XSF Discussion - 2020-03-30

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  120. jonas’

    re unicode version fun: https://labs.spotify.com/2013/06/18/creative-usernames/

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  135. Zash


  136. Zash

    Huh, what's that random draft they link to?

  137. Zash

    I thought nodeprep et all was some RFC somewhere

  138. Zash

    Oh, 2013

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  153. MattJ

    Where did the RFCs go.....

  154. MattJ


  155. Zash


  156. jonas’

    where they belong, on ietf.org? ;)

  157. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html ‽

  158. Zash

    Were they in yet another container?

  159. MattJ

    No, looks like they were on the host filesystem

  160. Ge0rG

    NOOOO! The only good rendering of our RFCs is gone!

  161. MattJ

    Restoring now

  162. Ge0rG

    MattJ: do you have access to the host again?

  163. MattJ

    And they're back

  164. Zash

    !praise MattJ

  165. MattJ

    !praise backups

  166. jonas’

    nooo the worst rendering of an RFC ever is back ;-P

  167. pep.

    MattJ: Can you also pull the docker containers for xeps and xmpp.org plz

  168. MattJ

    Yes, I'll do that now :)

  169. pep.


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  172. MattJ

    I assume this was previously just in cron or something

  173. jonas’

    very likely

  174. Zash

    Would Someone™️ like to review, merge, maybe even test, the wiki PRs I made?

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  176. jonas’

    given the insane amount of pulls the xeps docker image has

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  178. MattJ

    pep., done

  179. MattJ

    Any opinions on what an entity should return if someone includes an unrecognised form field in a form submission?

  180. jonas’

    > When receiving a search form, the Search Service MUST ignore fields with a var value it does not understand. XEP-0433

  181. Zash

    Either a) ignore it or b) an error

  182. jonas’

    if that’s not an option then I’d suggest feature-not-implemented with an application-specific error condition.

  183. MattJ

    Yes, I was going with (b) an error

  184. Zash


  185. MattJ

    Just wasn't sure what error

  186. Zash

    or what jonas’ said

  187. jonas’

    or bad-request

  188. MattJ

    XEP-0004 says not-acceptable if data validation fails

  189. Zash

    What about if you don't include an optional <field/>?

  190. MattJ

    feature-not-implemented, not-acceptable and bad-request were my shortlist

  191. Zash

    MattJ, roll a dice

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  193. MattJ

    Do 22-sided dice exist?

  194. jonas’

    on every reply :)

  195. Zash

    6-sided and divide by 2?

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  197. pep.

    jonas’, I was thinking about 433, could it use order-by 413

  198. jonas’

    pep., the wire format?

  199. pep.


  200. jonas’


  201. jonas’

    though that’s not in a data form

  202. jonas’

    so it doesn’t really play well with that

  203. pep.

    Maybe that's a point against data forms :x

  204. Zash

    (query (form, order-by))

  205. MattJ settles on feature-not-implemented

  206. jonas’

    Zash, so you can’t configure order-by in the form then

  207. Zash

    MattJ: But isn't that for when you know about the feature, but you don't implement it?

  208. jonas’

    pep., I’d be fine with ditching data forms altogether

  209. Zash

    ... whyever you would ever do that

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  211. Zash

    jonas’, doing what MAM did backwards? :)

  212. Zash

    simple text nodes → FORMS!

  213. jonas’

    why did MAM do that?

  214. MattJ

    Zash, it's when you know about the namespace, but don't recognise the element (according to the RFC)

  215. Zash

    jonas’, summit consensus iirc

  216. jonas’


  217. MattJ

    XMPP needs ADRs

  218. jonas’

    we really really need Design Considerations sections in *all* the documents.

  219. Zash

    We really need to record the complete brain states of everyone involved

  220. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.xml#revision-history-v0.3 Oh no, I did this

  221. Zash


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  224. MattJ


  225. Zash

    So, Summit 2014 minutes?

  226. Syndace


  227. Zash

    Why are some events by year but Summit is numbered?

  228. pep.

    who knows..

  229. pep.

    CCC is also numbered

  230. Zash

    Eh do we even have minutes from then?

  231. pep.

    Helps seeing how old it is :p

  232. Zash


  233. MattJ

    That was the year of binary sponsorship

  234. Zash


  235. Zash

    jonas’, if there's a "why" recorded, it'd be there ↑

  236. MattJ

    I suspect it was probably just to avoid reinventing the wheel

  237. MattJ

    A query is a bunch of data slots, the client needs to discover what slots the server supports

  238. MattJ

    Each slot has a type

  239. MattJ

    Sounds very much like forms to me

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  242. Zash

    or schema

  243. Zash

    disco#info features

  244. Zash

    The XML bikeshed should be ${shuf -n colors.txt}

  245. Zash

    Forms are nice for ad-hoc stuff that might be shown to users

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  247. pep.

    And you still had to put RSM outside of the forms

  248. Zash

    I don't know anything that lets users type things into MAM search yet

  249. pep.

    Because it doesn't play well

  250. pep.

    (whatever the reason)

  251. Zash

    RSM being a thing seems logical to me

  252. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0413.html#MAM heh, does this even work

  253. pep.

    implemented anywhere?

  254. pep.

    Ah it's with pubsub

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  260. MattJ prepares a XEP-0313 PR

  261. pep.


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  265. Ge0rG

    Now is the best time to do a radical cut.

  266. Zash

    Magic per-device offline messages when?

  267. MattJ

    I gave up on that tactic

  268. MattJ

    The magic is too magical without a way to identify devices, which means clients would have to update to bind2/ng to take advantage of it - at which point they should just implement MAM and gain control over what they receive

  269. Zash

    Apparently the resource is now the device ID and things break if the server uses its spec-given right to set it to whatever it wants. :(

  270. MattJ

    What things?

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  273. Zash

    I ran into a bug where Dino doesn't deduplicate outgoing messages correctly because the messages from the archive has the server-issued resource but the local archive has the requested resource.

  274. jonas’

    obviously dinos fault

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  276. MattJ

    +1, file a bug and toggle Prosody's default to rewrite resources

  277. jonas’


  278. MattJ

    I've threatened it before and I'm semi-serious

  279. Zash

    This one weird trick. Client devs hate it! :D

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  281. MattJ

    Users are actually the main complainers in my experience (they want their resource to be Home, Work, or whatever)

  282. MattJ

    A simple device name spec would solve that

  283. MattJ

    Resources are session identifiers only

  284. Zash

    We have a device name spec

  285. Zash


  286. MattJ

    File bugs :)

  287. MattJ

    So PAM (Pubsub Archive Management) is taken...

  288. pep.

    I'd like to have resources use something like this by default: https://github.com/moby/moby/blob/master/pkg/namesgenerator/names-generator.go

  289. pep.

    human readable, easy to distinguish, not leaking more information than necessary

  290. MattJ

    Resources shouldn't be visible to users

  291. pep.

    yeah that's not for users

  292. jonas’

    MattJ, they are visible to admins reading logs though

  293. pep.

    for server admins to debug

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  298. Zash

    Inb4 resource := userpart + serverpart

  299. Zash

    We're not doing that.

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  303. MattJ

    Objections to adding an 'id' field in MAM to fetch a single message? or should that be a separate iq?

  304. MattJ

    Combining 'id' with any of the other options is likely useless

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  310. Kev

    Seems reasonable to me.

  311. edhelas

    mam:3 incoming ? 😱

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  313. MattJ

    Avoiding bumping the namespace, but yeah

  314. MattJ

    So get your requests in now before it's too late :)

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  316. pep.

    Please do post on the list for feedback maybe before merging the PR :)

  317. jonas’

    why, it’s Experimental :>

  318. MattJ


  319. pep.

    To avoid having to publish yet another revision.. not that revisions are expensive, but the effort of doing the PR is expensive

  320. pep.

    Once you're in.. you're in

  321. pep.

    might as well group related efforts

  322. MattJ

    Much evidence shows that revisions are expensive

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  324. pep.

    increasing a number?

  325. MattJ

    Doing the work

  326. pep.

    What I said, then :)

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  398. Neustradamus

    Interesting: https://github.com/mar-v-in/libomemo-c larma

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  418. Zash

    jonas’, does openssl even support EXPORT ciphers anymore?

  419. jonas’

    if you build it correctly, I think so

  420. jonas’

    (is "correctly" the right term?)

  421. pep.

    I think so. appropriatly?

  422. jonas’

    (this was a allusion to the fact that a libssl with EXPORT ciphers is most certainly built incorrectly nowadays)

  423. jonas’

    Zash, you could use the libssl from here: https://testssl.sh/

  424. Zash


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