XSF Discussion - 2020-05-04

  1. Neustradamus

    About old and new mucrooms... There is not forward possibility? :)

  2. pep.

    That depends on the oldroom, and also on client support (via <gone/>)

  3. Zash

    Should write something about that, Informational XEP or something. Tombstones and redirects.

  4. jonas’

    tomatoes and redirects

  5. marc

    MattJ, Ge0rG: any comments so far? I would like to make progress soon

  6. MattJ

    marc: sorry, I've had limited time the past week or so

  7. MattJ

    Will look into it today if I can

  8. Ge0rG

    same from me

  9. Ge0rG

    need to read and understand both proposals first.

  10. Guus

    XEP-0289 FMUC question, related to section 5.2 ( https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0289.html#messages ). The example describes how a joining FMUC node (elsinore) sends a message to the joined FMUC node (rabbithole). Federation is configured to use the master-slave mode (where rabbithole is the master). This sentence makes me wonder if I misunderstand a key part of the XEP: > This example is for master-master mode, so rabbithole does not echo the message back to elsinore and elsinore does not need to wait for receipt of this stanza from rabbithole (...) As I understand the XEP, the federation is initiated by elisnore. This is where the configuration lives. No negotiation of the configuration (specifically, the type of mode that's used) seems to take place. This is also referenced to in section 5.1: > Note that this configuration only needs to be one way (that is: there is no protocol reason why rabbithole needs to know that elsinor will be federating with it in advance) How does rabbithole determine that it needs not echo the message back to elsinore?

  11. marc

    MattJ, Ge0rG: đź‘Ť

  12. Guus

    (I've taking my question above to the list)

  13. Guus

    (I've taken my question above to the list)

  14. Zash

    Does anyone remember what led XEP-0215 to be broadened from "STUN Server Discovery for Jingle" to the generic-but-not-quite "External Service Discovery" it is now? ( check https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/xep-0215-0.1.html ) Going to look trough some archives prior to https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2007-August/thread.html#16602 but there's not much explicit mention of 215 in any subjects)

  15. Zash


  16. Zash

    Yeah, that seems to be the thread

  17. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    What is this Room about?

  18. Zash

    The XMPP standards

  19. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Zash: ahh - direct sending of files from user to user should be default :)

  20. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    And possible with any size file

  21. pep.


  22. jonas’

    you seem to be misunderstanding what "standards" or "xmpp" means in this context

  23. pep.

    Also I would like to raise to our non-existent Code of Conduct committee some issues I have.

  24. Zash

    This is about boring text documents that describe how you'd do that. It's up to developers to decide what methods to use when.

  25. Zash

    pep., write a Procedural XEP about it? :P

  26. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Well I thought XMPP could do direct sending of files like in the old days chat applications.

  27. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    I guess the server decide then on the size of the file.

  28. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life


  29. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    So if i wanna send a 4 gb file to someone how to do it on XMPP?

  30. vanitasvitae

    DarkiJah: this is possible with a protocol called Jingle.

  31. vanitasvitae

    XEP-0234 iirc

  32. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    vanitasvitae: great, that is the same thing used for voice and video?

  33. moparisthebest

    actually a few ways I think? but yes, direct user to user can happen with existing protocols

  34. vanitasvitae

    Kind of

  35. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    So we just need someone to put it into XMPP clients?

  36. Zash

    This is already done for files too large to upload to the server afaik

  37. moparisthebest

    the problem is DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life , you might not want that, or your contact might not want it, I'm connected to the same account via various clients at the moment, how do *you* know which client *I* want to recieve said file on?

  38. vanitasvitae

    Jingle is used for negotiation of a transport

  39. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    moparisthebest: lets get back to the old days then sending a file directly fron user to user :)

  40. moparisthebest

    and explain how to do that if your contact is connected via multiple clients?

  41. moparisthebest

    in the old days, you were just connected from your PC :P

  42. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    moparisthebest: you couls accept on the client you want it???

  43. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life


  44. moparisthebest

    DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life, what if you went offline before I decided where I wanted to accept it?

  45. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    moparisthebest: don't make it harder then it is :)

  46. vanitasvitae

    But it is

  47. moparisthebest

    this is the problem http upload solves

  48. Zash

    Use https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html

  49. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Then it gets lost of cause no brainy

  50. moparisthebest

    you upload it, I can grab it from any of my clients whenever I choose later, even if we aren't online at the same time

  51. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Yes but you don't have the option for bigger files.

  52. moparisthebest

    yes you do?

  53. vanitasvitae

    If you run your own server you can decide that limit

  54. moparisthebest

    you can set your http upload server to accept *any* size file

  55. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Its needing s middle man which is a bottle neck

  56. moparisthebest

    mine is set to allow 1gb for example

  57. vanitasvitae

    But its better for multi client use cases

  58. moparisthebest

    also MUC like here

  59. vanitasvitae

    Like, you want to receive the file on two devices? With jingle you have to send it twice

  60. vanitasvitae


  61. vanitasvitae

    I can understand the appeal of jingle file transfer, but http upload is what most people really want to use

  62. vanitasvitae

    But again, modern clients often support both methods

  63. moparisthebest

    Conversations does at least

  64. vanitasvitae

    Gajim too, right?

  65. moparisthebest

    I'd assume so

  66. vanitasvitae

    Gajim implements XEP-**** :P

  67. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Sound file incoming on the subject

  68. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life


  69. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Are audio files stored on the mobile by the way?

  70. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Like the one I just posted?

  71. Zash

    This is a question for the developer of your client

  72. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Zash: roger

  73. moparisthebest

    well, that one is stored on your http upload server for a time too, and another example where direct transfer wouldn't work

  74. moparisthebest

    I'm not going to listen to it regardless :)

  75. vanitasvitae

    DarkiJah: as already said, jingle file transfer is what you describe, and its a thing

  76. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    moparisthebest: well no point in talking to you further.

  77. vanitasvitae

    So if you want to make use of it, go ahead :)

  78. moparisthebest

    DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life, because I'm texting and aren't going to listen to your recordings instead? meh

  79. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    Roger, see if I can point it out to some of the programmers

  80. vanitasvitae

    You are welcome to do so :)

  81. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    moparisthebest: why use time on you and the the subject if your not going to listen to/my arguments.

  82. vanitasvitae

    Just dont expect people to immediatelly implement it, as its not exactly trivial to do.

  83. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    vanitasvitae: you mean it is not easy to do?

  84. vanitasvitae

    I implemented it and it took 3 months

  85. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life

    vanitasvitae: 3 month to make?

  86. vanitasvitae

    And since it really only suits an edge case (sending large files), I personally wouldnt implement it again

  87. vanitasvitae


  88. vanitasvitae

    Most people are okay with sending smaller files

  89. DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life


  90. vanitasvitae

    For bigger files there are other methods like uploading the file to a cloud or whatever

  91. vanitasvitae

    I understand your arguments and your opinion, but I also have my own :)

  92. Zash

    Uploading to a cloud, just like HTTP upload?

  93. vanitasvitae


  94. vanitasvitae

    s/cloud/some service with a higher limit/g

  95. Zash

    Nothing about the http upload itself prevents you from hooking that up :)

  96. vanitasvitae

    Sure :)

  97. vanitasvitae

    I think there are even modules that allow upload to eg. Nextcloud, right?

  98. Zash

    Dunno, I don't see there couldn't be.

  99. moparisthebest

    DarkiJah - JesusIsGodAlmighty.Life, you misunderstand, I'll *read* your arguments, I'm not *listening* to anything

  100. moparisthebest

    I tried to explain what you want is 1. already implemented 2. suboptimal/impossible depending on certain things

  101. moparisthebest

    if you have further questions, go for it

  102. Zash

    Guus, I don't see any FMUC post yet

  103. Zash

    Oh hold on is my email broken?

  104. Zash

    Seems I've been accidentally IPv6-only for a week.

  105. moparisthebest

    probably a pretty good sign that you hardly noticed :)

  106. Zash


  107. Guus

    > probably a pretty good sign that you hardly noticed :) Not receiving email is a good way to not notice outage.

  108. Zash

    Receiving high-volume mail but not low-volume mail is even better

  109. Guus

    Do like thoughts on that fmuc issue

  110. Guus

    Mostly: is that an omission in the XEP, or did I misunderstand something?