XSF Discussion - 2020-04-02

  1. mukt2 has joined

  2. pdurbin has joined

  3. intosi has left

  4. pdurbin has left

  5. mukt2 has left

  6. Nekit has left

  7. stpeter has joined

  8. stpeter has left

  9. intosi has joined

  10. karoshi has left

  11. APach has left

  12. intosi has left

  13. moparisthebest has left

  14. moparisthebest has joined

  15. krauq has left

  16. mukt2 has joined

  17. jubalh has left

  18. lskdjf has left

  19. stpeter has joined

  20. stpeter has left

  21. david has left

  22. jubalh has joined

  23. Shell has joined

  24. mukt2 has left

  25. krauq has joined

  26. Shell has left

  27. Shell has joined

  28. intosi has joined

  29. arc has left

  30. arc has joined

  31. stpeter has joined

  32. stpeter has left

  33. arc has left

  34. arc has joined

  35. david has joined

  36. intosi has left

  37. arc has left

  38. arc has joined

  39. neshtaxmpp has left

  40. neshtaxmpp has joined

  41. neshtaxmpp has left

  42. neshtaxmpp has joined

  43. neshtaxmpp has left

  44. stpeter has joined

  45. stpeter has left

  46. pdurbin has joined

  47. krauq has left

  48. Yagiza has joined

  49. intosi has joined

  50. stpeter has joined

  51. stpeter has left

  52. krauq has joined

  53. intosi has left

  54. mimi89999 has left

  55. mimi89999 has joined

  56. mukt2 has joined

  57. intosi has joined

  58. mukt2 has left

  59. stpeter has joined

  60. stpeter has left

  61. intosi has left

  62. bear has left

  63. intosi has joined

  64. mukt2 has joined

  65. adiaholic_ has left

  66. adiaholic_ has joined

  67. stpeter has joined

  68. stpeter has left

  69. intosi has left

  70. Tobias has joined

  71. mukt2 has left

  72. andy has left

  73. mimi89999 has left

  74. bear has joined

  75. Douglas Terabyte has left

  76. Douglas Terabyte has joined

  77. david has left

  78. DebXWoody has joined

  79. david has joined

  80. mimi89999 has joined

  81. stpeter has joined

  82. stpeter has left

  83. bear has left

  84. andy has joined

  85. mukt2 has joined

  86. intosi has joined

  87. goffi has joined

  88. mukt2 has left

  89. intosi has left

  90. karoshi has joined

  91. stpeter has joined

  92. stpeter has left

  93. lorddavidiii has joined

  94. bear has joined

  95. intosi has joined

  96. emus has joined

  97. lovetox has joined

  98. bear has left

  99. intosi has left

  100. stpeter has joined

  101. stpeter has left

  102. DebXWoody has left

  103. DebXWoody has joined

  104. DebXWoody has left

  105. DebXWoody has joined

  106. DebXWoody has left

  107. DebXWoody has joined

  108. goffi has left

  109. waqas has left

  110. Sarathoma has joined

  111. Sarathoma


  112. pep.

    Sarathoma, hi

  113. Sarathoma

    Ok so I have a question

  114. pep.

    ask away

  115. Sarathoma

    how do I register for a jabber account

  116. Sarathoma

    like what site is if

  117. jonas’

    1. pick a provider 2. register with a provider 3. ??? 4. PROFIT

  118. pep.

    Sarathoma, "xmpp.org" doesn't provide accounts

  119. Sarathoma

    What’s a provider

  120. Sarathoma

    I just need a account with validcc . Su

  121. jonas’

    then make an account with htem

  122. jonas’

    they should have a website explaining how to do it

  123. jonas’

    just like email

  124. Sarathoma

    I cant.. says I need to have a jabber

  125. jonas’


  126. jonas’

    (sorry, it’s early morning here, I haven’t had my coffee yet, and I genuinely think that google can do a better job at that than I can right now)

  127. Sarathoma has left

  128. Ge0rG

    Also I'm pretty sure validcc is an illegal market site

  129. adiaholic_ has left

  130. adiaholic_ has joined

  131. mukt2 has joined

  132. jonas’

    I assumed the same

  133. wurstsalat has joined

  134. adiaholic_ has left

  135. adiaholic_ has joined

  136. bear has joined

  137. serge90 has joined

  138. Daniel

    > How to Create a Jabber Account: 15 Steps (with Pictures ... So many steps...

  139. mukt2 has left

  140. jonas’

    I should’ve sent them to Conversations.

  141. Ge0rG


  142. stpeter has joined

  143. stpeter has left

  144. serge90 has left

  145. intosi has joined

  146. emus

    > 🙈🙉🙊 Yes, I understand people may run into issues with xmpp or have questions. this should not be the case anymore, but is actually

  147. serge90 has joined

  148. bear has left

  149. serge90 has left

  150. serge90 has joined

  151. serge90 has left

  152. intosi has left

  153. serge90 has joined

  154. serge90 has left

  155. serge90 has joined

  156. !XSF_Martin has left

  157. !XSF_Martin has joined

  158. Nekit has joined

  159. emus has left

  160. intosi has joined

  161. serge90 has left

  162. serge90 has joined

  163. serge90 has left

  164. serge90 has joined

  165. debacle has joined

  166. serge90 has left

  167. serge90 has joined

  168. stpeter has joined

  169. stpeter has left

  170. serge90 has left

  171. serge90 has joined

  172. serge90 has left

  173. serge90 has joined

  174. serge90 has left

  175. serge90 has joined

  176. bear has joined

  177. robertooo has joined

  178. serge90 has left

  179. serge90 has joined

  180. serge90 has left

  181. serge90 has joined

  182. serge90 has left

  183. serge90 has joined

  184. eta has left

  185. eta has joined

  186. serge90 has left

  187. serge90 has joined

  188. bear has left

  189. stpeter has joined

  190. stpeter has left

  191. j.r has left

  192. serge90 has left

  193. serge90 has joined

  194. serge90 has left

  195. serge90 has joined

  196. serge90 has left

  197. serge90 has joined

  198. serge90 has left

  199. serge90 has joined

  200. j.r has joined

  201. emus has joined

  202. Half-Shot[m] has joined

  203. serge90 has left

  204. serge90 has joined

  205. stpeter has joined

  206. stpeter has left

  207. Douglas Terabyte has left

  208. serge90 has left

  209. serge90 has joined

  210. DebXWoody has left

  211. Guus


  212. Guus

    Let's try to improve that, instead of pointing people to third party instructions.

  213. serge90 has left

  214. serge90 has joined

  215. j.r has left

  216. j.r has joined

  217. jonas’

    having linked that would probalby also have been good

  218. emus

    Guus: Yes, I agree with you. We can link to thrid parties for sure. But it should be somthing there aswell 👍 I will look if I have some ideas

  219. mukt2 has joined

  220. Ge0rG

    isn't it perfect already?

  221. bear has joined

  222. goffi has joined

  223. Daniel has left

  224. Daniel has joined

  225. emus

    Ge0rG: Nothing is ever perfect 😉

  226. xsf has left

  227. serge90 has left

  228. serge90 has joined

  229. emus

    Ge0rG: How can it be perfect if they dont list Yaxim or Bruno??

  230. mukt2 has left

  231. Ge0rG

    I'll walk myself out.

  232. Douglas Terabyte has joined

  233. emus

    Ge0rG: What do you mean? 😅 (srsly I dont get it)

  234. Ge0rG

    emus: I was being sarcastic and failed

  235. emus

    One thing we definitively should do is to somehow put it the link to "Getting started" more present on the main page

  236. Daniel has left

  237. Daniel has joined

  238. emus

    Ge0rG: I thought so, but I still didnt understood it 😅

  239. emus

    Ge0rG: I thought so, but I still didnt understand it 😅

  240. pep.

    I'm afraid putting this on the main page is just going to accentuate the pains we've encountered just trying to sort out active/inactive implementations.. because we can't decide on what's neutral and what isn't

  241. Daniel has left

  242. Daniel has joined

  243. Ge0rG

    the only safe thing is to link to lists of lists of servers and clients.

  244. serge90 has left

  245. serge90 has joined

  246. Daniel has left

  247. Daniel has joined

  248. pep.

    I think that's a really bad idea

  249. pep.

    "here user, you might be able to find something in there somewhere, good luck"

  250. krauq has left

  251. larma has left

  252. Ge0rG

    pep.: I've argued that point in the past as well, yes. But listing implementations is an obvious violation of the XSF's neutrality.

  253. emus

    pep.: Then we can just do an "official" hostet thing of XSF if we want to be neutral

  254. Ge0rG

    I remember 404city being very loud about his server not being #1 on the server list on xmpp.org

  255. emus

    > pep.: Then we can just do an "official" hostet thing of XSF if we want to be neutral I know that provcative

  256. Daniel has left

  257. Daniel has joined

  258. Ge0rG

    And yes, I've given up getting yaxim and/or yax.im onto that list

  259. emus

    pep.: was not you state ment sorry

  260. jonas’

    emus, I think for this type of user, it’s more important to have a support room which is prominently linked and web-chat-joinable on search.jabber.network

  261. jonas’

    I’m 99% certain that those people join here via s.j.n

  262. jonas’

    the influx started when s.j.n added the webchat links

  263. Daniel has left

  264. Daniel has joined

  265. larma has joined

  266. serge90 has left

  267. Daniel

    Who is going to do the support for carders and terrorists tho?

  268. bear has left

  269. stpeter has joined

  270. stpeter has left

  271. emus

    > pep.: I've argued that point in the past as well, yes. But listing implementations is an obvious violation of the XSF's neutrality. But do list? 🤔

  272. serge90 has joined

  273. emus

    > Who is going to do the support for carders and terrorists tho? Cmon guys, actually we were talking about how to improve

  274. Ge0rG

    emus: surprisingly, xmpp is mostly used by the underground

  275. emus

    Ge0rG: I know, Im talking about the other side

  276. Daniel

    Well 80% of the traffic through the anon mucs is exactly those people

  277. Daniel

    > emus: surprisingly, xmpp is mostly used by the underground _people who have something to hide_

  278. emus

    I wonder what would happen when I ask a friend "Make a xmpp account and send me a message" nothing else

  279. Daniel has left

  280. Ge0rG

    people who have zero clue about opsec

  281. Daniel has joined

  282. Ge0rG

    emus: you'll get a long list of findings that are well-known and that nobody cares to fix

  283. emus

    Daniel: Yes, but crininals will always find a way. The discussion was about normal newcommers

  284. emus

    > emus: you'll get a long list of findings that are well-known and that nobody cares to fix What else?

  285. Ge0rG

    emus: we need a landing page with two buttons: "Are you a criminal? [ Yes ] [ No ]"

  286. emus

    > emus: you'll get a long list of findings that are well-known and that nobody cares to fix Ok, what else?

  287. emus

    .... thank you

  288. Daniel

    [yes] [no] [inshallah]

  289. Ge0rG

    the first hit for "Make an xmpp account" is xmpp.jp

  290. serge90 has left

  291. serge90 has joined

  292. lskdjf has joined

  293. Shell has left

  294. emus

    I wonder what they do right to pop up there

  295. xsf has joined

  296. j.r has left

  297. APach has joined

  298. j.r has joined

  299. serge90 has left

  300. adiaholic_ has left

  301. adiaholic_ has joined

  302. serge90 has joined

  303. Shell has joined

  304. serge90 has left

  305. serge90 has joined

  306. j.r has left

  307. j.r has joined

  308. monosys has joined

  309. monosys has left

  310. serge90 has left

  311. serge90 has joined

  312. j.r has left

  313. Steve Kille has left

  314. Ge0rG

    was there any progress on the badges front bTW?

  315. j.r has joined

  316. serge90 has left

  317. serge90 has joined

  318. DebXWoody has joined

  319. DebXWoody has left

  320. DebXWoody has joined

  321. Steve Kille has joined

  322. krauq has joined

  323. DebXWoody has left

  324. serge90 has left

  325. DebXWoody has joined

  326. serge90 has joined

  327. derdaniel has joined

  328. serge90 has left

  329. serge90 has joined

  330. derdaniel has left

  331. adiaholic_ has left

  332. adiaholic_ has joined

  333. APach has left

  334. pep.

    > Ge0rG> I've argued that point in the past as well, yes. But listing implementations is an obvious violation of the XSF's neutrality. hence why I think the XSF is not fit for this

  335. pep.

    the neutrality thing is a pain

  336. serge90 has left

  337. Ge0rG

    maybe we are doing it wrong anyway. how many people wake up to the question "how do I join xmpp?"

  338. serge90 has joined

  339. pep.

    Ge0rG: true

  340. pep.


  341. stpeter has joined

  342. stpeter has left

  343. emus

    > hence why I think the XSF is not fit for this Can you explain? At least for me? 😅😄

  344. serge90 has left

  345. emus

    > maybe we are doing it wrong anyway. how many people wake up to the question "how do I join xmpp?" So you think we need to advertise xmpp in general?

  346. serge90 has joined

  347. emus

    If so I think the atremots are hardly connected

  348. emus

    If so I think the attempts are hardly connected

  349. Ge0rG

    emus: no, we are targeting the wrong people

  350. Ge0rG

    emus: what we need is marketing to small/large teams interested in better control over the data and availability, like Slack / Teams

  351. Ge0rG

    emus: also we need easier ways for an existing user to invite friends

  352. Ge0rG

    like... XEP-0401

  353. Daniel

    And good clients

  354. bear has joined

  355. Ge0rG

    like Pidgin!

  356. Ge0rG

    I should write and deploy a mod_pidgin_warning module that will disco#info or 0092 query each new client and send a warning message to install dino/gajim

  357. serge90 has left

  358. serge90 has joined

  359. wurstsalat has left

  360. wurstsalat has joined

  361. emus

    Ge0rG, Daniel: ok, I will think about it. One picture I had in mind once I hear about the neutrality thing, and I dont wanna blame, was a bit the mother is not accepting their childs 🤔 I know thats likely wrong but just saying how it felt at one point. I also wonder how we want to be absolutely neutral? each member is follwing their own personal interests, in the end too, isnt it? Maybe we need to find a way to deal with not being neutral in the end? But I'm getting philosophical, I hope you can follow what I am wondering about ☺

  362. emus

    But still, good that we actually discuss that

  363. Ge0rG

    emus: the XSF is limiting the number of members from a single organization.

  364. Ge0rG

    emus: so having different member interests is a good thing because we can figure out what's best for all

  365. emus

    Ge0rG: Yes I got to know that 😅

  366. Ge0rG

    emus: :P

  367. emus

    Yes, true

  368. Ge0rG

    emus: also if you have three children, you can treat them all equally.. but the XSF has... dozens? hundreds?

  369. emus

    Yes, thats not the correct picture obviously. just a hint.

  370. serge90 has left

  371. serge90 has joined

  372. APach has joined

  373. emus

    With focusing to the standards in general it felts like the actual outcome are a bit apart, thats why I got that picture and was wondering since I knew about xmpp etc.. But I know this is intentional, but brings us back to the discussion start

  374. serge90 has left

  375. serge90 has joined

  376. bear has left

  377. Zash

    Start a separate organization, like a advocacy group? And a lobby group. And a software foundation.

  378. serge90 has left

  379. serge90 has joined

  380. stpeter has joined

  381. stpeter has left

  382. serge90 has left

  383. serge90 has joined

  384. LNJ has joined

  385. emus

    Zash: I know this is in the talk for long time, but I think its a waste of energy to split this

  386. DebXWoody has left

  387. DebXWoody has joined

  388. serge90 has left

  389. serge90 has joined

  390. DebXWoody has left

  391. DebXWoody has joined

  392. LNJ has left

  393. LNJ has joined

  394. serge90 has left

  395. serge90 has joined

  396. LNJ has left

  397. LNJ has joined

  398. adiaholic_ has left

  399. adiaholic_ has joined

  400. serge90 has left

  401. serge90 has joined

  402. serge90 has left

  403. serge90 has joined

  404. LNJ has left

  405. Link Mauve

    Hi ralphm, goffi, on https://xmpp.org/about/technology-overview.html the Idavoll component is now a dead link, and sat_pubsub is missing.

  406. Link Mauve

    You may want to change that.

  407. bear has joined

  408. serge90 has left

  409. serge90 has joined

  410. mukt2 has joined

  411. stpeter has joined

  412. stpeter has left

  413. Zash has left

  414. Zash has joined

  415. mukt2 has left

  416. bear has left

  417. andrey.g has left

  418. mukt2 has joined

  419. eevvoor has joined

  420. andrey.g has joined

  421. flow

    Is JC here? It appears that he is making changes to his ProtoXEP which already got proposed. IIRC we try to discourage that, for good reasons, as it introduces ambiguity which version of the XEP is under vote. But still, it shows that the ProtoXEP/inbox process should be reworked. I'd really like to have a phase where people can present their ProtoXEPs in HTML under a stable identifier while incooperating the feedback from the community (i.e., what JC's appearantly currently doing)

  422. ralphm

    Link Mauve: oh, I need to fix that. Looks like a configuration error. Thanks.

  423. Zash

    Check the Converse.js room?

  424. Zash

    flow, ↑

  425. Zash

    Is Prosody missing from the list of "servers [that] include built-in support for PubSub or PEP" ?

  426. jubalh has left

  427. flow

    Zash, thanks

  428. stpeter has joined

  429. stpeter has left

  430. jonas’

    flow, we could, with minimal effort, modify the process to simply allow development as ProtoXEP under 0.0.x (where the editor will just hit Merge if it builds) and have the author explicitly ask council to vote on it.

  431. Max has left

  432. flow

    jonas’, i think what we really need is a central platform where people can work on ProtoXEPs, similar to IETF I-D system

  433. Ge0rG

    like... xsf github?

  434. Max has joined

  435. flow

    Ge0rG, the point is that you want those ProtoXEPs rendered, not in XML

  436. Zash

    and stable identifiers for versions

  437. jonas’

    Ge0rG, so?

  438. jonas’

    flow, so?

  439. flow

    Zash, ideally stable identifiers to immutable versions yes

  440. flow

    but I could live without it for a start

  441. jonas’

    editor hits merge, possibly even with a bot which auto-merges all the stuff in inbox/

  442. jonas’

    (if it builds)

  443. jonas’

    ah, stable identifiers for versions in inbox are a different and tricky requirement

  444. jonas’

    not going to happen without incremental builds in my book

  445. jonas’

    and incremental builds are not going to happen with the current infrastructure

  446. flow

    I don't think they are tricky or something, just require a bit more effort

  447. Zash

    something something dvcs revision hash

  448. Ge0rG

    what's wrong with having the author work on the XML off-repo while the proto XEP is being voted on?

  449. flow

    what we could do easily is mkdir incubating-xeps/ in the xeps repo

  450. jonas’

    Ge0rG, nothing, but that’s not what people want

  451. Max has left

  452. Ge0rG

    I don't get people

  453. jonas’

    flow, why that if we already have mkdir inbox?

  454. flow

    and allow people to submit xeps there and have those xeps published via the normal git xml xeps to html process

  455. Max has joined

  456. jonas’

    that’s what’s happening already

  457. jonas’

    we just don’t have HTML-rendered-versioning for those

  458. flow

    jonas’, i would keep inbox/ as it is: for protoxep submission

  459. jonas’

    I don’t think we need a separation

  460. jonas’


  461. flow

    I think we do, while it also think it's KISS

  462. jonas’

    alright, that doesn’t matter either way

  463. jonas’

    if we want those to be HTML-rendered versioned, it’s going to be a pain

  464. jonas’

    or even HTML-rendered is going to be a pain for fast-moving incubations

  465. jonas’

    with a 1h+ build process

  466. jonas’

    with a 1h+ cloud build process

  467. flow

    Ge0rG, what's wrong is that authors do usually not do it. And even if, it would be nice if the XSF provided facilities for that, so that not every author has to do it

  468. flow

    jonas’: cp protoxep-0.0.1.xml protoxep-0.0.2.xml ?

  469. Zash

    Just do the magic xml trick that makes https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.xml work and render

  470. jonas’

    flow, not under my watch

  471. Zash

    (this being the actual XEP file)

  472. jonas’

    flow, not on my watch

  473. flow

    editor just has to ensure that existing things do not get modified after they have been published

  474. jonas’

    we have a version control system

  475. jonas’

    I’m not going to endorse keeping different versions of the same document in the same commit

  476. flow

    ahh, there goes the KISS principle, na? ;)

  477. Ge0rG

    we need per-xep git repositories!

  478. Zash

    Is there some web server magic you could do to get stuff out of the repo directly and render it?

  479. jonas’

    Zash, not going to happen

  480. jonas’

    at least that’s my last bit of info from iteam; no builds on the server.

  481. flow

    jonas’, I note that we do exactly this for attic XEPs

  482. jonas’

    flow, yes, I find it terrible

  483. jonas’

    I don’t want this in the xeps repository, period.

  484. Zash

    jonas’: I mean as closely as possible to serve data straight out of the git repo, no "builds".

  485. jubalh has joined

  486. jonas’

    Zash, I guess it still qualifies if you run an XSLT on the server side.

  487. Zash

    Unless you insist on application of xslt in the web server counting as building :)

  488. flow

    I don't see an issue, has served us well in the past years, and we could establish something for unsubmitted ProtoXEPs within a few hours. And it doesn't mean that we can not change/improve the process later on

  489. jubalh has left

  490. jonas’

    might even be worse, because it happens on each request

  491. Zash

    jonas’, or clientside! which works already!

  492. jonas’

    flow, note that xep-attic even has rendered HTML files in it, which is worse. xep-attic is a place I don’t look too closely at and which I don’t treat as a place for version control, but as an append-only storage. See the commit log if you wanna get an idea. xeps is for version control. I’m not going to endorse it being abused as a data dump, even in a subdirectory.

  493. jonas’

    If you want a free-for-all playground space that can probably be done in a separate repository.

  494. jonas’

    though I’m still not sure it’s a good idea, and I’m hell as sure not maintaining it manually

  495. serge90 has left

  496. flow

    I could live with that. The infrastructure for that is already there, and I would be willing to maintain it

  497. jonas’

    it isn’t

  498. jonas’

    and to be honest, before we think about adding new infrastructure, we should get the existing stuff in order

  499. jonas’

    we still don’t have a working registry

  500. jonas’

    and I’m not happy with editor team members adding more stuff to maintain, infrastructure wise, before we have the actually right now needed extremely important stuff broken for years

  501. serge90 has joined

  502. flow

    well I do consider xep development of upmost importance

  503. jonas’

    I think having our current xeps usable is more important than the legally questionable corner case of developing a XEP outside XSF IPR, but sure

  504. flow

    legally questionable?

  505. jonas’

    sure; anyone contributing to the discussion in protoxep stage could claim IP on the modified document

  506. jonas’

    since the protoxep only enters the regime of the XSF IPR statement once it has been approved by $approvingBody

  507. jonas’

    that’d have to be sorted out, too

  508. flow

    but discussion in protoxep stage is already happening

  509. flow

    (even if I would consider it an issue or even legally questionable)

  510. jonas’

    that something is happening doesn’t make it legally unquestionable.

  511. jonas’

    doesn’t mean we have to officially endorse it until that is sorted out

  512. flow

    besides, we could simply have the IPR statement being taken on submission

  513. jonas’

    we could, though that might raise the bar for some submitters

  514. jubalh has joined

  515. jonas’

    they’re giving away their IP before they know whether the document will even be handled under the XSF umbrella

  516. flow

    how does that raise the bar, first time submitters always have to sign IPR

  517. jonas’

    but that’s really not a question the editors should handle

  518. bear has joined

  519. jonas’

    flow, they have to, but the IP signover only happens on approval as Experimental

  520. jonas’

    if the approvingbody rejects your XEP, you keep your IP

  521. jonas’

    that won’t work if we need the IPR to be effective before approval because of the incubator space

  522. jonas’

    because then non-author people have already contributed under IPR rules.

  523. jonas’

    again, #notmydepartment editor wise

  524. jonas’

    going back to work

  525. flow

    be it then, if this is an issue for the submitter, then he/she can't use the incubator space

  526. jonas’

    to summarise my position: incubator space is nice-to-have, needs IPR resolution, not going to endorse any infrastructure which keeps revisions as individual files in xeps, not endorsing anyone working on additional document infrastructure until we have our already broken existing infrastructure sorted out.

  527. jonas’


  528. flow

    it's also news to me that the IPR is only assigned on acceptance

  529. Guus

    flow dwd is looking for you in open_chat (he can't join this muc for some reason)

  530. adiaholic_ has left

  531. adiaholic_ has joined

  532. bear has left

  533. jubalh has left

  534. stpeter has joined

  535. stpeter has left

  536. jubalh has joined

  537. Zash has left

  538. Zash has joined

  539. jubalh has left

  540. jubalh has joined

  541. jubalh has left

  542. jubalh has joined

  543. jubalh has left

  544. jubalh has joined

  545. krauq has left

  546. jubalh has left

  547. adiaholic_ has left

  548. adiaholic_ has joined

  549. jubalh has joined

  550. adiaholic_ has left

  551. adiaholic_ has joined

  552. mukt2 has left

  553. Nekit has left

  554. jubalh has left

  555. jubalh has joined

  556. pdurbin has left

  557. krauq has joined

  558. bear has joined

  559. calvin has joined

  560. pep.

    > jonas’> I think for this type of user, it’s more important to have a support room which is prominently linked and web-chat-joinable on search.jabber.network > I’m 99% certain that those people join here via s.j.n I'm not sure that's an easy correlation to make. I'd be interested in stats of people clicking on webchat links, or stats for xmpp.org/chat referrers

  561. jonas’

    is xmpp.org/chat linked anywhere?

  562. pep.

    s.j.n search results?

  563. pep.

    and wiki

  564. pep.

    and.. xmpp.org

  565. jonas’

    didn’t know about the last two

  566. Zash

    The JS snippet that handles ?room was lost tho

  567. neshtaxmpp has joined

  568. stpeter has joined

  569. stpeter has left

  570. bear has left

  571. calvin has left

  572. calvin has joined

  573. Ge0rG

    Guus [13:46]: > he can't join this muc for some reason I put my bet on asymmetric s2s

  574. lorddavidiii has left

  575. emus has left

  576. emus has joined

  577. Yagiza has left

  578. Yagiza has joined

  579. xelxebar has left

  580. mukt2 has joined

  581. lorddavidiii has joined

  582. Yagiza has left

  583. Yagiza has joined

  584. eevvoor has left

  585. mukt2 has left

  586. mukt2 has joined

  587. pep.


  588. Seve

    Hello, all good? :)

  589. pep.

    MattJ, Guus

  590. ralphm bangs gavel

  591. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  592. ralphm

    Hi! Hope you are all fine. Who do we have?

  593. Guus


  594. MattJ


  595. eevvoor has joined

  596. ralphm

    All here. Yay

  597. MattJ


  598. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  599. pep.

    Same as usual, I can do afterwards if nobody..

  600. ralphm

    Thanks pep.

  601. pep.

    (note: I don't like taking minutes as much as the next one)

  602. ralphm

    2. Jonas => iteam

  603. ralphm

    I motion we add Jonas Schäfer to our Infrastructure Team.

  604. ralphm


  605. pep.


  606. Guus


  607. stpeter has joined

  608. stpeter has left

  609. Seve


  610. MattJ


  611. ralphm

    Motion carries. Congrats jonas’, and good luck!

  612. pep.

    Thanks jonas’ for MattJ :P

  613. Seve

    Haha, same! Glad to see some more help

  614. ralphm

    3. Commitments

  615. ralphm

    Regarding sponsorship, I've _just_ sent the updated text for the e-mail. Sorry about the delay. I'll send it out tomorrow.

  616. pep.

    Regarding comms person, I learned from peter that we don't have any template contract and we'll probably need to hire someone to hire someone (a lawyer)

  617. ralphm

    I'll also modify it slightly to request new sponsors, and send it to members@, standards@, operators@.

  618. ralphm

    Indeed. However:

  619. Seve

    > Regarding comms person, I learned from peter that we don't have any template contract and we'll probably need to hire someone to hire someone (a lawyer) I would prefer to focus on defining the job itself and responsibilities

  620. mukt2 has left

  621. ralphm

    I've received a suggestion for a company that would be willing to help out. I've been introduced, but will follow up first before I can share more.

  622. pep.

    Seve, we can do both in parallel

  623. jonas’

    oh dear

  624. bear has joined

  625. jonas’

    thanks for the trust

  626. pep.

    We should know how to do contracts anyway

  627. Seve

    Just to know what to expect, if it fits the budget, etc

  628. pep.

    Seve, yes that's the information I'm trying to gather if you read the trello task :)

  629. Guus

    ralphm that's exciting - in what capacity can they help exactly?

  630. ralphm

    jonas’, I'm going to assume this is still about adding you to iteam.

  631. ralphm

    Guus: helping out with marketing

  632. Guus

    I should've been more clear in my question 🙂

  633. pep.

    I've asked marketing people I know as well, started drafting requirements for the job position

  634. ralphm

    I think it is smart to research all of the above.

  635. ralphm

    We can use all the help.

  636. Guus

    is this a marketing-oriented org? What's their motiviation to help?

  637. ralphm

    Thanks pep. for looking into it.

  638. pep.

    I'll need a marketing person anyway to help me draft this more thoroughly, hence my asking marketing people :)

  639. ralphm

    Guus: a company familiar with XMPP and the XSF, that would like to contribute. I'll share more at a later time.

  640. pep.

    And re lawyer, I also asked people who could know, but if anybody also has an idea I'll take it

  641. Guus

    why I'm asking: if they wan to contribute/sponsor, we might not need to go down the (lengthy/cumbersome) path of having to draw up contracts.

  642. pep.

    Guus, I think that's a good skill to have anyway tbh

  643. pep.

    If it's not marketing it'll be something else

  644. Guus

    I'd prefer to cross that bridge when we need to.

  645. Seve

    ralphm: sounds very exciting! Hoping you can share a bit more soon

  646. pep.

    Ok I can bring the bridge to us if you insist

  647. Guus

    I'm not against anyone volunteering 🙂

  648. ralphm


  649. pep.

    I meant I can put more work on board :P

  650. ralphm

    Ok. Ongoing.

  651. ralphm

    4. Infrastructure Team budget

  652. ralphm

    While I am not against providing a budget, I'd like to have an overview of a plan for our infrastructure. When we need to pay for services or hardware, getting an OK can be done quickly, and if even more speed is needed, I can approve in my role on the Executive Committee.

  653. ralphm

    I.e. I have no idea of what the size of the budget should be.

  654. Guus

    Basically, you're making a distinction between "can iteam spend money" and "can iteam have a budget of their own"

  655. ralphm


  656. ralphm

    And my answers right now are: yes and maybe.

  657. Guus

    I'm thinking that it is desirable for iteam to have the option to spend money to improve things, if they deem that beneficial.

  658. MattJ

    There isn't a settled plan yet (partly because I was hoping we would hear something about the down server by now)

  659. ralphm

    One problem is that right now, officially, only Board or an Executive Director, can enter into agreements.

  660. Seve

    The one thing that worries me more is have some "emergency money" for iteam Lead to spend in case of what happened recently. Unless we want that person to pay upfront and then have XSF reimburse the amount.

  661. MattJ

    But we now have a DigitalOcean account that is linked to the XSF account

  662. MattJ

    (bank account)

  663. MattJ

    so although that was done to resolve an emergency situation, I feel like some clarity would be good

  664. ralphm

    Which I approved, so that's ok.

  665. Seve

    Apart from that, I expect expenses should be more or less the same, on a certain period of time and services.

  666. pep.

    Seve, I think that's a pretty meh precedure and iteam should at least be able to spend some money itself

  667. ralphm

    pep., I don't disagree that they should. I'd like to get an idea of what kind of cost.

  668. pep.

    And I'm fine if that means giving the iteam lead a way to enter into agreements

  669. adiaholic_ has left

  670. adiaholic_ has joined

  671. MattJ

    It's looking likely that we may want to add one or two more small servers, and so I want to make sure that any spending growth in this area is acknowledged and accounted for

  672. pep.


  673. pep.

    ralphm, ^

  674. bear has left

  675. bear has joined

  676. MattJ

    I plan to work more (incl. with jonas’) to come up with a plan, so if the answer is "come back when you have a plan", that's fine with me

  677. Guus

    I'm kind of ambiguous about iteam getting a budget. I do not want to lightly change who in the XSF gets to approve entering the XSF into agreements.

  678. MattJ

    What kind of agreements?

  679. Guus

    I fully trust the current iteam lead - but we do not know what will happen in the future.

  680. ralphm

    pep., adding a server is not entering into new agreements, IMO, so MattJ/iteam should be able to do this.

  681. pep.


  682. pep.

    Guus, then "we'll cross that bridge when we get there"? :P

  683. Guus

    agreements putting cost or responsibilities on the XSF, MattJ

  684. MattJ

    But e.g. if we wanted to sign up for a third-party monitoring service?

  685. ralphm

    We've in general given iteam room to do whatever is required to run our infrastructure. If that incurs cost, that should be fine.

  686. ralphm

    MattJ, you'd need an ok.

  687. Guus

    sure - I'm totally happy with money being spend.

  688. MattJ

    Ok, good to know

  689. ralphm

    And if that needs to be done in between Board meetings, I'm sure we can.

  690. pep.

    Maybe we could start using the list someday..

  691. ralphm

    pep., in this particular case, all of the infra was out, so I had direct chats with MattJ :-D

  692. ralphm

    yay for federation

  693. Guus

    back to the issue at hand: do we need an iteam budget?

  694. Zash

    (list was still up tho)

  695. ralphm

    Zash: (oh, right)

  696. MattJ

    Guus, it sounds like we (iteam) need to come up with a concrete plan and then get a budget approved for just that plan

  697. ralphm

    Guus: I'm happy to establish a upper bound, but I cannot tell how high it should be

  698. MattJ

    and again if we want to add anything else

  699. Guus

    MattJ I have no issue with that at all (and I'm not saying I have an issue with having a budget either)

  700. ralphm

    MattJ: or, once you have that plan, use that as the basis for a budget, and adjust if needed.

  701. MattJ

    I'm fine with that, fwiw, just seems a little more work, but what else would we discuss at meetings? :)

  702. MattJ

    So let's put this off for now

  703. ralphm


  704. ralphm

    5. AOB

  705. ralphm


  706. Guus


  707. Guus

    student application phase closed

  708. Guus

    I think I've seen around 8 proposals, of which a couple were of very low quality.

  709. Guus

    but I've seen a couple that looked promising too.

  710. Guus

    (Note that I only glanced at them)

  711. Guus

    but anyways, I wanted to share that update. We have some activity there, we might even get a couple of projects.

  712. Guus

    (that's it)

  713. Seve

    Thank you for sharing Guus!

  714. ralphm

    Great, thanks Guus.

  715. Ge0rG

    what was the last state re Compliance Badges?

  716. ralphm

    That we tried contacting the designed, and haven't succeeded yet.

  717. ralphm


  718. ralphm

    I'll have another go with that.

  719. Ge0rG

    maybe we should move on with the ugly non-designed badges in parallel? just in case?

  720. ralphm

    I'll try for a little bit more, and we can consider alternatives after. I know it has taken long.

  721. Ge0rG

    ralphm: thanks very much!

  722. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  723. ralphm


  724. pep.


  725. Guus


  726. ralphm

    7. Close

  727. ralphm

    Thanks for all being here despite DST changes :-D

  728. pep.


  729. Seve

    Super, thank you all :)

  730. ralphm bangs gavel

  731. MattJ

    Thanks all

  732. Guus

    luckily we're all in the same DST-boat 🙂

  733. ralphm

    Yeah, and arc wasn't around 😋

  734. ralphm runs

  735. Guus

    stop rocking the boat, ralphm 🙂

  736. Guus

    sponsorship message looks good to me ralphm

  737. ralphm


  738. stpeter has joined

  739. stpeter has left

  740. Zash has left

  741. Zash has joined

  742. Marc has left

  743. Marc has joined

  744. pdurbin has joined

  745. Wojtek has joined

  746. lskdjf has left

  747. stpeter has joined

  748. stpeter has left

  749. pdurbin has left

  750. Max has left

  751. lskdjf has joined

  752. Max has joined

  753. eevvoor has left

  754. alexis has left

  755. alexis has joined

  756. alexis has left

  757. alexis has joined

  758. mukt2 has joined

  759. Douglas Terabyte has left

  760. Douglas Terabyte has joined

  761. mukt2 has left

  762. j.r has left

  763. debacle has left

  764. bear has left

  765. eevvoor has joined

  766. wurstsalat has left

  767. Steve Kille has left

  768. Steve Kille has joined

  769. adiaholic_ has left

  770. adiaholic_ has joined

  771. mukt2 has joined

  772. eevvoor has left

  773. mukt2 has left

  774. bear has joined

  775. Neustradamus has left

  776. Neustradamus has joined

  777. j.r has joined

  778. govanify has left

  779. govanify has joined

  780. pdurbin has joined

  781. winfried has left

  782. winfried has joined

  783. bear has left

  784. adiaholic_ has left

  785. wurstsalat has joined

  786. pdurbin has left

  787. adiaholic_ has joined

  788. david has left

  789. neshtaxmpp has left

  790. neshtaxmpp has joined

  791. krauq has left

  792. krauq has joined

  793. werdan has joined

  794. mukt2 has joined

  795. david has joined

  796. bear has joined

  797. mukt2 has left

  798. adiaholic_ has left

  799. adiaholic_ has joined

  800. mukt2 has joined

  801. bear has left

  802. Shell has left

  803. j.r has left

  804. mukt2 has left

  805. winfried has left

  806. winfried has joined

  807. adiaholic_ has left

  808. adiaholic_ has joined

  809. alexis has left

  810. LNJ has joined

  811. werdan has left

  812. adiaholic_ has left

  813. adiaholic_ has joined

  814. j.r has joined

  815. Shell has joined

  816. bear has joined

  817. pdurbin has joined

  818. waqas has joined

  819. mukt2 has joined

  820. bear has left

  821. pdurbin has left

  822. Max has left

  823. Max has joined

  824. mukt2 has left

  825. serge90 has left

  826. serge90 has joined

  827. Shell has left

  828. serge90 has left

  829. serge90 has joined

  830. Nekit has joined

  831. arc has left

  832. arc has joined

  833. calvin has left

  834. bear has joined

  835. serge90 has left

  836. serge90 has joined

  837. Yagiza has left

  838. serge90 has left

  839. neshtaxmpp has left

  840. mukt2 has joined

  841. bear has left

  842. serge90 has joined

  843. calvin has joined

  844. serge90 has left

  845. serge90 has joined

  846. arc has left

  847. arc has joined

  848. mukt2 has left

  849. serge90 has left

  850. serge90 has joined

  851. serge90 has left

  852. serge90 has joined

  853. serge90 has left

  854. serge90 has joined

  855. adiaholic_ has left

  856. adiaholic_ has joined

  857. serge90 has left

  858. serge90 has joined

  859. serge90 has left

  860. serge90 has joined

  861. bear has joined

  862. neshtaxmpp has joined

  863. serge90 has left

  864. serge90 has joined

  865. krauq has left

  866. serge90 has left

  867. serge90 has joined

  868. serge90 has left

  869. serge90 has joined

  870. krauq has joined

  871. mukt2 has joined

  872. bear has left

  873. goffi has left

  874. DebXWoody has left

  875. serge90 has left

  876. serge90 has joined

  877. mukt2 has left

  878. serge90 has left

  879. serge90 has joined

  880. serge90 has left

  881. serge90 has joined

  882. calvin has left

  883. calvin has joined

  884. calvin has left

  885. calvin has joined

  886. arc has left

  887. arc has joined

  888. serge90 has left

  889. Shell has joined

  890. serge90 has joined

  891. Max has left

  892. Max has joined

  893. serge90 has left

  894. serge90 has joined

  895. adiaholic_ has left

  896. adiaholic_ has joined

  897. serge90 has left

  898. serge90 has joined

  899. Tobias has left

  900. alexis has joined

  901. serge90 has left

  902. serge90 has joined

  903. emus has left

  904. Daniel has left

  905. bear has joined

  906. serge90 has left

  907. serge90 has joined

  908. Daniel has joined

  909. serge90 has left

  910. serge90 has joined

  911. calvin has left

  912. calvin has joined

  913. serge90 has left

  914. serge90 has joined

  915. mukt2 has joined

  916. emus has joined

  917. bear has left

  918. arc has left

  919. arc has joined

  920. serge90 has left

  921. serge90 has joined

  922. j.r has left

  923. j.r has joined

  924. mukt2 has left

  925. moparisthebest has left

  926. serge90 has left

  927. serge90 has joined

  928. Daniel has left

  929. bear has joined

  930. Daniel has joined

  931. serge90 has left

  932. serge90 has joined

  933. robertooo has left

  934. robertooo has joined

  935. serge90 has left

  936. serge90 has joined

  937. serge90 has left

  938. serge90 has joined

  939. Marc has left

  940. serge90 has left

  941. serge90 has joined

  942. pdurbin has joined

  943. serge90 has left

  944. serge90 has joined

  945. neshtaxmpp has left

  946. neshtaxmpp has joined

  947. calvin has left

  948. serge90 has left

  949. serge90 has joined

  950. serge90 has left

  951. serge90 has joined

  952. mukt2 has joined

  953. pdurbin has left

  954. serge90 has left

  955. serge90 has joined

  956. adiaholic_ has left

  957. alameyo has left

  958. alameyo has joined

  959. pdurbin has joined

  960. mukt2 has left

  961. serge90 has left

  962. serge90 has joined

  963. pdurbin has left

  964. pdurbin has joined

  965. serge90 has left

  966. serge90 has joined

  967. david has left

  968. lovetox has left

  969. lovetox has joined

  970. serge90 has left

  971. serge90 has joined

  972. david has joined

  973. moparisthebest has joined

  974. pdurbin has left

  975. serge90 has left

  976. serge90 has joined

  977. krauq has left

  978. paul has left

  979. krauq has joined

  980. mimi89999 has left

  981. mimi89999 has joined

  982. serge90 has left

  983. lorddavidiii has left

  984. serge90 has joined

  985. serge90 has left

  986. serge90 has joined

  987. mimi89999 has left

  988. mimi89999 has joined

  989. serge90 has left

  990. serge90 has joined

  991. mimi89999 has left

  992. mimi89999 has joined

  993. emus has left

  994. mimi89999 has left

  995. mimi89999 has joined

  996. serge90 has left

  997. mimi89999 has left

  998. mimi89999 has joined

  999. serge90 has joined

  1000. Shell has left

  1001. xelxebar has joined

  1002. Wojtek has left

  1003. Wojtek has joined

  1004. serge90 has left

  1005. serge90 has joined

  1006. andrey.g has left

  1007. Wojtek has left

  1008. serge90 has left

  1009. serge90 has joined

  1010. mimi89999 has left

  1011. mimi89999 has joined

  1012. mimi89999 has left

  1013. mimi89999 has joined

  1014. mimi89999 has left

  1015. mimi89999 has joined

  1016. serge90 has left

  1017. serge90 has joined

  1018. Alex has left

  1019. Alex has joined

  1020. mimi89999 has left

  1021. mimi89999 has joined

  1022. waqas has left

  1023. Nekit has left

  1024. serge90 has left

  1025. serge90 has joined

  1026. bear has left