XSF Discussion - 2020-05-13

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  24. stpeter Also of interest, the Eclipse Foundation has decided to move from Canada to Belgium: https://newsroom.eclipse.org/news/announcements/open-source-software-leader-eclipse-foundation-announces-transition-europe-part
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  187. Guus pep. That could be a very good opportunity. What can we do to secure funding? I'm guessing we need to define explicit ways to make use of the funds?
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  238. pep. Are we a 501c3 again?
  239. pep. I don't think I've ever seen that anywhere on the website
  240. Zash https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation.html ought to have a link to the bylaws somewhere
  241. pep. At first that kinda look like encouraging solutionism (again). But then there are things like “Research and documentation on: Censorship / use of surveillance” :p
  242. MattJ pep., https://xmpp.org/docs/XSF-Tax-Exempt-Ruling-2007.pdf
  243. pep. ok
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  246. Zash The page I linked should also mention the form of corporation
  247. pep. Zash: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/bylaws.html doesn't say either
  248. pep. (I just know the URL, don't remember where I found it)
  249. Zash https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation.html#council > as augmented by [various policies and procedures]. That links to https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/council-policies-and-procedures which links to the bylaws
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  257. pep. https://www.isocfoundation.org/grant-programme/emergency-response-grant-programme-covid19/ > Demonstrate previous experience in managing grants of at least US$250,000 within a one-year period. Experience in managing subawards to local groups is desirable as well. > [..]
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  260. pep. I think we fail at this at least
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  271. Guus I agree.
  272. pep. We can still give it a try, but we'll have to come up with an "innovative solution" in the next 4 days
  273. pep. Maybe it's our time to propose bitcoin, blockchain etc.
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  275. Guus I'm not in favor of embracing that just for the purpose of obtaining that grant.
  276. Guus I am also not available to work on this in the next 4 weeks.
  277. pep. Sorry I should work in making my sarcasm skills more obvious :)
  278. Daniel What project do you want to pitch? Just the xsf in general?
  279. Guus If we want to pursue this, we need to move fast - I will personally not be able to do that. To many obligations/responsibilities that I cannot postpone, this month.
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  282. Guus From what I read, I'm thinking that any proposal should have a covid-specific nature.
  283. pep. I don't know. It's not like XMPP wasn't already present during this covid situation, /me eyes Jitsi-Meet
  284. pep. So I'm also curious as to what to pitch yes
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  301. dwd We could make an offer of support though. XMPP is already used in a number of places within COVID-19 response, after all.
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  304. pep. As "the XSF" make an offer of support?
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  315. dwd Yes. I'm not sure how that would work in practise, though.
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  335. Guus dwd Your employer is in a specific position to would have had the need for such support, if anyone, I guess. No learnings from that?
  336. Guus specific XEP development? Implementation effort?
  337. Guus Would be nice if we could combat Covid19 with MIX and get funding for that. 😃
  338. Guus and have MIX sorted overnight 😃
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  341. dwd We haven't needed such support (much - I've asked for help from a handful of people for specific cases). I was more thinking in terms of complete newcomers to XMPP wanting to do things in that space.
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  457. Maranda MIX?
  458. Maranda huhuhu
  459. moparisthebest hey it's only been over 4.5 years I'm sure it'll be widely implemented any second now
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  475. Ge0rG quick poll: are CSI and Push notifications part of what needs to be addressed by message routing / IM-NG?
  476. Zash Yes
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  478. moparisthebest here I slapped together a thing so we can keep track of MIX progress, but I suck at CSS so patches welcome https://www.moparisthebest.com/mix/
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  481. Zash moparisthebest, I can't believe you didn't register "arewemixyet.?"
  482. Maranda Ge0rG, Uncertain
  483. moparisthebest that would be a good idea :)
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  486. Link Mauve moparisthebest, there are quite a bunch of implementations nowadays.
  487. pep. Incomplete impls for sure
  488. pep. Or not really adopted
  489. Link Mauve Or hidden behind flags.
  490. pep. that also
  491. Zash Or in someones WIP stash
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  496. winfried @guus @dwd the usecase for XMPP in coordinating humanitarian response and distance learning is of course very strong. A grant proposal could be aimed at easing up deploying of XMPP in the right way, a kind of creating a streamlined develop journey. I only have no time to write a grant proposal for that: am already bouncing from my second into my third proposal to write this week...
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  513. moparisthebest Link Mauve, I'm aware of a bunch of incompatible and incomplete implementations, don't think they count towards adoption though
  514. moparisthebest just seems like in the XSF if a standard is good, it's adopted rather quickly
  515. moparisthebest so if something can go 5 years without any adoption, you have to wonder, is it actually good
  516. Link Mauve moparisthebest, we just got a presentation of Kaidan’s MIX implementation, it works.
  517. Link Mauve I’m not aware of any incompatibility from the XEP.
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  520. Link Mauve If you find any such missing bit, I’m sure they’ll be happy to fix it. :)
  521. moparisthebest with what server? what version of the XEP
  522. pep. let's all use kaidan then so we can all communicate via MIX :)
  523. moparisthebest all have to use that specific server too right?
  524. Link Mauve pep., Conversations also exists.
  525. Link Mauve moparisthebest, Tigase AIUI.
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  528. moparisthebest ok so everyone running anything else can just throw it away, and set up Tigase, when is the flag day scheduled for?
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  530. Link Mauve moparisthebest, why would you want a flag day?
  531. moparisthebest oh, I don't, flag days seem destined to fail, but doesn't MIX by design require a flag day?
  532. Link Mauve I don’t believe so.
  533. moparisthebest because you need support in *your* server too, in addition to the remote one?
  534. pep. There's supposed to be a MUC compat layer
  535. moparisthebest where's that defined?
  536. pep. There supposed to be a MUC compat layer
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  538. Link Mauve moparisthebest, in XEP-0408.
  539. Link Mauve And PAM in XEP-0405.
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  541. Andrzej that layer is optional, not required for MUC core
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  543. pep. MIX core*
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  545. Andrzej right
  546. moparisthebest does anyone implement it?
  547. moparisthebest rather, does tigase, since apparantly there are no more server implementations
  548. Andrzej as an optional feature, but we've already added it
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  550. Link Mauve Andrzej, btw, could you give me a JID on some Tigase server with MIX support?
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  552. Andrzej sure
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  554. Link Mauve moparisthebest, Ejabberd and OpenFire both also have an implementation, I don’t know their status.
  555. Link Mauve I also started an implementation, which definitely isn’t ready yet.
  556. moparisthebest last I heard it was like "we implemented a super old version of the XEP, so we are now incompatible, also we never did any interop tests anyway"
  557. moparisthebest that could have changed since
  558. Guus (in case of Openfire, it did not)
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  576. flow How do I, as PEP subscriber, know that my publisher knows that I want to be notified about something?
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  581. Guus flow and me are having fun with PEP and CAPS. subscriber adds a new disco#info feature of something+notify, for which a presence update with a CAPS ver element is sent out. Before the server performs a service discovery query to decode the 'ver', the publisher publishing something. Server has not yet decoded the 'ver', and thus does not send a notification to the subscriber, that by now expects one.
  582. Guus subscriber is not guaranteed to get a disco#info query, as the 'ver' might already be known - unless you add something that's guaranteed unique, but that kind of defeats the purpose of 'ver'.
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  590. MattJ Doesn't PEP send the last item on subscribe?
  591. Guus subscribe is implicit, and already in place
  592. Zash Could you rephrase that as a Scansion script? :)
  593. Guus https://pastebin.com/hZ3WZkEK
  594. Guus on line 10, the intended recipient of the notification sends out a new presence update, with a new caps 'ver'. on line 17, the publisher publishes the item for which the intended recipient should receive a notification. on line 29, the intended recipient receives a request from the server for disco#info (which the server will use to decode the 'ver' hash). That does get responded to, and that response does include the mood+notify feature. However, before that response makes it back to the server (potentially even before the server made the disco#info request) the server already evaluated CAPS, and determined that the intended recipient did not (yet) have mood+notify. Thus, it does not get sent the notification.
  595. Zash What if you broadcast the last item on filtered -> unfiltered state transitions?
  596. Guus can PEP services disable filtering?
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  599. Zash Not that I know of.
  600. Zash I'm sure if you look through XEP-0060 you'll find an option for it.
  601. Guus Filtering seems hard-coded unconditionally in Openfir ecode.
  602. Zash Prosody until recently implemented PEP filtering by adding and removing subscriptions dynamically, but we changed it to generate the subscriber list from cached caps on publish instead. And when receiving a new presence it does a diff of what +notify are advertised and resends the last item for new ones.
  603. Zash Internal implementation detail, but the end result is that you get the last item of everything you want, when you start advertising interest in it.
  604. Zash I /think/ it should be relatively safe from the kind of race condition you're describing.
  605. Guus Yeah, that seems fine.
  606. flow so we add "send last item on new +notify" to the pep xep?
  607. flow I wonder what ejabberd does, since I usually run sinttest against ejabberd and never had the issue
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  610. Holger > Prosody until recently implemented PEP filtering by adding and removing subscriptions dynamically, but we changed it to generate the subscriber list from cached caps on publish instead. Funny my plan was to change ejabberd the other way round.
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  612. Guus Zash Prosody does send an advertisement of something potentially published a long time ago though, with that strategy, doesn't it?
  613. Guus (unsure if that's bad though)
  614. Guus Holger why?
  615. Zash Guus: Yes. That behavior goes way back.
  616. Andrzej Tigase behaves the same as prosody
  617. Andrzej if node has "send last published item on subscribe" I think that this is a correct behaviour
  618. Zash I'm not certain it's entirely correct according to the specs.
  619. Zash It is however useful, otherwise clients would have to manually fetch everything, wouldn't they?
  620. Guus https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#notify-last
  621. Holger Guus: I feared that question. I'm tired and won't get the details of the corner cases I ran into right, right now. Sorry. "Dynamic subscription" seems the more straightforward way to me as it just re-uses all logic for explicit subscriptions as good as possible.
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  623. Guus no worries
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  630. Zash Holger: As in treating a bag of +notify as a series of pubsub (un)subscribe requests. We changed it because it caused a lot of IO since we added persistence support.
  631. flow Holger, the important question is: do I get the last item on +notify presence with ejabberd now, and will I get the last item after you change it in ejabberd?
  632. Holger flow: I would expect you get it already but only God really knows how ejabberd's PEP behaves.
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  634. Holger flow: And yes certainly afterwards.
  635. Holger (Assuming the node is configured to do that.)
  636. Holger Zash: Yes my one difference to the handling of explicit subscriptions would be to throw +notify subscriptions into some RAM table.
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  638. Zash We filtered those out, but it still went on to save the now mostly empty node settings.
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  640. Zash Also, do you implement https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#entity-subscriptions or https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#owner-subscriptions on PEP?
  641. Zash Or, did it, like for us, carry over from a generic pubsub implementation?
  642. flow Guus, can I configure PEP nodes on Openfire so that they send the last published item on new +notify?
  643. Zash Is it possible to configure a PEP service to *not* do that?
  644. Zash Also s/is it/should it be/
  645. Guus flow: it's not configurable in Openfire, and, given that the test fails, Openfire doesn't appear to send the last published item on a presence update. I'm not even sure if the last item is sent when the subscriber comes online.
  646. Guus If it does, it does not wait for any CAPS ver value to be resolved. That in itself is not very promising.
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  653. flow Zash, dunno, Holger threw in a "assuming the nocde is configured to do that" ;) guess configurability is usually a nice thing to have, then question is the default
  654. flow Zash, dunno, Holger threw in a "assuming the node is configured to do that" ;) guess configurability is usually a nice thing to have, the question is the default
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