ralphmBeyond what's been added to Trello, any other topics to discuss?
pep.Not from me
ralphm1. Minute taker
pep.Not me this time
GuusSorry, I"m here!
GuusI can do the minutes
GuusNo additional agenda items for me
ralphm2. Member opinion
ralphmFlow is asking in the context of "adopt-a-character". He would like to poll members and is thinking about using https://civs.cs.cornell.edu/. This requires email addresses though to be able to limit to one vote per person.
He asks if he can get members' email addresses."
pep.Flow was asking how to perform member opinion votes. He'd like to use https://civs.cs.cornell.edu/ (condorcet voting service) but that requires members' emails
ralphmI don't think we can do this.
pep.I am personally keen on trying out this voting method, but I'm not exactly fond of giving away members' emails, yes
jonas’can we implement concordet in memberbot?
pep.But eventually that'd be ideal
jonas’well we can’t give away email addresses today either ;)
ralphmDoesn't mean we can in fact just give out member's e-mail addresses. Even without a policy, I'm pretty sure it violates, among others, the GDPR.
jonas’can we have memberbot collect votes and put the votes in an existing concordet tool?
jonas’without passing on PII
ralphmI think Alex can rig up memberbot, but I'm unsure what you still need concordet for afterwards
GuusI feel strongly about not giving out members email addresses to a third, unless they choose to supplied it themselves (like we do with the dinner signup form).
GuusI feel strongly about not giving out members email addresses to a third party, unless they choose to supplied it themselves (like we do with the dinner signup form).
jonas’ralphm, concordet is a voting scheme beyond a simple majority vote
pep.Guus, well there we use google forms, it's not really better :P While I'm free to not answer that form, it's a requirement for me to go to the dinner
pep.Guus, well there we use google forms, it's not really better :P While I'm free not to answer that form, it's a requirement for me to go to the dinner
ralphmpep., regarding dinner, nobody's raised issues around that before. If they had, we'd have accomodated.
Guusat the very least, it's not the XSF supplying the mail addresses.
pep.I've asked multiple times not to use gforms yes, ralphm
Guus(and what he said)
Guuslet's not get into that right now.
Guusbut focus on the voting stuff.
Guusis it feasible to create / adapt a bot for this?
pep.It surely is
Guusalso: do we _need_ a fully fault tolerant / highly secure voting mechanism for something that's basically an advice on picking a pretty picture?
Guusmaybe we're overengineering this?
pep.Guus, that's beyond the point
pep.It's mostly to try out the method
MattJFeels like scope creep to me :)
pep.Some of us would like to change our voting system within the XSF and that's a perfect way to test it
jonas’I’m with pep that trying a voting method for a non-critical vote is better than trying it first in a membership/council/board vote ;)
GuusOh, I'm perfectly happy for using it as a testbed.
MattJBut this is indeed a low-priority issue as far as I'm concerned, so if it gets stuck behind a memberbot rewrite I'm not going to complain too much
pep.Ok so, "stuck being a bot rewrite" is our answer?
pep.At least we can clearly answer "no" to giving away members' emails
Guusbut, the issue at hand: will XSF give out its members email addresses.
GuusMight be good to not require the bot rewrite for the membership advice to happen.
pep.Either we adapt a bot, or we setup a voting service on our infra
GuusMight be good to not require the bot rewrite for the membership advice (on the adopt-a-character thingy) to happen.
pep.I guess that's this sorted anyway.
ralphmIs this about https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html?\
ralphmIs this about https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html?
ralphmThen you should raise this with Alex.
Guusif not correct, provide PR? It seems to be maintained pretty regularly - but there's always a chance of an error slipping through.
pep.Ah I have an AOB from Flow regarding members.json (just remembered)
ralphmpep., different from this?
ralphmIf you want, we can do it here?
pep.Ah ok, I was waiting for AOBs. Sure
pep.Privacy concerns, fullname stays in git even after being removed.
pep.I am personally not sure what to do about this or if it's a concern at all. GDPR-related
pep.And other privacy laws
jonas’hm, I’d say the fullname stays in mailing list archives, too, as well as wiki. Of course, those can be redacted, while redacting the git would be ... painful
ralphmI don't really know if we can or should do something about this.
ralphmpep., didn't you start on one long time ago?
ralphmI agree we should have one. It might be good to have some legal advice before we publish one, though.
pep.I don't think I am the right person to do this tbh. Someday(tm) can surely list things that the XSF does re privacy, but then shouldn't we need legal advice
ralphmAnyone have access to someone?
pep.Not off-hand. I can poke around but I don't expect much
ralphmGuus: good call
Guusisn't that up his alley?
Guusunsure if he's available for this, but we can ask/
pep.Somebody(tm)* (why "someday"..)
pep.Guus, can you ask? Should I ask
ralphmI've sent out the e-mails, have gotten one response, who would revisit in a few months.
pep.re comms person, I'd like to clarify some bits
ralphmI haven't heard back about my contact for communications.
pep.Ok I was kinda feeling blocked about this. I got strong hints that we didn't want to bother with contracting as long as it wasn't "necessary". And at the same time you announced you might have someone. So I wasn't entirely sure what to do
pep.I also haven't heard back from anyone, so I'll try to do another round of poking to different people.
ralphmAs for not wanting to bother, setting up a contracting relationship is not my expertise, so I am not sure what would be involved. If someone were to offer services in kind as a form of sponsorship, that would indeed make things a bunch easier.
ralphmSo it is not that I don't /want/ to.
pep.I think that's a "skill" that we should acquire one way or another, as it will come in handy. It can also "just" be contracting a party that does contracting for us.
MattJMy contact would likely want to freelance
pep.contact in? comms?
MattJSomeone I used to work who does marketing/comms is currently looking for more work
pep.Do you think you can put me in contact? or maybe you're happy to handle it?
MattJIt would be great if someone else were able, I'm a little overloaded right now
MattJBut I can definitely put you in contact
ralphmpep., and I agree that we should figure that out, but unsure how to start, and if us being incorporated in Delaware affects how this works.
MattJI don't see why, I've done plenty of contracting for Delaware companies
Guusmaybe talk to Peter?
pep.ralphm, I wasn't planning to talk about it until next week, but I've been poking SPI (https://spi-inc.org) and I see ways we could benefit from it
Guusdidn't the XSF hire laywers before?
Guusshould be a comparable process to hiring someone else.
Guus(I'm referring to Peter as I think he initiated that, back then)
ralphmGuus: I asked Peter a while ago, but we haven't before.
ralphmI think the lawyers either worked for Jabber, Inc. or were kind enough to consult without a formal relationship.
ralphmBut that doesn't mean that Peter might not have some good direction.
ralphmSo good idea to ask him.
pep.nobody re SPI?
Guussetting up a relationship with SPI would be something worth considering - but it'd take figuring out what that entails.
Seve> nobody re SPI?
I'm just reading it, didn't know them before
ralphmI can't open that website, it requires TLS <1.2
GuusI currently don't have a clue what kind of responsibilities that adds to our plate, and what we'd get in return.
ralphm(i.e. Firefox complains)
Guus(we're 15 minutes over time)
pep.ralphm, they propose services for projects incl. "Accepting donations and holding funds", "Holding substantial assets", "Holding intangible assets", "Signing Contracts", "Legal assistance", "Technical services"
pep.ralphm, yeah it complains here as well.
ralphmAh, good to know.
ralphmGuus: good point, let's continue next week.
ralphm6. Date of Next
SeveThank you guys
pep.Testing that @id thing
pep.Thanks Guus for the minutes
flowregarding mail addresses, voting and memberbot: there is potentially the option that we feed memberbot with the N voting URLs for our N members and then every member can draw an URL via memberbot
flowand regarding members.json: in germany you have to delete member/client data after a member/client leaves the society/club/company. so having members.json under VCS without explicitly pruning is a data protection violation
flowi would expect the same to be true for most of the EU
flowmy suggestion would be to move members.json outside the git onto a special folder and consider pruning the git
jonas’now I wonder if that applies to a thing incorporated in delaware
jonas’question is, where would that folder be hosted?
jonas’we don’t have non-revisioned storage which can be accessed by non-admins
flowon our infrastrucutre?
flowprobably, but that shouldn't be an issue
jonas’the wiki has revisions, all git has revisions. and I don’t know of any other systems where we could give individuals outside iteam +w
jonas’it currently *is* an issue
pep.pruning that from git is gonna be fun
jonas’which brings me back to the question: "where would that folder be hosted?"
jonas’and "on our infrastructure" is not a satisfactory answer to t hat
jonas’kitchen, for real now
flowif I only knew why it isn't an satisfactory answer, then I would be glad to make it one
pep.I guess because of "I don’t know of any other systems where we could give individuals outside iteam +w"
pep.There could be an upload folder thingy created for the secretary to update
flowis it impossible to get the xsf secretary an account?
jonas’flow, then you still need to make the file available to the build process. and, no, I’m not happy with passing around even restricted shell accounts as long as we don’t even have a central user account management on the servers.
jonas’flow, so, SSH is out of the question for now, and then the question is: what service would host that folder, who would maintain that service, and how would we handle access control for people with +w to that folder as well as the build process which needs +r
jonas’sorry, much of this was obvious from my perspective, but I can see how it might not be for everyone
flowas much as I really like a central user management, i think I wouldn't block on that
flowand i do not see an issue giving the xsf secretary an account allowing ssh
pep.What about.. storing encrypted members.json in git instead :x
flowsame issue wrt build process i'd guess
pep.hmm not so much different indeed.
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flowxep50 § 3.5.1 "Responders SHOULD consider any <x type='cancel'/> to be <x type='submit'/>."
what does is that supposed to mean? I appears that xep50 does not use form type 'cancel' anywhere (at least i could not find it)