XSF Discussion - 2020-03-26

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  280. Ge0rG jonas’: looks like we have all the votes needed to issue two Last Calls :D
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  286. moparisthebest I've just been informed that TCP connections are supposed to be short lived, opened, used to send or recieve data, then immediatly closed, and any application that does not use them in this manner is doing it wrong and shouldn't be expected to work
  287. Daniel by your ISP?
  288. MattJ Wow, thanks. Wish I'd known that sooner
  289. jonas’ by whom?
  290. moparisthebest network team who installed some middleboxes that enforce this corporate-wide and is breaking a ton of stuff
  291. moparisthebest I too wish I had known sooner...
  292. jonas’ my doctor just said that people with this type of opinion are a danger to public health due to high blood pressure and should be put in internet-restricted quarantine.
  293. moparisthebest I can't disagree jonas’
  294. pep. module:disable('s2s')
  295. pep. ah it's :unload
  296. Zash My sanity just said that those people need to be quarantined for life, preferably in Darvaza.
  297. Zash The middleboxes too.
  298. flow moparisthebest, did you ask them *why* those middleboxes enforce this?
  299. moparisthebest it's in the name of "network optimization" and "because that's the right way to use TCP"
  300. moparisthebest so far this has just been over email but I have a meeting in a few hours... -.-
  301. Zash Isn't this going to mess up email access too?
  302. moparisthebest our middleboxes are both riverbed and telari , I don't know which or both are doing this in particular, but might be something to watch out for
  303. Zash Or has everyone gone JMAP already?
  304. MattJ JMAP IDLE
  305. moparisthebest not sure what outlook uses actually
  306. Zash OWA maybe :(
  307. Zash Web eats everything :(
  308. moparisthebest I use the browser version and http does "use tcp correctly" so I guess I'm ok?
  309. Zash moparisthebest, you could tell them it breaks all your (paying customers) websocket applications
  310. moparisthebest we also have, nfs and cifs file servers too, guess we better turn them off
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  314. Guus kid just soiled itself, unsure if I can make board meeting
  315. pep. !
  316. pep. It's time indeed
  317. pep. Seve, MattJ ^
  318. Seve says hi
  319. MattJ o/
  320. pep. So we've got Guus and ralph excused
  321. pep. 0. Agenda
  322. pep. Do we have anything for today?
  323. MattJ There were some items added to Trello
  324. pep. I'll leave ralph items for next week
  325. pep. 1. Hire communications person
  326. pep. Quick update: I've poked peter, waiting for advice on contracting. Nothing else yet
  327. pep. 2. AOB?
  328. Seve None for me, just thanks to iteam for bringing everything back up :)
  329. pep. Yep thanks a lot to iteam (MattJ) for handling the outage :)
  330. pep. There's an item for discussion in the board, "Iteam budget"
  331. pep. MattJ, if you want to talk about it?
  332. Seve MattJ, might want to expan that
  333. Seve MattJ, might want to expand that
  334. MattJ Yeah. So I opened a DigitalOcean account for the XSF, as a place to bring up a replacement server
  335. MattJ This is being billed from the XSF account since yesterday (thanks stpeter)
  336. MattJ Cost is pretty low, I don't remember which exact server I selected
  337. MattJ But I thought it would be good to have a clear budget for iteam
  338. pep. How much do you think you'd need?
  339. MattJ Because we may want to add additional servers as we modernize the infrastructure
  340. Zash And then jump on the k8s train‽
  341. MattJ I was thinking something like $1200/year
  342. MattJ As an upper limit, not a goal
  343. Seve Modernizing sounds very appealing to me
  344. pep. How many machines do you have with this weekend already? / cost
  345. MattJ Just the one server right now, checking the cost
  346. pep. Otherwise I'm happy to trust your decisions. $1200 seems very much fine
  347. pep. Previous hosting was being sponsored right?
  348. pep. Any news of them btw? Maybe different topic
  349. MattJ No news yet. Different but very related topic. Obviously their donation for all these years has basically kept our infrastructure costs at close to zero (we currently pay for tarsnap for backups)
  350. MattJ And moving stuff back there may make sense in the long run, but only if we can be sure this situation won't happen again
  351. Zash (AOB turned into an iteam report?)
  352. pep. Zash, kinda
  353. MattJ E.g. by providing us with remote access to cycle machines (which we used to have), and extra emergency contact details
  354. pep. But it's really another item :)
  355. pep. MattJ, for the budget, I agree, and I guess we'd all agree but we can talk about it again. Maybe bring that up on list? It seems we've got board members absent again in meetings
  356. MattJ Ok, current replacement server is $20.month
  357. pep. Okay
  358. Seve Setting a budged is a good idea anyway, so thanks for bringing this up MattJ
  359. MattJ If we're to expand, I can imagine adding a couple of smaller (cheaper) servers as well as this
  360. MattJ and maybe some third-party monitoring which would also have a cost
  361. MattJ But that's about it in my mind right now
  362. pep. Right. I don't think we'll get to $1200 right away, but it's also not really difficult if we wanted to :)
  363. MattJ I'm fine if we want to set the limit lower than that, and while we still have other servers donated, I think that would be fine
  364. pep. Ok, should we put this for next week to see if everybody agrees?
  365. MattJ wfm
  366. MattJ There was another item
  367. pep. k
  368. MattJ I thought it was on trello, but apparently not... it's to approve jonas’ joining iteam
  369. pep. That was 3. Iteam budget then
  370. pep. And 4. Another iteam
  371. pep. item, sorry.
  372. MattJ :)
  373. pep. Yep also sounds good to me
  374. MattJ jonas’ has kindly offered to help out with some of the modernization work
  375. pep. That team member list is also getting quite long :p
  376. MattJ Yeah, that's something that will be under review
  377. pep. Seve, thoughts?
  378. MattJ Figure out what servers we have -> who needs access to what -> who should/shouldn't be in the team
  379. pep. I really wished we were doing votes on-list as well (somewhat like council). Now we're just deferring until we get a fullhouse kinda
  380. pep. Anyway
  381. Seve Oh, I think I got disconnected
  382. Seve I'm happy for us moving in that direction, so nothing to complain about. Just maybe, I would prefer to have a "shorter" budget and increase it depending on our needs, just to make wiser decisions. But I completely trust Mat so all is good. Let's keep going on with this!
  383. pep. One doesn't have to use all the budget anyway :)
  384. pep. Ok, MattJ we're moving that also for next week then?
  385. pep. Or on-list if you can bring it there
  386. MattJ wfm
  387. pep. 5. Any other AOB?
  388. MattJ I may do some planning/pricing and request a more specific budget, then post on list
  389. pep. Thanks
  390. pep. 6. Close
  391. pep. Next: +1w
  392. pep. Thanks all
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  395. MattJ Thanks pep. :)
  396. moparisthebest > One doesn't have to use all the budget anyway :) maybe you should talk to the government
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  402. Guus I blame Frozen. She couldn't get out of her princess dress fast enough. Second time I had to clean the restroom today. The other kid was sick in it earlier.
  403. Guus MattJ: thanks for taking care of things. I'm not exactly sure on what happened in the first place. Would you mind sharing some details when you have some time?
  404. MattJ We have no details :(
  405. MattJ I don't even know what time the server went down
  406. Guus So, we 'just' have an unresponsive server and no way to get to it?
  407. MattJ Yes
  408. MattJ For what it's worth I found in my email archive that this also happened in March 2019
  409. MattJ And a power cycle brought it back to life
  410. MattJ But the guy who did that last year has not been responsive so far (and many DCs are locked down right now anyway)
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  412. Guus To what extent do we have backups from which we can restore data, if need be?
  413. MattJ You're currently chatting on a server restored from backups
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  416. MattJ The backups are nightly, so we potentially lost up to 24h of chats/wiki edits, depending on exactly when it went down
  417. Guus Mail archives?
  418. MattJ Mail is on a different server
  419. MattJ (and that is also backed up)
  420. Guus In the same data center though?
  421. MattJ Yes
  422. Guus So the data center didn't explode. 😁
  423. MattJ Yeah, other stuff is working fine there (and the other servers are in the same rack)
  424. Kev Frankly, I think it's a wonder that Matt has managed to get 'everything' back up from a backup, given backups invariably turn out to not work when you need them. So despite being an inconvenience, I think this is a win!
  425. MattJ Yeah, this could have been a different story :) (one we've lived through before)
  426. Guus Hehe, glass half full kind of guy you are.
  427. MattJ So thanks Kev for leading that initiative back then
  428. MattJ Also, it's not necessarily the case that data on the down server is lost
  429. MattJ Just unreachable until it's powered back on
  430. Kev Although at least for wiki edits it effectively is.
  431. MattJ I don't plan to merge anything if it comes back, if that's what you mean
  432. Kev Because chances of us mananging to work out and reapply deltas between two DBs are limited.
  433. Kev Chat logs for a single day are probably easier to reinsert.
  434. MattJ But I wouldn't mind checking 'Recent changes' on the old server and comparing
  435. Kev Yeah, that wouldn't be daft.
  436. MattJ and a manual copy/paste in that case would suffice, likely
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  438. Guus Thanks for taking care of everything. Let's find a way to prevent this from happening again in the future. If budget is needed for that, I think we should consider spending that.
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  440. MattJ It's a difficult situation - if we can continue to use donated hosting, I'm totally fine with that
  441. Zash Given that there were days between the crash and there store it should be relatively easy to merge the chat logs
  442. Zash Says me with my Prosody hat on, knowing how that's stored.
  443. Zash (hats!)
  444. MattJ We just need to ensure that things like this don't happen, and that we have an action plan when they do
  445. Kev I think I suggested something about this? Or did I dream that conversation?
  446. Guus Obviously, but I'd like to have a reasonable assurance that we can reach our servers when they're out. Last time, this was an issue too.
  447. MattJ I'm pretty sure if the XSF wanted to e.g. pay for a power strip that allows remote power cycling, that's already an improvement
  448. MattJ Kev, you did say similar in a private conversation with me
  449. pep. MattJ, I doubt you'd need this tbh
  450. pep. IPMI/ME should do, if available
  451. pep. and I guess that is, on a server
  452. pep. Now it does need to be plugged :p
  453. MattJ I /think/ the server in question doesn't have that, but I may be wrong
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  455. MattJ Some of them do, but it's not exactly documented (except in ancient email threads)
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  457. Kev Typically we've bought hardware that does have ILO-ish things, but this box was different so I don't know.
  458. Guus There's probably a bunch of options that we can look at. I'm happy for iteam to first finish the disaster recovery, then come up with a plan for the future.
  459. Guus What's confusing to me is that in a DC, we're still limited to one contact person.
  460. Guus Isnt this a commercial DC, or are we serviced off the books or something?
  461. MattJ Our relationship with them pre-dates my involvement with the XSF, so I don't know the details
  462. Kev This is all done out of the goodness of Jerry's heart, and has been since the year Dot. We're not a client or anything.
  463. Guus Although I'm very happy for Jerry's efforts, some kind of more robust service might be preferable, given that our hardware seems to become less reliable.
  464. Guus I'm thinking we are running on aging hardware?
  465. Kev That's also because we live off donated and/or ancient hardware etc., mind.
  466. Guus Sure, it is totally understandable
  467. Guus We have a pretty good deal on all this
  468. Kev I remember exactly one issue with the hosting, as opposed to the machines -and far more instances of the opposite, where Jerry's just found 'random' hard drives/other hardware to patch up our servers to get them straight back up.
  469. Kev (And that issue with the hosting was because we were getting DoSd so Jerry had to DoS protection stuff)
  470. MattJ Another part of me thinks that we don't /need/ dedicated hardware for what we do these days. Maybe in 2004, but virtual servers are cheap and easy these days.
  471. Guus But maybe it's time to improve reliability by spending a bit more money
  472. Kev So I'm very happy to recommend various changes, but I don't think our hosting environment is a significant part of our issues.
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  475. Kev Yes, we could probably (other than xmpp.net) cope with a £5/mo servers4u VPS or something.
  476. Guus If an important server is unreachable for several days, I think it is somewhat of a problem.
  477. pep. MattJ, depends what we want to do with them
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  479. MattJ It's been a week now
  480. MattJ (well, it went offline some time between Thu night and Fri morning)
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  538. João Duarte I just realized now, after 4 days, that my clients werent updating any messages
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  543. João Duarte Was coming here to give Manav some feedback, but now if i understood correctly, it was some server issue that is causing trouble to the chat rooms?
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  545. flow João Duarte, yep
  546. João Duarte Ah okay. Anyway to get things back updating in the clients? Or just wait?
  547. Zash Depends on the client, but leaving and rejoining should do the trick
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  550. João Duarte Im using pidgin on desktop and xabber on mobile
  551. João Duarte Already tried rejoining to no avail
  552. João Duarte But maybe i can troubleshoot my way through, just wanted to check it was within my reach and not something purely on the server
  553. Zash The server that served this chat went down and we don't know why. This chat is now running on a new server.
  554. João Duarte Same thing for prosody's chat?
  555. Zash No
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  558. João Duarte I guess so, because the last messages I have were sent in the 22th
  559. João Duarte hm
  560. Zash Then it was probably not the XSF server issue.
  561. Link Mauve jonas’, you once told me not to include real client names in XEPs right? I’m fixing MIX’s examples which were violating XEP-0030 MUSTs.
  562. Link Mauve Ah no, in the end you accepted it in XEP-0402.
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  575. Link Mauve “A nick MAY be specified as a <nick/> child elements of the <join/> element.”, what happens if the user’s server didn’t specify a nick and the MIX channel requires one?
  576. Ge0rG Link Mauve: yes.
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  579. Link Mauve Ah, “If nick is missing on a channel where nick is mandatory, the join MUST be rejected.”, nvm.
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  586. Link Mauve Again in MIX, why is it <update-subscription/> but <setnick/>?
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  591. Link Mauve In section 7.3.4, this is the first time there is no <{mix}destroy/> in the iq result, is this wanted?
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  625. Link Mauve MIX is missing error cases.
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