XSF Discussion - 2020-04-20

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  256. Neustradamus MattJ: Any news? - https://github.com/xmpp-observatory/xmppoke-frontend/issues/8#issuecomment-616323674
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  261. jonas’ Neustradamus, is xmpp.net working?
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  302. marc SamWhited: yes, I'll ping you 👌
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  461. eevvoor How do I connect to a IRC via XMPP? I did that bevore but cannot refind instructions nor remember how I did that.
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  463. Zash You would use a transport like Biboumi or something.
  464. eevvoor Zash, how exactly? I used Gajim that time and only remeber that it was easy, nothing else :D.
  465. Ge0rG eevvoor: there are a few public hosted biboumi instances, and you can run your own of course
  466. eevvoor Ge0rG, ah ok. I will not host my own at the moment.
  467. Ge0rG eevvoor: there is a semi-public one on irc.yax.im that I'm running and I think there was also one on jabberfr
  468. eevvoor How would I use yours Ge0rG
  469. Ge0rG eevvoor: /join #channel%ircserver@irc.yax.im should work, or ad-hoc-configure irc.yax.im
  470. Ge0rG provided that s2s works for it.
  471. Ge0rG no idea though ;)
  472. MattJ No DNS
  473. MattJ irc.jabberfr.org responds though
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  475. Ge0rG ah right, you'd have to add irc.yax.im CNAME xmpp.yaxim.org for it to work.
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  477. Ge0rG ...on your xmpp server. security by obscurity.
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  481. eevvoor hm Ge0rG where do I use the /join cmd?
  482. Ge0rG eevvoor: in your xmpp client
  483. eevvoor ah :D
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  497. eevvoor Ok. it worked. thx Ge0rG, this time I document it for myself.
  498. eevvoor In case I would need to specify the port, would it be also in the join line?
  499. pep. To configure the port you'll need ad-hoc support I would say
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  515. MattJ Anyone know of a client library (not web-based) that supports websockets?
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  532. Link Mauve MattJ, nbxmpp, from Gajim.
  533. MattJ Ah nice, thanks
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  541. eevvoor ok pep. the question was luckily just for curiosity.
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  597. MattJ flow, just sent a mail regarding list-multi
  598. MattJ XEP-0004 forbids arbitrary values there
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  600. MattJ Hmm, what do people think about a <comment> block in XEPs that isn't rendered by default?
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  604. pep. Comment for whom to see?
  605. MattJ People working on the XEP
  606. pep. ahh
  607. MattJ Potentially useful for detailed rationale, etc.
  608. pep. Sorry I read "block" and "XEP" and I made the wrong connection
  609. jonas’ MattJ, <!-- ... -->?
  610. MattJ It would be nice if we /could/ render these though
  611. MattJ e.g. in a different colour
  612. pep. MattJ, I would prefer to render the rationale tbh :x
  613. jonas’ I think detailed rationale should simply go in the document itself
  614. MattJ That could lead to a lot of noise
  615. MattJ I don't think XEP-0313 needs a detailed explanation of why it uses list-multi or text-multi
  616. pep. Do you have an example ?
  617. pep. Do you have an example?
  618. pep. hmm
  619. MattJ That's just going to be noise for people trying to implement it
  620. jonas’ MattJ, ah indeed
  621. jonas’ just put it in <
  622. MattJ But for people working on the XEP, or curious in these decisions, it's valuable
  623. pep. Well that can go into a "rationale" section that people can skip
  624. jonas’ just put it in <!-- .. --> I think
  625. MattJ No, I kinda want it inline
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  627. jonas’ MattJ, so put it inline?
  628. Zash Oh but XEP-0122 lets you alter the behavior of list-multi
  629. jonas’ (ah that was in reply to pep)
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  631. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html#usercases-validation.open
  632. Zash Tremble before the tower of complexity!
  633. MattJ It would be nice for a HTML rendering with author notes visible
  634. Kev I agree that a 'real' block that's unrendered but renderable would be useful for quite a lot of things.
  635. MattJ and we can even render both versions on the site by default
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  638. MattJ Zash, aha, thanks
  639. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/aR8BT1lrepN3wuPq/details.html
  640. MattJ Nice
  641. Zash Hm, views. Separate renditions / views for users, implementors, authors?
  642. MattJ Users? No thanks
  643. Zash User view = just a description of the feature + list of implementatinos
  644. MattJ Right
  645. Zash Becasue XEP == Feature now.
  646. flow MattJ, replied
  647. Kev MattJ: Oh, I was thinking of a JS toggle, rather than a different document.
  648. flow MattJ, I also think the statement "text-multi is defined to be multiline" to be problematic. text-multi values appears to be explicitly *not* multi lines, as should not contain newlines
  649. MattJ Either works for me (Zash's solution doesn't even use JS)
  650. Zash Kev, `<details>` !
  651. MattJ "The field enables an entity to gather or provide multiple lines of text. ***"
  652. Kev Whatever :)
  653. MattJ "an application that receives multiple <value/> elements for a field of type "text-multi" SHOULD merge the XML character data of the value elements into one text block"
  654. Zash What happens if you put newlines in the individual <value>s?
  655. Kev MattJ: It's fine isn't it? We can use list-multi, just have to have the server generate a form that has all the IDs in it so the client can then choose from them.
  656. Zash Kev: Perfect!
  657. Zash How many unique IDs do you think the MUC logs of this chat room has?
  658. flow MattJ, that requirement appears strange to me. but irregardless text-multi should be a good fit?
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  661. Kev text-multi is just a way of providing a multi-line text field, it's not multiple text entries.
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  663. MattJ Other than I expect any sensible library is going to return a multiline string from this form, it's "ok"
  664. Kev So I think that's a worse fit than list-multi, TBH.
  665. MattJ As long as newlines aren't allowed in message ids...
  666. MattJ list-multi does feel cleaner
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  669. Zash ``` <field var="archive-ids" type="list-multi" label="Archive IDs of messages to retrieve"> <validate xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/xdata-validate" datatype="xs:string"> <open/> </validate> </field> ```
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  671. flow MattJ> Other than I expect any sensible library is going to return a multiline string from this form, it's "ok" definetly, although low layers of an API would (and should) probably allows access to the individual values
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  675. flow ahh the requirement above explicitly talks about "an application", everything is fine then ;)
  676. MattJ You certainly could get that info in Prosody, for example. But it's a mess, you have to then access that field differently to all the others that are parsed, validated and returned automatically
  677. MattJ Would be easier just to split by newline again
  678. MattJ But ugly
  679. MattJ I think I'm going with list-multi
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  681. Zash Luckily we don't have any validation that values are among the offered options \o/
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  684. Zash Haha, maybe IDs should be JIDs, then we use jid-multi :D
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  688. lovetox hm if list-multi says a client is not allowed to add new options
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  690. lovetox but we never receive a form from the server in the MAM spec anyway
  691. lovetox so tecnically we dont add new values
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  694. Zash What's about the iq-get?
  695. MattJ You do receive a form (but you don't have to)
  696. lovetox ah yeah you can request it i remember
  697. Zash You receive the form from the allmighty XEP author when you read the holy text.
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  704. flow I think the fact that you can retrieve a (blank) gather form for MAM query options is a strong argument against list-multi, since you usually would have that field populated in gather forms
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  710. Kev Maybe it shouldn't be a list at all, but just a single value? :)
  711. MattJ At which point we might as well stick with the current non-form proposal
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  717. MattJ <p>A special note about the 'ids' field: this field is of type 'list-multi' which typically is used to allow the client to select from a provided list of options. In this form the list of all possible ids MUST NOT be provided by the server, as it is likely to be extremely large. Instead the server MUST include a &xep0122; &lt;validate/&gt; element that signals the list is open to arbitrary values provided by the client.</p>
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  721. Kev Seems pragmatic.
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  738. flow Kev> Maybe it shouldn't be a list at all, but just a single value? :) Wouldn't that be an indicator that there is a hole in xep4 which we may want/need to fill?
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  740. flow ahh, TIL <open/> from xep122 is actually defined as what we need
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  745. flow must the <open/> only appear on form retrieval or also on form submission?
  746. Zash retrieval
  747. Zash The entity you're submitting it to should know what the form looks like
  748. Zash so, sending them such metadata would be redundant
  749. flow yeah I know, I just wondered if there is some spec text on that
  750. Zash IIRC 0004 says that the basic type attrs are optional on submitting, same logic
  751. flow not sure if my spec laywer would agree to that, but yes ;)
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  755. Zash 20% of Council agrees :P
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  775. eevvoor > not sure if my spec laywer would agree to that, but yes ;) layer or lawyer flow ;)
  776. flow not sure if my spec lawyer would agree to that, but yes ;)
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  809. flow Friendly (and probably only) reminder that you can suggest characters for the XSF to adopt by the end of the week at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Adopt-a-Character or by writing me an email: flo@geekplace.eu
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  813. Ge0rG 💩
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  817. pep. <💡/> 4 chars
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  820. Zash <🗪 xmlns=💡/>
  821. Zash `<💬 xmlns=💡 type=🗫><body>Nobody said XML element names are restricted to ASCII</body></💬>
  822. pep. missing a >
  823. pep. Or is that my terminal
  824. Zash Haha
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  832. rion took a look on the calendar. Doesn't seem to be 1st..
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  844. Syndace Zash, MattJ: if you want to have a look at what I came up with for Quick Response: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/933
  845. Syndace no idea if this is the formally correct way to re-propose a protoXEP that has been rejected before 😀
  846. pep. As an editor I am not sure how to deal with this :p
  847. MattJ Let's just say it is
  848. Syndace Technically you can treat it as a new protoXEP, it has a different name and 99% different content
  849. pep. Do we need an ACK from the original author
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  852. MattJ I have some feedback but can't type it up right now
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  854. Syndace okay I converted it to a draft pr for now
  855. pep. Syndace, thanks
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  884. Zash pep., enough of an ack? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/933#issuecomment-616742618
  885. pep. :DD
  886. Zash Did I spell Syndace correctly this time?
  887. pep. yeah
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  889. Zash Wrote "Syndance" first :)
  890. Syndace Hahaha I like it :D
  891. pep. Syndace, poke me when you remove the WIP state and it's ready to merge
  892. pep. Or another editor
  893. Syndace Sure, thanks
  894. Zash I suppose you want to add your own version block as well
  895. Zash Oh wait, you did
  896. Zash Confused by indentation. nm me.
  897. Syndace :)
  898. Zash Not sure you want to delete the old one tho, since that was a thing that was proposed
  899. Syndace theoretically protoxeps are supposed to be version 0.0.0 anyway afaik
  900. Zash Oh no!
  901. pep. I'm always so confused by our versioning scheme
  902. pep. I don't like it
  903. Syndace but I'll wait for an editor to tell be that :)
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  915. pep. XEP-0001 doesn't actually say protoXEPs are not versioned
  916. pep. It just seems to say a XEP (experimental) gets published with version 0.1
  917. Syndace oh, I think I read something in the readme of the xeps repo
  918. pep. Maybe the xep-README thing contains useful info
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  920. pep. 2§ XEP Editor Responsabilities: 11. List administration ??
  921. pep. "Set the version to 0.0.1."
  922. pep. for a protoXEP
  923. pep. I would like to note that this file mentions a mercurial repo for XEPs :o
  924. Syndace :D
  925. Zash I think I still have a clone of that repo, from ... bitbucket? or whatsitcalled?
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  930. pep. Does anybody still have access to editor@xmpp.org?
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  932. Syndace Zash: do you have any feedback on the content? Did I about grasp what we discussed yesterday?
  933. Zash I got distracted before I got that far :)
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  938. MattJ Ok, I'm here for a few
  939. Syndace sane
  940. Syndace same
  941. MattJ Syndace, a big one I'd like to comment on is internationalized responses
  942. MattJ I think it came up while discussing the previous protoXEP, and it also has come up for me again in Hats, and possibly elsewhere too
  943. Syndace hmm yes, I thought it would be weird if you see a frensh message and a frensh button but then on click suddenly there is an english "yes"
  944. MattJ and we had a big discussion a while back about multiple <body> tags
  945. Syndace (oh boi, french I mean)
  946. MattJ I think what I'm converging on is the approach that generally each interaction is confined to one language
  947. MattJ and this can be indicated by xml:lang for clarity
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  950. MattJ A Spanish bot, or a multilingual bot in a Spanish MUC is just going to use Spanish for all interactions
  951. Syndace does the bot always know the preferred language of the recipient?
  952. Zash If it's responding, it can know
  953. MattJ My argument is that yes, in practice it does
  954. Zash Dunno if you have bots initiating interactions ever
  955. MattJ We have basically never used the multiple xml:lang <body> thing, it's basically a lurking security issue at this point
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  957. Zash 💡️🤖️> Hello Zash, you haven't voted yet. Maybe you wanna do that now? Eh?
  958. MattJ It has many problems in practice, and I think it's good to keep things simple, and not add stuff just because we can
  959. MattJ I was planning hats (aka Badges, whatever) to offer translations, and I decided to drop it on similar grounds
  960. Syndace okay. So what would you propose? Remove all the xml:lang stuff and replace the i18n considerations with "if the entity aims to support multiple languages, it should do so by detecting the preferred language of its communication partner and then using only that one language"?
  961. Zash Syndace, not remove, but only allow one
  962. Zash xml:lang is still allowed everywhere in theory
  963. MattJ It should have (optional?) xml:lang
  964. MattJ But not support for multiple
  965. Zash Hm, multilingual bot interactions, would that be an informational XEP?
  966. Zash Actually applies to servers
  967. pep. "MattJ> A Spanish bot, or a multilingual bot in a Spanish MUC is just going to use Spanish for all interactions" I'm sorry to be the exception again, but it happens quite often in two different MUCs I'm in that it's not the case :(
  968. pep. There's no "one language defined"
  969. pep. poezio@ is such an example
  970. MattJ pep., I'm fine with that
  971. MattJ But you wouldn't deploy a Spanish-speaking bot in that room, would you?
  972. pep. I could deploy a french + english bot
  973. Zash MUC deos have that "primary langage" field that we're using now :)
  974. MattJ I don't think in this case you are the exception
  975. MattJ In reality we all speak different languages, but each room does tend to have a primary (and sometimes a preferred secondary)
  976. pep. and that bot would not just use french or english, it'd used french and english
  977. MattJ I really don't think it harms anyone for the bot to be just like anyone else
  978. MattJ It can
  979. MattJ But it can't mix both in one message
  980. pep. in one <message>?
  981. MattJ Yes
  982. Syndace my thought process was that bots are probably the only real use-cases of a message with multiple bodies in different languages
  983. pep. why not, I'm not sure I get it
  984. Zash Normala människor don't mix olika språk in the same meddelande!
  985. Syndace but if the multiple bodies is a think you'd rather see die (which I can totally understand) then I will remove the support
  986. Zash pep., most bot interactions is responding to humans, right? just respond in the same language and things should be fine.
  987. Zash so !ping would respond pong and !shtrudel would reply kartoffel
  988. Zash easy peasy
  989. pep. :D
  990. pep. That's fine when answering maybe
  991. pep. Not when initiating
  992. pep. (I'm only reading now what's being said above)
  993. Syndace anything else matt? 🙂
  994. MattJ If you're in any doubt, you should dig up the previous xml:lang discussions
  995. pep. which ones!!
  996. MattJ Yes, there was something else, let me check
  997. pep. Somebody(tm) should write an informal XEP about @xml:lang
  998. pep. adds that to XEP ideas
  999. MattJ Oh, I think it was just the naming "allowed response" - it makes it sound like other responses are disallowed
  1000. Syndace well they probably are
  1001. Zash Oh no
  1002. Syndace if you reply "lol maybe" to memberbot it won't be happy
  1003. MattJ I don't think that's necessarily the case
  1004. Zash My freedom to reply "lol maybe"!!!
  1005. MattJ Providing shortcuts for common responses, but also allowing freeform responses is definitely a valid use case
  1006. pep. Zash, and the bot's freedom not to listen to your "lol maybe"!
  1007. Syndace true
  1008. Zash pep., mutual freedom, mmmmmmmm
  1009. MattJ and for legacy client's it's a reality you'll have anyway
  1010. Syndace taking ideas for alternative element names :D
  1011. MattJ Oh no, that's the hard part!
  1012. Syndace right xD
  1013. Syndace maybe just response, there should be no ambiguity as we're using a namespace anyway
  1014. MattJ Yeah, that sounds good
  1015. Zash <{quick-responses}response>
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  1017. moparisthebest Next you'll be asking about the proper first array index and the lua devs will pipe up and it'll be all out war!
  1018. pep. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP_ideas/@xml:lang !
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  1020. flow https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#roomconfig: really stupid question: do I have to submit all fields with values or just the changed fields with their new values?
  1021. MattJ flow, "yes" ;)
  1022. flow ahh the universally valid answer
  1023. MattJ flow, as far as I'm concerned you can just submit the changed fields, but I don't think it is actually defined what happens to the rest
  1024. pep. the latter?
  1025. pep. yes
  1026. MattJ Other than "default"
  1027. MattJ which for Prosody at least means "whatever it currently is"
  1028. flow smack currently sends all values, but I see a possiblity to save bytes on the wire!!!
  1029. MattJ Yeah, I think it's sensible
  1030. MattJ But I can't say that another server won't reset all the missing fields to their defaults
  1031. flow lets see what ad-hoc commands do…
  1032. flow hmm ex11 and ex12 in xep50 not helpful
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  1034. flow hmm ex11 and ex12 in xep50 are not helpful
  1035. flow is that really not defined? :(
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  1038. MattJ Syndace, I'm also unsure about whether responses or actions should be limited to the previous message
  1039. MattJ Responses, probably, I guess... since there is no id
  1040. MattJ But actions, a bot could (and probably would) put a sensible unique id on each action, that's up to the bot
  1041. Syndace I obviously had the bot use-case in the back of my mind and I think having responses to messages that are not the last would probably only cause confusion and nothing else
  1042. MattJ If I push some more commits to the same PR, it might cause another notification, but the 'merge' button could have the same id
  1043. pep. You're starting to comfort me that these may be two different use-cases
  1044. MattJ If it's a textual response then yeah, it's not clear what it's replying to
  1045. Syndace for actions it's not limited to the last message but the last message that contains actions. A bot _could_ obviously assign unique ids to every action it ever sends out, but that's not guaranteed and if it doesn't things become weird
  1046. MattJ (without the in-reply-to thing we discussed)
  1047. MattJ If it doesn't, that's the bot's responsibility. I just gave an example of non-unique ids being fine
  1048. MattJ It's likely worth mentioning, but I don't think it is necessary to forbid actions on older messages
  1049. pep. I also find this weird
  1050. Syndace but if there's a new message with a new merge button, do you think it's valuable to have the change to trigger the action on the old message?
  1051. pep. I wouldn't forbid it
  1052. Syndace chance*
  1053. pep. I don't think we can do much about this until threads or whatever other magical solution
  1054. pep. If there's an id and I support it, I'll use it
  1055. pep. if it's between people, they'll figure it out
  1056. Syndace > I don't think we can do much about this well what we can do it say that only the newest actions should be accessible
  1057. pep. Syndace, what if they're different?
  1058. pep. Why would you prevent this
  1059. Syndace but I can remove that restriction and add a note that this should be kept in mind
  1060. pep. Sure
  1061. pep. "There might be cases where.. *handwave-maybe-somebody-will-figure-out-a-solution*"
  1062. Syndace yeah right, will do that
  1063. pep. And hope you get feedback from implementing clients
  1064. Syndace yeah. first of all I hope it gets accepted as experimental 🙂
  1065. Syndace the changes we're discussing right now are already too advanced for a protoxep that might just get rejected 😀
  1066. pep. :D
  1067. MattJ It would be a bit weird if two PRs came in and only the second one had a merge button
  1068. pep. definitely
  1069. Syndace hmm that's true
  1070. pep. Maybe the merge button can actually be "merge !234" and "merge !345"
  1071. Syndace yes I'm convinced, for actions it doesn't make sense to limit the messages just because the dev of a bot might mess up the ids
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  1081. pep. I find the current experimental XEP updating flow a bit weird. An author pushes changes, doesn't open any thread on standards (they're the author after all, they can just push things), I have feedback that I won't be able to get in before it gets pushed. Changes get pushed, new revision, my feedback is heard, another revision
  1082. pep. We could have skipped an editor roundtrip in between
  1083. pep. I kinda prefer what's happening with MAM atm
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  1096. pep. What would be a use-case for allowing registering accounts (IBR2) after bind
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  1121. Syndace Quick Response updated, here's the rendered version: https://syndace.com/xeps/inbox/quick-response.html
  1122. Syndace pep. I'll remove the WIP now I guess, this should be ready to be voted on, even if it's not perfect yet
  1123. pep. gogo, I'm merging stuff nao
  1124. Syndace done
  1125. Zash Nit: In general, data that's to be considered "content" ought to be in text elements, and attrs should be used for more metadata-ish things.
  1126. Syndace ah interesting, was wondering when to use which
  1127. Zash I forget if this is mentioned in some XEP but otherwise it's a general XML guideline thing.
  1128. pep. I'm unsure if buttons should be removed from the inbox though
  1129. Zash Same
  1130. Syndace #depends
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  1132. Zash Seems a weird thing to do
  1133. Syndace If this should be seen as a totally new protoXEP, buttons should probably not be removed. If this is seen as a rework of buttons, then it _os_ buttons
  1134. Syndace If this should be seen as a totally new protoXEP, buttons should probably not be removed. If this is seen as a rework of buttons, then it _is_ buttons
  1135. Syndace I mean, locally I didn't `rm` buttons but I `mv`ed buttons to quick-response 😀
  1136. Zash This is why working on protoXEPs is generally discouraged
  1137. pep. Zash, how do you rework refused XEPs?
  1138. pep. To repropose them once feedback is integrated
  1139. Zash Why couldn't that be done in experimental?
  1140. pep. Don't ask me, I'm not part of council rejecting stuff :p
  1141. pep. Don't refuse protoXEPs, people wouldn't have to work on them :P
  1142. Zash I wasn't on council then
  1143. pep. /jk
  1144. Syndace can the author of a rejected protoXEP ask the editor to remove that rejected protoXEP from inbox?
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  1146. Syndace If so I'd propose that Zash just formally asks pep. to remove buttons and we're good 😀
  1147. Zash I'd say leave it. It was voted on, it's good to be able to go back and see what that was.
  1148. Syndace fair enough
  1149. pep. Syndace, can you do that? unrm it
  1150. Syndace on it
  1151. pep. thanks
  1152. pep. Zash, on a related note, I want to work on ToS (inbox/tos.html) and if possible keep the name, how to do? :p
  1153. Zash oh glob
  1154. Syndace there we go, feel free to squash obviously
  1155. Syndace hmm now I wonder whether I should remove all traces of buttons from quick-response
  1156. Syndace like old version blocks and zash as author
  1157. Zash 🤷️
  1158. Syndace whatevs, if that's not an editorial issue leave it at that
  1159. Zash Let's not try to determine if this constitutes an original work or a derived work.
  1160. pep. I'm fine with that I've got a signed message from the original author
  1161. Syndace nah it's cool, feel free to merge now
  1162. Syndace I hope you don't have to wait for the pipeline 😀
  1163. pep. I do, to update xmpp.org at least
  1164. Zash > this is not always the case due to reasons
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