XSF Discussion - 2020-04-13

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  80. Maranda Hmm was WebSocket forgot on purpose? 👨‍💻🤔
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  133. emus Maranda: Du musst dich klarer ausdrücken und am besten auf englisch. sonst geh mal hier hin:
  134. emus xmpp:xmpp-de@conference.conversations.im?join
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  141. Syndace what xD
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  143. Syndace Yeah Maranda, stop speaking such unclear german!!!
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  148. !XSF_Martin emus: afaik he is Italian so he'll probably not understand you, when you talk german.
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  151. emus Was early, somehow I took it for German, and the rest if it as an English quote, like: Hmm was? "WebSocket forgot on purpose?" now its more clear^^
  152. Maranda . . .
  153. !XSF_Martin 😂
  154. Daniel Was are you taking about?
  155. !XSF_Martin Das should be clear now!
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  164. flow Die Bart, Die
  165. emus Daniel: Misunderstanding, nevermind
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  294. jonas’ fun
  295. jonas’ XEP-0191 says to discover support on the server, not on the account.
  296. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0191.html#disco
  297. jonas’ which is kind of meh if the feature isn’t offered on all accounts
  298. jonas’ it’s in Draft. do we want to fix this?
  299. Daniel Yes
  300. jonas’ alright, drafting a PR
  301. Daniel And/or offering on the server could maybe mean something different if you are the admin of that server
  302. jonas’ the yaks, they need shaving
  303. Zash Like the hack I wrote where if a service admin blocks a bare host JID, s2s to/from that server is blocked?
  304. Daniel For example
  305. Zash I wouldn't mind 191 in MUCs (and MIX?) either.
  306. Zash Where's the XEP that descibes versioned namespaces?
  307. Zash Surely it's not just a ProtoXEP in Inbox? https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/nsver.html
  308. Zash Can't find anything with "namespace" or "version*" in the title tho
  309. jonas’ probably XEP-0001 or XEP-0143?
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  311. jonas’ there we go: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/924
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  313. Zash Lots of old things only advertise on the host JID
  314. Daniel I think in general it should be announced on the jid you'll end up talking to
  315. Zash Agree. Historical things tho.
  316. jonas’ neat, prosody only advertises it on the domain
  317. Zash What's that, Prosody follows the specification? Oh no!
  318. jonas’ no wait
  319. jonas’ that’s me not having it loaded in my e2etest prosody
  320. Daniel For most things I just check both in Conversations 🤷‍♂️
  321. jonas’ still not offered on the account though :(
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  323. jonas’ Daniel, fun fact, in openfire you may end up with a situation where the feature is advertised on the domain, but you can’t use it because it’s not enabled for your account.
  324. Zash jonas’: Prosody does what the current version of the XEP says, and it says to advertise on the host but you talk to the no-to/own account JID
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  327. jonas’ Zash, not complaining
  328. jonas’ just unhappy that I can’t resolve the issue I’m facing in any way right now
  329. Zash Write a 3 line module for it :P
  330. jonas’ Zash, that doesn’t solve the actual issue (broken XEP-0191)
  331. Zash Fun
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  398. Maranda I'm not sure what I do either...
  399. Maranda (for xep-0191)
  400. Maranda host disco#info together with the deprecated privacy lists
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  420. flow Zash> Lots of old things only advertise on the host JID which is often the way to go IMHO
  421. Zash Advertising on the JID you talk to seems the sensible thing.
  422. flow Zash, makes it harder to get a survey which features are actually implemented, and I don't see an advantage
  423. Zash OTOH, the caps has you can send in stream:features doesn't cover features on your account.
  424. jonas’ flow, the advantage is that a feature can be offered on a per-account basis
  425. jonas’ without having to do terrible things to your disco#info handlers ;)
  426. flow I also think that the semantic of a feature annoucement is "this implementation does implement this feature", not "this feature is provided to your account"
  427. flow jonas’, I do not think that this is true
  428. Maranda and the use case of not providing blocking command to certain accounts is...?
  429. Maranda and the advantage of not providing blocking command to certain accounts is...?
  430. flow Maranda, I do not think that it is sensible to discuss specific extensions at this stage
  431. Maranda flow, but the whole discussion was about blocking command in the first place
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  434. flow Maranda, right, but it is something we should discuss in general
  435. flow because it is *everywhere* in xmpp
  436. flow and the discussion also appears every 2-3 years
  437. flow and the discussion where to announce features also appears every 2-3 years
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  440. Zash Let's schedule a 2-day discussion of it at Summit 2022 then!
  441. Zash The Final Discussion
  442. Maranda well flow while I see the benefit for other things, I think that extensions that sensibly shouldn't be offered on a per-account basis just should end with the features on the host.
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  446. flow Maranda, I think there is some misunderstanding? I am also arguing in favor of annoucing features on the host (but for a different reason)
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  452. Maranda flow, I don't think there's any misunderstanding tbh, just explaining why my comment wasn't completely... "unsensible", imho.
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  454. flow Maranda, from PoV it is unsensible because I don't think that you can ever be 100% sure that a given feature will *always* provided to *all* users
  455. flow Maranda, from my PoV it is unsensible because I don't think that you can ever be 100% sure that a given feature will *always* provided to *all* users
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  457. flow but since I don't think that disco#info features are there to tell you if you are allowed to use a certain feature…
  458. Maranda ditto
  459. lovetox flow but then you have terible discovery of what you are allowed to use
  460. lovetox and thats what clients need everyday, compared to survey bots that look what server implement these days
  461. lovetox and thats about the only usecase i see for announcing anything on the host
  462. lovetox so in light that there is no perfect solution, lets go with what is needed by most people
  463. flow lovetox, yes I think we are really bad when it comes to discovering if one is allowed to perform action X. Just look at muc room creation for example
  464. flow but, annoucing a feature of muc#room_creation_allowed on the MUC jid is probably a terrible idea
  465. flow especially if it is returned depending on the entity which queries
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  468. flow disco#info results should not differ depending on the entity which issued the request
  469. lovetox why?
  470. flow well caps for one
  471. lovetox thats all? because that does not seem like such a big problem
  472. lovetox 1. we have no caps for host anyway
  473. flow I think it is in general a bad pattern
  474. lovetox 2. for muc service also not
  475. flow plus if you do it there, people will think it is a good idea to do the same with entities that broadcast caps
  476. lovetox yeah i agree flow, but in the absence of something better
  477. lovetox we have to use whats there
  478. Zash caps from the host can be in <stream:features>
  479. flow besides, if we further assume that "you are allowed to perform action X" may change over time, one may want a push mechanism for that, to inform clients
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  481. Zash like, an authz error reply if you try isn't enough?
  482. flow lovetox, I'd argue we use the force of XMPPs extensibility to create something suitable
  483. lovetox flow we dont have caps for host and services, so on every new start of a client you have to query anyway
  484. flow Zash, it is in most cases I think
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  487. lovetox and services and host dont change account features on a daily basis
  488. flow Zash, after all xep45 says not-allowed on room creation attempt, and I haven't heard someone asking for a feature to discover if an entity is allowed to create a room prior room creation
  489. lovetox so we can live with it
  490. flow that doesn't mean that something like that wouldn't be nice to have
  491. flow that doesn't mean that something like that wouldn't be nice to have though
  492. flow lovetox, as Zash said, we do have caps on xmpp services
  493. Zash But no caps for your own account features. :/
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  496. flow Zash, right, but I really think this shouldn't be called features then, but instead maybe "capabilities" (or something)
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  498. Zash I mean as in disco#info
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  500. Maranda Zash, but if you advertise only on stream features clients will have to cache caps? (not that possibly they don't do that already)
  501. flow Zash, I know, and I mean that I think the mechanism to discover if you are allowed to perform action X should potentially not be build upon disco#info features
  502. lovetox i feel its really late to discover this now
  503. Zash flow: Makes sense.
  504. lovetox and there is no pressing issue to change what we currently do
  505. lovetox bad pattern is not a big motivation
  506. Maranda I'm not sure why presenting errors to users should be such a bad thing, beside most clients aren't using human readable conditions.
  507. Maranda I'm not sure why presenting errors to users should be such a bad thing, beside that most clients not using human readable conditions.
  508. flow Maranda, irregardless, it would be nice if we could do better, no?
  509. Maranda And checking everytime to prevent errors being thrown, doesn't sound very good practice wise.
  510. Maranda flow, doing better is nice but I don't think this is the bit that should be modified tbh.
  511. Maranda That's all.
  512. Maranda or s/that should/that needs to/
  513. Zash Someone invent authzcaps
  514. Zash Related wishlist: Separate pure machine-readable features from strings like identity names that can be customized and vary per client or deployment.
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  518. pep. MattJ, re RAI, to unsubscribe you must send an unavailable presence to the MUC service, so that's after the first unavailable presence to leave the MUC?
  519. pep. Or can I just declare an interest to any MUC even if I've never joined them at all
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  521. pep. Also maybe the NS can be updated to something not xmpp:prosody.im
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  523. Zash pep.: Isn't that up to the editors?
  524. pep. the ns?
  525. pep. To update it?
  526. Zash Yeah. At least when a ProtoXEP is accepted as Experimental
  527. eta wait what's RAI
  528. Zash I might be using a private ns for my half-done proposal things
  529. pep. It's the first time during "editor career" that I come across a protoXEP that uses non-urn:xmpp ns
  530. pep. eta, it's at the PR stage for now, future protoXEP
  531. eta pep.: link?
  532. jonas’ oh sexy, I should port my biboumi MR to that at some point
  533. pep. Zash, but I think you're right in that you're not technically allowed to use urn:xmpp as long as it's not a XEP. But I find it silly to not allow this in protoXEPs
  534. pep. eta, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/925/files
  535. MattJ pep.: I don't understand your question about unavailable presence
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  537. pep. I don't understand under what condition I can use RAI.
  538. pep. (or not use it)
  539. pep. And under what condition I can unset it
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  541. eta what's its intended usecase?
  542. MattJ The intended use case is stated in the intro and repeated elsewhere in the document
  543. MattJ E.g. requirements
  544. pep. MattJ, "A client may unsubscribe from activity indicators by sending an unavailable presence to the MUC service.", at this point the user is already not joined right?
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  546. MattJ Probably not
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  548. pep. Can I also initiate rai when joined?
  549. MattJ Yes
  550. pep. What happens when I leave the room, does that also cancel rai?
  551. MattJ No
  552. Zash MUC service = bare host JID of the MUC?
  553. MattJ Yes
  554. pep. why?
  555. MattJ Why not?
  556. pep. because this has proved to cause weird issues in the past, and it works just fine addressing the room directly
  557. MattJ Which room?
  558. pep. a room
  559. Zash As punishment for whoever decided that room@host could be a MUC service?
  560. pep. any room
  561. pep. You want rai for multiple rooms just send that to multiple rooms?
  562. MattJ Read the requirements
  563. pep. What if I want rai for all rooms minus one
  564. MattJ There aren't many
  565. pep. I kinda think it's meh to assume nowadays that bare host is a muc component
  566. pep. Especially coming from prosody people :P
  567. Zash That's required by XEP-0045
  568. MattJ There are many things that are addressed to the MUC service in XEP-0045
  569. MattJ Also ad-hoc, etc.
  570. pep. ad-hoc on MUC is a thing in some implementation?
  571. pep. Ah biboumi maybe
  572. MattJ Of course, why not?
  573. pep. I've been waiting for that in prosody. Actually that's wrong, I've been waiting for ad-hoc on rooms
  574. MattJ Waiting? It can't be done now?
  575. pep. Anyway the unsubscribe thing is confusing
  576. MattJ I only added it at the last minute for completeness
  577. MattJ Anticipating that someone would say "but how do you unsubscribe?"
  578. Zash pep.: You'll have to wait for Prosodys ad-hoc to support commands on anything but host JIDs then.
  579. MattJ Now it's confusing to be able to unsubscribe :)
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  582. pep. Also "activity" doesn't seem very much defined
  583. MattJ "there are new messages in a room since the last time the user was joined there"
  584. pep. "A MUC may already send out-of-band notifications to users who are not currently joined if e.g. they are mentioned using &xep0372;" what's this then
  585. MattJ That seems a fine definition to me. Implementation specifics are indeed not defined, that's fairly intentional
  586. pep. I thought that was just another example of what it could be
  587. MattJ No?
  588. pep. So 372 is mentioned for no reason?
  589. MattJ It's an example
  590. pep. ok so it's all implementation defined :/
  591. MattJ I really think you're missing the point of this
  592. pep. I'm trying to understand why it's useful, even more so now that you're saying it's implementation defined
  593. pep. Don't get me wrong it's not just this XEP
  594. MattJ XEP-0372 is used for pushing notifications from a MUC to a user, about messages the MUC thinks the user should be notified about
  595. pep. (proto, whatever)
  596. MattJ But there are messages where the user is not mentioned
  597. pep. hmm, shortcuts? 372 is used to find out who to notify via some other mechanism
  598. MattJ and the user may still want to know whether there are any of those, or if the room has just been idle
  599. pep. I see
  600. pep. Makes a bit more sense
  601. MattJ "A MUC may already send out-of-band notifications to users who are not currently joined if e.g. they are mentioned using &xep0372;."
  602. MattJ "However a MUC typically won't forward other kinds of messages unless the user is joined."
  603. MattJ ^ Problem statement
  604. pep. Yeah.. we're all good at language all the time every time..
  605. pep. I'm still meh on the "implementation detail" thing, what is a "message" now :x
  606. MattJ Which "implementation detail" thing?
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  610. pep. "Implementation specifics are indeed not defined, that's fairly intentional"
  611. MattJ What would you define?
  612. MattJ Above what is already defined
  613. pep. what's a "message", or rather what's a "relevant" message, I guess would be more accurate here (something that other XEPs might be able to use)
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  615. pep. I guess you're not gonna send RIA for chatstates
  616. MattJ So you want it to list every possible kind of message in the XEP? Every combination of payloads?
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  619. pep. Well it's already being done in implementations having to know what a "relevant" message is, I don't see why not
  620. Zash Has <body> There, done.
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  622. pep. :)
  623. MattJ The Prosody implementation depends on MAM on the MUC room, and it's considered activity if it gets archived
  624. Zash which boils down to "has <body>"
  625. MattJ So I could add a dependency on MAM, and basically spec this implementation
  626. pep. If there had to be such a XEP, I'd decouple it from MAM surely
  627. MattJ But I don't want to do that, because I think that's a very rigid/brittle approach that would be too limiting
  628. MattJ I think anyone who implements and deploys this would be able to make the right choice here
  629. MattJ If they don't, their implementation is screwed up and they'll see that
  630. MattJ But still, no harm done otherwise
  631. MattJ Specs matter for interoperability, this isn't an interop issue
  632. pep. Yes I think it is. I can't use the same client and expect the same behaviour if I use two different server implementations. Or maybe that's not called interop but it's as bad
  633. Zash Is this about to become another of those things like carbons, mam, csi etc where people disagree on how strict the rules should be?
  634. pep. It works in closed environments where you're only gonna use one implementation anyway
  635. pep. Zash, looks like the same problem to me
  636. Zash Someone™ should write down some guidance, either in xep-0226 or some new XEP.
  637. pep. Anyway.. afk rebooting server
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  643. MattJ Zash: nice list of mostly XEPs written by me :)
  644. Zash has left
  645. MattJ Because yes, I do believe in defining what's necessary for interop and no more - at least in the early stages
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  648. MattJ Things can always be tightened up later based on implementation experience, or requirements for specific deployments
  649. MattJ As long as the semantics are well definee
  650. MattJ As long as the semantics are well defined
  651. pep. well I don't think they are, well-defined semantics here would be defining "relevant" I'd say
  652. MattJ I also like to believe that most developers do have common sense
  653. pep. I don't recall off-hand if MAM provides guidelines at least? or carbons or..
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  655. pep. carbons has some kind of rules right?
  656. pep. CSI?
  657. MattJ No, this is a protocol for telling the client to tell the user that something happened in the room
  658. pep. Anything?
  659. MattJ If the server thinks an affiliation change is important to that user, it should be allowed to send them a notification
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  661. pep. fwiw, I firmly believe a user should be able to filter the kind of notification they get, so putting this in the hands of the server says this is already not for me
  662. MattJ Then feel free to not deploy it, but I'm deploying this next week
  663. MattJ There are early-stage plugins for Prosody, Openfire and Converse.js. It fills a need. If it doesn't fill your need, feel free to spec and implement something more complex that allows clients to specify filter rules.
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  665. MattJ I have a long list of XEPs that I intend to write and publish over the coming weeks... and this is by far the simplest and least controversial, so we're off to a good start :)
  666. Zash haha
  667. pep. :P
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