XSF Discussion - 2020-05-20

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  3. pep. eevvoor, done
  4. eevvoor pep. :)
  5. Wojtek oh... here we go again :DD @eevvoor we are not specifically against (where did you get that from) but we simply won't drop just like that because there are other factors at play; *most likely* we will address it (0372?) but it will take some time. Besides, 0372 has it's own issue ("A begin attribute is used to mark the index in the body of the referring message of the first character (TODO: define character appropriately)", erm... :-) ) so it will take some time. and in case of other clients it boils down to having issue with detecting `@` + nick.
  6. pep. Wojtek, see https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0426.html
  7. pep. 372 hasn't been updated, but that's probably the safest bet
  8. eevvoor Wojtek, ah you are here too, that is convenient.
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  10. Wojtek it's convenient but then we have discussion here and on github and we are rehashing this issue again ;-)
  11. eevvoor > and in case of other clients it boils down to having issue with detecting `@` + nick why, we would not have an @ then
  12. pep. I'd say you should lock the issue :x
  13. eevvoor pep. lock down for corona issues? :D
  14. pep. :)
  15. eevvoor anyhow, I do not mind, I am not a beagle IM user.
  16. eevvoor just my two cents ...
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  18. pep. > and in case of other clients it boils down to having issue with detecting `@` + nick. And enforcing "@" on all the ecosystem, introducing more places where body needs to be parsed, etc. etc. :)
  19. Wojtek @pep. I have pinned it :-)
  20. pep. cool
  21. Wojtek yeah, this one and http-upload got a lot of attention and complaining so it makes sense to pin them.
  22. eevvoor never heard of pinnin, what does this github language word mean
  23. pep. go to https://github.com/tigase/beagle-im/issues and observe
  24. Wojtek the issue is displayed at thet op of the list of issues in repository
  25. eevvoor never heard of pinning, what does this github language word mean?
  26. Wojtek we are not enforcing it, but other clients could check for mentions not only on `\w<nick>\w` tbh, I'm not sure that incidental mentions notifications are all that great
  27. eevvoor nice
  28. eevvoor Wojtek, yeah we discussed that when ingoj opened the issue.
  29. eevvoor Some of us "use" the nick mentioning as filtering by changing nick name.
  30. pep. Wojtek, I don't disagree with the fact that using regex in body to match nicknames is meh. That's mostly historical though.. (damn IRC)
  31. pep. I don't think it's an excuse to introduce even more sigils
  32. eevvoor But that is more hacking than noob friendly usablility, of course ...
  33. pep. I think the whole debate around "using @ or not using @" is pointless
  34. eevvoor Agreed.
  35. pep. Please don't pollute the wire any more :x
  36. Wojtek let me repeat myself: "Current situation is is not ideal" :-)
  37. pep. Wojtek, sure
  38. Wojtek +1
  39. eevvoor Separating content from layout is important. @ is not useful here.
  40. pep. eevvoor, "@" is irrelevant, not "not useful" :P
  41. Wojtek @pep. btw. we do support displaying markdown messages - oh the horror ;-)
  42. eevvoor yes :)
  43. pep. Wojtek, you make me sad
  44. eevvoor XD
  45. pep. markdown and not styling, right?
  46. eevvoor gfm markdown or markdown+raw XD
  47. pep. (it's the same horror to me anyway, assuming you've done it the same way)
  48. Wojtek we don't allow formatting - we just try to display the intent when received because that seems to make sense
  49. pep. the intent?
  50. eevvoor the semantics :D
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  52. Wojtek Sometiems you want to **stress** something
  53. eevvoor @ is also just a layout semantics
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  55. pep. or @@stress@@ something
  56. Wojtek I've used `**` and `__` in the usenet days, way before markdown was a thing :-)
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  58. pep. I'm too young for usenet :x On IRC I used * and _ sometimes (not doubled), but then again not just to emphasize, for other uses too
  59. pep. I've also used "/"
  60. pep. But IRC is what it is, I don't want to reintroduce these horrors in XMPP
  61. moparisthebest It's not just IRC though, it's all text communication back to the beginning of the internet, also before my time
  62. eevvoor yes mail too
  63. eevvoor btw in mails you also mention people with @ ;)
  64. pep. Do you?
  65. eevvoor lots of people do
  66. pep. wut, why..
  67. pep. I don't know of any client that interprets that
  68. pep. (but I don't know of many clients)
  69. eevvoor no of course not
  70. eevvoor it is the humans who interpret that.
  71. eevvoor you do not have nicks in mails, it is just for structuring the paragraphs: this is imrportant for @person1, person2 and thtat for @personx
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  73. pep. :/
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  76. pep. Wojtek, your example in the issue is not fair as you only cite platforms that do not federate and don't have various client implementations
  77. Wojtek erm, mastodon is 3rd ;-)
  78. pep. ah mastodon
  79. pep. Well it's the only one
  80. Wojtek eevvoor - you see, I forgot email from my list, and this is just 'hoomans doing hooman things'... it's not for interpretation, just an indication. And IMHO it's better than corporate quotations with using colours and other formatting, which breaks completely when you are forcing plain-text view...
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  82. pep. fwiw, re colors and weird formatting, I do blame email clients..
  83. pep. I also blame email for sure and the mess they've made with html
  84. Wojtek what are other global and popular federated networks? you could say e-mail, but many argue that e-mail is stuck in the prehistoric times and it's impossible to move it forward or introduce anything there because... it's federated
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  86. pep. popular I don't know, but there's also Matrix. But they also have only one implementation anyway.. (:P)
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  88. Wojtek they do seem to use `@` as well: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/master/specification/modules/mentions.rst ;-) (this seems a bit awful though...)
  89. pep. fwiw matrix also seems to have a separate representation for its html thing
  90. pep. Wojtek, right, so it's html, not in the text :x
  91. pep. I was curious how they were doing that
  92. Wojtek well, it's still in text... formatted text
  93. Wojtek seems like multi-part e-mail though
  94. Wojtek I wonter if they allow sending payloads without `body`
  95. pep. "body": "Hello Alice!"
  96. pep. where in the text?
  97. pep. I don't know. I don't think xhtml-im did
  98. pep. fallback body blah blah
  99. pep. Anyway I think the discussion on "@" is irrelevant. Some platforms may very well use it and some XMPP clients will reuse it for sure and that's fine. The question is how :p
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  172. !XSF_Martin > wut, why.. > I don't know of any client that interprets that FYI Of you write an @ in MS Office Mail/Outlook whatever it is called that days you can cycle through the the people on the current distributor. So they use it like Tigase/Beagle it seems.
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  283. MattJ https://signal.org/blog/signal-pins/
  284. MattJ Summary: they intend to introduce identities that are not phone numbers (lack of which is one of the main complaints against Signal by the very market segment they target)
  285. MattJ So they need to store a roster, but they don't want it on the server (unencrypted)
  286. mathieui Aren’t they only hinting it for now?
  287. MattJ If they encrypt it on the device before uploading, the user would lose access to it if they lost their device with the encryption key
  288. MattJ Publicly hinting, and putting this effort in? It's clearly one of their priorities
  289. MattJ Summary of their solution: SGX
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  292. Zash Again?
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  294. MattJ They are basically storing a database of encryption keys in RAM
  295. MattJ So they had to invent Raft-in-SGX so they could replicate across servers and data centres (otherwise all keys would be lost on server failure)
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  323. Neustradamus_ Little question of the day: In MUC Rooms, it is possible to be connected with several XMPP client with the same JID. Example: one with Gajim and one with Conversations So we can see all connected XMPP clients by user like in roster?
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  327. Kev No.
  328. Kev Shared nicks in MUCs are hidden, you don't know what's behind them (unlike direct presence).
  329. MattJ Maybe :)
  330. MattJ Prosody includes an <item> for each joined resource
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  332. MattJ Not in the spec though
  333. Kev Sure, you can expose it.
  334. Ge0rG Somebody could update 0045
  335. MattJ They did, and it got published as 38 new XEPs
  336. Neustradamus_ Thanks for your replies :)
  337. Kev MattJ: Well, it got published as 1 new XEP and people demanded it be split up...
  338. Neustradamus_ I would like a clear solution, if it is possible to update it, it will be perfect!
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  342. MattJ Neustradamus_: it seems to me that there are lots of things you would like. And you expect other people to do them for you immediately and for free
  343. Ge0rG MattJ: by "update" I didn't mean "reinvent from basic principles"
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  345. Neustradamus_ No, just specifiy in the XEP... And Prosody already does...
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  347. MattJ Ge0rG: XEP-0060 is a basic principle? :)
  348. MattJ FWIW I actually agree with the split and the pubsub foundations
  349. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, didn't you read the longish post by Stephen Wolfram where he derives the working principles of the universe from XEP-0060?
  350. Neustradamus_ This problem is not new, how many years we can join a MUC Room in several XMPP clients with the same JID?
  351. Ge0rG Neustradamus_: there is an article on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Multi-Session_Nicks that tracks implementation status
  352. Ge0rG feel free to update it with facts.
  353. queen_tilfaar Quick question: how many of you will instantly switch to signal if they get rid of phone numbers for login?
  354. Kev 0?
  355. MattJ Not I, because I don't believe in centralization and having a communication network relying on a single commercial entity
  356. queen_tilfaar Lol zero?
  357. MattJ And probably many other people who use/develop XMPP feel similarly
  358. queen_tilfaar > Not I, because I don't believe in centralization and having a communication network relying on a single commercial entity Hmm that's understandable
  359. MattJ Out of all XMPP users, I'm sure some may switch, sure... 0 might be a stretch. But in this channel right now? 0 may well be accurate
  360. MattJ I don't hate Signal, it's a reasonable choice for some people who prefer different trade-offs
  361. queen_tilfaar Ikr. The things is its borderline impossible to make my friends and family members switch to open source decentralized complicated solutions urgh
  362. MattJ and I appreciate what they are trying to do
  363. MattJ But trying to run a centralized service that maintains the privacy of users while providing a good UI/UX is quite hard
  364. queen_tilfaar Agreed
  365. MattJ They are achieving it using SGX, a magic technology invented for DRM
  366. MattJ and multiple flaws have been found in SGX
  367. MattJ And it is itself a proprietary technology, and the principle of DRM has been shown to be broken multiple times
  368. MattJ It's a really neat hack, and they are inventing fun new stuff this way
  369. MattJ But I'm not going to choose it over decentralized alternatives that are based on simpler principles
  370. queen_tilfaar Hmm this made me rethink everything
  371. MattJ I migrated my family (9 members of) to a new XMPP server the other day, and all it took was an email and one support call
  372. queen_tilfaar Haha that's impressive tbh. Meanwhile my brother won't even switch to discord
  373. Ge0rG MattJ: you should also say that your new server involved a custom onboarding scheme that's not published as an XEP ;)
  374. MattJ It's published openly, and it's not my fault I'm ahead of the curve and the XEP improvements got rejected :)
  375. Ge0rG MattJ: technically, it's not XMPP :P
  376. Daniel It's still xmpp
  377. MattJ I'm not sure how to reach that conclusion
  378. MattJ Ge0rG, in any case, your client implements it - so when will you be removing "XMPP" from the description? :)
  379. MattJ (and replacing it with "Modern XMPP" of course)
  380. Ge0rG MattJ: I thought about "Extended XMPP" or "EX-MPP"
  381. Zash XXMPP?
  382. Ge0rG XXX-MMP.
  383. MattJ We all agreed extensions are bad, right? Just MPP?
  384. Ge0rG MattJ: and messaging and presence are only used for spam anyway. Let's reduce to P!
  385. Ge0rG it's also featuring a nice pronunciation
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  402. Zash Is there a XEP for reporting spam/abuse in MUCs?
  403. Zash Other than just manually calling for mods
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  409. pep. Zash, XEP-0224 Attention?
  410. Zash Heh
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  480. xnamed^ https://xmpp.jix.im/upload/366a70b8f42372013265023a64adf7f8efca6519/iw7tLHdSlqDMEk3g7fQ9rnZVjxAz70sfEEWFZ7qx/FB_IMG_1589990703362.jpg
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  486. Ge0rG jix.im, is that some kind of yax.im impersonation? :D
  487. Zash inb4 yax.in
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  490. xnamed^ Ge0rG: no it has nothing to do with yax.im
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  493. edhelas Matrix is just a layer on top of XMPP, but you don't know yet
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  495. Ge0rG this is deep.
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  497. edhelas 2deep4u
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  499. Ge0rG 2girl1cup?
  500. Zash im14andthisisdeep?
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  505. dwd I did wonder, idly, whether one could build a connectionless HTTP binding of XMPP, and if so, how much like Matrix it would look.
  506. dwd By which I mean, if you pretend that an HTTP-based client is essentially always online, and connections have an enormous timeout, and hand-wave-hand-wave over presence, you'd have an initial client setup phase which looks like Oauth except SASL, and then... what?
  507. Daniel matrix is not a real time messaging protocol but a distributed graph database...
  508. Zash mod_rest ?
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  513. xnamed^ What's that agenda link in the subject? Access Denied
  514. pep. That should be public
  515. pep. I can see it here, unauthenticated
  516. pep. It's the agenda for board meetings
  517. Daniel Works here too
  518. xnamed^ Then my country blocked
  519. pep. can you access trello.com ?
  520. xnamed^ No, same
  521. pep. :/
  522. pep. Great
  523. pep. Can I ask which country? Or in private if you prefer
  524. pep. Also are you sure that's the only reason
  525. pep. Also are you sure that's the only possible reason
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  531. xnamed^ Ok, sent in private
  532. pep. Trello's support things seem useless
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  535. pep. If you can provide more info that allow us to ensure it's indeed your IP/country that's being blocked, I'll open a ticket on their community forum.
  536. pep. And if nothing changes (which I'm almost certain), I'll raise that to board
  537. xnamed^ I think there is nothing we can do, it's US ban
  538. pep. Can you dig trello.com?
  539. xnamed^ I live in Latakia Syria, regime controlled, I don't know what more information to tell
  540. pep. They also have servers in europe apparently. That's what their dns give me from here, and from Asia they give me the US servers
  541. mathieui https://pix.mathieui.net/o/UobYh.png well if you need the agenda, xnamed^
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  575. xnamed^ is there any XEP for keyboards like in Telegram bots ( https://core.telegram.org/bots#keyboards )?
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  577. pep. I guess this might help? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0439.html
  578. xnamed^ thanks pep.
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  614. SamWhited Hi all; IIRC MattJ is working on an update to MAM so hopefully that will be undeferred soon, but XEP-0359 is also deferred and it's required by MAM and generally being used more and more. Can we undeferr it somehow? Maybe just by issuing a LC, or is anyone planning changes to it soon?
  615. SamWhited I was thinking about using it in something, but it's just confusing to everyone when more and more of the ecosystem is using specs that say that you shouldn't use them in big red letters at the top, so it would be nice if we could change this.
  616. krauq has joined
  617. MattJ I have two concerns about it right now: I (like a number of other people) strongly feel that origin-id should be removed, or a rule added that it must always match the id attribute if present
  618. MattJ Secondly it was meant to decouple ids from MAM, but it hasn't in practice
  619. MattJ There is no way to add an id to a stanza without archiving it if you are an archiving entity
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  623. SamWhited Yah, I'm not a huge fan of it either, I just hate us relying on something that's deferred everywhere. MAM is a huge part of the ecosystem already, and you wouldn't know it if you find it by searching for "how to have archives in XMPP" or something.
  624. pep. I say remove Deferred? :x
  625. pep. This state is just useless
  626. pep. There the last modified date at the top, it's enough already
  627. SamWhited I disagree with removing deferred, it's very useful in general, I just think we should be careful that widely implemented and popular parts of the ecosystem actually get moved forward.
  628. neshtaxmpp has left
  629. SamWhited Or even if that just means having a whitelist where council decides "this is popular, it should not go to deferred even if it hasn't been modified in a while"
  630. pep. How is it useful?
  631. pep. What's the goal of deferred really
  632. pep. If it's only "indicating that something hasn't been updated in a while", then there's a date at the top already.
  633. SamWhited So that I'm not tempted to implement every random crappy XEP that someone submitted once and no one implemented but now it's in the list
  634. pep. And then that confuses everybody who doesn't understand our process
  635. SamWhited No one looks at dates.
  636. SamWhited They just scroll down the list of XEPs on the /extensions page of the website, or stumble upon them from a search.
  637. SamWhited We want to keep that list at least sort of manageable
  638. pep. Why would there be a whitelist of XEPs that shouldn't go in deferred. Isn't deferred supposed to indicate that a XEP hasn't been updated in a while?
  639. SamWhited Because some XEPs haven't been updated in a while but are also widely used and popular.
  640. SamWhited And those should still be in the list and we still want to encourage experimental implementations of them.
  641. pep. Sure, Deferred doesn't prevent a XEP from being used
  642. SamWhited I never said that it did
  643. pep. And it's still equivalent to Experimental
  644. pep. Not sure what's the issue
  645. pep. If you're going to make exceptions I say just remove it. (I say remove it anyway..)
  646. SamWhited The difference is that experimental says this at the top: "the protocol described herein is encouraged in exploratory implementations"
  647. SamWhited And deferred says this: "Implementation of the protocol described herein is not recommended for production systems"
  648. SamWhited We want to eventually reach that last state where we say "no one has looked at this in a while and it never took off, so probably don't do it" and council won't vote on every one, so automatic deferral is probably good.
  649. SamWhited However, council also doesn't move things forward very fast, so the way we have it setup right now it catches too many false positives and defers useful things.
  650. SamWhited So I'm just spitballing suggestions for how we could fix that.
  651. pep. I also proposed one
  652. SamWhited I know, and I tried to explain why I thought it was a bad idea.
  653. pep. Well all I hear you saying is "I don't like that it's not stated on deferred XEPs that it's still equivalent to experimental"
  654. SamWhited You'll end up having some sort of deferred state anyways, council will just have to decide when to move things to it and will forget and won't move tons of random old crap which will stay in experimental forever.
  655. pep. That's an easy fix
  656. SamWhited It's not still equivalent to experimental, I literally just posted why they're different.
  657. pep. It's experimental + time passed
  658. SamWhited No, it's not. It's "don't implement this" and experimental is "try implementing this and tell us what happens"
  659. SamWhited If you remove the time limit, then council ends up having to move to some deferred like state anyways because we want a way to say "don't implement this"
  660. pep. Why would time be the only factor in choosing to implement a spec, that's.. weird
  661. pep. (not to say stupid)
  662. pep. Council is not the only factor here
  663. SamWhited It doesn't have to be, that's exactly what I'm saying, we should find an alternative. Having time as one of those factors just takes weight off of councils shoulders though because they don't have to remember to double check every random experimental XEP to see if they should defer it every year or so
  664. pep. Message retraction was a good example for this
  665. pep. Somebody sent it, it got LC'd iirc, it got dropped by the author, then 3-4 years later somebody digged it up
  666. pep. (LC'd and refused)
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  668. pep. Tbh I don't like our process very much. Experimental or not, XEPs are gonna change anyway, or they're gonna be changed by other XEPs (which is exactly the same to me). As a developer, Deferred doesn't give me any concrete information apart from "Somebody (possibly multiple) didn't have time to look into it".
  669. pep. I'd rather have rejection reasons included in specs when they've gone through LC already
  670. pep. rather than just leaving it in a big bag of who-knows-whats-gonna-happen-to-these
  671. SamWhited Oh yah, I definitely think it would be beneficial to have a rejection summary in the specs, that would be great. For everything else though, deferred is useful because it's important to know "Somebody didn't have time to look into it"
  672. pep. How is that important. Somebody did make the effort to come up with the idea at least
  673. pep. How is that important. Somebody did make the effort to write down their idea at least
  674. SamWhited They did, and that doesn't mean the XSF should encourage implementing it. We have enough confusion without a million old XEPs that someone touched once and then never looked at again floating around with banners at the top saying "Try implementing me and see what happens"
  675. SamWhited If no one has touched it in a while and it never got popular, it makes sense to step back and not encourage it unless someone wants to pick up the slack and work on it again.
  676. pep. "that doesn't mean the XSF should encourage implementing it", the XSF already does. For a year after it's been promoted to Experimental
  677. pep. What has changed is.. time
  678. SamWhited I know, that's literally what I'm saying.
  679. xnamed^ has joined
  680. xnamed^ > I guess this might help? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0439.html Great, what about suggestions too while typing a command, maybe we can add option to request bot commands : Prefix Description Syntax, to be used by the client, for example autocomplete nicknames and JIDs, and to send command correctly Maybe some icons
  681. pep. SamWhited, Yeah and then you get things like MAM as you said earlier. My feeling about a whitelist is "meh", sorry I don't have much feedback, but having an exception to the process feels weird
  682. SamWhited yah, fair enough, a whitelist would feel weird to me too
  683. SamWhited Maybe some other state between experimental and draft, or just redefine draft to be easier to edit.
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  685. pep. We should try to kill this myths that nothing changes :)
  686. SamWhited MAM doesn't seem to fit into deferred at all, and is currently not ready for the current draft state (apparently since it's still being modified a lot and doesn't survive last calls), but it's obviously widely adopted and the ecosystem doesn't really work without it, so it seems like there should be something else for it.
  687. pep. "a lot" is quite relative
  688. pep. It changes.
  689. SamWhited Fine, it changes. Doesn't really matter if it's "a lot" or once every few years, the point still stands.
  690. pep. I'm no council but I could see it in draft tbh
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  692. SamWhited Oh yah, personally on this particular spec I think we should just move it to draft and be done with it, but I feel the same way for carbons and a lot of other stuff
  693. pep. Sure
  694. SamWhited So if it doesn't fit in experimental (which council may or may not agree with, I dunno) and council doesn't think it fits in draft, I can only conclude that something needs to change.
  695. pep. Then when somebody(tm) figures out how to fix carbon, either fix the document, or if too many people complain then make a new one (it's the same anyway..)
  696. pep. xnamed^, that would depend on the client
  697. pep. When sending the message, the bot would state what commands it expects
  698. pep. The client can use this information
  699. pep. SamWhited, maybe that means the XSF needs to put more effort in getting these things adopted :)
  700. SamWhited pep. agreed.
  701. SamWhited The editors have been doing a good job of at least LCing stuff recently, which is great.
  702. pep. We can't force implementations to update their codebase instantly though, for feedback
  703. pep. We can sponsors things to be implemented, certainly
  704. SamWhited Anyways, I'm going back offline now, if an editor could move XEP-0359 out of deferred, however that's done, I'd appreciate it. A LC might be good on that one just to solicit more feedback and get it back to experimental.
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  706. xnamed^ pep.: I think depending on both, what client would expect from bot as normal message and use that information for command suggestions, the idea is to reduce typing and sending messages
  707. pep. I'm not sure what more you need from the bot
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  712. xnamed^ First thing need to tell the client this is a bot 😁
  713. pep. You don't actually need to know it's a bot do you
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  715. pep. You just need to see there are preformatted answers you can use
  716. pep. But anyway, if you really want to know it's a bot, you can check XEP-0030 identities, https://xmpp.org/registrar/disco-categories.html#client
  717. xnamed^ Not exactly I need to know if bot or not, but if has commands which can be used for suggestions
  718. xnamed^ Same way of ad hoc commands
  719. pep. Then you can use the 0439 as I linked earlier
  720. pep. If you see such payload then you know what to reply
  721. pep. If you receive such payload then you know what to reply
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  724. pep. xnamed^, https://core.telegram.org/bots#commands < for something like this, use ad-hoc? And then maybe find/write a way to advertize this is the set of commands you support as a bot
  725. pep. Not sure if there's such a thing already
  726. pep. It might be weird though to use ad-hoc and also send messages
  727. xnamed^ Yes, so I suggest to be new xep
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