XSF Discussion - 2020-04-02

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  111. Sarathoma Hi
  112. pep. Sarathoma, hi
  113. Sarathoma Ok so I have a question
  114. pep. ask away
  115. Sarathoma how do I register for a jabber account
  116. Sarathoma like what site is if
  117. jonas’ 1. pick a provider 2. register with a provider 3. ??? 4. PROFIT
  118. pep. Sarathoma, "xmpp.org" doesn't provide accounts
  119. Sarathoma What’s a provider
  120. Sarathoma I just need a account with validcc . Su
  121. jonas’ then make an account with htem
  122. jonas’ they should have a website explaining how to do it
  123. jonas’ just like email
  124. Sarathoma I cant.. says I need to have a jabber
  125. jonas’ https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jabber%20account
  126. jonas’ (sorry, it’s early morning here, I haven’t had my coffee yet, and I genuinely think that google can do a better job at that than I can right now)
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  128. Ge0rG Also I'm pretty sure validcc is an illegal market site
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  132. jonas’ I assumed the same
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  138. Daniel > How to Create a Jabber Account: 15 Steps (with Pictures ... So many steps...
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  140. jonas’ I should’ve sent them to Conversations.
  141. Ge0rG 🙈🙉🙊
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  146. emus > 🙈🙉🙊 Yes, I understand people may run into issues with xmpp or have questions. this should not be the case anymore, but is actually
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  211. Guus https://xmpp.org/getting-started/
  212. Guus Let's try to improve that, instead of pointing people to third party instructions.
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  217. jonas’ having linked that would probalby also have been good
  218. emus Guus: Yes, I agree with you. We can link to thrid parties for sure. But it should be somthing there aswell 👍 I will look if I have some ideas
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  220. Ge0rG isn't it perfect already?
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  225. emus Ge0rG: Nothing is ever perfect 😉
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  229. emus Ge0rG: How can it be perfect if they dont list Yaxim or Bruno??
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  231. Ge0rG I'll walk myself out.
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  233. emus Ge0rG: What do you mean? 😅 (srsly I dont get it)
  234. Ge0rG emus: I was being sarcastic and failed
  235. emus One thing we definitively should do is to somehow put it the link to "Getting started" more present on the main page
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  238. emus Ge0rG: I thought so, but I still didnt understood it 😅
  239. emus Ge0rG: I thought so, but I still didnt understand it 😅
  240. pep. I'm afraid putting this on the main page is just going to accentuate the pains we've encountered just trying to sort out active/inactive implementations.. because we can't decide on what's neutral and what isn't
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  243. Ge0rG the only safe thing is to link to lists of lists of servers and clients.
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  248. pep. I think that's a really bad idea
  249. pep. "here user, you might be able to find something in there somewhere, good luck"
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  252. Ge0rG pep.: I've argued that point in the past as well, yes. But listing implementations is an obvious violation of the XSF's neutrality.
  253. emus pep.: Then we can just do an "official" hostet thing of XSF if we want to be neutral
  254. Ge0rG I remember 404city being very loud about his server not being #1 on the server list on xmpp.org
  255. emus > pep.: Then we can just do an "official" hostet thing of XSF if we want to be neutral I know that provcative
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  258. Ge0rG And yes, I've given up getting yaxim and/or yax.im onto that list
  259. emus pep.: was not you state ment sorry
  260. jonas’ emus, I think for this type of user, it’s more important to have a support room which is prominently linked and web-chat-joinable on search.jabber.network
  261. jonas’ I’m 99% certain that those people join here via s.j.n
  262. jonas’ the influx started when s.j.n added the webchat links
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  267. Daniel Who is going to do the support for carders and terrorists tho?
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  271. emus > pep.: I've argued that point in the past as well, yes. But listing implementations is an obvious violation of the XSF's neutrality. But do list? 🤔
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  273. emus > Who is going to do the support for carders and terrorists tho? Cmon guys, actually we were talking about how to improve
  274. Ge0rG emus: surprisingly, xmpp is mostly used by the underground
  275. emus Ge0rG: I know, Im talking about the other side
  276. Daniel Well 80% of the traffic through the anon mucs is exactly those people
  277. Daniel > emus: surprisingly, xmpp is mostly used by the underground _people who have something to hide_
  278. emus I wonder what would happen when I ask a friend "Make a xmpp account and send me a message" nothing else
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  280. Ge0rG people who have zero clue about opsec
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  282. Ge0rG emus: you'll get a long list of findings that are well-known and that nobody cares to fix
  283. emus Daniel: Yes, but crininals will always find a way. The discussion was about normal newcommers
  284. emus > emus: you'll get a long list of findings that are well-known and that nobody cares to fix What else?
  285. Ge0rG emus: we need a landing page with two buttons: "Are you a criminal? [ Yes ] [ No ]"
  286. emus > emus: you'll get a long list of findings that are well-known and that nobody cares to fix Ok, what else?
  287. emus .... thank you
  288. Daniel [yes] [no] [inshallah]
  289. Ge0rG the first hit for "Make an xmpp account" is xmpp.jp
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  294. emus I wonder what they do right to pop up there
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  314. Ge0rG was there any progress on the badges front bTW?
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  334. pep. > Ge0rG> I've argued that point in the past as well, yes. But listing implementations is an obvious violation of the XSF's neutrality. hence why I think the XSF is not fit for this
  335. pep. the neutrality thing is a pain
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  337. Ge0rG maybe we are doing it wrong anyway. how many people wake up to the question "how do I join xmpp?"
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  339. pep. Ge0rG: true
  340. pep. maybe
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  343. emus > hence why I think the XSF is not fit for this Can you explain? At least for me? 😅😄
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  345. emus > maybe we are doing it wrong anyway. how many people wake up to the question "how do I join xmpp?" So you think we need to advertise xmpp in general?
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  347. emus If so I think the atremots are hardly connected
  348. emus If so I think the attempts are hardly connected
  349. Ge0rG emus: no, we are targeting the wrong people
  350. Ge0rG emus: what we need is marketing to small/large teams interested in better control over the data and availability, like Slack / Teams
  351. Ge0rG emus: also we need easier ways for an existing user to invite friends
  352. Ge0rG like... XEP-0401
  353. Daniel And good clients
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  355. Ge0rG like Pidgin!
  356. Ge0rG I should write and deploy a mod_pidgin_warning module that will disco#info or 0092 query each new client and send a warning message to install dino/gajim
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  361. emus Ge0rG, Daniel: ok, I will think about it. One picture I had in mind once I hear about the neutrality thing, and I dont wanna blame, was a bit the mother is not accepting their childs 🤔 I know thats likely wrong but just saying how it felt at one point. I also wonder how we want to be absolutely neutral? each member is follwing their own personal interests, in the end too, isnt it? Maybe we need to find a way to deal with not being neutral in the end? But I'm getting philosophical, I hope you can follow what I am wondering about ☺
  362. emus But still, good that we actually discuss that
  363. Ge0rG emus: the XSF is limiting the number of members from a single organization.
  364. Ge0rG emus: so having different member interests is a good thing because we can figure out what's best for all
  365. emus Ge0rG: Yes I got to know that 😅
  366. Ge0rG emus: :P
  367. emus Yes, true
  368. Ge0rG emus: also if you have three children, you can treat them all equally.. but the XSF has... dozens? hundreds?
  369. emus Yes, thats not the correct picture obviously. just a hint.
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  373. emus With focusing to the standards in general it felts like the actual outcome are a bit apart, thats why I got that picture and was wondering since I knew about xmpp etc.. But I know this is intentional, but brings us back to the discussion start
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  377. Zash Start a separate organization, like a advocacy group? And a lobby group. And a software foundation.
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  385. emus Zash: I know this is in the talk for long time, but I think its a waste of energy to split this
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  405. Link Mauve Hi ralphm, goffi, on https://xmpp.org/about/technology-overview.html the Idavoll component is now a dead link, and sat_pubsub is missing.
  406. Link Mauve You may want to change that.
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  421. flow Is JC here? It appears that he is making changes to his ProtoXEP which already got proposed. IIRC we try to discourage that, for good reasons, as it introduces ambiguity which version of the XEP is under vote. But still, it shows that the ProtoXEP/inbox process should be reworked. I'd really like to have a phase where people can present their ProtoXEPs in HTML under a stable identifier while incooperating the feedback from the community (i.e., what JC's appearantly currently doing)
  422. ralphm Link Mauve: oh, I need to fix that. Looks like a configuration error. Thanks.
  423. Zash Check the Converse.js room?
  424. Zash flow, ↑
  425. Zash Is Prosody missing from the list of "servers [that] include built-in support for PubSub or PEP" ?
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  427. flow Zash, thanks
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  430. jonas’ flow, we could, with minimal effort, modify the process to simply allow development as ProtoXEP under 0.0.x (where the editor will just hit Merge if it builds) and have the author explicitly ask council to vote on it.
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  432. flow jonas’, i think what we really need is a central platform where people can work on ProtoXEPs, similar to IETF I-D system
  433. Ge0rG like... xsf github?
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  435. flow Ge0rG, the point is that you want those ProtoXEPs rendered, not in XML
  436. Zash and stable identifiers for versions
  437. jonas’ Ge0rG, so?
  438. jonas’ flow, so?
  439. flow Zash, ideally stable identifiers to immutable versions yes
  440. flow but I could live without it for a start
  441. jonas’ editor hits merge, possibly even with a bot which auto-merges all the stuff in inbox/
  442. jonas’ (if it builds)
  443. jonas’ ah, stable identifiers for versions in inbox are a different and tricky requirement
  444. jonas’ not going to happen without incremental builds in my book
  445. jonas’ and incremental builds are not going to happen with the current infrastructure
  446. flow I don't think they are tricky or something, just require a bit more effort
  447. Zash something something dvcs revision hash
  448. Ge0rG what's wrong with having the author work on the XML off-repo while the proto XEP is being voted on?
  449. flow what we could do easily is mkdir incubating-xeps/ in the xeps repo
  450. jonas’ Ge0rG, nothing, but that’s not what people want
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  452. Ge0rG I don't get people
  453. jonas’ flow, why that if we already have mkdir inbox?
  454. flow and allow people to submit xeps there and have those xeps published via the normal git xml xeps to html process
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  456. jonas’ that’s what’s happening already
  457. jonas’ we just don’t have HTML-rendered-versioning for those
  458. flow jonas’, i would keep inbox/ as it is: for protoxep submission
  459. jonas’ I don’t think we need a separation
  460. jonas’ KISS
  461. flow I think we do, while it also think it's KISS
  462. jonas’ alright, that doesn’t matter either way
  463. jonas’ if we want those to be HTML-rendered versioned, it’s going to be a pain
  464. jonas’ or even HTML-rendered is going to be a pain for fast-moving incubations
  465. jonas’ with a 1h+ build process
  466. jonas’ with a 1h+ cloud build process
  467. flow Ge0rG, what's wrong is that authors do usually not do it. And even if, it would be nice if the XSF provided facilities for that, so that not every author has to do it
  468. flow jonas’: cp protoxep-0.0.1.xml protoxep-0.0.2.xml ?
  469. Zash Just do the magic xml trick that makes https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.xml work and render
  470. jonas’ flow, not under my watch
  471. Zash (this being the actual XEP file)
  472. jonas’ flow, not on my watch
  473. flow editor just has to ensure that existing things do not get modified after they have been published
  474. jonas’ we have a version control system
  475. jonas’ I’m not going to endorse keeping different versions of the same document in the same commit
  476. flow ahh, there goes the KISS principle, na? ;)
  477. Ge0rG we need per-xep git repositories!
  478. Zash Is there some web server magic you could do to get stuff out of the repo directly and render it?
  479. jonas’ Zash, not going to happen
  480. jonas’ at least that’s my last bit of info from iteam; no builds on the server.
  481. flow jonas’, I note that we do exactly this for attic XEPs
  482. jonas’ flow, yes, I find it terrible
  483. jonas’ I don’t want this in the xeps repository, period.
  484. Zash jonas’: I mean as closely as possible to serve data straight out of the git repo, no "builds".
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  486. jonas’ Zash, I guess it still qualifies if you run an XSLT on the server side.
  487. Zash Unless you insist on application of xslt in the web server counting as building :)
  488. flow I don't see an issue, has served us well in the past years, and we could establish something for unsubmitted ProtoXEPs within a few hours. And it doesn't mean that we can not change/improve the process later on
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  490. jonas’ might even be worse, because it happens on each request
  491. Zash jonas’, or clientside! which works already!
  492. jonas’ flow, note that xep-attic even has rendered HTML files in it, which is worse. xep-attic is a place I don’t look too closely at and which I don’t treat as a place for version control, but as an append-only storage. See the commit log if you wanna get an idea. xeps is for version control. I’m not going to endorse it being abused as a data dump, even in a subdirectory.
  493. jonas’ If you want a free-for-all playground space that can probably be done in a separate repository.
  494. jonas’ though I’m still not sure it’s a good idea, and I’m hell as sure not maintaining it manually
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  496. flow I could live with that. The infrastructure for that is already there, and I would be willing to maintain it
  497. jonas’ it isn’t
  498. jonas’ and to be honest, before we think about adding new infrastructure, we should get the existing stuff in order
  499. jonas’ we still don’t have a working registry
  500. jonas’ and I’m not happy with editor team members adding more stuff to maintain, infrastructure wise, before we have the actually right now needed extremely important stuff broken for years
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  502. flow well I do consider xep development of upmost importance
  503. jonas’ I think having our current xeps usable is more important than the legally questionable corner case of developing a XEP outside XSF IPR, but sure
  504. flow legally questionable?
  505. jonas’ sure; anyone contributing to the discussion in protoxep stage could claim IP on the modified document
  506. jonas’ since the protoxep only enters the regime of the XSF IPR statement once it has been approved by $approvingBody
  507. jonas’ that’d have to be sorted out, too
  508. flow but discussion in protoxep stage is already happening
  509. flow (even if I would consider it an issue or even legally questionable)
  510. jonas’ that something is happening doesn’t make it legally unquestionable.
  511. jonas’ doesn’t mean we have to officially endorse it until that is sorted out
  512. flow besides, we could simply have the IPR statement being taken on submission
  513. jonas’ we could, though that might raise the bar for some submitters
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  515. jonas’ they’re giving away their IP before they know whether the document will even be handled under the XSF umbrella
  516. flow how does that raise the bar, first time submitters always have to sign IPR
  517. jonas’ but that’s really not a question the editors should handle
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  519. jonas’ flow, they have to, but the IP signover only happens on approval as Experimental
  520. jonas’ if the approvingbody rejects your XEP, you keep your IP
  521. jonas’ that won’t work if we need the IPR to be effective before approval because of the incubator space
  522. jonas’ because then non-author people have already contributed under IPR rules.
  523. jonas’ again, #notmydepartment editor wise
  524. jonas’ going back to work
  525. flow be it then, if this is an issue for the submitter, then he/she can't use the incubator space
  526. jonas’ to summarise my position: incubator space is nice-to-have, needs IPR resolution, not going to endorse any infrastructure which keeps revisions as individual files in xeps, not endorsing anyone working on additional document infrastructure until we have our already broken existing infrastructure sorted out.
  527. jonas’ 73
  528. flow it's also news to me that the IPR is only assigned on acceptance
  529. Guus flow dwd is looking for you in open_chat (he can't join this muc for some reason)
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  560. pep. > jonas’> I think for this type of user, it’s more important to have a support room which is prominently linked and web-chat-joinable on search.jabber.network > I’m 99% certain that those people join here via s.j.n I'm not sure that's an easy correlation to make. I'd be interested in stats of people clicking on webchat links, or stats for xmpp.org/chat referrers
  561. jonas’ is xmpp.org/chat linked anywhere?
  562. pep. s.j.n search results?
  563. pep. and wiki
  564. pep. and.. xmpp.org
  565. jonas’ didn’t know about the last two
  566. Zash The JS snippet that handles ?room was lost tho
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  573. Ge0rG Guus [13:46]: > he can't join this muc for some reason I put my bet on asymmetric s2s
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  587. pep. !
  588. Seve Hello, all good? :)
  589. pep. MattJ, Guus
  590. ralphm bangs gavel
  591. ralphm 0. Welcome
  592. ralphm Hi! Hope you are all fine. Who do we have?
  593. Guus .
  594. MattJ Hey
  595. eevvoor has joined
  596. ralphm All here. Yay
  597. MattJ :)
  598. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  599. pep. Same as usual, I can do afterwards if nobody..
  600. ralphm Thanks pep.
  601. pep. (note: I don't like taking minutes as much as the next one)
  602. ralphm 2. Jonas => iteam
  603. ralphm I motion we add Jonas Schäfer to our Infrastructure Team.
  604. ralphm +1
  605. pep. +1
  606. Guus +1
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  609. Seve +1
  610. MattJ +1
  611. ralphm Motion carries. Congrats jonas’, and good luck!
  612. pep. Thanks jonas’ for MattJ :P
  613. Seve Haha, same! Glad to see some more help
  614. ralphm 3. Commitments
  615. ralphm Regarding sponsorship, I've _just_ sent the updated text for the e-mail. Sorry about the delay. I'll send it out tomorrow.
  616. pep. Regarding comms person, I learned from peter that we don't have any template contract and we'll probably need to hire someone to hire someone (a lawyer)
  617. ralphm I'll also modify it slightly to request new sponsors, and send it to members@, standards@, operators@.
  618. ralphm Indeed. However:
  619. Seve > Regarding comms person, I learned from peter that we don't have any template contract and we'll probably need to hire someone to hire someone (a lawyer) I would prefer to focus on defining the job itself and responsibilities
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  621. ralphm I've received a suggestion for a company that would be willing to help out. I've been introduced, but will follow up first before I can share more.
  622. pep. Seve, we can do both in parallel
  623. jonas’ oh dear
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  625. jonas’ thanks for the trust
  626. pep. We should know how to do contracts anyway
  627. Seve Just to know what to expect, if it fits the budget, etc
  628. pep. Seve, yes that's the information I'm trying to gather if you read the trello task :)
  629. Guus ralphm that's exciting - in what capacity can they help exactly?
  630. ralphm jonas’, I'm going to assume this is still about adding you to iteam.
  631. ralphm Guus: helping out with marketing
  632. Guus I should've been more clear in my question 🙂
  633. pep. I've asked marketing people I know as well, started drafting requirements for the job position
  634. ralphm I think it is smart to research all of the above.
  635. ralphm We can use all the help.
  636. Guus is this a marketing-oriented org? What's their motiviation to help?
  637. ralphm Thanks pep. for looking into it.
  638. pep. I'll need a marketing person anyway to help me draft this more thoroughly, hence my asking marketing people :)
  639. ralphm Guus: a company familiar with XMPP and the XSF, that would like to contribute. I'll share more at a later time.
  640. pep. And re lawyer, I also asked people who could know, but if anybody also has an idea I'll take it
  641. Guus why I'm asking: if they wan to contribute/sponsor, we might not need to go down the (lengthy/cumbersome) path of having to draw up contracts.
  642. pep. Guus, I think that's a good skill to have anyway tbh
  643. pep. If it's not marketing it'll be something else
  644. Guus I'd prefer to cross that bridge when we need to.
  645. Seve ralphm: sounds very exciting! Hoping you can share a bit more soon
  646. pep. Ok I can bring the bridge to us if you insist
  647. Guus I'm not against anyone volunteering 🙂
  648. ralphm :-D
  649. pep. I meant I can put more work on board :P
  650. ralphm Ok. Ongoing.
  651. ralphm 4. Infrastructure Team budget
  652. ralphm While I am not against providing a budget, I'd like to have an overview of a plan for our infrastructure. When we need to pay for services or hardware, getting an OK can be done quickly, and if even more speed is needed, I can approve in my role on the Executive Committee.
  653. ralphm I.e. I have no idea of what the size of the budget should be.
  654. Guus Basically, you're making a distinction between "can iteam spend money" and "can iteam have a budget of their own"
  655. ralphm yes
  656. ralphm And my answers right now are: yes and maybe.
  657. Guus I'm thinking that it is desirable for iteam to have the option to spend money to improve things, if they deem that beneficial.
  658. MattJ There isn't a settled plan yet (partly because I was hoping we would hear something about the down server by now)
  659. ralphm One problem is that right now, officially, only Board or an Executive Director, can enter into agreements.
  660. Seve The one thing that worries me more is have some "emergency money" for iteam Lead to spend in case of what happened recently. Unless we want that person to pay upfront and then have XSF reimburse the amount.
  661. MattJ But we now have a DigitalOcean account that is linked to the XSF account
  662. MattJ (bank account)
  663. MattJ so although that was done to resolve an emergency situation, I feel like some clarity would be good
  664. ralphm Which I approved, so that's ok.
  665. Seve Apart from that, I expect expenses should be more or less the same, on a certain period of time and services.
  666. pep. Seve, I think that's a pretty meh precedure and iteam should at least be able to spend some money itself
  667. ralphm pep., I don't disagree that they should. I'd like to get an idea of what kind of cost.
  668. pep. And I'm fine if that means giving the iteam lead a way to enter into agreements
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  671. MattJ It's looking likely that we may want to add one or two more small servers, and so I want to make sure that any spending growth in this area is acknowledged and accounted for
  672. pep. Sure
  673. pep. ralphm, ^
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  676. MattJ I plan to work more (incl. with jonas’) to come up with a plan, so if the answer is "come back when you have a plan", that's fine with me
  677. Guus I'm kind of ambiguous about iteam getting a budget. I do not want to lightly change who in the XSF gets to approve entering the XSF into agreements.
  678. MattJ What kind of agreements?
  679. Guus I fully trust the current iteam lead - but we do not know what will happen in the future.
  680. ralphm pep., adding a server is not entering into new agreements, IMO, so MattJ/iteam should be able to do this.
  681. pep. k
  682. pep. Guus, then "we'll cross that bridge when we get there"? :P
  683. Guus agreements putting cost or responsibilities on the XSF, MattJ
  684. MattJ But e.g. if we wanted to sign up for a third-party monitoring service?
  685. ralphm We've in general given iteam room to do whatever is required to run our infrastructure. If that incurs cost, that should be fine.
  686. ralphm MattJ, you'd need an ok.
  687. Guus sure - I'm totally happy with money being spend.
  688. MattJ Ok, good to know
  689. ralphm And if that needs to be done in between Board meetings, I'm sure we can.
  690. pep. Maybe we could start using the list someday..
  691. ralphm pep., in this particular case, all of the infra was out, so I had direct chats with MattJ :-D
  692. ralphm yay for federation
  693. Guus back to the issue at hand: do we need an iteam budget?
  694. Zash (list was still up tho)
  695. ralphm Zash: (oh, right)
  696. MattJ Guus, it sounds like we (iteam) need to come up with a concrete plan and then get a budget approved for just that plan
  697. ralphm Guus: I'm happy to establish a upper bound, but I cannot tell how high it should be
  698. MattJ and again if we want to add anything else
  699. Guus MattJ I have no issue with that at all (and I'm not saying I have an issue with having a budget either)
  700. ralphm MattJ: or, once you have that plan, use that as the basis for a budget, and adjust if needed.
  701. MattJ I'm fine with that, fwiw, just seems a little more work, but what else would we discuss at meetings? :)
  702. MattJ So let's put this off for now
  703. ralphm Ok.
  704. ralphm 5. AOB
  705. ralphm ?
  706. Guus GSoC
  707. Guus student application phase closed
  708. Guus I think I've seen around 8 proposals, of which a couple were of very low quality.
  709. Guus but I've seen a couple that looked promising too.
  710. Guus (Note that I only glanced at them)
  711. Guus but anyways, I wanted to share that update. We have some activity there, we might even get a couple of projects.
  712. Guus (that's it)
  713. Seve Thank you for sharing Guus!
  714. ralphm Great, thanks Guus.
  715. Ge0rG what was the last state re Compliance Badges?
  716. ralphm That we tried contacting the designed, and haven't succeeded yet.
  717. ralphm designer
  718. ralphm I'll have another go with that.
  719. Ge0rG maybe we should move on with the ugly non-designed badges in parallel? just in case?
  720. ralphm I'll try for a little bit more, and we can consider alternatives after. I know it has taken long.
  721. Ge0rG ralphm: thanks very much!
  722. ralphm 6. Date of Next
  723. ralphm +1W
  724. pep. yep
  725. Guus wfm
  726. ralphm 7. Close
  727. ralphm Thanks for all being here despite DST changes :-D
  728. pep. Thanks
  729. Seve Super, thank you all :)
  730. ralphm bangs gavel
  731. MattJ Thanks all
  732. Guus luckily we're all in the same DST-boat 🙂
  733. ralphm Yeah, and arc wasn't around 😋
  734. ralphm runs
  735. Guus stop rocking the boat, ralphm 🙂
  736. Guus sponsorship message looks good to me ralphm
  737. ralphm tx
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