XSF Discussion - 2020-03-28

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  146. emus For the Berlin Sprint I created a little open-mind question. As it is made online now, everyone can particiate. Feel free to state your visions on XMPP for the next years: https://yourpart.eu/p/xmpp-2020-berlin
  147. emus > por que todos hablan español? No español todo, just making fun
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  165. MattJ Daniel, would it be terrible if XEP-0333 said (along the lines of) "In a MUC, use ids in this order of preference: stanza-id, origin-id, @id." ?
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  167. MattJ I'd like a world where the MUC itself is able to track read status of users, and I can achieve that today while only aiming for compat with Converse.js (which doesn't use origin-id in markers)
  168. MattJ But then it loses compat with Conversations
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  170. Daniel MattJ: yeah I guess that be OK
  171. MattJ Not sure how best to keep backwards-compatibility, but I'll have a think about it all
  172. MattJ I really think we need an informational XEP on IDs in general anyway
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  179. Daniel having an either-or situtation is also bad on the parsing end
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  181. MattJ I just realised markers in MUC aren't at all specified anyway
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  199. Ge0rG MattJ: we need to introduce a new unified ID that removes all the drawbacks of pre-existing ID schemes
  200. MattJ Good idea
  201. Ge0rG It shall be called "message ID"
  202. MattJ Perfect
  203. MattJ Can it also be used on presence?
  204. lovetox MattJ, so you plan that a client references a stanza-id in its read marker?
  205. MattJ In a MUC, yes
  206. lovetox ok and the message-id is bad why?
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  208. MattJ You mean the id attribute?
  209. lovetox yes, not Ge0rG new thing :d
  210. MattJ ;)
  211. MattJ Because it is optional, and not guaranteed to be unique
  212. MattJ If two users send id='foo' and both add <markable/> nobody can know what <received id='foo'/> means
  213. lovetox hm indeed
  214. Ge0rG MattJ [15:16]: > Can it also be used on presence? Yes, but the name shall remain the same.
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  216. lovetox why not just adding a new MUC feature that lets the MUC add the message-id?
  217. pep. MattJ, tbh others are just as optional. You need to implement the XEPs :)
  218. lovetox and sidestep all the problems
  219. MattJ It can do that now, if it wants (if it doesn't advertise muc#stable-id)
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  221. MattJ Conversations bypasses this by using origin-id instead
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  223. MattJ Now the MUC /could/ rewrite the origin-id, but that would be very bad :)
  224. lovetox hm MattJ stable-id does only mean the MUC has to reflect the user chosen id
  225. lovetox exactly the opposite of what we want
  226. MattJ Oh, but you mean it might send a different id to other occupants? Right
  227. MattJ I think everything is simpler if we just say stanza-id should be used
  228. lovetox yes and just disable markers if MAM is not activated
  229. MattJ Works for me :)
  230. lovetox or fall back to message-id
  231. lovetox i already save message-id and stanza-id
  232. lovetox i somehow beeing reluctant to add a third database field for origin-id
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  234. lovetox every client that uses origin-id should set the message-id accordingly
  235. MattJ I agree (though the XEP still doesn't say that :( )
  236. lovetox yeah but thats not a big problem, really thats a nice to have thing a read marker
  237. lovetox if it does not work perfectly because there are malicious clients in some MUCs
  238. lovetox i dont really care ..
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  264. Maranda 🤔
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  283. Neustradamus When there are S2S TLS problems, and when an user@xmpp.tld try to join a mucroom@conference.xmpp.tld, it is not possible and the XMPP client has not an error. Can you add new informations to inform XMPP client?
  284. rion Neustradamus: of course we can, but how do you think it should work?
  285. Neustradamus When there are S2S TLS problems, and when an user@xmpp1.tld try to join a mucroom@conference.xmpp2.tld, it is not possible and the XMPP client has not an error. Can you add new informations to inform XMPP client?
  286. rion oh I thought it's Psi channel, but the question is anyway valid :)
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  294. Neustradamus I have created: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/916 Note: https://github.com/xsf/rfcs/issues not updated since several years.
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  299. Ge0rG Neustradamus: the server on xmpp1.tld will create a presence error response to the user
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  304. Neustradamus Ge0rG: For example an user@jabber.org -> muc@muc.xmpp.org The log on muc.xmpp.org: - User has joined - User has left Client has not error and the client always tries but it has already failed.
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  307. vanitasvitae > The log on muc.xmpp.org: > - User has joined > - User has left I'd assume that this means that there are no real s2s issues?
  308. vanitasvitae I mean, apparently the users server can reach the muc service
  309. MattJ Probably it means the s2s is one way
  310. vanitasvitae ah that may be
  311. MattJ So server1 sees no issue, server2 is unable to send an error back to the user because it can't establish a connection
  312. vanitasvitae Right
  313. vanitasvitae So server1 should probably return some timeout error to the client?
  314. MattJ server1 is not performing any operation, the connection server1->server2 succeeds
  315. MattJ at the MUC level, the client could implement a timeout
  316. vanitasvitae #MIXWhen?
  317. MattJ :)
  318. Ge0rG MattJ: shouldn't server2 close the incoming connection when dialback fails?
  319. MattJ MIX doesn't solve this
  320. MattJ Ge0rG, there is no dialback, auth happened via TLS
  321. jonas’ MIX has its own share of fun failure modes when s2s fails :)
  322. Daniel #198s2sWhen?
  323. Ge0rG jonas’: it also has all the previously existing failure modes
  324. Ge0rG MattJ: so we can't do anything against asymmetric s2s?
  325. pep. does 198s2s even help with this? it's not like server2->server1 was even a thing to start with
  326. pep. Daniel, I'd say bidi rather
  327. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0288.xml !
  328. MattJ server2 could only accept the connection if it can make a return one
  329. MattJ Some people think bidi is the solution
  330. MattJ bidi just makes it worse IMHO
  331. MattJ It just moves the failure to some other point in time
  332. jonas’ MattJ, accept as in accept(2)?
  333. jonas’ MattJ, bidi would make the failure more discoverable though
  334. pep. I'd say possibly less(?)
  335. MattJ jonas’, no, it would make a return connection before informing the incoming stream that it is authenticated
  336. jonas’ either it succeeds (server1->server2) or it fails (server2->server1). There’s no half-open state anymore.
  337. Zash With bidi you either get a working connection or not. No half-failuers.
  338. MattJ jonas’, it makes it less discoverable
  339. pep. No half failures, but then you're not seeing server2->server1 fails
  340. MattJ In this case, let's assume you have bidi. Joining the MUC will work!
  341. jonas’ pep., the sender of stanzas from server2 sees it though
  342. MattJ and then later when the s2s connection closes for whatever reason, it fails
  343. pep. jonas’, assuming they initiate the connection
  344. jonas’ pep., if they don’t, there’s nothing which gets lost.
  345. jonas’ MattJ, sure, you drop out of the room. That’s discoverable.
  346. pep. Sure, but I get why MattJ is saying "moves the failure to a later time"
  347. MattJ My preference would be not being able to join the room with a broken setup
  348. pep. I do think no half-failures is better
  349. jonas’ BIDI provides a *consistent* view across the system at any point in time, which I think is valuable.
  350. MattJ Instead of pretending it's not broken
  351. Zash MattJ, you know what gets you that? Dialback.
  352. MattJ I will not be convinced that "It fails when I send messages to you, unless you sent a message to me first within the past N minutes" is a world I want to live in
  353. jonas’ MattJ, I slightly prefer that world over "I can send messages to you always, but you can’t send messages to me at all"
  354. MattJ But that one is so simple
  355. MattJ You can send messages out? Ok, outgoing connections work
  356. MattJ You can't receive messages in? Ok, your firewall or DNS or cert is messed up
  357. MattJ With bidi, how do you even debug that?
  358. MattJ Without a hack to disable bidi on the server for testing
  359. Zash By looking at your server logs?
  360. MattJ Yeah, that's not the world I want to live in (telling people to look at server logs)
  361. MattJ But I think you miss my point
  362. MattJ If bidi is enabled, I test outgoing, and there is no way to test incoming without force-closing the outgoing connection
  363. MattJ It will just appear like it works anyway
  364. MattJ Until later, when it randomly doesn't (but you won't know, because by then nobody will be able to contact you)
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  368. Zash Well. Trade-offs be that.
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  376. Zash Thing that could be done.. relax the requirement for error replies to be sent on a stream in the proper direction.
  377. Zash Hm, but that doesn't fix MUC
  378. Zash Tool that tests your DNS and connectivity from the outside and gives you a green checkmark?
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  402. jonas’ like xmpp.net?
  403. jonas’ how useful would it be if there was a public HTTP API endpoint which would try to establish an S2S connection to a given domain and report the results?
  404. jonas’ more of a "yes/no" type result, not full cipherlist
  405. Zash So useful I almost made this already :)
  406. jonas’ what if I told you all I need to do is open a port in my firewall?
  407. Zash Hm, I did have a thing like this but it was hooked up to a DANE-only server for testing your DANE validation stuff.
  408. jonas’ `curl io.sotecware.net:9604/probe\?module=s2s_normal\&target=xmpp:muc.xmpp.org`
  409. jonas’ (now with IPv6)
  410. Zash Hol up what
  411. Zash > Secure s2sin_unauthed connection from blackbox@zash.se to zash.se failed.
  412. jonas’ that sounds wrong
  413. jonas’ but my prober agrees
  414. Zash Verily
  415. Zash I'm surprised Prosody don't reject the @ in the stream.
  416. jonas’ so I take it that I should spin up a second instance of this and expose it to the world?
  417. jonas’ maybe behind a reverse proxy on the search.jabber.network domain
  418. !XSF_Martin jonas’: What's this good for? Checking if the MUC component is reachable by muclumbus?
  419. jonas’ !XSF_Martin, I could see integration in tools like `prosodyctl check`
  420. !XSF_Martin Hmm, but not every prosody instance will have the MUC component reachable from external I guess.
  421. jonas’ !XSF_Martin, in that case, don’t probe the MUC component but something else ;)
  422. jonas’ !XSF_Martin, it’s not specfic to MUC at all
  423. !XSF_Martin Yeah, but would prosodyctl know if you have SRV records for you MUC component?
  424. jonas’ yes, it already checks that
  425. jonas’ (IIRC)
  426. !XSF_Martin Ok
  427. Zash `prosodyctl check dns` already checks everything, but it naturally can't test that it really works from the outside
  428. jonas’ the tool is also 100% unrelated to search.jabber.network
  429. Zash probe.jabber.network? poke.?
  430. !XSF_Martin Hmm, chat.mdosch.de is probably cached because it's listed at s.j.o but holy crap, connecting to mdosch.de takes ages
  431. jonas’ Zash, bikeshedding!
  432. !XSF_Martin martin@schlepptop ~ % curl -6 io.sotecware.net:9604/probe\?module=s2s_normal\&target=xmpp:chat.mdosch.de # HELP probe_duration_seconds Returns how long the probe took to complete in seconds # TYPE probe_duration_seconds gauge probe_duration_seconds 0.527403685 # HELP probe_success Displays whether or not the probe was a success # TYPE probe_success gauge probe_success 0 martin@schlepptop ~ % curl -6 io.sotecware.net:9604/probe\?module=s2s_normal\&target=xmpp:mdosch.de # HELP probe_duration_seconds Returns how long the probe took to complete in seconds # TYPE probe_duration_seconds gauge probe_duration_seconds 4.191193315 # HELP probe_success Displays whether or not the probe was a success # TYPE probe_success gauge probe_success 0
  433. jonas’ !XSF_Martin, it doesn’t cache anything
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  435. jonas’ it’s a fresh connection every time
  436. jonas’ it’s, again, 100% unrelated to search.jabber.network
  437. jonas’ (except that it runs on the same box)
  438. jonas’ also, note that both probes fail
  439. Zash jonas’, how far does it go with the s2s?
  440. !XSF_Martin Ugh, I thought returning 0 is SUCCESS
  441. jonas’ Zash, good question!
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  444. jonas’ Zash, I think it only does STARTTLS
  445. pep. !XSF_Martin, using integers as bools do this to you yeah :P
  446. Zash jonas’: But it doesn't provide a certificate, and also the wrong stream name.
  447. jonas’ pep., floats, not integers
  448. pep. sure
  449. jonas’ ;>
  450. !XSF_Martin >probe_duration_seconds 8.2175e-05
  451. Zash And why the heck does nameprep allow '@' ?
  452. jonas’ Zash, no, it doesn’t provide a certificate (it also doesn’t start authentication). Wrong stream name being?
  453. jonas’ uh, was that blackbox@zash.se from me?
  454. Zash jonas’, blackbox@ name of thing you probe
  455. Zash jonas’: Yes
  456. jonas’ uh
  457. jonas’ how did that happen :)
  458. !XSF_Martin >Mar 28 19:43:09 s2sin5628b6007350 info Incoming s2s stream blackbox@chat.mdosch.de->chat.mdosch.de closed: Your server's certificate could not be validated
  459. !XSF_Martin Zash: jonas’: This? ^
  460. Zash That
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  462. Zash jonas’, do you see stream errors? Prosody trunk should be sending nicer descriptions there :)
  463. jonas’ hah: https://github.com/horazont/prometheus-xmpp-blackbox-exporter/blob/master/prober/dial.go#L82
  464. jonas’ hm, so this is going to break now that dialback is going to be phased out?
  465. Zash That can't possibly have worked with dialback already
  466. jonas’ I use it all the time
  467. jonas’ also, the curl command I pasted earlier also returns with success
  468. Zash Because it gets past the TLS and then you simply don't authenticate?
  469. Zash Whereas my and !XSF_Martin's servers abort the connection at that stage for not having a valid certificate (none at all in this case)
  470. jonas’ away for tonight
  471. !XSF_Martin We didn't target at scaring you away.
  472. !XSF_Martin But enjoy your evening jonas’. Bye. :)
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  474. jonas’ contemplates whether to leave that port open
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  499. Zash On a tangental topic, I set up something like badssl.com for xmpp: https://badxmpp.eu/
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  501. pep. fancy
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  504. !XSF_Martin The bulb should look bad, so let it wear a hoody!
  505. !XSF_Martin 😃
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  522. jonas’ Zash, nice!
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  530. Zash Sent a longer announcement to jdev@
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  534. moparisthebest Zash: oooh been wanting to set up something like that for awhile, specifically to test various srv fallback behavior in both c2s and s2s
  535. moparisthebest Not the same but related I guess
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  543. Zash moparisthebest: I want to expand weird SRV setups, just haven't gotten that far yet. If you want to help and/or suggest specific SRV setups that'd be cool.
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  551. moparisthebest Zash: for starters, I've seen many give up if only the TCP connection succeeds, but something else is wrong, even if the certificate is wrong, that should still trigger fallback to the next record
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  555. Zash Yeah. There's one thing already that's just pointed at a http port. A SRV setup with [ http, normal xmpp ] would be interesting.
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  557. moparisthebest yep, or a xmpps-client with [ https, xmpps ] which is what happens in practice if something requires ALPN but the client doesn't send it, dino fails here
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  561. moparisthebest I still have deep on my list to write a, maybe informational, xep with guidelines about when to continue SRV fallback and when to abort
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