XSF Discussion - 2020-04-23

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  145. jonas’

    flow, xep-0055

  146. jonas’

    you need to grep for `<reported>`, not `<reported/>`.

  147. jonas’

    It is never going to be empty

  148. flow

    jonas’, IIRC is used 'lt;reported'

  149. jonas’

    yeah, well

  150. jonas’

    of course with escaping ;)

  151. jonas’

    ohh, yeah, the code examples would not be escaped because of <[![CDATA sections

  152. flow

    rg -l 'lt;reported' |sort

  153. jonas’

    so you actually have to grep for literal <reported

  154. flow

    rg -l '(lt;|<)reported' |sort

  155. flow

    uhh a multi-user_gaming protoxep in the inbox appears

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  162. Maranda

    Ohhhhh which one is it 🐈🐈🐈

  163. Maranda curious

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  171. marc

    0ad uses XMPP AFAIK

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  173. Link Mauve

    Yup, it does, for its lobby.

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  201. pep.

    is there a place / would it make sense to advertise a status URI somewhere via XMPP? something something 0157? that a client could cache maybe? even it that will obviously be advertised oob as well

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  203. pep.

    is there a place / would it make sense to advertise a status URI somewhere via XMPP? something something 0157? that a client could cache maybe? even if that will obviously be advertised oob as well

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  206. Link Mauve

    pep., you mean so that someone who can’t connect to jabber.fr atm can get their client to say “Hey, have a look at https://status.jabberfr.org maybe something is going on!”?

  207. MattJ

    pep., oh, are you XEPping this?

  208. pep.

    I'm not I'm curiouw

  209. pep.

    I'm not I'm curious

  210. MattJ


  211. MattJ

    It's been on my todo for too long

  212. pep.

    baby steps

  213. pep.

    Link Mauve: that

  214. Link Mauve

    pep., please do~

  215. pep. go add that to xep ideas and drops it

  216. pep. goes add that to xep ideas and drops it

  217. MattJ

    pep., https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-December/035514.html

  218. pep.


  219. pep.

    sharing your to-do is always a first step :)

  220. MattJ

    I think there would be some value in having it separate if you can also add a 'type', e.g. if the client could automatically fetch and display items from an Atom feed (or I'm guessing there are standards for exactly this purpose)

  221. Zash

    `_status.jabberfr.org IN URI "https://statut.jabberfr.org/"`

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  223. MattJ

    That would be nice indeed!

  224. Zash

    There, you don't even need the server up, just DNS. Problem solved.

  225. pep.

    right, probably better via DNS

  226. pep.

    if DNS is dead you probably can't access the server already anyway, the opposite is not necessarily true

  227. MattJ

    I really like the potential for clients to automatically show this to the user when a working account suddenly has connection problems

  228. pep.


  229. Zash

    and if DNS is dead you probably can't access https://statut.jabberfr.org/ either

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  231. jonas’

    Zash, _status._5222._tcp.jabberfr.org

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  234. jonas’

    is a URI record a thing?

  235. jonas’

    apparently yes

  236. Zash goes to look up the actual syntax in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7553

  237. Zash

    Ah, priority and weight.

  238. Link Mauve

    For our usecase, DNS would be inconvenient because we don’t control the domain of all of our users.

  239. jonas’

    your users do, though

  240. jonas’

    they could CNAME to your _status recrod

  241. Link Mauve

    We could do it for our own domains, but this would be something the hosted users would have to figure out by themselves.

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  244. Zash

    Hm, you could add SRV records pointing at something that just responds with a `<stream:error><system-shutdown/><text>Service down because reasons.<////>`

  245. jonas’

    that’d be fun

  246. Zash


  247. Zash

    And `<see-other-host/>` if it's back up?

  248. pep.

    next up: deploy a centralised service doing so and getting everyone's data!!

  249. jonas’

    pep., you laugh...

  250. jonas’

    I have something in the pipeline

  251. pep.

    next up: deploy a centralised service doing so and get everyone's data!!

  252. pep.


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  255. pep.

    So this is not really an XMPP thing right

  256. jonas’


  257. jonas’

    I asked in #powerdns if they know something about a thing which exists in dNS

  258. jonas’

    but apparently there is not

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  260. pep.

    hmm, I'm curious how many dns providers allow using this type..

  261. pep.

    It's already great when they think about SRV and they don't butcher the necessary fields

  262. Zash

    I saw something (also in #powerdns) about AT&T still not supporting SRV

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  264. pep.

    AT&T as in, not their ISP service?

  265. Zash

    I understood it as in the ISP

  266. pep.

    Why would an ISP need support for this

  267. Zash


  268. pep.


  269. Zash

    Because ISPs usually provide DNS resolvers to their customers?

  270. Zash

    ... but DNS-over-HTTPS is here to save the day!

  271. Zash


  272. pep.


  273. pep.

    > What are you going to do, switch providers? laughs in government protected monopoly

  274. pep.

    When do we start the revolution.

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  276. MattJ

    It happened. You missed it. This is the result!

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  279. jonas’


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  284. pep.

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP_ideas/Server_status_page ?

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  309. MattJ

    XEP-0045 is a long document. If <{muc#user}x><item/></x> is missing an 'affiliation' attribute, does it default to 'none'?

  310. MattJ

    The schema says 'affiliation' is optional

  311. MattJ

    I think it may be illegal

  312. flow

    and the schema being wrong?

  313. MattJ

    Possibly. Not confident enough to say yes :)

  314. flow

    It does not sound unrealistic that the affiliation is 'none' if not explicitly otherwise announced

  315. Zash

    Alternatively, maybe the service doesn't want you to know the affiliation?

  316. flow

    is affiliation hiding a thing in xep45?

  317. MattJ

    I agree. There is text that says you MUST send a presence «containing an <item/> child with the 'role' attribute set to a value of "moderator", "participant", or "visitor", and with the 'affiliation' attribute set to a value of "owner", "admin", "member", or "none" as appropriate.»

  318. Zash

    flow, not sure, probably not.

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  342. pep.


  343. pep.

    MattJ, ralphm, Seve

  344. Seve


  345. pep.

    Let's wait some more

  346. pep.


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  348. Seve


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  351. Seve

    Guus sent apologies, though

  352. Seve

    (I see you didn't mention him)

  353. pep.

    He did, we could still be 4 though

  354. pep.

    Yeah I didn't because of his mail

  355. pep.

    Ok well.. let's cancel today..

  356. Seve


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  358. Ge0rG

    can't we just cancel the whole year?

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  360. MattJ

    Hey, sorry, here now

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  362. pep.

    MattJ, !

  363. pep.

    Not like there are many things to discuss about, but..

  364. MattJ

    I'm ok with cancelling though, unless we have something that needs discussing

  365. pep.

    I'm personally kinda blocking on ralph and his marketing lead, even though I'm also looking on my end, but I did get strong hints that people preferred not bothering with money if it's not necessary, so I don't really want to waste other people's times promising things that are not coming

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  379. Guus

    Apologies for the last-minute cancellation. Crazy times at work.

  380. Guus

    Apologies for the last-minute cancellation. Crazy times ~at work~.

  381. Guus

    (or what's the strikethrough markup?)

  382. pep.

    It doesn't exist in xhtml-im

  383. SamWhited

    Guus: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html#strike

  384. SamWhited

    (so what you just did)

  385. Guus


  386. Guus

    I take that as a win. How are things, Sam? It's been a while.

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  388. SamWhited

    Guus: same as ever; trying to find a job that will let me be involved in non-profits and standards orgs and what not again. How are things on your side of the pond?

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  390. Guus

    as stated: crazy.

  391. SamWhited

    *nods* I know that feeling.

  392. Guus

    There's only so much homeschooling that noise cancellation headphones can cancel 😉

  393. SamWhited

    Oh yah, I can imagine.

  394. Guus

    We're doing well - healthy too. Takes a bit of a toll, but we're probably least worst off, as compared to most.

  395. SamWhited

    Same here; as much as I complain about my job and working from home, I still have one and have a home to work from so I can't complain too much.

  396. Guus

    count your blessings, right?

  397. SamWhited


  398. Guus

    good to hear you're doing ok

  399. SamWhited

    yah you too, stay healthy!

  400. Guus


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  462. amuza


  463. amuza

    I have some basic questions about XMPP

  464. Zash


  465. amuza

    I don't know if this is the right forum...

  466. amuza

    1. Can a user create a multi user chat?

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  468. amuza

    Or is it something that needs to be created by the server administrator?

  469. Zash

    Usually this can be configured in the server.

  470. amuza

    Do you mean chat rooms are configured in the server or do you mean you can configure the server so that users can create chat rooms?

  471. Zash

    I mean the admin can configure in their server whether to restrict room creation to admins or local users or allow anyone on any server.

  472. Ge0rG

    There are many public servers that allow everyone to create rooms

  473. amuza

    Good, thanks, now I understand.

  474. amuza

    Didn't know.

  475. amuza

    So, if I have an account on one of those servers, will I easily find on my client (Gajim, Conversations, whatever) how to create a room?

  476. mathieui

    You don’t need to have an account on the server that hosts the chatrooms, and you only have to join a room in most clients to have it created

  477. mathieui

    some clients separate both actions, which is a good thing imo (while it is the same protocol-wise)

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  479. Ge0rG

    If you want to create a private room for you and your friends only, conversations is probably the best tool right now

  480. amuza


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  486. amuza

    So, if a user wants to create a private room for she and her friends, she needs to have her account in one of those MUC-enabled servers, doesn't she?

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  491. amuza

    Forget my last question, I'm rereading your answers, and got it clear now : o

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  495. amuza

    Is OMEMO a client software that works regardless of the XMPP server? (kind of GPG and email servers)

  496. amuza

    Or does the server requires something so that OMEMO works properly?

  497. Zash

    The server needs to support "PEP"

  498. moparisthebest

    and not explicitly block omemo like some ejabberd versions

  499. amuza

    Cool. I'm seeing it now in an XMPP server list, this PEP thing is listed there.

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  502. amuza

    Ooh, it is blocked by a server software, why?

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  504. amuza

    I understand OMEMO makes thing easier than OTR when you have several devices, but does OMEMO support multi-user chat?

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  506. pep.

    easier I don't know, but it makes them possible. Or it did, at the time

  507. pep.

    And yes OMEMO supports multi-user chat

  508. amuza

    Thank you!

  509. moparisthebest

    if I recall correctly the reasoning was something like "omemo causes support headaches for server operators so our config will block it by default"

  510. moparisthebest

    hopefully there aren't anymore of those left in the wild, it was pretty stupid

  511. pep.

    moparisthebest, we all have different stories, maybe that was justified for them :)

  512. amuza

    Anyway, it is weird if the rest of the servers can handle it...

  513. moparisthebest

    *in my opinion :)

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  515. pep.

    hasn't that been changed ages ago already though?

  516. moparisthebest


  517. pep.


  518. amuza

    This was definitely the right forum, very accurate answers by lots of people.

  519. amuza

    I am chatting through a webpage

  520. amuza

    Can I join the chat from my XMPP client?

  521. amuza

    What's the address?

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  526. pep.


  527. pep.

    Your browser might not understand this though.. the room address is just xsf@muc.xmpp.org

  528. amuza

    Yeap, thanks! That's simpler now.

  529. amuza

    Thank you all very much!

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  594. Neustradamus

    A good news: https://twitter.com/neustradamus/status/1253425669687488512

  595. pep.


  596. pep.

    Is sourceforge even still alive

  597. eevvoor

    yes :D

  598. moparisthebest

    ha that's an awesome delay

  599. Zash

    Changed owners a bunch of times

  600. moparisthebest

    they were just going through their tweets from 2 years ago or?

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  605. Neustradamus

    I have done several reminders (same owner) and recently on the website.

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  608. moparisthebest

    nice work Neustradamus !

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  610. Neustradamus

    Thanks moparisthebest :)

  611. eevvoor

    Neustradamus, what does your tweet mean, that > We can say that #SourceForge now knows @xmpp/#XMPP

  612. eevvoor

    pep. my favourit ekodi distro, xbian, is also on sourceforge. That was when I lealized that sourceforge ist still around.

  613. Neustradamus

    I have requested an important change: https://sourceforge.net/directory/communications/chat/jabber

  614. eevvoor

    pep. my favourite kodi distro, xbian, is also on sourceforge. That was when I lealized that sourceforge ist still around.

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  616. eevvoor

    Neustradamus, oh this is really cool

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  628. Ge0rG

    Sourceforge has completely lost their credibility at the moment when they started injecting malware into project downloads

  629. pep.

    Microsoft doing it in 1, 2..

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  631. Maranda

    pep. ...?

  632. pep.


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  635. Maranda

    pep., the most Microsoft could do is closing it down

  636. pep.

    I doubt that is all they can do

  637. Maranda

    injecting trojans is not their usual pattern ;P

  638. Zash

    More likely that they'll integrate it reall well with Visual Studio and Azure.

  639. Maranda

    Zash, yes or if they find it useless either absorb it into something else and then do what they did to codeplex

  640. Maranda

    That's Microsoft pattern.

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  643. Ge0rG

    Zash: with office!

  644. Wojtek

    @Maranda that seems more like Google pattern...

  645. Neustradamus

    Ge0rG: it was a previous owner...

  646. Maranda

    Wojtek, google learned their agenda from someone :P

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  648. Maranda

    who was there before them, but then MS improved on behaviour, while Google is just getting worser and worser.

  649. Wojtek

    ...and then surpassed the masster, buy also launching gazzilion of new services just to close them shortly after :D

  650. Wojtek

    well, MS lost a bit of market share, Google gain a bit so the roles reversed I guess

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  652. Maranda

    Microsoft is quickly regaining on what they lost tbh in the latest years.

  653. Ge0rG

    Maranda [23:23]: > pep., the most Microsoft could do is closing it down That's the most Google thing. Microsoft would integrate AD, Office and finally replace git with the visual studio sync protocol

  654. Zash

    Team Foundation Hub?

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  657. Maranda

    Ge0rG, if they deem it profitable, if they don't they just go for the retire and close and boom.

  658. Zash

    Seems unlikely.

  659. Maranda

    Zash, I could make a list of things where they just did it that way, but I don't think I need to.

  660. Maranda

    For now the only thing that annoys me of M$ is the last version of WAC because since the dashboard scripts will check for Win32_BaseBoard.product it'll break mercilessly on all systems with older SMBIOS 🤦‍♂️

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  667. pep.

    Lucky you. If only there was one annoying thing MS did :)

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  676. Maranda

    pep.: well windows is lately, susprisingly, less and less annoying tasks wise. I statistically cuss more when I have to deal with *nix

  677. Maranda

    So as long as this trend is mantained 🐈👨‍💻🤷🏼‍♂️

  678. Ge0rG

    Windows 10 can't be operated in accordance with the GDPR

  679. Zash

    Enterprise Edition?

  680. Maranda

    Ge0rG: your(?) opinion, beside that almost nothing can be in operated in "accordance" with the GDPR 😂😂😂

  681. Maranda

    XMPP on head

  682. pep.

    Wasn't it visual studio adding telemetry to every single binary it compiles by default?

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  684. pep.

    Thinking that a company needs GDPR to not do this is just mind blowing

  685. pep.

    Thinking that a company needs GDPR not to do this is just mind blowing

  686. pep.

    and still they've only made it "easier" to opt-out

  687. moparisthebest

    Imagine using Windows in 2020

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  689. Maranda

    (and telemetry can be easily disabled, we do it on all devices we deal out fwiw)

  690. pep.

    It's fine for the small number of devices you deal out maybe

  691. pep.

    What about all the rest

  692. Maranda

    I'm not "Mother Theresa"

  693. pep.

    Note that to me now we could be talking about Google, Apple, Amazon, and a lot more, it would be just the same

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  695. pep.

    Maranda, don't defend them then

  696. Maranda

    I don't have nothing to defend nor care to, even because a lot of unixlike implementations have far worse privacy concerns. Your own country wanted to put backdoors in routers' fw pep. 😂

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  698. pep.

    That's on the vendor though

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  700. pep.

    And don't worry I'm not defending "my country" either :)

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  703. Maranda

    Stuff like Immuni has maybe a reason to pick my privacy / civil concerns, the fact here the gov has violated 7 articles of our republic costitution acts without a law from the parliament to jail me in a 38 squared meters apart., suspend my costitutional rights, and basically putting a country on its knees without a concrete motivation pep. .. The rest is bs I'm not really interested into tbh.

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  706. pep.

    What's Immuni?

  707. Maranda

    Some covid tracing app the Italian Gov. "would like to implement" 😂

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  709. pep.

    What's the relation between what we said above

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  712. pep.

    Do you think I'm going to defend a tracking app with what I said above? :p

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  715. Maranda

    That something like that may pick my privacy concerns not for sure Telemetry in Windows 10

  716. pep.

    I'm sorry if you don't see it that way

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