XSF Discussion - 2020-05-28

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  167. flow pep., https://github.com/Flowdalic/xeps-xsf/commit/b4a0deb99a3ad9582be5dbfbc933920a478aa4b7
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  205. pep. flow: shipit!
  206. pep. I guess I'll pull and remove my version block to put it afterwards
  207. Zash Aren't all fields URIs?
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  210. flow pep., do as you wish, e.g. feel free to squash
  211. flow Zash, yes, but one could consider that it would be a breaking change if we add <validate/> to already existing form field registry entries
  212. flow I'd even say that all fields all URLs, but there appears to be no xs:anyURL
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  217. pep. flow: not all fields are URLs no :x
  218. Zash URI, not URL
  219. pep. yes URI
  220. flow ahh right there are probably mailto: fields
  221. pep. and xmpp:
  222. pep. and..
  223. Link Mauve You can do a disco#info on xmpp:jabber.fr, we don’t have a single URL there.
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  225. Zash Does 0157 even say that everything's an URI?
  226. Link Mauve Only in the examples obviously.
  227. Zash Data forms validation on result forms... it's not like a requester can take much action if something doesn't validate.
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  261. flow the validation is on the form field
  262. pep. I'd say it's merely a way to specify the type of data we expect to find in it (because it's not done for the other fields)
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  264. flow it sure is
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  270. flow but still teh validation is on the form field, so if ever this data form of 'type' form appears, which does not seem impossible, then the registry entry means that it must have a <validate/>
  271. Zash I suppose if you'd have a way to configure this via ad-hoc or somesuch it'd be nice to have
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  275. pep. Is anybody else than the server operator going to fill these?
  276. pep. Ah hmm yes
  277. pep. I'm thinking about cases like jabberfr serving other user's domains
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  279. queen_tilfaar Does this server have federated server to server communication disabled?
  280. pep. which server
  281. queen_tilfaar Conversations.im
  282. Zash I'm suddenly very confused
  283. pep. same
  284. pep. queen_tilfaar, no conversations.im doesn't have s2s disabled (I really doubt it). But I don't understand where this comes from, if you can add some bit of context that'd be great :)
  285. Zash nor does this MUC. everyone here has joined via s2s.
  286. queen_tilfaar Sure. Here it is.When I try to chat in this server using another account xxmp account, the message does not go through until I use this server's account.
  287. pep. Zash, everyone? :P
  288. pep. anon...
  289. Zash pep., right, but those rarely stay very long
  290. pep. Zash, ^ I think this is a case of anon.
  291. Zash They show up with an avatar to me, so I wouldn't think so.
  292. pep. ah ok
  293. pep. muc avatars in poezio when?! Link Mauve!
  294. pep. avatars in muc in poezio when?! Link Mauve!
  295. Zash Also doesn't fit with "conversations.im"
  296. queen_tilfaar I still don't get it 😭
  297. pep. I don't either
  298. Zash This chat is *not* on conversations.im
  299. Zash It's on muc.xmpp.org
  300. queen_tilfaar Oh maybe is it because of the other sever doesnt support s2s?
  301. Zash If you joined here with an conversations.im-account, then s2s must be working
  302. queen_tilfaar Oh my bad
  303. queen_tilfaar But still the issue exist just saying
  304. Zash If you have an account elsewhere that can't join here, then it's most likely a problem with that server
  305. queen_tilfaar No what I meant to say is,
  306. Zash Don't have enough info to say more
  307. queen_tilfaar If I try to chat with conversations.imnl account disabled, I can't chat on this server even though s2s is enabled here
  308. queen_tilfaar Sorry I'm new to this
  309. queen_tilfaar I have to enable for the message to go through
  310. queen_tilfaar Even though I have my other account enabled
  311. pep. queen_tilfaar, what client are you using? Conversations?
  312. queen_tilfaar Yes
  313. pep. When you say "conversations.im account disabled", what does that mean?
  314. pep. You have added multiple accounts in conversations?
  315. pep. What is "here"
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  317. queen_tilfaar I have 2 xmpp accounts
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  319. queen_tilfaar One is conversations.im and another different one
  320. queen_tilfaar I cant chat in this server if I have my conversation.im account disabled aka just with my other account alone
  321. pep. Maybe ask the operator of your other account
  322. queen_tilfaar So that means the problem is with the other server and can conversations.im right?
  323. pep. conversations.im would be the least suspicious in this story
  324. Zash Do you get an error message or something?
  325. queen_tilfaar Ok will do sorry I got just a little confused. Tnx for bumping my head up a little 😘
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  327. queen_tilfaar Do you get an error message or something? Yeah something like enable the account to send the message
  328. pep. hmm? So is there any account enabled at all when you try to send a message?
  329. queen_tilfaar I'll do some experiments and hopefully contact the server ppl to see what went wrong
  330. queen_tilfaar hmm? So is there any account enabled at all when you try to send a message? Yes my other account is enabled. I don't know how i made such a noob mistake of mistaking the error
  331. Zash Then I think it doesn't work like you think it works.
  332. Zash I have never used Conversations with multiple accounts, but it probably remembers which account you used to join, and disabling that and enabling another will probably not make that account join it without you doing something.
  333. queen_tilfaar > Then I think it doesn't work like you think it works. No I just made a mistake. The problem might be with the other server. I have to Check it to make sure
  334. pep. Zash, ah right
  335. pep. That would surely be confusing
  336. Zash Maybe it would be better to ask about it in the Conversations room rather than here?
  337. pep. Indeed
  338. Zash Multi-account UX is Hard
  339. queen_tilfaar True. That's what I did wrong. All these days I mistook this server as the conversation.im server hence the confusion
  340. queen_tilfaar Idiot me. Tnx for helping
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  343. Zash Oh, there's a datatype registry in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html#registrar-reg-datatypes-init ?
  344. Zash I thought these were defined by XML
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  347. Zash Data validation wishlist: JID parts, XEP-0082.
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  352. pep. I'm reading 369: > MIX messages and presence are always sent and are addressed to the user (bare JID). This addressing is a consequence of users (not clients) being the participants in a MIX channel; It is a key difference between MUC and MIX. This addressing change means that the user's server needs to have MIX-specific behaviour to correctly distribute arriving messages and presence appropriately to MIX clients; there may be zero or more online clients that support MIX. This server behaviour is specified by MIX.
  353. pep. Does this mean that not all clients have to receive messages from a MIX channel (they don't have to be joined), or that if they support MIX they will receive messages
  354. alexis has joined
  355. pep. I guess I'll ask on the list
  356. pep. !
  357. pep. it's time
  358. pep. MattJ, Guus, Seve, ralphm
  359. MattJ Hey, sorry, was on the phone
  360. Seve No problem :)
  361. pep. Not that there is much on the agenda but I'd like to at least have some quick observations re the marketing task
  362. pep. # Welcome
  363. pep. Anybody got an agenda item to add?
  364. Guus I'm here
  365. MattJ Nothing to add here
  366. Guus nothing from me
  367. pep. Ok then I'll go on with the marketing thing:
  368. pep. Thanks for those who've participated in the meeting we had on monday regarding the marketing task. We (I?) decided to invite board and commteam to a private channel because the document we were going to talk about was tagged confidential. It appeared almost none of the discussion resolved around specifics of that document though, so maybe we should have done it here..
  369. pep. With this out of the way,
  370. pep. From what I understand, and after a few days of letting it sink, it seems to me that some people disagree with what I wanted to do. What I had in mind taking this task was to help commteam, which at the time was not in really good shape (Nyco asking for help during Summit) and then disappearing for some time (not blaming, "we're all volunteers") leaving the team inactive before emus picked up some pieces and then jc surfaced again (again, not blaming),
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  372. pep. So my first goal was to reinforce the team. Which I don't think was really understood by all participants in the meeting on monday
  373. Seve That was not what the document suggested me. to me it feels you are talking about a community manager, but the proposal was different than that, to my eyes.
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  376. pep. From what I can see, some people really want to expand on what the XSF does. Which may be fine and I'm not opposed to this, but it's just not what I had in mind.
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  378. pep. So I'm going to park the task until commteam says they actually want it.
  379. Guus We've engaged a third party, that has been put in some effort. We should be clear to them as to expectations/timelines.
  380. MattJ Well, two concrete desires were highlighted at the meeting: pretty much everyone agreed that we want proper testimonials and a jobs board
  381. pep. Guus, yes I'm keeping them up-to-date as possible
  382. Guus ok!
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  385. Guus I think we've already agreed on having a job board, months ago?
  386. Seve Yes
  387. pep. last term yes
  388. Guus testimonials is an ongoing thing too.
  389. pep. But these are different tasks
  390. Guus I"m in favor of both - could also be done in parallel to a marketing effort (which in my mind is something different)
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  392. pep. It just puts me in a weird position when the team who's concerned with this doesn't even agree
  393. pep. Which is why I wanted them on-board from the start, and I think I tried to but maybe I didn't do it properly
  394. Guus let's approach this similar to what we're doing with iteam: if the WT needs (paid) resources to improve their performance, board has signaled that it's open to that.
  395. Guus We can look at the WT to come up with suggestions on how to do that best.
  396. Guus What Matt and pep prepared could be a very good start to that effort - but it might be good to let the WT take the lead?
  397. Guus that prevents the awkward situation that pep described.
  398. pep. I'm happy to hand over contact details of the contractor after checking with them, if commteam is interested
  399. pep. But I need some kind of hint :)
  400. pep. That's it from me, I think.
  401. Guus Commteam members have explicitly asked for professional help - at least nyco has been vocal about this.
  402. Guus So, I'm assuming that the groundwork that you and Matt did is very helpful to do that.
  403. pep. Others seem to have a different opinion though
  404. Guus That's new to me - we've been talking about this on and of for months.
  405. emus If we are so unclear how or were in a Wt we need help, but agree that we need help, good professionals can also help to figure out what it could be actually
  406. emus If we are so unclear how or were in a WT we need help, but agree that we need help, good professionals can also help to figure out what it could be actually
  407. Guus I suggest we punt this to the CommsTeam, and ask them to come up with a wishlist and/or plan of attack
  408. emus > So, I'm assuming that the groundwork that you and Matt did is very helpful to do that. I think so too
  409. Guus so that at least there's consensus.
  410. MattJ Ok, so commteam please reach consensus and tell us what you want
  411. Guus Who's the lead of comm anyway? Nyco?
  412. pep. Is there a lead at all
  413. Seve I was not aware about what you guys talk regarding nyco requesting help
  414. Zash What's "WT"?
  415. Guus WT = work team
  416. Zash ack
  417. Guus they are supposed to have a chair, as defined in the bylaws, from how I understand them.
  418. pep. Seve, right, it has been said during Summit. I don't remember if this was written explicitely in the minutes sorry. But I remember it being mentioned online multiple times anyway
  419. Guus pep. can you confirm with comm team that they will tell us what they'd prefer, investment wise?
  420. Guus lets take it from there.
  421. pep. I'll follow-up with commteam
  422. pep. # AOB?
  423. Guus none here
  424. pep. Next: +1w
  425. emus # Can we have XSF meetings also at another time? (maybe once a month?)
  426. emus I dont know how many at least in Europe are working right now?
  427. emus maybe evening time once a month would help to let more people attent too
  428. Guus Are you suggesting to move this board meeting, or do you want to have a new meeting?
  429. emus Yes, sorry, this board meeting
  430. emus no always, maybe with alternating times
  431. pep. I guess most are working. I don't personally have an issue with moving the time, and as much as I'd like to accomodate members to join, I think this is mostly done to accomodate board members to join
  432. Guus I'd personally do not want to move this meeting, as that would clash with my other responsibilities.
  433. MattJ Indeed, work time for me ends at 5pm and that's when family time begins - I wouldn't be able to attend an evening meeting
  434. emus Okay, but if we have at least one of 4 meetings in a month at another time. because like this it excludes others completely too, right?
  435. Guus And, although it's not a private meeting, there might be value in not making this a town hall meeting either?
  436. emus 🤷‍♂️ sure, but for me is usually hard to attentd this time
  437. emus I think that counts for others as well
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  439. emus but if Im the only one keep on doing
  440. pep. I appreciate the effort to participate in XSF meetings anyway :)
  441. pep. That's not the case for member
  442. Guus We have a lot of discussion venues outside of this particular meeting. To keep these meetings concise, it might be beneficial of not having everyone join in ,and have discussions elsewhere?
  443. emus Ok fine, agreed
  444. pep. # Any other AOB?
  445. Guus I'd be happy to move things around if it accomodates others, but not to the extend that it's putting up barriers for board members themselves to join.
  446. emus Don't have a feeling about how important attentance is in general.
  447. Guus (still no AOBs for me)
  448. pep. # Close
  449. pep. Thanks all.
  450. Seve Same, thank you.
  451. emus Thanks
  452. pep. emus, personally I'm happy for you to comment on list for example against minutes or the like if you can't attend a specific meeting
  453. pep. It would have the same value to me
  454. emus sure
  455. pep. (I'm also open to moving the time of the meeting, but it seems it's not possible for other board members so that's it)
  456. emus no, just leave it
  457. Guus If anything, I'd prefer to make these meetings shorter - less discussing things, but more deciding on things. If we can move the 'discussion' bit elsewhere, that'd benefit us, I think.
  458. pep. Guus, I've been hinting at using the list for most things :x
  459. emus is fine for the moment. I woulf rather ask if member have expectations to attend to meetings like this
  460. emus is fine for the moment. I would rather ask if member have expectations to attend to meetings like this
  461. pep. But it seems people want to meet here anyway
  462. emus > If anything, I'd prefer to make these meetings shorter - less discussing things, but more deciding on things. If we can move the 'discussion' bit elsewhere, that'd benefit us, I think. 👍
  463. Guus pep. I think doing more discussion on-list is good. We'd still need the meetings to formally agree to stuff. I'm just afraid that we're running on fumes, resource wise.
  464. Zash Are board meeting agendas posted to the list(s)?
  465. pep. To the list no, it's still trello
  466. pep. Maybe we should petition the chair to send agendas :)
  467. Zash I do like the way jonas’ posts the Council agenda in advance
  468. Zash to the list(s) specifically
  469. pep. Yeah I agree. And technically bylaws says something something 3 days in advance
  470. Guus me too. to be fair, Council pre-Jonas did the same.
  471. Guus maybe board has let things slide a bit - might be good to pick that up.
  472. Guus something to consider for the next meeting 🙂
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  474. Guus I need to be doing other stuff now
  475. Guus ttyl!
  476. pep. I just added the item to the agenda ;p
  477. pep. I just added an item to the agenda ;p
  478. jonas’ 14:16:30 Zash> I do like the way jonas’ posts the Council agenda in advance I refuse to take credit for that
  479. Zash :O
  480. moparisthebest you can't give credit back
  481. pep. Can't you?
  482. Guus > you can't give credit back Indeed. We enforce credit upon you!
  483. jonas’ republican credits are worth nothing out here either way ;P
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  485. emus Spam will detect that we need credits and gold now
  486. Guus Did you just quote Watto on us? 🙂
  487. emus watto?
  488. jonas’ Guus, I did
  489. Guus Emus: star wars.
  490. Guus re: 'republican credits'
  491. jonas’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watto
  492. emus Ah, now I remember
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  494. pep. star wars quotes. I'm so not in on those
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  497. Guus not to worry, we have you covered.
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  500. pep. I will write the minutes btw, somewhere around tonight or tomorrow
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  557. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html#find-channel-participants can anybody discover participants in MIX?
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  562. jonas’ speaking in terms of pubsub, the pubsub node with the participants may have ACLs based on the affiliation.
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  564. jonas’ if you’re not subscribed, it’s possible you’re not allowed to retrieve items
  565. Andrzej also MIX should (I think) look at https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0406.html#config-node field "Participants Node Subscription" value
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  607. pep. jonas’, with pubsub sure. does that mean everything pubsub is possible in MIX's pubsub nodes
  608. pep. I'm just starting to read the thing
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