XSF Discussion - 2020-05-03

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07:58:03 Yagiza Hello!
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07:58:37 Yagiza I have some questions about latest version of OMEMO implementation.
07:59:25 Yagiza I tried to ask in jdev@conference.jabber.org but after more than 24 hours of waiting got no answer.
07:59:39 Yagiza Can anyone here help me?
08:01:37 Yagiza Or should I ask in Standards mailing list?
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08:07:18 jonas’ Yagiza, that room is deprecated
08:07:25 jonas’ check out xmpp:jdev@muc.xmpp.org?join instead
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08:13:12 Yagiza Ok
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08:44:50 flow MattJ> Therefore it is entirely reasonable for a library with a dataforms API to perform the newline splitting/joining itself I aggree, but that doesn't mean that the library should or even must loose the information about indvidual values
08:44:59 flow MattJ> Therefore it is entirely reasonable for a library with a dataforms API to perform the newline splitting/joining itself I aggree, but that doesn't mean that the library should or even must loose the information about individual values
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08:46:11 flow hmm maybe we should do something about jdev@conference.jabber.org. remove voice for non-members? autokick with a nice hint towards jdev@muc.xmpp.org?
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08:46:39 flow not really nice but probably better than people getting the feeling being ignored there
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08:49:08 MattJ Automatically send invites to the new room?
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08:49:53 jonas’ I’d place a bot which auto-replies to anyone writing there with a link to the new room, but I can’t see what’s going on there due to the small dh key.
08:50:02 jonas’ so I’m not comfortable with running a bot there
08:50:39 MattJ > "that doesn't mean the library should lose the information about the individual values" I agree they shouldn't be lost, but they aren't... they are just represented differently :)
08:51:22 MattJ And sure, an array of strings (lines) is a potential sane API for that
08:52:06 MattJ An actual multiline string is equally sane if you have a standard line ending sequence for the current platform
08:52:15 !XSF_Martin The dh key issue should be solved once jabber.org is migrated to prosody. 😃
08:52:22 flow I agree they shouldn't be lost, but they aren't... they are just represented differently :) They are lost as soon as there is a single value containing a newline, which is, as far as I can tell, not forbidden
08:53:04 jonas’ > Data provided for fields of type "text-multi" SHOULD NOT contain any newlines (the \n and \r characters).
08:53:07 jonas’ it’s a SHOULD NOT at least
08:53:42 flow until we we have a nice bot or something in the old jdev@, we potentially should do something we can do right now, like changing the MUC configuration
08:54:18 flow jonas’, right, not a MUST. and this is unrelated to the question why we shouldn't simply use text-multi for MAM IDs
08:54:22 MattJ We set the subject iirc
08:54:26 MattJ In old jdev
08:55:18 flow so I wonder if we should prevent particpants for writing to the MUC? not really nice, but potentially better compared to them feeling ignored
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09:00:46 MattJ Could do, yeah
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09:54:37 flow Syndace, If I am not mistaken you are one of the authors of the quick response xep, right? If so, is there any reason why this examples declare xml:lang multiple times instead of simply once at the stanza level?
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09:58:48 Syndace flow: I guessed that clients set the xml:lang on stream level or on the <body>.
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09:59:39 Syndace So no good reason, could also set it on the message stanza
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09:59:57 jonas’ best is to mix it up and use it inconsistently throughout the examples
10:00:05 jonas’ remind everyone about the inheritance rules
10:00:28 flow Syndace, some of them probably due, but it is desireable that examples follow best practices, plus what jonas said
10:00:57 flow Syndace, some of them probably do, but it is desireable that examples follow best practices, plus what jonas said
10:01:07 Syndace That implies that best practice is setting it on the message stanza?
10:01:25 flow Syndace, i'd say best practices is to avoid bytes on the wire when possible
10:02:17 flow in the real world, xml:lang is often defined at stream level so you wouldn't find it neither on the stanza or extension element level
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10:02:41 flow in the real world, xml:lang is often defined at stream level so you shouldn't find it neither on the stanza or extension element level (if it matches the stream level definition)
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10:02:59 flow but for examples, on the stanza level is probably good enough
10:03:17 Syndace Right. Will mix it up a bit :)
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10:04:19 flow after thinking a bit about it, am I actually not soo sure about the mixing. since xml:lang plays a key rule in the xep, it is maybe sensible to remind the reader of xml:lang inheritance rules and how the affect this particular protocol *in text*
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10:04:59 Syndace I think I do?
10:05:18 jonas’ that, too
10:05:35 jonas’ most of the time, you’ll find the attribute on the stanza though, since servers have to carry it over from the stream level when routing the stanza
10:05:41 flow I think it is actually a bit confusing in the text
10:05:50 jonas’ and I doubt many check if it happens to coincide with the xml:lang they set on the s2s tsream
10:05:51 flow "The xml:lang set on this element MUST mirror the xml:lang of the <body> included in the message stanza next to the <action> element."
10:05:56 Syndace Maybe I don't repeat the inheritance rules, but I state that the body and the quick response elements must have the same xml:lang and that only one body is supported
10:06:21 flow that makes it sound that you need to explicitly set xml:lang on the element to the readers unfamiliar with XML rules
10:06:51 Syndace right, it forces you to set xml:lang on the elemenz
10:07:08 flow which would lead to implementations emitting elements where it is explicitly set, and even worse implementations requiring it to be explicitly set
10:07:25 flow which would lead to implementations emitting elements where it is explicitly set, and even worse, implementations requiring it to be explicitly set
10:08:10 Syndace I'm not 100% sure. "Mirroring" implies that if there is no xml:lang on the body, there is also no xml:lang on the action
10:08:54 flow Syndace, are you talking about effective xml:lang on the body or explicitly set xml:lang on the body?
10:09:32 Syndace Explicit
10:10:02 flow no xep should ever depend on explicitly set inherited xml attributes values
10:10:02 Syndace Actually, it doesn't even matter
10:10:19 flow At least xmlns and xml:lang are inherited
10:11:13 Syndace Is there a document I can refer to regarding xml:lang or do I repeat the rules myself
10:11:39 flow I am currently trying to find out if the quick response xep does require explicitly set xml:lang in the extension element. I think it currently at least gives the impression
10:12:21 flow Syndace, xml 1.0 § 2.12
10:12:22 Syndace I agree that the current phrasing might be interpreted as requiring xml:lang, even though that wasn't my intention
10:13:09 Syndace What I want to say is "the effective xml:lang of the action element MUST be equivalent to the effective xml:lang of the body"
10:16:01 Syndace > Syndace, xml 1.0 § 2.12 cool, thanks
10:28:13 flow Syndace, you are welcome, and thanks for the XEP (and that's from one as someone who loves data forms and ad-hoc commands) :)
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10:40:49 Syndace Looking forward to where this XEP is going, I expect a bit of a wild ride :)
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11:01:12 marc MattJ, Ge0rG: I modified 401 a bit and have also a first ejabberd implementation based on 389 http://dump.zapb.de/xeps/xep-0401.html#preauth-ibr
11:01:40 marc Atm, I implemented it like in example 12 and 14
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22:00:13 Maranda I think the next thing I'll implement will be 409, a good portion of 386 is already done.
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