XSF Discussion - 2020-05-09

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01:10:29 Neustradamus_ I am not sure but SCRAM-SHA-256(-PLUS) is prefered than SCRAM-SHA-1(-PLUS) no? -> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0438.html
01:11:50 Neustradamus_ RFC 8600 is not listed -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8600 "When using the SASL SCRAM mechanism, the SCRAM-SHA-256-PLUS variant SHOULD be preferred over the SCRAM-SHA-256 variant, and SHA-256 variants [RFC7677] SHOULD be preferred over SHA-1 variants [RFC5802])"
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01:21:32 Neustradamus_ -> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/944
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01:28:50 pep. Neustradamus_, I'm not sure you understand what you just changed. All the SCRAM-*-PLUS are on the same level, they have the same priority
01:29:22 pep. Also github is not the venue to discuss specifications
01:31:13 pep. The RFC8600 thing seems like a valid concern though (not for me to judge, I'm no crypto-specialist). You should raise this on the standards list
01:31:19 Neustradamus_ pep.: Thanks for your reply
01:31:27 Neustradamus_ Prefered is not same
01:31:38 Neustradamus_ -> "When using the SASL SCRAM mechanism, the SCRAM-SHA-256-PLUS variant SHOULD be preferred over the SCRAM-SHA-256 variant, and SHA-256 variants [RFC7677] SHOULD be preferred over SHA-1 variants [RFC5802])"
01:32:49 pep. I'm sorry I don't understand what you're trying to say
01:33:14 pep. (and I'm also not the one to be convinced by the way)
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01:33:58 Neustradamus_ SCRAM-SHA-256-PLUS > SCRAM-SHA-256 > SCRAM-SHA-1-PLUS > SCRAM-SHA-1
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01:35:27 pep. I invite you to raise this issue on the standards list then if you think it's important.
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01:35:59 pep. I'm going to close the github issue you opened though as it's not what we use github for
01:36:08 Neustradamus_ pep.: no no no
01:36:14 pep. no?
01:36:27 Neustradamus_ It is important to keep open, the problem is not solved.
01:36:36 pep. This is not the place to open it
01:36:43 pep. The place is the standards mailing list
01:36:49 Neustradamus_ I think you can close all opened issues
01:37:09 Neustradamus_ Look here: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues
01:37:23 pep. No, opened issues are editorial issues, not issues about standards
01:37:47 pep. That is, something not being properly displayed, or broken links etc.
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01:38:31 pep. Is that ok?
01:38:38 Neustradamus_ There is an editorial problem here
01:38:47 pep. No there isn't.
01:38:55 pep. You're trying to change the meaning of a standard
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01:40:49 pep. Again if you want this to change, it may be a very valid concern, we have processes in place (sometimes annoying I give you that, but there are there nonetheless for reasons)
01:41:41 pep. Are you fine with me closing the issue now? :)
01:42:20 Neustradamus_ No.
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01:42:57 pep. Well I'm sorry I tried the peaceful way.. but I'm going to close it anyway
01:43:17 pep. If it happens I'm wrong I am very sorry but I really don't think this is an editorial issue.
01:43:28 Neustradamus_ A ticket is here for a trace, we do not close a not solved ticket...
01:44:10 pep. So if you open a ticket on my XMPP client tracker saying "There is hunger in the world", should I keep it open forever?
01:44:21 pep. Even if it's unrelated
01:44:27 pep. (well somewhat..)
01:45:21 pep. Does this make sense?
01:46:22 Neustradamus_ I can create a new ticket for explain missing RFC 8600 in XEP-0438 :)
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01:46:32 pep. Github is not the place for this.
01:46:34 pep. Period.
01:46:34 Neustradamus_ I can create a new ticket to explain missing RFC 8600 in XEP-0438 :)
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01:46:53 pep. If you want to change standards, send an email to the standards list, please.
01:46:58 Neustradamus_ Please re-add the tracker.xmpp.org ^^
01:47:19 pep. Raise that to board if that's an issue for you, I'll be happy to raise it
01:47:29 pep. (Unfortunately I have an idea of the answer)
01:47:48 Neustradamus_ We will see the return of stpeter about it.
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01:50:19 Neustradamus_ I know that some people think that SCRAM-SHA-256(-PLUS) is not needed.
01:50:45 pep. I hope you understand this is not what I am discussing here
01:51:56 Neustradamus_ It is the official XSF MUC Room :) Maybe we must talk on jdev?
01:52:22 pep. That is not what I mean
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01:54:15 pep. I'll do it in french quickly: Le fait que SCRAM-SHA-256* soit important ou pas n'est pas la question pour moi ici. La question c'est que Github n'est pas un endroit où on souhaite avoir des discussions concernant les spécifications. Les discussions sur le tracker sont uniquement déstinées à la forme (formattage, liens cassés, etc.). Les discussions sur les spécifications se passent sur la liste « standards »
01:54:43 pep. (And that's it for baguette)
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01:57:35 pep. And I'm going to sleep now :x night
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06:07:11 Daniel Fwiw the benefits PLUS offers definitely outweigh the downsides of Sha1 over over sha2
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13:20:14 flow I have the same feeling, but that it's crypto territory, so I'd really like if someone could provide some arguments in either direction ;)
13:21:38 flow I can 't find anything in my notes, but wasn't there something like tls-server-end-point being broken (or "broken")? it's been a loooong time since I looked deeply into the various channel binding types and TLS.
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13:29:13 flow hmm sam writes that tls-server-end-point is not specified(/avaialble?) in TLS 1.3? I'd assume that is the cb type that would also work, since IIRC it's simply the hash of the server certificate
13:29:26 flow hmm sam writes that tls-server-end-point is not specified(/avaialble?) in TLS 1.3? I'd assume that is the cb type that would always work, since IIRC it's simply the hash of the server certificate
13:29:57 Zash The TLS 1.3 RFC says in an appendix that channel bindings are not defined.
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13:30:40 Zash In a (oh btw those aren't defined), in the cellar behind a locked door marked "beware the otter"
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13:34:16 flow Zash, thanks. But does this mean it is impossible for technical reasons to use tls-server-end-point with TLS 1.3?
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13:36:12 Zash The only reason I know of is the parenthesis in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#appendix-C.5
13:36:14 Neustradamus_ Zash: maybe but software can add it
13:36:26 Neustradamus_ I will show you examples
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13:39:54 Zash flow: the main implementation issue for me is that you need to know the signature algorithm used in the cert and I don't know it because all I have is a cert object with very limited introspection
13:40:08 Zash tho 99% of the time it'll be SHA-256, so you could just guess that
13:40:48 Zash because of how anything less than that should use SHA-256, but if someone somewhere has a cert with SHA-512 signatures then it'll break
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13:41:32 Zash and according to OpenSSL tls-unique works just fine in TLS 1.3 and I hadn't even noticed that it wasn't supposed to
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13:42:43 Neustradamus_ A lot of RFC has been done before TLS 1.3 but it is not a problem to add support.
13:43:49 Neustradamus_ Example: http://w1.fi/cgit/hostap/plain/hostapd/ChangeLog - added experimental support for EAP-TLS server with TLS v1.3 EAP-TLS in not normally with TLS v1.3.
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16:36:35 jonas’ Daniel, Ge0rG, please reply to my message on standards@ re message routing sprint
16:37:14 jonas’ Daniel, Ge0rG, I sent the announcement for the sprint just now and you’re welcome to join in :)
16:37:29 Zash jonas’, do you have a *huge* whiteboard?
16:37:42 jonas’ Zash, I hear there are online whiteboard things
16:37:54 jonas’ I think they even have "infinite" scroll :)
16:38:05 Zash on .. line? but I want 2d, not 1d! :P
16:38:14 Zash infinite zoom too?
16:38:19 jonas’ not sure
16:38:26 Ge0rG A Turing board?
16:38:26 jonas’ if only we had networked Inkscape already :)
16:38:40 Ge0rG jonas’: thanks, I'll look into it
16:38:46 Zash Yeah, that, be great, eh, Link Mauve?
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17:24:28 larma flow, > Actually the schema is irrelevant when it comes to RFC compliance. Schemas are non-normative. This is explicitly noted in the RFC. true, but the fact that this is described explicitly in the non-normative part thus very much clarifies that the lack of explicit prohibition is intentional and not by accident. Thus it's still relevant, even if non-normative. After all, the non-normative part isn't there just for fun. That's one thing I learned in law classes 😉
17:25:26 jonas’ good that you two agree (I read flows email saying essentially the same)
17:26:52 moparisthebest Do any other protocols do TLS channel binding?
17:27:58 Link Mauve Zash, if only I didn’t lose an important part of it from svn being terrible.
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17:28:27 Link Mauve I’m not done rewriting it yet. :/
17:28:48 Zash moparisthebest: Yes. Probably LDAP and protocols like that.
17:29:15 Zash moparisthebest: But HTTPS doesn't so who cares, right?
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17:29:30 moparisthebest Pretty much yes :)
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17:30:28 moparisthebest People: XMPP is too complicated XSF: hold my beer *writes more complicated authentication mechanisms with no real benefit*
17:30:50 Zash I'd feel real special if the IETF & co invented channel bindings just for us :)
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17:34:50 jonas’ As if HTTP was simple
17:35:16 jonas’ That’s a lie people can tell themselves because of widespread library support for their *simple* usecases.
17:35:29 Zash It's so simple you just GET and POST and wait what's this section about caching and content negotiation?
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