  210. flow IMHO, if so, xep45 should spell it out explicitly
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  215. jonas’ I wouldn’t say it’s required
  216. jonas’ I would say currently there is no specified case where that happens
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  222. flow well allowing 333 standalone has backwards compatiblity issues
  223. flow Zash, MattJ, since the bug report come from the jitsi folks, I'd assumed that it was potentially prosody producing those unavailable presence stanzas. Is this the case?
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  225. MattJ Ah, now I remember
  226. MattJ this whole discussion
  227. MattJ I'm confused, what's the bug on the Smack side?
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  229. MattJ Not treating unavailable presence as "client left the room"?
  230. MattJ status codes are colour on top of that
  231. jonas’ yup, 333 without anything should be treated as "client left normally" by any entity not knowing 333
  232. MattJ There was some discussion about whether 333-type leaves should be parts or kicks
  233. MattJ The argument is that they are kicks because the user didn't request to leave
  234. flow I totally aggree that status codes are additional metainformatino and that unvaialble presence means that a participant has left the room
  235. Zash I distinctly remember some client having a bug with multiple status codes
  236. MattJ While the inverse argument is that it's not a moderation thing, and kicks are noisy
  237. flow The question is about allowing 333 standalone in an unavailble presence
  238. flow I think allowing 333 standalone causes backwards compatiblity issues and hence should not be allowed
  239. MattJ What problems does it cause?
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  241. flow MattJ, basically smack assumes that if the unavailable presence contains any status codes, one of those codes it at least one that has been there from the very beginning of xep45
  242. jonas’ flow, I think that assumption is flawed
  243. MattJ I think that's definitely a flawed assumption
  244. jonas’ status codes are a registry
  245. flow jonas’, potentially, but I could imagine that other libs do the same
  246. jonas’ then other libs are also flawed
  247. MattJ Well so far we haven't found any
  248. MattJ Also this is why the status codes likely aim to follow the HTTP style of buckets
  249. flow I am also not convinced that this assumption is really flawed
  250. MattJ all the 3xx status codes are about an occupant leaving, afaik
  251. flow I mean I see your point
  252. MattJ This would have been done initially to make status codes extensible
  253. MattJ Not that I see much point in this case
  254. flow but adding additional causes that do not refine existing causes seems like a bad approach
  255. jonas’ flow, unless you can find a piece of text in XEP 0045 which says that on an unavailable presence, there must be no status code or one of these X status codes, your assumption is flawed
  256. flow and in this case 333 seems to simply refine an existing cause ('kicked')
  257. MattJ Actually no, in this stanza before Prosody added 333 there would have been no status codes
  258. jonas’ flow, a future status code could be refining the voluntary client leave, for example "leaving forever not going to come back"
  259. MattJ So we went from nothing -> 333
  260. jonas’ the library still needs to be able to deal with that
  261. MattJ 333 was just additional colour for the leave
  262. MattJ (iirc trunk nightly builds may have used a kick status code for a while, before 333 was introduced - but I don't think that was ever in a released version)
  263. flow Either way, it should be explicitly spelled out in xep45 what clients to can expect
  264. jonas’ flow, I think it’s already pretty clear
  265. jonas’ there are some requirements about status codes which MUST be present
  266. jonas’ but there’s no wording on which are not going to be present
  267. jonas’ so you’ve got to deal with that
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  269. jonas’ (just like there’s no wording on the order of status codes, you need to deal with any ordre)
  270. flow I would at least suggest to add an example where 333 appears standalone
  271. jonas’ why?
  272. jonas’ there’s currently no defined use-case for that
  273. flow then why does prosody do it?
  274. MattJ https://issues.prosody.im/939#comment-14
  275. flow MattJ, thanks for the link :)
  276. MattJ (and discussion before/after)
  277. jonas’ fun
  278. jonas’ MattJ, make a PR against '45 then, because 45 clearly states that there MUST be 307 at this time
  279. MattJ So I see, that's news to me
  280. jonas’ only in the GC1.0 case though wtf
  281. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#enter-gc
  282. MattJ Basically the fallback behaviour we want (for UX reasons) is a normal leave, not a kick
  283. jonas’ weird
  284. MattJ because kicks were making users "wtf"
  285. jonas’ here it’s not clearly spelt out: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#service-error-kick
  286. flow yep, users don't like to get kicked
  287. jonas’ so it can go either way
  288. jonas’ MattJ, I suggest someone makes a PR which states that and fixes the wording then.
  289. flow jonas’, for clarification: states what?
  290. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#service-error-kick shouldn’t use 307
  291. jonas’ flow, that https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#service-error-kick shouldn’t use 307
  292. Ge0rG something something somebody suggested a specific error condition just for that
  293. flow Ge0rG, what is it, that you want to tell us?
  294. Ge0rG flow: IIRC jonas’ had interesting ideas for a new error condition that's neither kicked nor access denied, in the context of 0410
  295. jonas’ Ge0rG, irrelevant, because MUC leaves don’t have stanza errors
  296. Ge0rG Also we abandoned that idea because nobody had time to pursuit it
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  345. moparisthebest so much for the military using XMPP https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/18/army_adopts_whatsapp_orders_coronavirus
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  348. Zash There's more than one army
  349. Zash and more than one branch of military
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  354. mbt hi all, im trying to develop an messaging app with React-Native. I have Prosody server installed and i can send/recieve messages but cant complete in-band registration. i couldnt find a package for that. Does anyone know how to do it in RN environment? Thanks
  355. Ge0rG mbt: are you using xmpp.js?
  356. Ge0rG looks like it's a lonstanding wish... https://github.com/xmppjs/xmpp.js/issues/783
  357. mbt yes i use xmpp.js for connection and messaging, in those topics 'https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0389.html' is offered but i cant understand how can do these instructions
  358. Zash XEP-0389 is not really ready yet
  359. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html is what you would use
  360. mbt okay thanks, i can send iq stanzas with xmpp.js. Then should i use 0077s iq examples?
  361. Zash If you can do that before you're fully connected, then I guess that'll work
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  363. mbt okay then i will try this thank you very much Zash, Ge0rG
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  421. Jeybe Just disovered Kontalk. Somebody knows if they federate?
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  423. moparisthebest last I looked they do yes
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  429. Daniel But you have to manually hash the phone number to talk to someone on kontalk. With Quicksy.im you can just write +12345...@quicksy.im #shamelessPlug
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  431. moparisthebest quicksy is ever so slightly easier to un-hash into a plain phone number though :)
  432. Zash JIDs like sha1(phone number)@beta.kontalk.net from what I could find on some wiki
  433. MattJ But SHA1 is broken! ;)
  434. moparisthebest yep, where phone number is +12223334455
  435. moparisthebest https://www.moparisthebest.com/phonehash/ this doesn't work anymore because I no longer have 500gb to spare but it "unhashed" kontalk numbers instantly
  436. MattJ 500GB? I feel like you could get away with far less than that
  437. Zash Rainbow tables aren't known for being small
  438. MattJ I guess
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  441. Zash I guess you could cheat and only store the shortest prefix or something
  442. Daniel Iirc it wasn't a rainbow table but just all hashes
  443. Zash Have I misunderstood what a rainbow table is?
  444. Daniel I always wanted to make it a nice weekend project to learn how to build rainbow tables and actual have all possible numbers
  445. Daniel Rainbow tables only store a subset of hashes
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  457. moparisthebest rainbow tables could maybe be smaller, but still are computationally expensive
  458. moparisthebest 500gb was all numbers, stored as 5 byte integers, sorted by hash, so I could binary search them and do at most like 5 sha1 operations to find any number instantly
  459. jonas’ ah, I knew it was something clever
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  461. moparisthebest all the technical details here https://github.com/moparisthebest/phonehash it's actually not clear to me if rainbow tables would actually be smaller or not
  462. Ge0rG moparisthebest: why didn't you upload the 500GB to github? :D
  463. moparisthebest I don't think it supports that haha, but the code to generate it is there
  464. Ge0rG In Germany, phone numbers are 12 or sometimes even 13 digits.
  465. moparisthebest yep, doesn't support any of that nonsense either :)
  466. moparisthebest I guess it'd still fit in a 5 byte number but you'd need significantly more than 500gb to store them all, unless you just went for a subset
  467. moparisthebest don't really feel like doing the math to figure out how much data that is right now :)
  468. Ge0rG the fixed prefix is +49, leaving 10 or 11 useful digits
  469. Ge0rG you'd have to cut the prefix off or go for six-byte indexes
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  472. moparisthebest ah ok that changes things, I'm storing 11 digits there, so you'd just do the same except prefix +49 instead of +
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  497. rion looks like there is something wrong with s2s with this new xmpp.org. I checked two Russian servers with quite old ejabberds. none of them allowed me to connect here.
  498. Zash How old is old?
  499. rion 3.2
  500. rion and 2.1.13
  501. rion oh. it's not s2s. I see myself in the web logs joining here
  502. rion hm or s2s.. well muc sent me nothing back
  503. rion but obviously received and handled my presence
  504. Zash So the connectivity problem is in the other direction
  505. moparisthebest won't connect to TLS 1.0 or something?
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  508. rion ok jabber.ru admin say s2s is connected. there is something upper-level
  509. Zash I vaguely recall there being all sorts of s2s issues between prosody and ejabberd back in those dark ages
  510. Zash MattJ: poke? ↑
  511. Zash I don't have access to the new box
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  514. MattJ Uh, can get you access in a bit
  515. MattJ No idea what would cause this
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  518. Zash rion: Did this that work before the crash?
  519. rion yep
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  521. Zash All I can think of is some kind of network or DNS issue on the new box
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  567. flow hmm Dele also reported that his openfire (?) instances could no longer connect to xmpp.org
  568. flow I was speculating TLS
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  570. Zash No TLS 1.2?
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  578. Zash I'd say 'try xmpp.net' but that's not up yet
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  580. MattJ Ah, it's Debian buster so it could indeed be TLS
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  587. Ge0rG Old software still attempting SSL 3?
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  590. pep. Who doesn't do TLS1.3 yet? /s
  591. Zash If I'm guessing their domain correctly then that's not the problem. I get a Dialback error instead.
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  631. rion does s2s uses 2 connections between 2 particular servers?
  632. jonas’ sometimes
  633. Kev Usually at least 2, yes.
  634. jonas’ (most of the time actually)
  635. Ge0rG Yes, for hysterical raisins
  636. jonas’ there’s s2s bidirectional mode, but it’s not too widely deployed
  637. rion so usually 2 uno-directional
  638. rion jabber.ru guys looking into the problem too.
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  641. rion [23:15:45] *** rion2 заходит как участник [23:15:46] *** rion2 удален из комнаты по техническим причинам that was me from jabber.ru
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  645. Zash what looks like this here? 18:14:44 ---> rion joined the room 18:14:45 <--- rion has left the room due to an error (Kicked: remote server not found) 18:15:25 ---> rion joined the room 18:15:26 <--- rion has left the room due to an error (Kicked: remote server not found)
  646. Zash Oh, rion_2_?
  647. rion yep
  648. Zash s2s with jabber.ru seems to work everywhere else I try
  649. rion Psi writes: removed by technical reasons. I don't remember what's this in xml log
  650. Zash Pretty sure it's the 333 code discussed earlier
  651. Zash It's what Prosody uses if you send an error to the room, which is what it sees if the s2s connection in the other direction fails
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  673. MattJ rion, Zash: from the log: Mar 24 20:47:28 server_epoll debug TLS handshake error on FD 231 (, 5269,, 33976): dh key too small
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  675. jonas’ ah, yeah, jabber.ru
  676. pep. What was the result of the discussion around Inbox again at Summit. The "ordered list" of tabs doesn't seem mentioned in the minutes, I assume that's supposed to be something separate
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  687. oxpa took me awhile how to figure this out. I'm curious why p256 is 'short' though
  688. Zash If you get that message then it's not using ECDHE
  689. Zash That's plain old DHE
  690. Zash probably with 1024bit parameters
  691. oxpa :~$ openssl s_client -connect jabber.ru:5269 -starttls xmpp-server 2>/dev/null | grep Temp Server Temp Key: ECDH, P-256, 256 bits
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  694. oxpa Or may be it's because it's not ephemeral though
  695. oxpa not sure how to force that through s_client to check
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  698. Zash ~$ wrapsrv _xmpp-server._tcp.jabber.ru openssl s_client -connect %h:%p -starttls xmpp-server -cipher 'HIGH+kEDH:HIGH+kEECDH:HIGH:!PSK:!SRP:!3DES:!aNULL' this would be closer to what prosody 0.11 does
  699. Zash Server Temp Key: DH, 4096 bits
  700. Zash Odd. Recently changed?
  701. oxpa i tend to answer 'no' in a most sarcastic way, usually. But I guess sarcasm is difficult to transfer through xmpp. So, yes, minutes ago
  702. werdan has left
  703. oxpa but what's curious is that DHE is used only when I try a longer EC curve
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  705. oxpa that's why I was asking about P256
  706. oxpa openssl s_client -connect jabber.ru:5269 -starttls xmpp-server -curves secp384r1 this is a curve my openssl doesn't yet support so this results in using DH instead of ECDH
  707. Zash Oh no, I didn't want to be reminded of how OpenSSl handles curve
  708. oxpa /sigh
  709. oxpa but I have to change dh param default length due to this handling >_<
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  756. Neustradamus pep.: Jabber.org has this problem since several years ;)
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