XSF Discussion - 2020-05-14

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  168. rion

    How to become an author of xep-0371? Seems like the original author doesn't care about the future of the xep.

  169. Alex

    Reminder for those who have not reapplied yet: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q2_2020

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  171. Holger

    https://xmpp.org/community/membership.html#application talks about "the first two weeks of January, April, July, and October", has this changed or are things just delayed (this time)?

  172. Alex

    looks like we need to update the webpage. dates have slipped many years ago

  173. Holger

    Ah :-)

  174. jonasโ€™

    rion, ask council :)

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  264. MattJ

    Sorry, forgot I can't make the meeting today

  265. pep.


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  268. pep.


  269. pep.

    It's time

  270. pep.

    ralphm, Guus, Seve

  271. Guus


  272. Guus


  273. pep.


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  275. pep.

    I don't really want to skip this one

  276. Seve


  277. pep.


  278. pep.

    Let's start and hope it'll summon ralphm

  279. pep.

    1. Agenda

  280. pep.

    - Add emus to commteam

  281. pep.

    I also have an item to add re ISOC foundation

  282. pep.

    Anything else?

  283. Guus

    what's the status on that adopt-a-char issue?

  284. Guus

    are we still blocked on figuring out how to vote?

  285. Guus

    if so, I'd like to see if we can get that oving.

  286. Guus


  287. Seve

    I haven't heard any news on this, personally.

  288. pep.

    Last time I checked that was up to Flow. I think he meant to have a look at updating memberbot

  289. Seve

    (No items from me)

  290. Guus

    (to be added to agenda instead of disccussed right now)

  291. pep.


  292. pep.

    2. Add emus to commteam

  293. Seve

    He has been taking care of the newsletter, I think it would help the process. I'm +1

  294. pep.

    It was mentioned this week in their channel. emus has been helping for some time now with the newsletter

  295. pep.

    Seve, let's wait for the motion :p

  296. Guus

    Who's actually the team lead for comm?

  297. Guus


  298. pep.

    I'm not entirely sure, but the question was indirectly raised by JC

  299. Seve

    Guus, the commteam is a bit "afk" lately (I'm included there)

  300. pep.

    emus asking for people to publish things on social media

  301. Guus


  302. Ge0rG

    Wasn't there an attempt to hire a social-media contractor?

  303. pep.

    And JC wondering if he should give him access (hence asking team membership)

  304. pep.

    Ge0rG, it's in the works yes

  305. pep.

    I'll update on that in commitments

  306. Guus

    In any case, I'm happy to have emus added.

  307. Guus

    is JC asking for him to be added, or is he asking himself? ๐Ÿ™‚

  308. pep.

    emus is asking, from my PoV JC just prompted the discussion

  309. Guus motions that Edward 'emus' Maurer is to be added to the Commteam workteam.

  310. pep.


  311. Seve


  312. Guus


  313. Guus


  314. Guus


  315. Guus

    sorry ๐Ÿ™‚

  316. pep.

    Ok. 3 +1s ! emus congrats

  317. Guus

    Thanks for stepping up, emus !

  318. Seve

    emus, woo :)

  319. nyco


  320. pep.

    nyco, ?

  321. Guus

    Does commteam have access to the site?

  322. Guus

    as in, first task: add yourself to the website in the new role? ๐Ÿ™‚

  323. Guus

    (for which we probably need iteam to add him in the correct github team?)

  324. Guus

    MattJ, in case you read back notifications, can you facilitate that?

  325. pep.

    As a note, I'd like us to figure out how to have teams handle that themselves. I'm curious why we need board here

  326. nyco


  327. nyco

    Who soeaks where?

  328. pep.

    nyco, I'm curious if you have any comment, I'd like to hear them

  329. nyco


  330. Guus

    pep. probably mandated in the bylaws. We can go through them out-of-band if you want.

  331. nyco


  332. Guus

    for now, let's move on ๐Ÿ™‚

  333. pep.

    3. ISOC Foundation grant

  334. nyco

    soryr to interrupt, sometimes I receive some notifications from I don't know where nor I don't know who, but no always

  335. nyco

    ok, sorry

  336. pep.


  337. pep.

    The isoc foundation is offering a grant that non-profits can apply to in order to help with the current situation (covid)

  338. pep.

    The application period is until the 17th though, so pretty quick. I personally don't have many ideas but if anybody is interested in suggesting something I'd like board to consider it before the deadline

  339. Guus

    We briefly discussed this yesterday (day before yesterday maybe?). I do like attracting a grant like this, but a) it's short notice, and b) I'm unsure if we'd qualify for this particular one.

  340. Guus

    If someone has a good idea to move this forward, I'm all ears though.

  341. pep.

    I'm also unsure, but if anybody is willing to take up on the challenge I think we should hear it yeah

  342. Guus

    The ISOC offered grand discussion did trigger an idea with me. Should the XSF aim to have more of a team that chases down grants like these, and have proposal drafts available to answer? We might even want to consider hiring people to do this - basically have them pay for themselves?

  343. Guus


  344. Guus

    Not sure exactly what this should look like, but it might be worth entertaining the thought.

  345. pep.

    hmm, why not. I'm open for discussion

  346. Guus

    let's ponder, and revisits in a next meeting?

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  349. pep.

    In the meantime I'll send an email regarding this specific grant

  350. pep.

    to members@

  351. Guus

    ok, tx

  352. pep.

    That does imply board is willing to give their approval before the 17th though, right

  353. Seve

    For this specific case though, I'm out of ideas. I hardly see how could we present something for that grant, but it will be great to hear any ideas from that mail

  354. Guus

    pep. I don't think that that's implied.

  355. Guus

    it's implied that board will at least see what comes out of it ๐Ÿ™‚

  356. pep.

    I mean, discuss it, not approve it

  357. Guus


  358. Seve

    Of course

  359. pep.


  360. pep.

    4. Adopt a character

  361. pep.

    As mentioned above I don't think there is much progress since last time, but that's not up to me

  362. Guus

    I'd just like to know where we are on this, and, if board needs to do something to move this along?

  363. Guus

    flow ?

  364. pep.

    I'm happy to leave this with flow for the time being

  365. Seve

    We can contact him out of this meeting and come back with an update. Then decide.

  366. Guus


  367. pep.

    Though an update would be nice

  368. pep.

    5. Commitments

  369. pep.

    Regarding the marketing person, MattJ and I have had a chat with her, we've tried to state what we'd be expecting of a marketing/comms person and it seems she had a bit more clue compared to when she joined the meeting :)

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  371. Guus

    where does that leave the effort?

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  373. pep.

    She said she'd send us a sketch of what she thinks we can do, alongside with her rates

  374. pep.

    (is that the word?)

  375. Seve listens

  376. Guus

    that's _a_ word - unsure which one you're talking about ๐Ÿ™‚

  377. pep.

    So I'm waiting on this at the moment

  378. pep.

    "rates", money things

  379. Guus

    yeah, fair enough. I usually use the singular 'rate' - but none of us are native speakers so we're forgiven ๐Ÿ™‚

  380. Seve


  381. Guus

    Anyway, good news that we've engaged

  382. pep.

    That's it from me.

  383. Seve

    Looking forward for the sketch

  384. pep.

    6. AOB?

  385. Seve

    None here

  386. Guus

    none here

  387. jonasโ€™

    none here

  388. pep.


  389. pep.

    Close then!

  390. pep.

    I'll send minutes later

  391. Guus

    Next week is ascension day

  392. Guus

    is that reason to postpone a meeting?

  393. Guus

    or shall we simply see who turns up?

  394. pep.

    Not for me

  395. Seve

    Wohoo, thank you pep.

  396. Guus

    we might make a family day out of it, unsure yet.

  397. Guus

    I'm happy to just see who turns up

  398. Seve

    Me too

  399. Guus

    (at the meeting, not the family day)

  400. pep.


  401. Seve


  402. pep.


  403. pep.


  404. pep.


  405. pep.

    hard to type on a keyboard

  406. Guus

    ok +1w then

  407. pep.

    Thanks all

  408. Guus


  409. Seve


  410. flow

    re the adopt-a-character and members opinion poll: I am (more or less) blocked on https://github.com/andrewcmyers/civs/issues/33

  411. flow

    if CIVS would offer an option to generate N vote URLs then we could let every member draw exactly one URL from membersbot

  412. flow

    (of course this needs adjustment to membersbot, but this should be trivial)

  413. flow

    so I guess +1 the issue pls, and maybe we have an perl hacker amoungst us who wants to add that feature to CIVS

  414. Guus

    Ok. If, in the interest of time, we want to move without using CIVS, I'd be fine with that.

  415. Guus

    If we end up postponing this indefinitely only to be able to test-drive CIVS, that kind of defeats the purpose

  416. Guus

    Not that I'm in a hurry

  417. flow

    Guus, well if there is a tool that fits the(/my) requirements I would happily use it

  418. flow

    + I really like to use it as trial run for condorcet voting and allow members a first impression of it

  419. Guus

    I think your requirements are higher than the requirements ๐Ÿ™‚

  420. Guus

    sure, I'm not opposing that

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  422. Guus

    Just want to make sure you don't feel obliged to chase down a dependency on our account.

  423. flow

    I kinda could go with a system that does no condorcet voting, but I could not find a sensible one

  424. emus

    Goodday guys ๐Ÿ‘‹ Happy to join the team. Sorry, I missed the meeting ๐Ÿ˜ซ

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  426. pep.

    fwiw I'm not against testing Condorcet for this "non-essential" task

  427. pep.

    (I also don't care really much about the character personally, sorry but not sorry)

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  429. flow

    pep., no need to apologize, you are entitled to your own opinion

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  431. flow

    (in this case)

  432. flow


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  447. pep.

    nyco, btw, still happy to hear your comments if you have any, here or in private

  448. nyco

    About ?

  449. pep.

    Your messages above happened while we were talking about emus

  450. pep.

    Since you're also commteam I thought it might have been related

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  462. MattJ

    emus, what's your Github username?

  463. MattJ

    (and congrats :) )

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  465. emus

    MattJ: Thanks, just check the recent drafts for the XMPP Newsletter, Im was the creator, echolon wait

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  468. emus

    yes its only Echolon

  469. MattJ

    Ok, added. I think you may receive an invite

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  475. emus

    MattJ: Yes. already accepted, thanks!

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  494. pep.

    Minutes sent

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  507. pep.


  508. pep.

    can the XSF also make a statement against solutionism or sth? (the idea that everything can be solved with technology)

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  512. pep.

    also related: https://edri.org/blog-ban-biometric-mass-surveillance/

  513. emus

    I would personally agree to work on a draft, but Iag time this weekend ๐Ÿ˜•

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  516. emus

    I would personally agree to work on a draft, but Iag time this weekend ๐Ÿ˜•

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  587. xnamed

    hello, I'm confused about connection error from xmpp.org with my server

  588. xnamed

    >>>> admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU 22:03:05 +19238 >>>> <iq xmlns="jabber:client" to="xmpp.org" type="get" id="sid_212"> <query xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info"/> </iq> >>>> admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU 22:03:05 +4 >>>> <iq xmlns="jabber:client" to="xmpp.org" type="get" id="sid_213"> <query xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#items"/> </iq> <<<< admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU 22:03:05 +566 <<<< <iq xmlns="jabber:client" from="xmpp.org" xml:lang="en" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" to="admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU" type="error" id="sid_212"> <query xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info"/> <error xmlns="jabber:client" type="wait" code="504"> <remote-server-timeout xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas"/> <text xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" xml:lang="en" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace">Connection failed: connection refused</text> </error> </iq> <<<< admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU 22:03:05 +15 <<<< <iq xmlns="jabber:client" from="xmpp.org" xml:lang="en" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" to="admin@jabber.eu.org/eyeCU" type="error" id="sid_213"> <query xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#items"/> <error xmlns="jabber:client" type="wait" code="504"> <remote-server-timeout xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas"/> <text xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" xml:lang="en" xmlns:xml="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace">Connection failed: connection refused</text> </error> </iq>

  589. debacle has joined

  590. Zash

    xnamed, what's confusing about it?

  591. xnamed

    Zash, what's the problem

  592. Zash

    The local server could not connect to xmpp.org.

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  595. Zash

    From "connection refused" I would guess that it either failed to look up the SRV records and tried to connect to the wrong port, or that there's a local firewall that blocks connections to the port xmpp.org uses.

  596. xnamed

    I think the second possibility

  597. xnamed

    thank you Zash

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  628. flow

    I always think it would be nice if the textual error message would include the invovled tcp 4-tuple

  629. flow

    I always think it would be nice if the textual error message would include the involved tcp 4-tuple

  630. Zash


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  632. Ge0rG

    now is a good time to point out that the text element of stream errors is not supposed to be user-understandable

  633. Zash

    I'm not sure we should shove too many details at users, but it can be useful.

  634. flow

    my counter argument is always that users who do not understand it could at least give the text to their admin

  635. Zash

    When will I find the time and energy to write that Extended S2S Error Info XEP?

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  637. flow

    because there is a reason why some UIs just tell the user that "something bad happened, try again later"

  638. Ge0rG

    The <error/> element: MAY contain a <text/> child element containing XML character data that describes the error in more detail

  639. flow

    so you usually want to display this to the user, with an extra button that leads to a detailed error report

  640. flow

    that he/she is not expected ot understand

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  643. Zash

    While we have that single <text> element, we could at least try to have the beginning of it easily understandable, and then go into more details.

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  645. flow

    I would totally support adding a "dump-user-text" element

  646. flow

    but the existing <text/> should probably contain as much as details as possible

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  649. flow

    err dumb-user-text

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  653. Ge0rG

    for dumb-user-text all you need is a set of strings for all well-known conditions

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  655. Zash

    If they're well-known conditions, wouldn't conditions be better?

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  658. Zash

    as in like the tag names we have, but moar!

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  661. Zash

    <certificate-expired/>, <connection-refused because="firewall"/>...

  662. flow

    can't catch them all

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  664. flow

    but yes, why not, we certainly will end up with a textual escape hatch

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  670. Zash

    we already have that

  671. flow

    great, I like hatches. but not the one from lost

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  674. xnamed

    I remember had certificate expired error long ago but this time it's something else

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  676. xnamed

    I think good idea to add details

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  678. pep.

    > flow> my counter argument is always that users who do not understand it could at least give the text to their admin I agree. For the 5% that do send things to their admin, it's good when they have more than "it doesn't work"

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  682. Link Mauve

    The admin can usually correlate the timestamp with a particular s2s attempt in their debug logs.

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  684. Link Mauve

    But +1 for more understandable errors.

  685. pep.

    Maybe the admin is not that admin

  686. Link Mauve

    Itโ€™s a good thing for users who are their own admin too. :)

  687. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: "yesterday I couldn't talk to Jack"

  688. Ge0rG

    And then you have 2GB of server logs and they have three Jacks on the roster

  689. xnamed

    What if the admin like me doesn't have access to the debug logs?

  690. pep.

    Compared to yesterday I got a weird message when talking to Jack: "something something error 1235"

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  692. Zash

    I'm still kinda proud of the new certificate related s2s errors in Prosody (trunk)

  693. Link Mauve

    xnamed, uh, then you canโ€™t debug.

  694. Ge0rG

    I sometimes get screenshots from users, even for errors that were toast messages.

  695. Ge0rG

    They manage to make a shot of their mobile screen in the 1 or 2 seconds that the toast is visible

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  697. Ge0rG

    Zash: a pity that I can't see them.

  698. Zash

    xnamed, with my iteam hat on, I see no trace of any connection to xmpp.org from that server.

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  700. Zash

    Ge0rG, not?

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  702. Ge0rG

    Zash: I'm not checking certificates

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  704. Ge0rG

    But maybe one day I could run through all domains from my users' rosters and s2s ping them to collect certificate validity data and to be able to decide whether to enforce certificates after that.

  705. Zash

    I hope we can improve DNS and TCP related errors too

  706. Zash

    Currently you get e.g. > Server-to-server connection failed: unable to resolve service or > Server-to-server connection failed: connection refused

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  708. Ge0rG

    And some clients are only wide enough to show "Server-to-server connection fa..."

  709. Zash

    Maybe someone could improve that as well

  710. Zash

    Compressed jargon doesn't feel like the solution, especially not if we want more details in there.

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