XSF Discussion - 2020-05-09

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  23. Neustradamus_

    I am not sure but SCRAM-SHA-256(-PLUS) is prefered than SCRAM-SHA-1(-PLUS) no? -> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0438.html

  24. Neustradamus_

    RFC 8600 is not listed -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8600 "When using the SASL SCRAM mechanism, the SCRAM-SHA-256-PLUS variant SHOULD be preferred over the SCRAM-SHA-256 variant, and SHA-256 variants [RFC7677] SHOULD be preferred over SHA-1 variants [RFC5802])"

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  32. Neustradamus_

    -> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/944

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  37. pep.

    Neustradamus_, I'm not sure you understand what you just changed. All the SCRAM-*-PLUS are on the same level, they have the same priority

  38. pep.

    Also github is not the venue to discuss specifications

  39. pep.

    The RFC8600 thing seems like a valid concern though (not for me to judge, I'm no crypto-specialist). You should raise this on the standards list

  40. Neustradamus_

    pep.: Thanks for your reply

  41. Neustradamus_

    Prefered is not same

  42. Neustradamus_

    -> "When using the SASL SCRAM mechanism, the SCRAM-SHA-256-PLUS variant SHOULD be preferred over the SCRAM-SHA-256 variant, and SHA-256 variants [RFC7677] SHOULD be preferred over SHA-1 variants [RFC5802])"

  43. pep.

    I'm sorry I don't understand what you're trying to say

  44. pep.

    (and I'm also not the one to be convinced by the way)

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  46. Neustradamus_


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  48. pep.

    I invite you to raise this issue on the standards list then if you think it's important.

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  50. pep.

    I'm going to close the github issue you opened though as it's not what we use github for

  51. Neustradamus_

    pep.: no no no

  52. pep.


  53. Neustradamus_

    It is important to keep open, the problem is not solved.

  54. pep.

    This is not the place to open it

  55. pep.

    The place is the standards mailing list

  56. Neustradamus_

    I think you can close all opened issues

  57. Neustradamus_

    Look here: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues

  58. pep.

    No, opened issues are editorial issues, not issues about standards

  59. pep.

    That is, something not being properly displayed, or broken links etc.

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  61. pep.

    Is that ok?

  62. Neustradamus_

    There is an editorial problem here

  63. pep.

    No there isn't.

  64. pep.

    You're trying to change the meaning of a standard

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  66. pep.

    Again if you want this to change, it may be a very valid concern, we have processes in place (sometimes annoying I give you that, but there are there nonetheless for reasons)

  67. pep.

    Are you fine with me closing the issue now? :)

  68. Neustradamus_


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  70. pep.

    Well I'm sorry I tried the peaceful way.. but I'm going to close it anyway

  71. pep.

    If it happens I'm wrong I am very sorry but I really don't think this is an editorial issue.

  72. Neustradamus_

    A ticket is here for a trace, we do not close a not solved ticket...

  73. pep.

    So if you open a ticket on my XMPP client tracker saying "There is hunger in the world", should I keep it open forever?

  74. pep.

    Even if it's unrelated

  75. pep.

    (well somewhat..)

  76. pep.

    Does this make sense?

  77. Neustradamus_

    I can create a new ticket for explain missing RFC 8600 in XEP-0438 :)

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  80. pep.

    Github is not the place for this.

  81. pep.


  82. Neustradamus_

    I can create a new ticket to explain missing RFC 8600 in XEP-0438 :)

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  85. pep.

    If you want to change standards, send an email to the standards list, please.

  86. Neustradamus_

    Please re-add the tracker.xmpp.org ^^

  87. pep.

    Raise that to board if that's an issue for you, I'll be happy to raise it

  88. pep.

    (Unfortunately I have an idea of the answer)

  89. Neustradamus_

    We will see the return of stpeter about it.

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  94. Neustradamus_

    I know that some people think that SCRAM-SHA-256(-PLUS) is not needed.

  95. pep.

    I hope you understand this is not what I am discussing here

  96. Neustradamus_

    It is the official XSF MUC Room :) Maybe we must talk on jdev?

  97. pep.

    That is not what I mean

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  99. pep.

    I'll do it in french quickly: Le fait que SCRAM-SHA-256* soit important ou pas n'est pas la question pour moi ici. La question c'est que Github n'est pas un endroit où on souhaite avoir des discussions concernant les spécifications. Les discussions sur le tracker sont uniquement déstinées à la forme (formattage, liens cassés, etc.). Les discussions sur les spécifications se passent sur la liste « standards »

  100. pep.

    (And that's it for baguette)

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  102. pep.

    And I'm going to sleep now :x night

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  170. Daniel

    Fwiw the benefits PLUS offers definitely outweigh the downsides of Sha1 over over sha2

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  364. flow

    I have the same feeling, but that it's crypto territory, so I'd really like if someone could provide some arguments in either direction ;)

  365. flow

    I can 't find anything in my notes, but wasn't there something like tls-server-end-point being broken (or "broken")? it's been a loooong time since I looked deeply into the various channel binding types and TLS.

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  374. flow

    hmm sam writes that tls-server-end-point is not specified(/avaialble?) in TLS 1.3? I'd assume that is the cb type that would also work, since IIRC it's simply the hash of the server certificate

  375. flow

    hmm sam writes that tls-server-end-point is not specified(/avaialble?) in TLS 1.3? I'd assume that is the cb type that would always work, since IIRC it's simply the hash of the server certificate

  376. Zash

    The TLS 1.3 RFC says in an appendix that channel bindings are not defined.

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  378. Zash

    In a (oh btw those aren't defined), in the cellar behind a locked door marked "beware the otter"

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  380. flow

    Zash, thanks. But does this mean it is impossible for technical reasons to use tls-server-end-point with TLS 1.3?

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  382. Zash

    The only reason I know of is the parenthesis in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#appendix-C.5

  383. Neustradamus_

    Zash: maybe but software can add it

  384. Neustradamus_

    I will show you examples

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  386. Zash

    flow: the main implementation issue for me is that you need to know the signature algorithm used in the cert and I don't know it because all I have is a cert object with very limited introspection

  387. Zash

    tho 99% of the time it'll be SHA-256, so you could just guess that

  388. Zash

    because of how anything less than that should use SHA-256, but if someone somewhere has a cert with SHA-512 signatures then it'll break

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  391. Zash

    and according to OpenSSL tls-unique works just fine in TLS 1.3 and I hadn't even noticed that it wasn't supposed to

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  394. Neustradamus_

    A lot of RFC has been done before TLS 1.3 but it is not a problem to add support.

  395. Neustradamus_

    Example: http://w1.fi/cgit/hostap/plain/hostapd/ChangeLog - added experimental support for EAP-TLS server with TLS v1.3 EAP-TLS in not normally with TLS v1.3.

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  453. jonas’

    Daniel, Ge0rG, please reply to my message on standards@ re message routing sprint

  454. jonas’

    Daniel, Ge0rG, I sent the announcement for the sprint just now and you’re welcome to join in :)

  455. Zash

    jonas’, do you have a *huge* whiteboard?

  456. jonas’

    Zash, I hear there are online whiteboard things

  457. jonas’

    I think they even have "infinite" scroll :)

  458. Zash

    on .. line? but I want 2d, not 1d! :P

  459. Zash

    infinite zoom too?

  460. jonas’

    not sure

  461. Ge0rG

    A Turing board?

  462. jonas’

    if only we had networked Inkscape already :)

  463. Ge0rG

    jonas’: thanks, I'll look into it

  464. Zash

    Yeah, that, be great, eh, Link Mauve?

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  490. larma

    flow, > Actually the schema is irrelevant when it comes to RFC compliance. Schemas are non-normative. This is explicitly noted in the RFC. true, but the fact that this is described explicitly in the non-normative part thus very much clarifies that the lack of explicit prohibition is intentional and not by accident. Thus it's still relevant, even if non-normative. After all, the non-normative part isn't there just for fun. That's one thing I learned in law classes 😉

  491. jonas’

    good that you two agree (I read flows email saying essentially the same)

  492. moparisthebest

    Do any other protocols do TLS channel binding?

  493. Link Mauve

    Zash, if only I didn’t lose an important part of it from svn being terrible.

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  496. Link Mauve

    I’m not done rewriting it yet. :/

  497. Zash

    moparisthebest: Yes. Probably LDAP and protocols like that.

  498. Zash

    moparisthebest: But HTTPS doesn't so who cares, right?

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  500. moparisthebest

    Pretty much yes :)

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  502. moparisthebest

    People: XMPP is too complicated XSF: hold my beer *writes more complicated authentication mechanisms with no real benefit*

  503. Zash

    I'd feel real special if the IETF & co invented channel bindings just for us :)

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  505. jonas’

    As if HTTP was simple

  506. jonas’

    That’s a lie people can tell themselves because of widespread library support for their *simple* usecases.

  507. Zash

    It's so simple you just GET and POST and wait what's this section about caching and content negotiation?

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  611. Zash


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