XSF Discussion - 2020-03-25

  1. xelxebar has joined
  2. Alex has left
  3. Vaulor has left
  4. Vaulor has joined
  5. Daniel has left
  6. arc has left
  7. arc has joined
  8. karoshi has left
  9. mukt2 has joined
  10. mukt2 has left
  11. pdurbin has joined
  12. Daniel has joined
  13. pdurbin has left
  14. paul has left
  15. Zash has left
  16. Daniel has left
  17. Zash has joined
  18. Daniel has joined
  19. Daniel has left
  20. Daniel has joined
  21. emus has left
  22. oxpa has left
  23. Zash has left
  24. Zash has joined
  25. مرقاب has joined
  26. Daniel has left
  27. مرقاب has left
  28. Daniel has joined
  29. arc has left
  30. arc has joined
  31. pdurbin has joined
  32. Daniel has left
  33. arc has left
  34. arc has joined
  35. Daniel has joined
  36. Neustradamus has left
  37. Daniel has left
  38. lskdjf has left
  39. Daniel has joined
  40. Neustradamus has joined
  41. Roberto has left
  42. Roberto has joined
  43. Yagiza has joined
  44. Daniel has left
  45. Daniel has joined
  46. Daniel has left
  47. Daniel has joined
  48. Daniel has left
  49. APach has left
  50. Nekit has joined
  51. Daniel has joined
  52. adiaholic_ has left
  53. adiaholic_ has joined
  54. adiaholic_ has left
  55. adiaholic_ has joined
  56. andy has joined
  57. rion has joined
  58. DebXWoody has joined
  59. Daniel has left
  60. LNJ has left
  61. Daniel has joined
  62. Daniel has left
  63. Daniel has joined
  64. Daniel has left
  65. Daniel has joined
  66. Tobias has joined
  67. DebXWoody has left
  68. andy has left
  69. andy has joined
  70. DebXWoody has joined
  71. alexis has left
  72. alexis has joined
  73. aj has joined
  74. adiaholic_ has left
  75. adiaholic_ has joined
  76. DebXWoody has left
  77. DebXWoody has joined
  78. Daniel has left
  79. Daniel has joined
  80. mukt2 has joined
  81. arc has left
  82. arc has joined
  83. paul has joined
  84. paul has left
  85. arc has left
  86. arc has joined
  87. arc has left
  88. arc has joined
  89. arc has left
  90. mukt2 has left
  91. arc has joined
  92. lorddavidiii has joined
  93. eevvoor has joined
  94. Daniel has left
  95. paul has joined
  96. Daniel has joined
  97. Daniel has left
  98. paul has left
  99. paul has joined
  100. Daniel has joined
  101. mukt2 has joined
  102. aj has left
  103. mukt2 has left
  104. arc has left
  105. arc has joined
  106. marc has joined
  107. Daniel has left
  108. Daniel has joined
  109. waqas has left
  110. werdan has joined
  111. Jeybe has joined
  112. Jeybe has left
  113. Jeybe has joined
  114. werdan has left
  115. Jeybe has left
  116. Jeybe has joined
  117. karoshi has joined
  118. Jeybe has left
  119. Jeybe has joined
  120. Jeybe has left
  121. Jeybe has joined
  122. Jeybe has left
  123. Jeybe has joined
  124. lovetox has left
  125. govanify has left
  126. Jeybe has left
  127. Jeybe has joined
  128. govanify has joined
  129. rion has left
  130. Jeybe has left
  131. Jeybe has joined
  132. Guus has joined
  133. robertooo has joined
  134. lovetox has joined
  135. j.r has left
  136. Steve Kille has left
  137. Jeybe has left
  138. Jeybe has joined
  139. LNJ has joined
  140. Jeybe has left
  141. Jeybe has joined
  142. Marc has joined
  143. Steve Kille has joined
  144. goffi has joined
  145. j.r has joined
  146. Jeybe has left
  147. Jeybe has joined
  148. Alex has joined
  149. emus has joined
  150. Daniel has left
  151. Daniel has joined
  152. j.r has left
  153. j.r has joined
  154. Jeybe has left
  155. Jeybe has joined
  156. Daniel has left
  157. Daniel has joined
  158. werdan has joined
  159. Jeybe has left
  160. Jeybe has joined
  161. Jeybe has left
  162. Jeybe has joined
  163. werdan has left
  164. Jeybe has left
  165. werdan has joined
  166. Jeybe has joined
  167. werdan has left
  168. Jeybe has left
  169. Jeybe has joined
  170. rion has joined
  171. emus has left
  172. emus has joined
  173. Jeybe has left
  174. debacle has joined
  175. Jeybe has joined
  176. marc has left
  177. marc has joined
  178. Yagiza has left
  179. Yagiza has joined
  180. Vaulor has left
  181. Vaulor has joined
  182. sonny has joined
  183. oxpa has joined
  184. Jeybe has left
  185. Jeybe has joined
  186. edhelas has left
  187. edhelas has joined
  188. Jeybe has left
  189. Jeybe has joined
  190. Jeybe has left
  191. Jeybe has joined
  192. Jeybe has left
  193. Jeybe has joined
  194. oxpa guys, any chances xmpp.jp admins are here? I have troubles reaching conference.xmpp.jp from jabber.ru and find out what the problem is.
  195. oxpa or may be you can ask xmpp.jp guys contact me through twitter or directly at oxpa@jabber.ru?
  196. eevvoor has left
  197. Jeybe has left
  198. Jeybe has joined
  199. lskdjf has joined
  200. edhelas has left
  201. edhelas has joined
  202. Shell has joined
  203. Jeybe has left
  204. Jeybe has joined
  205. Jeybe has left
  206. Jeybe has joined
  207. Daniel has left
  208. Jeybe has left
  209. Jeybe has joined
  210. Daniel has joined
  211. Ge0rG oxpa: Contact Info> admin: mailto:support@xmpp.jp https://www.xmpp.jp/contact abuse: mailto:support@xmpp.jp https://www.xmpp.jp/contact support: mailto:support@xmpp.jp https://www.xmpp.jp/contact
  212. Ge0rG oxpa: if you have trouble contacting them via s2s, they will have trouble contacting you as well ;)
  213. oxpa no-no, s2s works per se. I can contact any user@xmpp.jp. Only conferences 'behave'
  214. Jeybe has left
  215. Jeybe has joined
  216. oxpa also, i wrote aletter to support@xmpp.jp - no luch
  217. oxpa also, i wrote aletter to support@xmpp.jp - no luck
  218. Alex has left
  219. Jeybe has left
  220. Jeybe has joined
  221. Jeybe has left
  222. Jeybe has joined
  223. xsf has left
  224. xsf has joined
  225. Jeybe has left
  226. Jeybe has joined
  227. Jeybe has left
  228. Jeybe has joined
  229. APach has joined
  230. Jeybe has left
  231. Jeybe has joined
  232. eta has left
  233. eta has joined
  234. Jeybe has left
  235. Jeybe has joined
  236. pdurbin has left
  237. APach has left
  238. APach has joined
  239. adiaholic_ has left
  240. adiaholic_ has joined
  241. Jeybe has left
  242. Jeybe has joined
  243. Jeybe has left
  244. Jeybe has joined
  245. eevvoor has joined
  246. adiaholic_ has left
  247. adiaholic_ has joined
  248. marc has left
  249. marc has joined
  250. eevvoor has left
  251. eevvoor has joined
  252. Jeybe has left
  253. Jeybe has joined
  254. Jeybe has left
  255. Jeybe has joined
  256. Jeybe has left
  257. Jeybe has joined
  258. Jeybe has left
  259. Jeybe has joined
  260. Jeybe has left
  261. Jeybe has joined
  262. Daniel has left
  263. Daniel has joined
  264. moparisthebest I hate asking this... does anyone know of a facebook messenger transport? I of course tried searching but can only find articles about facebook turning off XMPP support years ago
  265. mukt2 has joined
  266. pep. nothing in libpurple?
  267. adiaholic_ has left
  268. adiaholic_ has joined
  269. Ge0rG Last time I used spectrum2
  270. moparisthebest ah may be https://github.com/dequis/purple-facebook/wiki "Protocol: Facebook (NOT Facebook (XMPP))"
  271. moparisthebest that was another problem, every time I found some integration, it was XMPP based, which no longer works :'( terrible
  272. moparisthebest facebook has a newish "kids messenger" app that uses the parent's facebook for access control, and wife keeps getting invites for my kids, meanwhile I haven't had much traction in "just have them install Conversations instead" department :'(
  273. Zash Snikket?
  274. moparisthebest 3.
  275. Jeybe has left
  276. Jeybe has joined
  277. moparisthebest oops, well it's main features appear to be "stickers" and "video chat with stupid overlays" with text chat way down on the list, not sure if XMPP can compete in those departments
  278. Zash Of course not
  279. mukt2 has left
  280. Jeybe has left
  281. Jeybe has joined
  282. Alex has joined
  283. moparisthebest mainly XMPP is lacking in the "creepy spying and data collection by facebook" department though
  284. Daniel has left
  285. pdurbin has joined
  286. Daniel has joined
  287. Shell has left
  288. Jeybe has left
  289. Jeybe has joined
  290. andrey.g has left
  291. andrey.g has joined
  292. pdurbin has left
  293. adiaholic_ has left
  294. adiaholic_ has joined
  295. Daniel has left
  296. Daniel has joined
  297. Jeybe has left
  298. Jeybe has joined
  299. Daniel has left
  300. Jeybe has left
  301. Jeybe has joined
  302. Daniel has joined
  303. Daniel has left
  304. Daniel has joined
  305. remko has joined
  306. remko has left
  307. remko has joined
  308. Jeybe has left
  309. remko has left
  310. Jeybe has joined
  311. goffi has left
  312. goffi has joined
  313. Wojtek has joined
  314. arc has left
  315. arc has joined
  316. arc has left
  317. arc has joined
  318. Jeybe has left
  319. Jeybe has joined
  320. murabito has joined
  321. Daniel has left
  322. arc has left
  323. arc has joined
  324. Daniel has joined
  325. arc has left
  326. arc has joined
  327. Jeybe has left
  328. Jeybe has joined
  329. mimi89999 has left
  330. mimi89999 has joined
  331. remko has joined
  332. Jeybe has left
  333. Shell has joined
  334. Jeybe has joined
  335. Jeybe has left
  336. Jeybe has joined
  337. pdurbin has joined
  338. Jeybe has left
  339. Jeybe has joined
  340. Jeybe has left
  341. Jeybe has joined
  342. Jeybe has left
  343. Jeybe has joined
  344. pdurbin has left
  345. Jeybe has left
  346. Jeybe has joined
  347. Jeybe has left
  348. Jeybe has joined
  349. Jeybe has left
  350. Jeybe has joined
  351. Jeybe has left
  352. Jeybe has joined
  353. Guus has left
  354. Daniel When I configure something via data forms. For example a muc or a pubsub node. And I send an incomplete data form. Will the missing fields be left untouched or configured to the forms default?
  355. MattJ Guess
  356. MattJ and whatever you guess, we can document
  357. MattJ ;)
  358. Wojtek has left
  359. MattJ I'm not aware of any text around this, I think it probably depends on context, but I wouldn't rely on it being the same across implementations
  360. MattJ The "depends on context" thing comes from the fact that I believe XEP-0004 primarily grew out of a protocol that was designed for presentation
  361. MattJ rather than machine-to-machine configuration
  362. arc has left
  363. arc has joined
  364. stpeter has joined
  365. stpeter has left
  366. Max has left
  367. larma apropos data forms: In XEP-0068 it says that "If the FORM_TYPE field is not type="hidden", it does not have the special meaning defined herein." and "If the FORM_TYPE field is not hidden, it MUST be ignored as a context indicator.". In XEP-0004 it says that "For data forms of type "submit", inclusion of the 'type' attribute is OPTIONAL". So, for data forms of type "submit" it still seems to be required to add the type="hidden" for FORM_TYPE according to XEP-0068, yet most clients seem to not send it and most servers seem to ignore that - and many XEPs also don't do it accordingly in their examples. Should we note in XEP-0068 that specifying type="hidden" is optional in forms of type "submit"?
  368. LNJ has left
  369. LNJ has joined
  370. lovetox on this occassion i want to point to issue 1511 !
  371. lovetox :D
  372. LNJ has left
  373. LNJ has joined
  374. MattJ Ha, I missed that
  375. Max has joined
  376. lovetox Daniel, but how would you come into this situation, do you want to reduce traffic and not requesting the Data Form from the server? rather just send a incomplete one where you know some fields will probably be supported?
  377. Zash 1511 in what repo?
  378. Daniel lovetox: the library I'm using weirdly doesn't have a method to submit a form / and or change only one specific value in a previously downloaded form
  379. Max has left
  380. Zash How about a left-out field preserves the existing value, or the default in case you're creating something.
  381. Zash Now let's discuss (nothing) vs <field/> vs <field><value/></field>
  382. lovetox Zash a issue on your tracker
  383. Zash Ah that
  384. lovetox but since you include a register fields as backup for clients that dont support dataforms, i guess this issue was not discovered until now :)
  385. Zash Isn't this more on-topic in the Prosody roomq
  386. Zash s/q/?/
  387. lovetox oh damn
  388. lovetox i thought i was in the prosody room
  389. lovetox because i saw you and mattj :D
  390. lovetox sorry for the offtopic
  391. LNJ has left
  392. Alex has left
  393. Alex has joined
  394. Jeybe has left
  395. Jeybe has joined
  396. boss47 has joined
  397. arc has left
  398. arc has joined
  399. andrey.g has left
  400. boss47 has left
  401. Max has joined
  402. Guus has joined
  403. Max has left
  404. remko has left
  405. remko has joined
  406. LNJ has joined
  407. Max has joined
  408. Jeybe has left
  409. Jeybe has joined
  410. adiaholic_ has left
  411. adiaholic_ has joined
  412. mukt2 has joined
  413. Wojtek has joined
  414. Jeybe has left
  415. Jeybe has joined
  416. Steve Kille has left
  417. alexis has left
  418. remko has left
  419. krauq has left
  420. arc has left
  421. arc has joined
  422. Guus has left
  423. arc has left
  424. krauq has joined
  425. arc has joined
  426. debacle has left
  427. Wojtek has left
  428. Max has left
  429. werdan has joined
  430. Wojtek has joined
  431. Jeybe has left
  432. Jeybe has joined
  433. Jeybe has left
  434. Jeybe has joined
  435. Steve Kille has joined
  436. Max has joined
  437. eevvoor has left
  438. Max has left
  439. Max has joined
  440. Daniel has left
  441. Daniel has joined
  442. remko has joined
  443. Jeybe has left
  444. Jeybe has joined
  445. Jeybe has left
  446. Jeybe has joined
  447. Yagiza has left
  448. Jeybe has left
  449. Jeybe has joined
  450. emus has left
  451. emus has joined
  452. Jeybe has left
  453. Jeybe has joined
  454. remko has left
  455. adiaholic_ has left
  456. adiaholic_ has joined
  457. Jeybe has left
  458. Jeybe has joined
  459. Jeybe has left
  460. Jeybe has joined
  461. Guus has joined
  462. flow larma, I'd love to discuss this but failed to follow the question
  463. flow what in xep68 makes type=hidden required in submit?
  464. larma 0068 says that FORM_TYPE does not have any meaning and MUST be ignored as a context indicator if it's not type=hidden. Thus when submitting a form, adding FORM_TYPE without type=hidden is same as not adding it.
  465. Zash This seems silly somehow
  466. larma agree, my suggestion would be that we state in 0068 that in forms with type='submit' the field type='hidden' is optional
  467. eta has left
  468. larma because that's what we do in practice anyway 😉
  469. eta has joined
  470. larma it's also codified in examples in many XEPs
  471. mukt2 has left
  472. waqas has joined
  473. Guus has left
  474. Zash Fine with me. PR it?
  475. Zash types being optional in type=submit forms is funky in its own ways
  476. flow Tbf I still don't see the issue, but if you agree on it and maybe the PR makes it clear
  477. flow Zash, why?
  478. flow (assuming you are talking about FORM_TYPES?)
  479. Zash Context of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0128.html
  480. Zash Oh those are result
  481. larma great, so it's invalid form according to 0004 😉
  482. Zash flow: Imagine you get a form with a bunch of <field>s, none of which have type set. Fields can have 0, 1 or more <value>s.
  483. Zash > For data forms of type "submit", inclusion of the 'type' attribute is OPTIONAL, since the form-processing entity is assumed to understand the data types associated with forms that it processes.
  484. Zash Sensible
  485. larma yes, it's ok for submit, not for any other forms
  486. Zash So .. no problem then?
  487. flow (ignore me)
  488. larma well, xep 0068 overwrites that part of 0004 by saying that if it doesn't have type='hidden' it shall not be considered as 0068 FORM_TYPE
  489. flow ahh I think now I got what larma means
  490. flow but for submit the FORM_TYPE can be ignored by the receiving entity anyways
  491. Shell has left
  492. flow is that I would assume
  493. larma it might be, yes
  494. larma but then it is also optional to send it
  495. larma and I don't think that's the case in all scenarios either
  496. flow probably true
  497. krauq has left
  498. larma https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#requestvoice
  499. flow the question is if there is a link to the previous form somewhere in the outer shell of the submited form
  500. larma ^ relies on FORM_TYPE = "http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#request" yet doesn't set type='hidden'
  501. Zash larma, but type=submit and the form is supposed to be understood by the receiver
  502. lovetox not sure why the form type can be ignored in a submit form, does this assume all forms are only sent as IQ and the server is able to track what context the form has?
  503. flow Zash, how can the receiver identify the form if he is supposed to ignore FORM_TYPE?
  504. krauq has joined
  505. Zash Tho it makes it tricky if you want to add more kinds of those flows
  506. lovetox what if someone sends me a form as message, and i send the form back as message
  507. lovetox how would the receiver ever get the context of the form?
  508. flow lovetox, in general they can be tracked, but larma just provided an counterexample
  509. lovetox not as message, the receiver would have to place some hidden tracking id into the form
  510. lovetox also a message allows for multiple forms in the same message
  511. Zash Hm, how did we implemente that
  512. flow Zash, probably by looking at FORM_TYPE (and not following the strict interpretation of xep68 § 4.3)
  513. lovetox larma, thats clearly a error in the example
  514. larma flow, to be fair, according to XEP 0045 the only form that you can send by message is the voice request form, still that would be rather crazy code to assume all message[type=normal]+form[type=submit] to a muc bare jid is to be considered a voice request or approval
  515. flow larma, yep
  516. larma and I bet servers do check the FORM_TYPE 😉
  517. Zash Yup, it checks the FORM_TYPE
  518. flow lovetox, besides that there a probably more examples like these in the xep, i'd also assume that this is typical behavior in the wild
  519. flow bbl
  520. larma Zash, and also accept it when not having type='hidden' I assume?
  521. lovetox hm what do you mean, i get many forms i never saw a server send me formtype with type != hidden
  522. lovetox that would obviously result in the client showing this field to the user
  523. lovetox because its not hidden
  524. lovetox really i impl forms since years and we have many workflows with forms, and this never ever happend even once
  525. lovetox so not buying that argument that people dont set the type in the wild
  526. Zash larma: Yeah it ignores the type.
  527. lovetox and this rule make sense
  528. lovetox if its no hidden, its presented to the user
  529. lovetox as editable field
  530. Vaulor has left
  531. Vaulor has joined
  532. lovetox this means he could change the context on the submit
  533. flow larma> agree, my suggestion would be that we state in 0068 that in forms with type='submit' the field type='hidden' is optional +1
  534. larma lovetox: this is only about forms with type=submit, which you normally don't display in user interfaces
  535. flow FORM_TYPE feels like a displaced hack anyways. I wonder why do don't have a form-namespace attribute in <{jabber:x:data}x/>
  536. Zash When does a server even look at a form of any type but submit?
  537. larma lovetox, You display type=form and type=result and in those it should still be required to have it hidden because we don't want to display it to users
  538. lovetox but what you now are saying, type submit is never shown in a GUI
  539. lovetox can we make that assumption?
  540. Zash Sending a type=submit form to someone that was not expecting it .. seems unlikely to me
  541. lovetox ok but there is a type=result
  542. Zash And if they're expecting it then they should already have the form locally, and thus know the form type
  543. Zash type=result require <field type=...> right?
  544. Jeybe has left
  545. Jeybe has joined
  546. lovetox hm no when i read it correctly
  547. lovetox only form needs type
  548. lovetox everything else MAY include types
  549. lovetox and submit its OPTIONAL
  550. j.r has left
  551. Zash Mabye it needs to be clarified that you would never send a from type=submit to an entity that doesn't already know what the form looks like
  552. lovetox i scrolled back but i dont get how or where this is a problem, how did this question get raised?
  553. Zash Normal flow would be that I send you a form-from, then you return a submit-form, and I give you back a result form.
  554. Zash flow: Agree on the hacky feeling.
  555. sonny has left
  556. sonny has joined
  557. Zash Inconsistent to include the field type on the other field in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-80
  558. j.r has joined
  559. Max has left
  560. pdurbin has joined
  561. Max has joined
  562. j.r has left
  563. rion has left
  564. larma http://www.aptest.com/standards/htmldiff/htmldiff.pl?oldfile=https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0068.html&newfile=https://larma.de/xeps/xep-0068.html
  565. pdurbin has left
  566. j.r has joined
  567. rion has joined
  568. Zash 👍️
  569. j.r has left
  570. j.r has joined
  571. andrey.g has joined
  572. stpeter has joined
  573. stpeter has left
  574. Nekit has left
  575. emus has left
  576. emus has joined
  577. alexis has joined
  578. DebXWoody has left
  579. Alex has left
  580. Alex has joined
  581. Daniel has left
  582. Daniel has joined
  583. Jeybe has left
  584. Jeybe has joined
  585. pdurbin has joined
  586. Shell has joined
  587. Tobias has left
  588. Daniel has left
  589. Alex has left
  590. Daniel has joined
  591. Jeybe has left
  592. Jeybe has joined
  593. Jeybe has left
  594. Jeybe has joined
  595. Jeybe has left
  596. Jeybe has joined
  597. pdurbin has left
  598. Jeybe has left
  599. Jeybe has joined
  600. lovetox has left
  601. lovetox has joined
  602. Jeybe has left
  603. Jeybe has joined
  604. andrey.g has left
  605. moparisthebest has left
  606. andrey.g has joined
  607. Jeybe has left
  608. Jeybe has joined
  609. Marc has left
  610. Marc has joined
  611. goffi has left
  612. Daniel has left
  613. Daniel has joined
  614. gav has joined
  615. eta has left
  616. eta has joined
  617. Jeybe has left
  618. moparisthebest has joined
  619. lovetox has left
  620. werdan has left
  621. wurstsalat has left
  622. Marc has left
  623. robertooo has left
  624. robertooo has joined
  625. test has joined
  626. test has left
  627. govanify has left
  628. mukt2 has joined
  629. govanify has joined
  630. edhelas has left
  631. edhelas has joined
  632. mukt2 has left
  633. emus has left
  634. emus has joined
  635. j.r has left
  636. j.r has joined
  637. lovetox has joined
  638. andy has left
  639. paul has left
  640. aj has joined
  641. Wojtek has left
  642. lorddavidiii has left
  643. mukt2 has joined
  644. emus has left
  645. mukt2 has left
  646. moparisthebest has left