XSF Discussion - 2020-04-23

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07:47:37 jonas’ flow, xep-0055
07:47:44 jonas’ you need to grep for `<reported>`, not `<reported/>`.
07:47:49 jonas’ It is never going to be empty
07:56:58 flow jonas’, IIRC is used 'lt;reported'
07:57:08 jonas’ yeah, well
07:57:11 jonas’ of course with escaping ;)
07:57:35 jonas’ ohh, yeah, the code examples would not be escaped because of <[![CDATA sections
07:57:52 flow rg -l 'lt;reported' |sort
07:58:05 jonas’ so you actually have to grep for literal <reported
07:58:31 flow rg -l '(lt;|<)reported' |sort
07:58:57 flow uhh a multi-user_gaming protoxep in the inbox appears
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08:16:54 Maranda Ohhhhh which one is it 🐈🐈🐈
08:17:12 Maranda curious
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09:01:44 marc 0ad uses XMPP AFAIK
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09:10:15 Link Mauve Yup, it does, for its lobby.
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10:28:11 pep. is there a place / would it make sense to advertise a status URI somewhere via XMPP? something something 0157? that a client could cache maybe? even it that will obviously be advertised oob as well
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10:28:35 pep. is there a place / would it make sense to advertise a status URI somewhere via XMPP? something something 0157? that a client could cache maybe? even if that will obviously be advertised oob as well
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10:30:52 Link Mauve pep., you mean so that someone who can’t connect to jabber.fr atm can get their client to say “Hey, have a look at https://status.jabberfr.org maybe something is going on!”?
10:31:01 MattJ pep., oh, are you XEPping this?
10:31:10 pep. I'm not I'm curiouw
10:31:13 pep. I'm not I'm curious
10:31:16 MattJ :(
10:31:22 MattJ It's been on my todo for too long
10:31:23 pep. baby steps
10:31:38 pep. Link Mauve: that
10:32:06 Link Mauve pep., please do~
10:32:20 pep. go add that to xep ideas and drops it
10:32:25 pep. goes add that to xep ideas and drops it
10:32:35 MattJ pep., https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-December/035514.html
10:33:03 pep. good
10:33:50 pep. sharing your to-do is always a first step :)
10:33:51 MattJ I think there would be some value in having it separate if you can also add a 'type', e.g. if the client could automatically fetch and display items from an Atom feed (or I'm guessing there are standards for exactly this purpose)
10:33:56 Zash `_status.jabberfr.org IN URI "https://statut.jabberfr.org/"`
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10:34:15 MattJ That would be nice indeed!
10:34:19 Zash There, you don't even need the server up, just DNS. Problem solved.
10:34:44 pep. right, probably better via DNS
10:35:20 pep. if DNS is dead you probably can't access the server already anyway, the opposite is not necessarily true
10:36:41 MattJ I really like the potential for clients to automatically show this to the user when a working account suddenly has connection problems
10:36:50 pep. yep
10:38:02 Zash and if DNS is dead you probably can't access https://statut.jabberfr.org/ either
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10:41:19 jonas’ Zash, _status._5222._tcp.jabberfr.org
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10:41:53 jonas’ is a URI record a thing?
10:42:01 jonas’ apparently yes
10:42:02 Zash goes to look up the actual syntax in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7553
10:42:22 Zash Ah, priority and weight.
10:44:05 Link Mauve For our usecase, DNS would be inconvenient because we don’t control the domain of all of our users.
10:44:32 jonas’ your users do, though
10:44:44 jonas’ they could CNAME to your _status recrod
10:44:48 Link Mauve We could do it for our own domains, but this would be something the hosted users would have to figure out by themselves.
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10:53:56 Zash Hm, you could add SRV records pointing at something that just responds with a `<stream:error><system-shutdown/><text>Service down because reasons.<////>`
10:55:34 jonas’ that’d be fun
10:55:53 Zash Hm
10:56:17 Zash And `<see-other-host/>` if it's back up?
10:56:19 pep. next up: deploy a centralised service doing so and getting everyone's data!!
10:56:28 jonas’ pep., you laugh...
10:56:31 jonas’ I have something in the pipeline
10:56:34 pep. next up: deploy a centralised service doing so and get everyone's data!!
10:56:38 pep. :(
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11:03:42 pep. So this is not really an XMPP thing right
11:03:47 jonas’ yeah
11:03:55 jonas’ I asked in #powerdns if they know something about a thing which exists in dNS
11:04:00 jonas’ but apparently there is not
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11:04:58 pep. hmm, I'm curious how many dns providers allow using this type..
11:05:33 pep. It's already great when they think about SRV and they don't butcher the necessary fields
11:06:01 Zash I saw something (also in #powerdns) about AT&T still not supporting SRV
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11:06:30 pep. AT&T as in, not their ISP service?
11:06:51 Zash I understood it as in the ISP
11:07:07 pep. Why would an ISP need support for this
11:07:10 Zash https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/g636ql/psa_its_2020_and_att_still_provides_dns_servers/
11:07:18 pep. ugh
11:07:24 Zash Because ISPs usually provide DNS resolvers to their customers?
11:07:33 Zash ... but DNS-over-HTTPS is here to save the day!
11:07:37 Zash /s
11:07:43 pep. :(
11:08:31 pep. > What are you going to do, switch providers? laughs in government protected monopoly
11:09:05 pep. When do we start the revolution.
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11:10:38 MattJ It happened. You missed it. This is the result!
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11:12:31 jonas’ clownflare?
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11:17:14 pep. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP_ideas/Server_status_page ?
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12:09:54 MattJ XEP-0045 is a long document. If <{muc#user}x><item/></x> is missing an 'affiliation' attribute, does it default to 'none'?
12:10:03 MattJ The schema says 'affiliation' is optional
12:11:16 MattJ I think it may be illegal
12:11:27 flow and the schema being wrong?
12:11:58 MattJ Possibly. Not confident enough to say yes :)
12:12:22 flow It does not sound unrealistic that the affiliation is 'none' if not explicitly otherwise announced
12:12:38 Zash Alternatively, maybe the service doesn't want you to know the affiliation?
12:13:17 flow is affiliation hiding a thing in xep45?
12:13:46 MattJ I agree. There is text that says you MUST send a presence «containing an <item/> child with the 'role' attribute set to a value of "moderator", "participant", or "visitor", and with the 'affiliation' attribute set to a value of "owner", "admin", "member", or "none" as appropriate.»
12:16:56 Zash flow, not sure, probably not.
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13:30:15 pep. !
13:30:31 pep. MattJ, ralphm, Seve
13:30:40 Seve Helloo
13:31:51 pep. Let's wait some more
13:35:07 pep. hmm.
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13:35:54 Seve :)
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13:38:29 Seve Guus sent apologies, though
13:38:37 Seve (I see you didn't mention him)
13:38:40 pep. He did, we could still be 4 though
13:38:46 pep. Yeah I didn't because of his mail
13:39:18 pep. Ok well.. let's cancel today..
13:39:48 Seve Indeed
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13:40:37 Ge0rG can't we just cancel the whole year?
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13:41:39 MattJ Hey, sorry, here now
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13:41:59 pep. MattJ, !
13:42:14 pep. Not like there are many things to discuss about, but..
13:42:16 MattJ I'm ok with cancelling though, unless we have something that needs discussing
13:43:41 pep. I'm personally kinda blocking on ralph and his marketing lead, even though I'm also looking on my end, but I did get strong hints that people preferred not bothering with money if it's not necessary, so I don't really want to waste other people's times promising things that are not coming
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14:54:20 Guus Apologies for the last-minute cancellation. Crazy times at work.
14:54:45 Guus Apologies for the last-minute cancellation. Crazy times ~at work~.
14:55:03 Guus (or what's the strikethrough markup?)
14:55:49 pep. It doesn't exist in xhtml-im
14:56:51 SamWhited Guus: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html#strike
14:57:58 SamWhited (so what you just did)
14:58:07 Guus \o/
14:58:29 Guus I take that as a win. How are things, Sam? It's been a while.
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14:59:34 SamWhited Guus: same as ever; trying to find a job that will let me be involved in non-profits and standards orgs and what not again. How are things on your side of the pond?
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14:59:58 Guus as stated: crazy.
15:00:05 SamWhited *nods* I know that feeling.
15:00:30 Guus There's only so much homeschooling that noise cancellation headphones can cancel 😉
15:01:32 SamWhited Oh yah, I can imagine.
15:01:33 Guus We're doing well - healthy too. Takes a bit of a toll, but we're probably least worst off, as compared to most.
15:02:02 SamWhited Same here; as much as I complain about my job and working from home, I still have one and have a home to work from so I can't complain too much.
15:02:34 Guus count your blessings, right?
15:02:39 SamWhited Indeed
15:02:39 Guus good to hear you're doing ok
15:02:48 SamWhited yah you too, stay healthy!
15:03:02 Guus likewise.
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18:21:52 amuza Hello
18:22:07 amuza I have some basic questions about XMPP
18:22:13 Zash Shoot
18:22:19 amuza I don't know if this is the right forum...
18:22:35 amuza 1. Can a user create a multi user chat?
18:23:01 paul has left
18:23:03 amuza Or is it something that needs to be created by the server administrator?
18:24:48 Zash Usually this can be configured in the server.
18:26:14 amuza Do you mean chat rooms are configured in the server or do you mean you can configure the server so that users can create chat rooms?
18:27:15 Zash I mean the admin can configure in their server whether to restrict room creation to admins or local users or allow anyone on any server.
18:27:37 Ge0rG There are many public servers that allow everyone to create rooms
18:27:44 amuza Good, thanks, now I understand.
18:27:53 amuza Didn't know.
18:28:41 amuza So, if I have an account on one of those servers, will I easily find on my client (Gajim, Conversations, whatever) how to create a room?
18:29:43 mathieui You don’t need to have an account on the server that hosts the chatrooms, and you only have to join a room in most clients to have it created
18:30:02 mathieui some clients separate both actions, which is a good thing imo (while it is the same protocol-wise)
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18:30:57 Ge0rG If you want to create a private room for you and your friends only, conversations is probably the best tool right now
18:31:26 amuza Cool
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18:34:56 amuza So, if a user wants to create a private room for she and her friends, she needs to have her account in one of those MUC-enabled servers, doesn't she?
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18:40:27 amuza Forget my last question, I'm rereading your answers, and got it clear now : o
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18:45:10 amuza Is OMEMO a client software that works regardless of the XMPP server? (kind of GPG and email servers)
18:45:23 amuza Or does the server requires something so that OMEMO works properly?
18:45:45 Zash The server needs to support "PEP"
18:47:34 moparisthebest and not explicitly block omemo like some ejabberd versions
18:48:10 amuza Cool. I'm seeing it now in an XMPP server list, this PEP thing is listed there.
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18:48:49 amuza Ooh, it is blocked by a server software, why?
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18:55:15 amuza I understand OMEMO makes thing easier than OTR when you have several devices, but does OMEMO support multi-user chat?
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18:55:44 pep. easier I don't know, but it makes them possible. Or it did, at the time
18:55:56 pep. And yes OMEMO supports multi-user chat
18:56:11 amuza Thank you!
18:56:29 moparisthebest if I recall correctly the reasoning was something like "omemo causes support headaches for server operators so our config will block it by default"
18:56:43 moparisthebest hopefully there aren't anymore of those left in the wild, it was pretty stupid
18:57:09 pep. moparisthebest, we all have different stories, maybe that was justified for them :)
18:57:44 amuza Anyway, it is weird if the rest of the servers can handle it...
18:57:49 moparisthebest *in my opinion :)
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18:58:00 pep. hasn't that been changed ages ago already though?
18:58:04 moparisthebest yes
18:58:07 pep. ok
19:00:00 amuza This was definitely the right forum, very accurate answers by lots of people.
19:00:09 amuza I am chatting through a webpage
19:00:22 amuza Can I join the chat from my XMPP client?
19:00:26 amuza What's the address?
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19:01:18 pep. xmpp:xsf@muc.xmpp.org?join
19:01:58 pep. Your browser might not understand this though.. the room address is just xsf@muc.xmpp.org
19:02:26 amuza Yeap, thanks! That's simpler now.
19:02:36 amuza Thank you all very much!
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20:49:39 Neustradamus A good news: https://twitter.com/neustradamus/status/1253425669687488512
20:51:02 pep. wat
20:51:08 pep. Is sourceforge even still alive
20:51:59 eevvoor yes :D
20:52:00 moparisthebest ha that's an awesome delay
20:52:10 Zash Changed owners a bunch of times
20:52:16 moparisthebest they were just going through their tweets from 2 years ago or?
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20:56:17 Neustradamus I have done several reminders (same owner) and recently on the website.
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20:57:45 moparisthebest nice work Neustradamus !
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20:58:55 Neustradamus Thanks moparisthebest :)
20:59:34 eevvoor Neustradamus, what does your tweet mean, that > We can say that #SourceForge now knows @xmpp/#XMPP
21:00:19 eevvoor pep. my favourit ekodi distro, xbian, is also on sourceforge. That was when I lealized that sourceforge ist still around.
21:00:21 Neustradamus I have requested an important change: https://sourceforge.net/directory/communications/chat/jabber
21:00:26 eevvoor pep. my favourite kodi distro, xbian, is also on sourceforge. That was when I lealized that sourceforge ist still around.
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21:01:02 eevvoor Neustradamus, oh this is really cool
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21:19:29 Ge0rG Sourceforge has completely lost their credibility at the moment when they started injecting malware into project downloads
21:20:21 pep. Microsoft doing it in 1, 2..
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21:22:17 Maranda pep. ...?
21:22:25 pep. GitHub
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21:23:16 Maranda pep., the most Microsoft could do is closing it down
21:23:33 pep. I doubt that is all they can do
21:23:48 Maranda injecting trojans is not their usual pattern ;P
21:24:30 Zash More likely that they'll integrate it reall well with Visual Studio and Azure.
21:26:15 Maranda Zash, yes or if they find it useless either absorb it into something else and then do what they did to codeplex
21:26:26 Maranda That's Microsoft pattern.
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21:29:51 Ge0rG Zash: with office!
21:30:16 Wojtek @Maranda that seems more like Google pattern...
21:30:50 Neustradamus Ge0rG: it was a previous owner...
21:31:28 Maranda Wojtek, google learned their agenda from someone :P
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21:32:25 Maranda who was there before them, but then MS improved on behaviour, while Google is just getting worser and worser.
21:32:27 Wojtek ...and then surpassed the masster, buy also launching gazzilion of new services just to close them shortly after :D
21:33:04 Wojtek well, MS lost a bit of market share, Google gain a bit so the roles reversed I guess
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21:35:31 Maranda Microsoft is quickly regaining on what they lost tbh in the latest years.
21:38:28 Ge0rG Maranda [23:23]: > pep., the most Microsoft could do is closing it down That's the most Google thing. Microsoft would integrate AD, Office and finally replace git with the visual studio sync protocol
21:39:33 Zash Team Foundation Hub?
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21:41:14 Maranda Ge0rG, if they deem it profitable, if they don't they just go for the retire and close and boom.
21:41:54 Zash Seems unlikely.
21:42:46 Maranda Zash, I could make a list of things where they just did it that way, but I don't think I need to.
21:47:26 Maranda For now the only thing that annoys me of M$ is the last version of WAC because since the dashboard scripts will check for Win32_BaseBoard.product it'll break mercilessly on all systems with older SMBIOS 🤦‍♂️
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21:58:55 pep. Lucky you. If only there was one annoying thing MS did :)
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22:08:28 Maranda pep.: well windows is lately, susprisingly, less and less annoying tasks wise. I statistically cuss more when I have to deal with *nix
22:09:17 Maranda So as long as this trend is mantained 🐈👨‍💻🤷🏼‍♂️
22:10:38 Ge0rG Windows 10 can't be operated in accordance with the GDPR
22:11:12 Zash Enterprise Edition?
22:12:49 Maranda Ge0rG: your(?) opinion, beside that almost nothing can be in operated in "accordance" with the GDPR 😂😂😂
22:13:02 Maranda XMPP on head
22:13:08 pep. Wasn't it visual studio adding telemetry to every single binary it compiles by default?
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22:14:28 pep. Thinking that a company needs GDPR to not do this is just mind blowing
22:14:45 pep. Thinking that a company needs GDPR not to do this is just mind blowing
22:15:06 pep. and still they've only made it "easier" to opt-out
22:15:35 moparisthebest Imagine using Windows in 2020
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22:16:45 Maranda (and telemetry can be easily disabled, we do it on all devices we deal out fwiw)
22:17:32 pep. It's fine for the small number of devices you deal out maybe
22:17:42 pep. What about all the rest
22:18:47 Maranda I'm not "Mother Theresa"
22:18:48 pep. Note that to me now we could be talking about Google, Apple, Amazon, and a lot more, it would be just the same
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22:19:10 pep. Maranda, don't defend them then
22:21:51 Maranda I don't have nothing to defend nor care to, even because a lot of unixlike implementations have far worse privacy concerns. Your own country wanted to put backdoors in routers' fw pep. 😂
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22:23:44 pep. That's on the vendor though
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22:24:04 pep. And don't worry I'm not defending "my country" either :)
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22:34:54 Maranda Stuff like Immuni has maybe a reason to pick my privacy / civil concerns, the fact here the gov has violated 7 articles of our republic costitution acts without a law from the parliament to jail me in a 38 squared meters apart., suspend my costitutional rights, and basically putting a country on its knees without a concrete motivation pep. .. The rest is bs I'm not really interested into tbh.
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22:36:08 pep. What's Immuni?
22:37:17 Maranda Some covid tracing app the Italian Gov. "would like to implement" 😂
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22:38:06 pep. What's the relation between what we said above
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22:38:41 pep. Do you think I'm going to defend a tracking app with what I said above? :p
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22:39:21 Maranda That something like that may pick my privacy concerns not for sure Telemetry in Windows 10
22:39:52 pep. I'm sorry if you don't see it that way
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