XSF Discussion - 2020-04-28

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  327. larma XEP-0308 allows to edit the last message of each full jid by the bare jid in direct messages. Which means I could technically edit another resources message. But when I do, I run into a race condition as that other resource could send another message shortly before my correction thus effectively making my correction "out of scope" of XEP-0308.
  328. andrey.g has left
  329. larma Also, when I send each message with a new resource, I could technically use XEP-0308 standards compliant to correct any message, not only the latest
  330. larma The issue with race condition also applies to editing in MUCs, due to multi session nicks
  331. Ge0rG larma: the scoping doesn't make much sense. I'd suggest you roll a D20 to determine how many recent messages you accept edits for, and only count those based on the sender's bare JID / identity
  332. Ge0rG larma: also you could hope that a user won't send a message from device A and *at the same time* edit an old message from device B
  333. Zash Aren't edits by id too?
  334. larma Ge0rG, question is not only for incoming but also outgoing. And "at the same time" could be caused by a mobile device coming back online and having that message still in its offline queue.
  335. larma Zash, yes, we do have the ID, but 0308 has some obscure rules beside ID (which seems to be so that legacy fallback can easier spot that it's a correction)
  336. Ge0rG larma: yaxim is limiting editing to the last 10 messages from the same sender
  337. Ge0rG larma: the XEP author said "editing other than the last message is out of scope of the XEP"
  338. Ge0rG and don't even get me started on which ID to edit in multi-edits.
  339. larma so yaxim allows incoming and outcoming edits that are not specified in any standard?
  340. Ge0rG yes.
  341. Ge0rG and it's even worse than that.
  342. larma And then other clients don't support those edits incoming I guess? So UX is crap
  343. Ge0rG yaxim allows edits in semi-anon MUCs originating from the same nickname, even if somebody stole the nickname
  344. Ge0rG larma: 🤷
  345. larma re nick stealing: 0421 to the rescue?
  346. Blue has left
  347. Ge0rG larma: 0421 has interesting issues of its own. But yes, it's on my long-term todo list
  348. Ge0rG which is probably just an elaborate way of saying: I don't care
  349. Ge0rG if you want to attach identity to nicknames in semi-anon MUCs, then register the nicknames or don't use semi-anon
  350. larma also, which clients will allow this correction-10-messages-ago incoming? And why 10? And is that the last 10 by bare jid, so if I write 1 message X with resource A and then >10 message with resource B, you don't allow correction of message X anymore (even though you should under XEP-0308)?
  351. Ge0rG larma: 1. yaxim, I don't care about the others. 2. It seemed like a good trade-off, given nobody else cared about it. 3. Yes, by bare JID (or by nickname in MUCs)
  352. larma Great, so we probably have a mix of incompatible rules for last message correction in various clients and even the spec is broken by design
  353. Ge0rG larma: indeed
  354. larma So, how do we fix this mess?
  355. Ge0rG larma: write a new XEP that extends 0308 to the last N messages.
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  358. Ge0rG larma: Daniel suggested YMC, "YOLO Message Correction", allowing to edit any messages regardless of age and sender.
  359. Ge0rG I can't find any relevant mail from me to standards, so it probably was buried in a Council meeting
  360. larma But when we do "any message correction", fallback body becomes pretty useless, no?
  361. Ge0rG fallback body of what?
  362. larma well fallback body of correction
  363. Ge0rG why should there be a *fallback* body?
  364. larma for clients not supporting it?
  365. Zash fallback body should be "I mean $message *"
  366. Ge0rG larma: there is no fallback body in 0308
  367. larma Ge0rG, well the body is the fallback
  368. Ge0rG larma: the body is the newbody.
  369. larma Well, it happens to have two usecases at the same time
  370. larma because legacy clients will display it as a normal message
  371. larma which is ok, if it really is the last message
  372. larma which is ok, if it really is the last message, see?
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  374. Ge0rG larma: so your point is: correcting an older message will lead to confusion in non-0308 client users?
  375. larma with 0308 we don't really have that problem due to its restriction to the last message.
  376. larma if we allow edits of older messages though, we get into trouble
  377. Ge0rG let me make a controversial proposal: editing of older messages should be restricted by their age, not by their amount.
  378. larma still the same issue, no?
  379. Zash Why not both‽
  380. Ge0rG it's happened to me many times that I sent a message, then another one, then realized I had a typo in the first one.
  381. Ge0rG larma: actually it's a much worse issue: time is relative
  382. Zash Sneak-edit of a message that has scrolled out of view seems about as bad as a sneak-edit of a 7 hour old message.
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  384. larma "sneak-edit"?
  385. Zash Snake edit?
  386. Zash Snape edit!
  387. Zash I mean an edit that you're unlikely to notice
  388. Zash Ie because it scrolled out of view.
  389. larma I don't consider those an issue really
  390. Ge0rG Zash: but how large is the view?
  391. Zash Either because time passed or because discussio
  392. Zash Ge0rG, three fiddy
  393. Ge0rG in yaxim, a view is roughly ten messages. See, I found a reason for the arbitrary number
  394. Zash Dice roll
  395. larma If I edit an old message that is probably scrolled out of view at the recipient, I must expect the edit not to be recognized by them
  396. larma that's ok
  397. Ge0rG larma: "But you said yes to my contract proposal, it's binding now!"
  398. Ge0rG the older a message, the lower the probability that you actually *need* to edit it.
  399. larma Ge0rG, "My client says 'Yes (edited)', and you changed to from 'No'"
  400. larma Ge0rG, "My client says 'Yes (edited)', and you changed it from 'No'"
  401. larma Also, this seems to be a social issue, not a protocol issue.
  402. Ge0rG of course it is
  403. larma I can also edit paper contracts after you signed them, even without you noticing.
  404. larma I don't think we need to do better than reality here.
  405. Ge0rG larma: what limits do you consider sensible?
  406. larma No limit?
  407. Ge0rG edit everything?
  408. larma Yes, but I don't see the solution for the "not sure which message was edited" in the fallback case
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  410. larma except not showing edits to legacy clients at all.
  411. Ge0rG larma: stop caring too much about legacy clients.
  412. Ge0rG if you edit the 11th-last message, yaxim will not merge the edit into the original, but will display this as a new message with an "edited" tag
  413. larma Ge0rG, legacy client = literally every client right now
  414. Ge0rG 0308 is part of Advanced IM 2020
  415. larma Yes, but only the "version" accepting an edit of the last message of each full jid by the corresponding bare jid, which I bet nobody implements.
  416. pep. fwiw I was also considering with poezio taking into account more than the latest, in a proper way. poezio already does AMC in reading
  417. pep. (maybe unintentionally, dunno, it was the case when I joined)
  418. pep. and it's possible to send AMC with /rawxml (great UX!)
  419. Ge0rG larma: 0308 was adopted in 2013, that was long before my activity started.
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  421. Ge0rG larma: I could theoretically imagine Council relaxing the "last message only" rule, but I wouldn't bet on it
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  423. larma Ge0rG, well my point is: If I fix a typo 10 messages ago, I don't want any client to display that typo-fixing as a new message, as it would just cause confusion. But I still want to be able to do those fixes.
  424. Ge0rG larma: I agree.
  425. larma So just changing XEP-0308 to allow AMC doesn't solve the issue
  426. Ge0rG larma: nothing will solve the issue right now.
  427. Ge0rG not even creating a new XEP that defines AMC on top of 0308.
  428. pep. larma, maybe using <body> for this is just wrong :P
  429. Ge0rG except maybe creating that new XEP and putting it into CS2021 and then waiting.
  430. Ge0rG pep.: please no!
  431. pep. <replace @id>correction</replace>
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  433. larma creating a new XEP that defines AMC *outside* of 0308 so that legacy clients / 0308-clients do not display the correction at all would solve the issue.
  434. larma but that implies not using <body>
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  436. larma Or precisely not using <body> in <message>
  437. pep. And then people want you to take into consideration non-implementing clients and you're back to square one
  438. Ge0rG pep.: easy: just add a legacy body into AMC!
  439. larma could still be <message><edit xmlns="urn:xmpp:edit:0"><body xmlns="jabber:client">Correction</body></edit></message>
  440. Ge0rG larma: that would make some sense indeed.
  441. Ge0rG would allow differentiating the *edited* part from the edit metadata part.
  442. pep. larma, I'm not sure I understand the intent
  443. pep. non-implementing clients won't understand this
  444. larma <message><body>/me edits "Corection" in message from 01:02:03 to "Correction"</body><edit xmlns="urn:xmpp:edit:0"><body xmlns="jabber:client">Correction</body></edit></message>
  445. Ge0rG Yeah.
  446. pep. ugh
  447. larma Fallback body *only* if I want legacy clients to display something of course
  448. larma (not in the case of fixing that one type)
  449. pep. Seeing the wire format of /me hurts every single time
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  451. pep. larma, still not sure I understand the point of <body/> in <edit/>
  452. pep. Also in your fallback you included localtime
  453. pep. Or UTC, or ?
  454. pep. Which one is it
  455. larma Well the <body> in <message> is only for those clients that don't understand the <edit>. The client supporting <edit> will just edit the old message and not display the fallback at all.
  456. pep. I did say the <body> in <edit>
  457. larma yes, that's whay is used as a replacement for the body when the client supports <edit>
  458. larma because I might want to edit other elements than edit
  459. pep. Why do you need an extra child
  460. pep. ah ok
  461. larma because I might want to edit other elements than body
  462. pep. That's the info I was missing
  463. larma And it also seems consistent to have the displayed body in the <body> element
  464. pep. If you could only edit <body>, I don't think so
  465. pep. I think it's being frowned upon anyway to edit anything else than <body/>, iiuc
  466. larma Well, if I upload a file, why not edit the description of the file (assuming a SIMS-alike file sending)
  467. pep. I'm personally fine with this
  468. Ge0rG why not replace the file with another one?
  469. larma or that
  470. Ge0rG I accidentally a dickpic.
  471. larma or if the file is a text file and has a typo in it
  472. pep. Ge0rG, the internet will have to live with it forever
  473. larma OK, solution was found, now just need someone to write the XEP 😀
  474. larma And then a council to accept it even if it's not making use of fastenings 😕
  475. Ge0rG larma: but it should make use of fastenings! You fasten the correction to the original message!
  476. larma Ge0rG, my message is end-to-end-encrypted with forward secrecy, I am not fastening anything because fastening is crap when having forward secrecy
  477. larma newsflash: OMEMO uses forward secrecy and is literally what made XMPP popular again
  478. larma but it's probably a sidecase we don't want to care about 😕
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  480. Blue Can somebody smart explain me something about stanza id xep?
  481. Ge0rG Blue: if you find somebody smart...
  482. mukt2 has left
  483. pep. larma: everyone has a different opinion on what makes XMPP (not) popular :p
  484. Blue I'm pretty sure most of you here are smart on my terms =)
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  487. Ge0rG Blue: then maybe ask the question :)
  488. larma pep., yeah, I just needed my daily criticism of the reactions decision, didn't want to actually make a point here 😉
  489. pep. hehe
  490. Zash What if we lock all stakeholders in a room until the whole reactions thing is resolved?
  491. pep. that is, everybody kills each other?
  492. flow larma> Fallback body *only* if I want legacy clients to display something of course that's also the approach which I would be pursuing
  493. Blue So, there is nice and cool "id" attribute for the message. You can edit retract confirm delivery with that and so much more. Basically - da heck is stansa id? How to behave with it?
  494. flow larma> Well, if I upload a file, why not edit the description of the file (assuming a SIMS-alike file sending) that a nice idea, but I fear it is far easier to implement just re-issuing the SIMS
  495. pep. flow, then a client displays two "media" thing?
  496. pep. For ""the same"" file
  497. flow pep., maybe, or it does only display the corrected SIMS, while still allowing data fetches of the old SIMS
  498. larma Blue, id attribute and <origin-id> id attribute should be the same. <stanza-id> is important for MUCs and MAM.
  499. Ge0rG Blue: old clients don't generate a unique id attribute.
  500. pep. Ah, fight on 0359, that's also something I was curious about
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  502. Ge0rG and <stanza-id> is added by somebody else than the sender, typically an archive
  503. flow Blue, if something doesn't explicitly talk about xep359 IDs then use the RFC 6120 IDs
  504. MattJ Blue, the 'id' attribute is optional, and set by the first entity to generate the stanza. It may not be present, and it may not be unique. The stanza-id element allows other entities (such as a client's server) to inject their own ids.
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  506. MattJ The id attribute is useful for short-term error tracking, stanza-id is useful for an entity to assign a more permanent unique id to a stanza (and it's not limited to just one)
  507. MattJ and origin-id is mostly a hack that we've discussed potentially removing in the past (though it has a couple of useful properties)
  508. Ge0rG I'm interested in those useful properties, beyond virtue signaling of "proper" ID generation
  509. Blue I just don't get how to treat them. You see, I have sort of message order in my lil app. I ordered them using ID attribute. Do i need the same order of stansaIds pointing to the same messages? Or do I just replace my pointing to the message id with newly discovered stansa id? Then how do I discover the stansa id server assigned to my outgoing message? There are attachements to the messages described in some xep, they go to stansa id, but i just checked message corrections - they go only to origin ids.... I'm a bit lost and confused =)
  510. MattJ None of the ids are guaranteed to be sortable
  511. MattJ So you can't use them for order
  512. MattJ There is currently no (sensible) way to discover the stanza-id assigned by the server to an outgoing stanza, that's something that will hopefully be fixed at some point
  513. Blue but that doesn't make sence... There is sorted by time stream of messages...
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  515. MattJ Sure, I'm not saying messages don't have an order. I'm saying that ids are not used to convey the order.
  516. Blue but... how to query the history then?
  517. LNJ has left
  518. MattJ You can still query from the last incoming message
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  520. Blue but I cant relay on time either - it's also optional (stamp if I'm not mistaken) and a little to approximate, isn't it?
  521. MattJ Yes, don't use time
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  523. Zash Time where?
  524. MattJ Anywhere
  525. Zash I do have this "origin-time" draft...
  526. zzzed Hello, when i try to start private convesation (otr) and to generate fingerprints app instant close
  527. zzzed any help?
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  532. Blue so... for that reason I build an order of messages, but seems like I have miscalculated about the id's I use in that order
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  535. zzzed anyone to help me out?
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  538. zzzed Kev MattJ ralphm
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  544. zzzed am
  545. zzzed intosi
  546. zzzed admin
  547. MattJ zzzed, you're asking the wrong people in the wrong channel
  548. MattJ Stop highlighting people for no reason please
  549. zzzed aha , where should i finde help then?
  550. MattJ What app are you using?
  551. zzzed you dont need to be rude at all , you can say on nice way
  552. zzzed PSI
  553. MattJ https://search.jabber.network/search?q=psi
  554. zzzed thanks
  555. zzzed have a nice day
  556. MattJ You too
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  580. jonas’ does anyone have a clue about those ref files we generate for XEPs?
  581. jonas’ https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/938
  582. jonas’ I’d love to get a review on that one before hiting the green button
  583. flow jonas’, lgtm
  584. jonas’ flow, can you add a review on github please?
  585. flow those are mostly used by https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/
  586. mukt2 has joined
  587. flow and as you can see, e.g. https://xmpp.org/extensions/refs/reference.XSF.XEP-0435.xml has no target
  588. flow int the root note
  589. flow in the root node
  590. flow wheras https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml2/reference.NIST.SP.800-185.xml has
  591. jonas’ flow, good, can you add that as a review on github?
  592. jonas’ thx
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  597. Zash What are this?
  598. flow Zash, "this"?
  599. Zash These refs things
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  602. flow those ref entries are consumed by xml2rfc and can be used as references in I-Ds and RFCs
  603. flow think of biblatex entries for RFCs
  604. Zash Oh-kay
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