XSF Discussion - 2020-05-03

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Yagiza 07:58:03
Hello!
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Yagiza 07:58:37
I have some questions about latest version of OMEMO implementation.
Yagiza 07:59:25
I tried to ask in jdev@conference.jabber.org but after more than 24 hours of waiting got no answer.
Yagiza 07:59:39
Can anyone here help me?
Yagiza 08:01:37
Or should I ask in Standards mailing list?
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jonas’ 08:07:18
Yagiza, that room is deprecated
jonas’ 08:07:25
check out xmpp:jdev@muc.xmpp.org?join instead
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Yagiza 08:13:12
Ok
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flow 08:44:50
MattJ> Therefore it is entirely reasonable for a library with a dataforms API to perform the newline splitting/joining itself I aggree, but that doesn't mean that the library should or even must loose the information about indvidual values ✎
flow 08:44:59
MattJ> Therefore it is entirely reasonable for a library with a dataforms API to perform the newline splitting/joining itself I aggree, but that doesn't mean that the library should or even must loose the information about individual values ✏
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flow 08:46:11
hmm maybe we should do something about jdev@conference.jabber.org. remove voice for non-members? autokick with a nice hint towards jdev@muc.xmpp.org?
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flow 08:46:39
not really nice but probably better than people getting the feeling being ignored there
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MattJ 08:49:08
Automatically send invites to the new room?
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jonas’ 08:49:53
I’d place a bot which auto-replies to anyone writing there with a link to the new room, but I can’t see what’s going on there due to the small dh key.
jonas’ 08:50:02
so I’m not comfortable with running a bot there
MattJ 08:50:39
> "that doesn't mean the library should lose the information about the individual values" I agree they shouldn't be lost, but they aren't... they are just represented differently :)
MattJ 08:51:22
And sure, an array of strings (lines) is a potential sane API for that
MattJ 08:52:06
An actual multiline string is equally sane if you have a standard line ending sequence for the current platform
!XSF_Martin 08:52:15
The dh key issue should be solved once jabber.org is migrated to prosody. 😃
flow 08:52:22
I agree they shouldn't be lost, but they aren't... they are just represented differently :) They are lost as soon as there is a single value containing a newline, which is, as far as I can tell, not forbidden
jonas’ 08:53:04
> Data provided for fields of type "text-multi" SHOULD NOT contain any newlines (the \n and \r characters).
jonas’ 08:53:07
it’s a SHOULD NOT at least
flow 08:53:42
until we we have a nice bot or something in the old jdev@, we potentially should do something we can do right now, like changing the MUC configuration
flow 08:54:18
jonas’, right, not a MUST. and this is unrelated to the question why we shouldn't simply use text-multi for MAM IDs
MattJ 08:54:22
We set the subject iirc
MattJ 08:54:26
In old jdev
flow 08:55:18
so I wonder if we should prevent particpants for writing to the MUC? not really nice, but potentially better compared to them feeling ignored
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MattJ 09:00:46
Could do, yeah
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flow 09:54:37
Syndace, If I am not mistaken you are one of the authors of the quick response xep, right? If so, is there any reason why this examples declare xml:lang multiple times instead of simply once at the stanza level?
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Syndace 09:58:48
flow: I guessed that clients set the xml:lang on stream level or on the <body>.
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Syndace 09:59:39
So no good reason, could also set it on the message stanza
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jonas’ 09:59:57
best is to mix it up and use it inconsistently throughout the examples
jonas’ 10:00:05
remind everyone about the inheritance rules
flow 10:00:28
~~Syndace, some of them probably due, but it is desireable that examples follow best practices, plus what jonas said~~ ✎
flow 10:00:57
Syndace, some of them probably do, but it is desireable that examples follow best practices, plus what jonas said ✏
Syndace 10:01:07
That implies that best practice is setting it on the message stanza?
flow 10:01:25
Syndace, i'd say best practices is to avoid bytes on the wire when possible
flow 10:02:17
~~in the real world, xml:lang is often defined at stream level so you wouldn't find it neither on the stanza or extension element level~~ ✎
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flow 10:02:41
in the real world, xml:lang is often defined at stream level so you shouldn't find it neither on the stanza or extension element level (if it matches the stream level definition) ✏
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flow 10:02:59
but for examples, on the stanza level is probably good enough
Syndace 10:03:17
Right. Will mix it up a bit :)
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flow 10:04:19
after thinking a bit about it, am I actually not soo sure about the mixing. since xml:lang plays a key rule in the xep, it is maybe sensible to remind the reader of xml:lang inheritance rules and how the affect this particular protocol *in text*
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Syndace 10:04:59
I think I do?
jonas’ 10:05:18
that, too
jonas’ 10:05:35
most of the time, you’ll find the attribute on the stanza though, since servers have to carry it over from the stream level when routing the stanza
flow 10:05:41
I think it is actually a bit confusing in the text
jonas’ 10:05:50
and I doubt many check if it happens to coincide with the xml:lang they set on the s2s tsream
flow 10:05:51
"The xml:lang set on this element MUST mirror the xml:lang of the <body> included in the message stanza next to the <action> element."
Syndace 10:05:56
Maybe I don't repeat the inheritance rules, but I state that the body and the quick response elements must have the same xml:lang and that only one body is supported
flow 10:06:21
that makes it sound that you need to explicitly set xml:lang on the element to the readers unfamiliar with XML rules
Syndace 10:06:51
right, it forces you to set xml:lang on the elemenz
flow 10:07:08
~~which would lead to implementations emitting elements where it is explicitly set, and even worse implementations requiring it to be explicitly set~~ ✎
flow 10:07:25
which would lead to implementations emitting elements where it is explicitly set, and even worse, implementations requiring it to be explicitly set ✏
Syndace 10:08:10
I'm not 100% sure. "Mirroring" implies that if there is no xml:lang on the body, there is also no xml:lang on the action
flow 10:08:54
Syndace, are you talking about effective xml:lang on the body or explicitly set xml:lang on the body?
Syndace 10:09:32
Explicit
flow 10:10:02
no xep should ever depend on explicitly set inherited xml attributes values
Syndace 10:10:02
Actually, it doesn't even matter
flow 10:10:19
At least xmlns and xml:lang are inherited
Syndace 10:11:13
Is there a document I can refer to regarding xml:lang or do I repeat the rules myself
flow 10:11:39
I am currently trying to find out if the quick response xep does require explicitly set xml:lang in the extension element. I think it currently at least gives the impression
flow 10:12:21
Syndace, xml 1.0 § 2.12
Syndace 10:12:22
I agree that the current phrasing might be interpreted as requiring xml:lang, even though that wasn't my intention
Syndace 10:13:09
What I want to say is "the effective xml:lang of the action element MUST be equivalent to the effective xml:lang of the body"
Syndace 10:16:01
> Syndace, xml 1.0 § 2.12 cool, thanks
flow 10:28:13
Syndace, you are welcome, and thanks for the XEP (and that's from one as someone who loves data forms and ad-hoc commands) :)
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Syndace 10:40:49
Looking forward to where this XEP is going, I expect a bit of a wild ride :)
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marc 11:01:12
MattJ, Ge0rG: I modified 401 a bit and have also a first ejabberd implementation based on 389 http://dump.zapb.de/xeps/xep-0401.html#preauth-ibr
marc 11:01:40
Atm, I implemented it like in example 12 and 14
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Maranda 22:00:13
I think the next thing I'll implement will be 409, a good portion of 386 is already done.
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