XSF Discussion - 2020-05-14

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  168. rion How to become an author of xep-0371? Seems like the original author doesn't care about the future of the xep.
  169. Alex Reminder for those who have not reapplied yet: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q2_2020
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  171. Holger https://xmpp.org/community/membership.html#application talks about "the first two weeks of January, April, July, and October", has this changed or are things just delayed (this time)?
  172. Alex looks like we need to update the webpage. dates have slipped many years ago
  173. Holger Ah :-)
  174. jonas’ rion, ask council :)
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  264. MattJ Sorry, forgot I can't make the meeting today
  265. pep. :)
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  268. pep. !
  269. pep. It's time
  270. pep. ralphm, Guus, Seve
  271. Guus o/
  272. Guus uhoh
  273. pep. hmm.
  274. pdurbin has joined
  275. pep. I don't really want to skip this one
  276. Seve Hey
  277. pep. woo
  278. pep. Let's start and hope it'll summon ralphm
  279. pep. 1. Agenda
  280. pep. - Add emus to commteam
  281. pep. I also have an item to add re ISOC foundation
  282. pep. Anything else?
  283. Guus what's the status on that adopt-a-char issue?
  284. Guus are we still blocked on figuring out how to vote?
  285. Guus if so, I'd like to see if we can get that oving.
  286. Guus *moving
  287. Seve I haven't heard any news on this, personally.
  288. pep. Last time I checked that was up to Flow. I think he meant to have a look at updating memberbot
  289. Seve (No items from me)
  290. Guus (to be added to agenda instead of disccussed right now)
  291. pep. right
  292. pep. 2. Add emus to commteam
  293. Seve He has been taking care of the newsletter, I think it would help the process. I'm +1
  294. pep. It was mentioned this week in their channel. emus has been helping for some time now with the newsletter
  295. pep. Seve, let's wait for the motion :p
  296. Guus Who's actually the team lead for comm?
  297. Guus nyco?
  298. pep. I'm not entirely sure, but the question was indirectly raised by JC
  299. Seve Guus, the commteam is a bit "afk" lately (I'm included there)
  300. pep. emus asking for people to publish things on social media
  301. Guus https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/comm-team.html
  302. Ge0rG Wasn't there an attempt to hire a social-media contractor?
  303. pep. And JC wondering if he should give him access (hence asking team membership)
  304. pep. Ge0rG, it's in the works yes
  305. pep. I'll update on that in commitments
  306. Guus In any case, I'm happy to have emus added.
  307. Guus is JC asking for him to be added, or is he asking himself? 🙂
  308. pep. emus is asking, from my PoV JC just prompted the discussion
  309. Guus motions that Edward 'emus' Maurer is to be added to the Commteam workteam.
  310. pep. +1
  311. Seve +1
  312. Guus +
  313. Guus shees
  314. Guus +1
  315. Guus sorry 🙂
  316. pep. Ok. 3 +1s ! emus congrats
  317. Guus Thanks for stepping up, emus !
  318. Seve emus, woo :)
  319. nyco ...
  320. pep. nyco, ?
  321. Guus Does commteam have access to the site?
  322. Guus as in, first task: add yourself to the website in the new role? 🙂
  323. Guus (for which we probably need iteam to add him in the correct github team?)
  324. Guus MattJ, in case you read back notifications, can you facilitate that?
  325. pep. As a note, I'd like us to figure out how to have teams handle that themselves. I'm curious why we need board here
  326. nyco Wat
  327. nyco Who soeaks where?
  328. pep. nyco, I'm curious if you have any comment, I'd like to hear them
  329. nyco Ping
  330. Guus pep. probably mandated in the bylaws. We can go through them out-of-band if you want.
  331. nyco hi
  332. Guus for now, let's move on 🙂
  333. pep. 3. ISOC Foundation grant
  334. nyco soryr to interrupt, sometimes I receive some notifications from I don't know where nor I don't know who, but no always
  335. nyco ok, sorry
  336. pep. https://www.isocfoundation.org/grant-programme/emergency-response-grant-programme-covid19/
  337. pep. The isoc foundation is offering a grant that non-profits can apply to in order to help with the current situation (covid)
  338. pep. The application period is until the 17th though, so pretty quick. I personally don't have many ideas but if anybody is interested in suggesting something I'd like board to consider it before the deadline
  339. Guus We briefly discussed this yesterday (day before yesterday maybe?). I do like attracting a grant like this, but a) it's short notice, and b) I'm unsure if we'd qualify for this particular one.
  340. Guus If someone has a good idea to move this forward, I'm all ears though.
  341. pep. I'm also unsure, but if anybody is willing to take up on the challenge I think we should hear it yeah
  342. Guus The ISOC offered grand discussion did trigger an idea with me. Should the XSF aim to have more of a team that chases down grants like these, and have proposal drafts available to answer? We might even want to consider hiring people to do this - basically have them pay for themselves?
  343. Guus grand/grant
  344. Guus Not sure exactly what this should look like, but it might be worth entertaining the thought.
  345. pep. hmm, why not. I'm open for discussion
  346. Guus let's ponder, and revisits in a next meeting?
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  349. pep. In the meantime I'll send an email regarding this specific grant
  350. pep. to members@
  351. Guus ok, tx
  352. pep. That does imply board is willing to give their approval before the 17th though, right
  353. Seve For this specific case though, I'm out of ideas. I hardly see how could we present something for that grant, but it will be great to hear any ideas from that mail
  354. Guus pep. I don't think that that's implied.
  355. Guus it's implied that board will at least see what comes out of it 🙂
  356. pep. I mean, discuss it, not approve it
  357. Guus right
  358. Seve Of course
  359. pep. Okay
  360. pep. 4. Adopt a character
  361. pep. As mentioned above I don't think there is much progress since last time, but that's not up to me
  362. Guus I'd just like to know where we are on this, and, if board needs to do something to move this along?
  363. Guus flow ?
  364. pep. I'm happy to leave this with flow for the time being
  365. Seve We can contact him out of this meeting and come back with an update. Then decide.
  366. Guus sure
  367. pep. Though an update would be nice
  368. pep. 5. Commitments
  369. pep. Regarding the marketing person, MattJ and I have had a chat with her, we've tried to state what we'd be expecting of a marketing/comms person and it seems she had a bit more clue compared to when she joined the meeting :)
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  371. Guus where does that leave the effort?
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  373. pep. She said she'd send us a sketch of what she thinks we can do, alongside with her rates
  374. pep. (is that the word?)
  375. Seve listens
  376. Guus that's _a_ word - unsure which one you're talking about 🙂
  377. pep. So I'm waiting on this at the moment
  378. pep. "rates", money things
  379. Guus yeah, fair enough. I usually use the singular 'rate' - but none of us are native speakers so we're forgiven 🙂
  380. Seve :D
  381. Guus Anyway, good news that we've engaged
  382. pep. That's it from me.
  383. Seve Looking forward for the sketch
  384. pep. 6. AOB?
  385. Seve None here
  386. Guus none here
  387. jonas’ none here
  388. pep. :)
  389. pep. Close then!
  390. pep. I'll send minutes later
  391. Guus Next week is ascension day
  392. Guus is that reason to postpone a meeting?
  393. Guus or shall we simply see who turns up?
  394. pep. Not for me
  395. Seve Wohoo, thank you pep.
  396. Guus we might make a family day out of it, unsure yet.
  397. Guus I'm happy to just see who turns up
  398. Seve Me too
  399. Guus (at the meeting, not the family day)
  400. pep. wofs
  401. Seve Oh..
  402. pep. :D
  403. pep. wfs*
  404. pep. wfm.
  405. pep. hard to type on a keyboard
  406. Guus ok +1w then
  407. pep. Thanks all
  408. Guus thanks!
  409. Seve 🙌
  410. flow re the adopt-a-character and members opinion poll: I am (more or less) blocked on https://github.com/andrewcmyers/civs/issues/33
  411. flow if CIVS would offer an option to generate N vote URLs then we could let every member draw exactly one URL from membersbot
  412. flow (of course this needs adjustment to membersbot, but this should be trivial)
  413. flow so I guess +1 the issue pls, and maybe we have an perl hacker amoungst us who wants to add that feature to CIVS
  414. Guus Ok. If, in the interest of time, we want to move without using CIVS, I'd be fine with that.
  415. Guus If we end up postponing this indefinitely only to be able to test-drive CIVS, that kind of defeats the purpose
  416. Guus Not that I'm in a hurry
  417. flow Guus, well if there is a tool that fits the(/my) requirements I would happily use it
  418. flow + I really like to use it as trial run for condorcet voting and allow members a first impression of it
  419. Guus I think your requirements are higher than the requirements 🙂
  420. Guus sure, I'm not opposing that
  421. Andrzej has left
  422. Guus Just want to make sure you don't feel obliged to chase down a dependency on our account.
  423. flow I kinda could go with a system that does no condorcet voting, but I could not find a sensible one
  424. emus Goodday guys 👋 Happy to join the team. Sorry, I missed the meeting 😫
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  426. pep. fwiw I'm not against testing Condorcet for this "non-essential" task
  427. pep. (I also don't care really much about the character personally, sorry but not sorry)
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  429. flow pep., no need to apologize, you are entitled to your own opinion
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  431. flow (in this case)
  432. flow ;)
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  447. pep. nyco, btw, still happy to hear your comments if you have any, here or in private
  448. nyco About ?
  449. pep. Your messages above happened while we were talking about emus
  450. pep. Since you're also commteam I thought it might have been related
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  462. MattJ emus, what's your Github username?
  463. MattJ (and congrats :) )
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  465. emus MattJ: Thanks, just check the recent drafts for the XMPP Newsletter, Im was the creator, echolon wait
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  468. emus yes its only Echolon
  469. MattJ Ok, added. I think you may receive an invite
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  475. emus MattJ: Yes. already accepted, thanks!
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  494. pep. Minutes sent
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  507. pep. https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2020/04/23/our-arguments-against-the-french-contact-tracing-app-stopcovid/
  508. pep. can the XSF also make a statement against solutionism or sth? (the idea that everything can be solved with technology)
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  512. pep. also related: https://edri.org/blog-ban-biometric-mass-surveillance/
  513. emus I would personally agree to work on a draft, but Iag time this weekend 😕
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  516. emus I would personally agree to work on a draft, but Iag time this weekend 😕
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  587. xnamed hello, I'm confused about connection error from xmpp.org with my server
  588. xnamed >>>> admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU 22:03:05 +19238 >>>> <iq xmlns="jabber:client" to="xmpp.org" type="get" id="sid_212"> <query xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info"/> </iq> >>>> admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU 22:03:05 +4 >>>> <iq xmlns="jabber:client" to="xmpp.org" type="get" id="sid_213"> <query xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#items"/> </iq> <<<< admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU 22:03:05 +566 <<<< <iq xmlns="jabber:client" from="xmpp.org" xml:lang="en" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" to="admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU" type="error" id="sid_212"> <query xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info"/> <error xmlns="jabber:client" type="wait" code="504"> <remote-server-timeout xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas"/> <text xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" xml:lang="en" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace">Connection failed: connection refused</text> </error> </iq> <<<< admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU 22:03:05 +15 <<<< <iq xmlns="jabber:client" from="xmpp.org" xml:lang="en" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" to="admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU" type="error" id="sid_213"> <query xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#items"/> <error xmlns="jabber:client" type="wait" code="504"> <remote-server-timeout xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas"/> <text xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" xml:lang="en" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace">Connection failed: connection refused</text> </error> </iq>
  589. debacle has joined
  590. Zash xnamed, what's confusing about it?
  591. xnamed Zash, what's the problem
  592. Zash The local server could not connect to xmpp.org.
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  595. Zash From "connection refused" I would guess that it either failed to look up the SRV records and tried to connect to the wrong port, or that there's a local firewall that blocks connections to the port xmpp.org uses.
  596. xnamed I think the second possibility
  597. xnamed thank you Zash
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  628. flow I always think it would be nice if the textual error message would include the invovled tcp 4-tuple
  629. flow I always think it would be nice if the textual error message would include the involved tcp 4-tuple
  630. Zash Hmm
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  632. Ge0rG now is a good time to point out that the text element of stream errors is not supposed to be user-understandable
  633. Zash I'm not sure we should shove too many details at users, but it can be useful.
  634. flow my counter argument is always that users who do not understand it could at least give the text to their admin
  635. Zash When will I find the time and energy to write that Extended S2S Error Info XEP?
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  637. flow because there is a reason why some UIs just tell the user that "something bad happened, try again later"
  638. Ge0rG The <error/> element: MAY contain a <text/> child element containing XML character data that describes the error in more detail
  639. flow so you usually want to display this to the user, with an extra button that leads to a detailed error report
  640. flow that he/she is not expected ot understand
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  643. Zash While we have that single <text> element, we could at least try to have the beginning of it easily understandable, and then go into more details.
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  645. flow I would totally support adding a "dump-user-text" element
  646. flow but the existing <text/> should probably contain as much as details as possible
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  649. flow err dumb-user-text
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  653. Ge0rG for dumb-user-text all you need is a set of strings for all well-known conditions
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  655. Zash If they're well-known conditions, wouldn't conditions be better?
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  658. Zash as in like the tag names we have, but moar!
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  661. Zash <certificate-expired/>, <connection-refused because="firewall"/>...
  662. flow can't catch them all
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  664. flow but yes, why not, we certainly will end up with a textual escape hatch
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  670. Zash we already have that
  671. flow great, I like hatches. but not the one from lost
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  674. xnamed I remember had certificate expired error long ago but this time it's something else
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  676. xnamed I think good idea to add details
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  678. pep. > flow> my counter argument is always that users who do not understand it could at least give the text to their admin I agree. For the 5% that do send things to their admin, it's good when they have more than "it doesn't work"
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  682. Link Mauve The admin can usually correlate the timestamp with a particular s2s attempt in their debug logs.
  683. DebXWoody has left
  684. Link Mauve But +1 for more understandable errors.
  685. pep. Maybe the admin is not that admin
  686. Link Mauve It’s a good thing for users who are their own admin too. :)
  687. Ge0rG Link Mauve: "yesterday I couldn't talk to Jack"
  688. Ge0rG And then you have 2GB of server logs and they have three Jacks on the roster
  689. xnamed What if the admin like me doesn't have access to the debug logs?
  690. pep. Compared to yesterday I got a weird message when talking to Jack: "something something error 1235"
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  692. Zash I'm still kinda proud of the new certificate related s2s errors in Prosody (trunk)
  693. Link Mauve xnamed, uh, then you can’t debug.
  694. Ge0rG I sometimes get screenshots from users, even for errors that were toast messages.
  695. Ge0rG They manage to make a shot of their mobile screen in the 1 or 2 seconds that the toast is visible
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  697. Ge0rG Zash: a pity that I can't see them.
  698. Zash xnamed, with my iteam hat on, I see no trace of any connection to xmpp.org from that server.
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  700. Zash Ge0rG, not?
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  702. Ge0rG Zash: I'm not checking certificates
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  704. Ge0rG But maybe one day I could run through all domains from my users' rosters and s2s ping them to collect certificate validity data and to be able to decide whether to enforce certificates after that.
  705. Zash I hope we can improve DNS and TCP related errors too
  706. Zash Currently you get e.g. > Server-to-server connection failed: unable to resolve service or > Server-to-server connection failed: connection refused
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  708. Ge0rG And some clients are only wide enough to show "Server-to-server connection fa..."
  709. Zash Maybe someone could improve that as well
  710. Zash Compressed jargon doesn't feel like the solution, especially not if we want more details in there.
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