XSF Discussion - 2020-03-27

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  206. Link Mauve In MIX, is it impossible to unsubscribe from a node after having joined a channel, instead of leaving and rejoining with just the ones we want?
  207. Zash Instinctively I'd say you should be able to un/subscribe to individual nodes all you want.
  208. Zash I thought the join stanza was mainly a convenience thing that did a bunch of subscribes for you under the hood
  209. Link Mauve Zash, the join has to be done by the user’s server, then there is the update-subscription that can be done directly by the user, but it doesn’t define an unsubscribe mechanism.
  210. Link Mauve I guess I’ll propose it.
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  225. MattJ People who are using XEP-0333 in the wild, are you really using the id attribute for that?
  226. MattJ In a MUC especially that seems like a bad idea
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  229. larma MattJ, it doesn't say which id to use, does it?
  230. larma > The Chat Marker MUST have an 'id' which is the 'id' of the message being marked. isn't really specific
  231. MattJ The example shows it using the id attribute
  232. larma true
  233. MattJ So those two things combined suggest that yes, it does specify
  234. pep. "The example shows" is not normative :x
  235. MattJ Regardless, we have plenty of things only documented by examples in XEPs :)
  236. larma the example message also isn't in a MUC, so...
  237. pep. Maybe someday we'll make them normative..
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  241. larma also the example doesn't have origin-id or stanza-id, so maybe the rule is, "Use in order: stanza-id of a MUC, origin-id, message id attribute", the examples are just not good in showing that rule and it's not written down yet 😀
  242. MattJ Nice try :)
  243. MattJ which is why I asked what people are doing in the wild
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  247. larma we don't do stanza id
  248. larma (Dino)
  249. Daniel Conversations uses orgin id for everything 184 and 333 related
  250. flow larma, chat markers (and many other xeps referring to just "id") predate other xeps which introduce other IDs, so it is safe to assume that those XEPs are talking about rfc6120 IDs
  251. Daniel Not going into the _correctness_ of that but you asked what clients are doing
  252. larma We also consider origin-id the new id attribute pretty much everywhere in Dino
  253. larma (if present)
  254. Daniel Using the stanza id might be _more_ correct in mucs. But only available in mucs. And then you have different behavior for group chats and 1:1
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  257. larma I guess we would want different behavior here
  258. MattJ Looks like converse.js uses the id attribute
  259. MattJ I'm in a situation where I want the MUC to be able to track who has read what
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  262. Daniel That's why I advocated multiple times that clients setting the orgin-id must set message ID and orgin id to the same value
  263. larma IMO we should finally have a XEP that rules how to use IDs properly
  264. larma like all of them
  265. MattJ Daniel, yeah, I think that makes sense
  266. MattJ I mean, we almost dropped origin-id entirely anyway
  267. larma Daniel, isn't that what all clients do that support origin-id?
  268. larma (although it should be in the XEP)
  269. larma and it should also be in the XEP that it shall be UUIDs
  270. Daniel larma: maybe. It's definitely not codified in the xep and flow was against that
  271. pep. But that works only if muc#stable-id right?
  272. pep. id == origin-id
  273. Daniel Well no
  274. Daniel It's about expectations
  275. pep. I mean for MUC cases
  276. Daniel When a client expects the reply to reference the normal ID and the replyee uses the orgin id it doesn't matter
  277. larma pep., the sender can send id == origin-id, it's just not guaranteed to be the same after it passed MUC
  278. Daniel Because both would work
  279. pep. larma, sure I agree
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  281. pep. The receiver will have very different expectations if muc#stable-id is present or not
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  283. MattJ jonas’, weird revision history here? (see timestamps): https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0184.html#appendix-revs
  284. MattJ 1.3.0 is dated later than 1.4.0
  285. jonas’ probably a slip when writing the year
  286. jonas’ or maybe a PR which was stuck reaaaaly long
  287. larma pep., I personally don't like muc#stable-id, we kind of have to work-around it everywhere with stanza-id of the MUCs MAM. It would be much more useful if MUCs would just guarantee that id is a uniquely generated random id and tell the sender the id their message got
  288. pep. It would..
  289. pep. I'm not saying I like it either
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  298. MattJ larma, that's basically exactly what I'm considering doing right now :/
  299. MattJ Looks like we don't even advertise stable-id
  300. jonas’ sounds like MIX
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  303. MattJ But I imagine many clients will break if we just rewrite ids
  304. MattJ (though jabber.org still does that, right?)
  305. larma MattJ, I don't think so, most clients can handle it if muc#stable-id is not present
  306. larma also some gateways don't support it
  307. MattJ So I'm looking at converse.js which uses the 'id' attribute in XEP-0184 and XEP-0333
  308. Zash Maybe there should be both muc#stable-id and muc#random-id
  309. larma we could have a new feature muc#unique-id
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  312. larma 😀
  313. MattJ it doesn't appear to look for origin-id or detect muc#stable-id
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  315. MattJ I think it uses origin-id only to track what messages are reflections
  316. larma btw, I always wondered if muc#stable-id is a violation of RFC 6120
  317. larma > It is up to the originating entity whether the value of the 'id' attribute is unique only within its current stream or unique globally. None of the two is guaranteed when doing muc#stable-id
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  319. MattJ It depends what you consider the "originating entity" to be
  320. larma well, the one in from
  321. MattJ Some people argue the client is the originating entity, others argue that the MUC is originating a new message based on the one the client submitted
  322. larma which is the muc
  323. MattJ Are clients storing a map between the id assigned by the MUC and the origin id?
  324. MattJ or what?
  325. MattJ If Converse.js sends a 184 receipt for the id assigned by the MUC (@id), are clients going to know what it is acknowledging?
  326. jonas’ MattJ, aioxmpp relies on #stable-id for tracking of its own messages. Without that, it’ll fallback to matching the body, which is stupid.
  327. MattJ Neither XEP says to use origin-id, so I can't argue it's a bug in Converse
  328. MattJ jonas’, why not origin-id?
  329. jonas’ MattJ, because we don’t auto-generate origin-id
  330. jonas’ I consider that to be a different layer
  331. MattJ Have fun with that :)
  332. jonas’ works well ;P
  333. MattJ This is all a terrible mess
  334. jonas’ agreed
  335. MattJ I'm just trying to get stuff done that will work with all clients
  336. MattJ But there is a gaping hole in the specs, so it's impossible
  337. jonas’ MattJ, a MIX-style annotation in the reflection to myself would be ok too, though
  338. Zash Thou shallt not have nice things!
  339. MattJ So right now it looks like I'll have to just make it work with Converse.js and likely mess up other clients
  340. jonas’ what problem does converse.js have?
  341. MattJ It doesn't have a problem
  342. jonas’ if it doesn’t work with #stable-id, I consider that a roblem ;)
  343. larma MattJ, Dino stores for each message (when possible) two IDs: the "stanza_id" which is either origin-id or id attribute and the "server_id" which is stanza-id of MUC in MUCs or stanza-id of your bare jid (= your MAM id) in direct message. If origin-id and id attribute mismatch we have a problem 😀
  344. jonas’ if it doesn’t work with #stable-id, I consider that a problem ;)
  345. MattJ jonas’, it does work with #stable-id
  346. jonas’ then I can’t follow at all
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  349. MattJ I'm working on the server side, and I want to figure out what clients are acking (I imagine this would also apply to a client that wanted to observe what messages other occupants had received/read)
  350. MattJ Currently it seems I need to store a map of a non-unique id (@id) to stanza-id
  351. MattJ The non-unique part obviously makes that impossible
  352. MattJ (or unreliable, if you prefer)
  353. Zash If you're in the camp with "You send a message to the MUC, which then sends its own message out", shouldn't the MUC answer receipts then?
  354. Zash MUC could even send receipt-requests on its messages and return a receipt to the original sender when it gets receipts from enough participants.
  355. MattJ And read markers?
  356. jubalh gosh
  357. Zash Ugh
  358. pep. Zash, how do you define "enough"
  359. Zash Implementation detail!
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  362. MattJ Usually you can cope with the non-uniqueness of @id by scoping to a particular JID, but you can't do that in MUC (because acks get sent to the MUC JID)
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  458. Link Mauve Guus, how up to date is your MIX server implementation?
  459. Link Mauve Could it be used to proxy joins and let clients access it?
  460. Guus Link Mauve I have none.
  461. Guus I think Surevine / Dave created one once, based on Openfire, but that never was merged.
  462. Guus dwd ?
  463. Guus https://github.com/surevine/Openfire filter branches for "mix" and you'll find a couple. I do not know what their state is.
  464. Guus Dave and me previously discussed working on getting this merged in Openfire, but never got around doing that.
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  502. edhelas https://twitter.com/MovimNetwork/status/1243574534600626186
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  529. jubalh how can I create account for the wiki https://wiki.xmpp.org ?
  530. Link Mauve jubalh, ask Guus, ↑
  531. jubalh asks Guus
  532. pep. Or Ge0rG
  533. pep. Or https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sysops
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  540. Ge0rG It's well documented on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sysops - please provide your desired wiki user name in CamelCase and an email address. real name is optional
  541. Ge0rG jubalh: It's well documented on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sysops - please provide your desired wiki user name in CamelCase and an email address. real name is optional
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  658. daniel hola
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  660. emus Hola compañiero../a?
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  664. rion por que todos hablan español?
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