XSF Discussion - 2020-06-02

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  191. Alex

    Memberbot is still online for our member meeting today. If you have not voted yet you can still do so

  192. Link Mauve

    Is Davide Conzon here? If so, do you have a JID which federates with the rest of the Jabber network?

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  207. Neustradamus

    Alex: after the ending, it will be possible to test the memberbot solution to have no instead of No?

  208. Neustradamus

    I have sent you code to test in real several months ago...

  209. Alex

    I cherry picked the code

  210. Alex

    It's there already

  211. Alex

    Master branch is broken and does not work. I need help to get ithis code fixed. People pushed non working code without testing it

  212. Alex

    Master branch is broken and does not work. I need help to get ithis code fixed and working

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  216. Holger

    Someone (Alex?) mentioned that these application time windows are outdated: > Applications from prospective new members are accepted during the first two weeks of every quarter (i.e., the first two weeks of January, April, July, and October). How does it work these days?

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  218. Alex

    Holger: usually I try to align with the timelines we had in previous years according to the wiki. Happy to agree on fixed timelines when it helps

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  220. Holger

    Alex: Nah, fine with me. So next round would be early August AFAICS.

  221. Alex


  222. Holger

    I planned to apply for some months now and kept being too late to the party so I thought I'd add a reminder to my calender, that's all :-)

  223. Alex

    Just create your application page now and I will add it to the Q3 application page

  224. Alex

    Or I ping you when the Q3 page is created

  225. Holger

    You sound as if I was able to get things done *before* it's almost too late.

  226. Holger

    :-) Hopefully my calender will do the trick this time. But thanks a lot!

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  228. Seve

    happy to hear that Holger !!!

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  230. jonas’

    Holger, I may also add you to my mental nagging list ;)

  231. jonas’

    like I pester Link Mauve all the time about the reapplication ;)

  232. Link Mauve

    Holger, welcome to the club! :D

  233. Holger

    Heh, glad I'm not alone.

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  313. DebXWoody

    Hi. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0373.html#discover-pubkey "Note that the result may contain multiple pubkey elements. Only the public keys found in the most recent item MUST be used." I don't get this. Why should there more than one public key? Which one is the most recent item?

  314. Daniel

    That doesn't feel right

  315. Daniel

    It should probably say that the node should be used and configured as a singleton node

  316. pep.

    "most recent item", is that the thing that's not-really-well-defined? (most recently created vs updated?)

  317. pep.

    (or is that defined now?)

  318. pep.

    Daniel, why?

  319. pep.

    I don't think 373 forces a single key per account

  320. Daniel

    But in one item

  321. pep.

    ah right

  322. Daniel

    According to the quoted wording

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  324. pep.

    Well the quote suggests there might be multiple items, not multiple things in an <item/>

  325. Daniel

    I think our knowledge and understanding of PEP was different when the xep was written

  326. Daniel

    > Well the quote suggests there might be multiple items, not multiple things in an <item/> Yes. And you can avoid that was proper singleton nodes

  327. Daniel

    Which the authors probably didn't really know

  328. Daniel

    And/or implementations were more broken back then

  329. pep.

    Right, and different nodes for different keys

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  331. Daniel


  332. Daniel

    Not sure if one would do that today

  333. Daniel

    I was just Reacting to the quote

  334. Daniel

    I didn't check the xep

  335. pep.


  336. DebXWoody

    There is a second question. I think it's not required to push the public key on the PEP. The client should be able to lookup for the key on the local keyring. I implemented it via lookup of checking the userid as XMPP URI in the local keyring. If there are more than one public key, should it be encrypted to all keys?

  337. pep.

    "the [only] client"?

  338. Daniel

    I guess since you are one of the first people to implemt this I guess it's on you to use your best judgment and provide feedback

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  341. Daniel

    Personally I would probably only implemt lookup and not mix in third party key sources

  342. DebXWoody

    There are already same problems with the gajim plugin :-(

  343. pep.

    If you don't push your public key on PEP, how are people going to encrypt to you? Am I missing something

  344. Daniel

    I wouldn't even use the local Keychain that is used for 'regular' pgp

  345. pep.

    yeah I wouldn't either

  346. DebXWoody

    I would :-)

  347. pep.

    Sure, that's left to the implementation anyway

  348. pep.

    Is that only for profanity? Any other clients you're pushing that to?

  349. DebXWoody

    yes, profanity and a small gtk application.

  350. DebXWoody

    Ok, I will try to write down some notes and send a mail on the mailinglist.

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  352. DebXWoody


  353. Daniel

    Isn't the possibility of having multiple keys inviting the same problems that omemo has

  354. Daniel

    Aka not being able to do tofu

  355. Daniel

    But having to resort to BTBV

  356. pep.

    Daniel, wasn't there talks about a "master key" at Summit?

  357. Daniel

    Even if few people actually do it the fact that it is allowed means I have to have trust ui for that

  358. pep.

    on the account

  359. pep.

    That being independent from $e2ee, so you could have OX or OMEMO behind I guess

  360. pep.

    Maybe somebody(tm) should write this down somewhere

  361. flow

    OpenPGP keyrings can consists of multiple keys

  362. flow

    OpenPGP keyrings can consist of multiple keys

  363. DebXWoody

    I did already started in German: https://codeberg.org/xmpp-messenger/eagle/wiki/BS-XMPPOXOpenPGP I will try to work on it. Maybe in the wiki?

  364. pep.


  365. flow

    the design question is if the data/metadata node split is still required, given that we could to payload less notifications

  366. flow

    the initial version of OX, had no split, then we split and now it looks like we do not need the split

  367. flow

    singleton nodes are not relevant here

  368. flow

    I *think* you can argue in favor of the data/metadata node split if we want to support multiple keyrings per user, which we do now

  369. DebXWoody

    There can be more than one Key for a UID, but I don't like it. The user has to decided which key / key he would like to use.

  370. Daniel

    Singelton nodes and metadata spilt are two different issues

  371. Zash

    metadata split?

  372. Daniel

    The quoted paragraph is already requesting what should only contain one key

  373. flow

    Daniel, right, my point was that there singleton nodes only help collect garbage, they don't offer an advantage when it comes to determing the current keyring(s)

  374. flow

    Zash, xep373 § 4.1 and 4.2

  375. Daniel

    The quoted paragraph says you might get multiple items in return

  376. Daniel

    Which wouldn't be the case if the node was a singleton

  377. flow

    Daniel, I don't have the paragraph in front of me, which one was it again?

  378. Daniel

    > Hi. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0373.html#discover-pubkey > "Note that the result may contain multiple pubkey elements. Only the public keys found in the most recent item MUST be used." > I don't get this. Why should there more than one public key? Which one is the most recent item?

  379. flow

    in any way, you could also simply request only the latest item

  380. Daniel

    That was the initial question

  381. Daniel

    And what I was Reacting to

  382. flow

    Uh, that is multiple pubkeys per item

  383. flow

    xep373 ex7 uses max_items=1

  384. Daniel

    Which makes the quoted paragraph even more confusing

  385. flow

    no wait, that is a request on a data node

  386. flow

    Ahh I guess I see now

  387. flow

    that is why the second sentence hints towards using max_items=1

  388. lovetox

    flow you could add a paragraph that says singleton node has to be used

  389. Daniel

    Even max_items=1 is just a work around for a proper singleton node

  390. flow

    well from a protocol POV there is no need to use a singleton node

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  392. pep.

    id="current" etc.?

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  394. Daniel

    pep.: yes. Plus max items 1 on the node config

  395. lovetox

    flow either your XEP wants to request a single item

  396. Daniel

    Not on request

  397. lovetox

    then it should also enforce singleton node

  398. lovetox

    or not then you dont need maxitems=1

  399. Daniel

    I'm not saying the xep is wrong or anything

  400. Daniel

    Just our best practices have changed

  401. Daniel

    Wrt to PEP

  402. flow

    sure, the question is, if older versions of the keyring could be beneficial in some cases

  403. flow

    I can not answer that, and hence I am a little bit reluctant to specify the singleton node as a must

  404. Daniel

    Isn't the key supposed to be stripped down?

  405. flow

    Daniel, could you elaborate on max_items being just a work around for proper singleton nodes?

  406. Daniel

    So what kind of information would change?

  407. Daniel

    flow: well one limits the request the other actually let's the server store only one

  408. DebXWoody

    There is no need to have different versions of the public key.

  409. flow

    Daniel, right, I say that those are for different use cases

  410. lovetox

    flow are you aware whata singleton node is in pubsub?

  411. flow

    lovetox, yes

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  413. Daniel

    If the intent is to make historic variants of the key available the xep should state that as a feature

  414. Daniel

    Otherwise it comes of like an accident

  415. lovetox

    ok, so max-items=1 request always the last item, so why would you have a node that stores unlimited items

  416. lovetox

    if you always only request one

  417. flow

    as I said, I do not have an answer if having the history of the pubkey is benefical or not. Hence this part of the XEP is deliberatly designed so that we can experiment with it

  418. lovetox

    no its not, you looked at other XEPs back at that time and copied what they did

  419. lovetox

    now its a design decision

  420. lovetox

    ok :)

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  422. Zash

    Not sure if it fits this use case, but there's a thing in XEP-0060 about payloadless notifications that could be nice for certain PEP uses. Avatars for example, if it had been designed with that in mind.

  423. Daniel

    It really doesn't come of as deliberate

  424. Daniel

    But noted

  425. flow

    So the XEP saying nothing about singleton nodes but recommending to use max_items=1 when requesting, while I followed the whole OMEMO singleton discussion does not come as deliberate?

  426. Daniel


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  428. lovetox

    anyway this discussion is not relevant client side anyway, as a client has to use max_items=1 anyway because we cannot depend that all other clients respect the singleton node

  429. flow

    I feel a little bit accused, but anyway. I mean the arguments in favor of keeping are not strong, I know, but I also do not see any harm in keeping the history

  430. lovetox

    its just a server thing to not store unlimited items

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  433. flow

    sure, I hope servers have a quota mechanism of some sort

  434. Zash

    There was a brief period after adding support for multiple items in Prosody and before adding limits where it it could store unlimited items.

  435. pep.

    well not declaring it a singleton node tells clients this can be a list, right? (then I'm not sure why the max_items=1 at all if it's not meant to be a singleton node)

  436. flow

    pep., because in most cases you want the most recent version of the key

  437. pep.

    Does max_items=1/singleton have anything to do with this?

  438. pep.

    (sorry I'm not sure I followed all of the above)

  439. Daniel

    Can you give an example for when the historic version of the same key is useful?

  440. flow

    with either of them you get the most recent version

  441. pep.

    flow, ah so a client can request max_items=1 for the "latest" but the server storing more?

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  443. flow

    Daniel, no, but can you list all examples and show that none of them benefits from prior data? ;)

  444. flow

    I mean, I can not right now, and it is not unlikely that there is none

  445. flow

    But at least in this stage I wouldn't close the door for it

  446. flow

    And again, I don't see any harm, since servers have incentive to purge old items anyway

  447. pep.

    There's gonna be an update of 373 at some point anyway, for SCE :p

  448. pep.

    Or maybe 374 rather(?)

  449. DebXWoody

    AFAIK, the local Keyring, the keyserver and WKD doesn't provides historic versions of public keys.

  450. flow

    pep., well actually SCE's design was inspired by what xep373/374 do

  451. pep.

    flow, I know

  452. Daniel

    Right. So if you can't give an example for why one would want such a feature and if the feature is not mentioned anywhere then this is the reason that I believe the feature was not deliberate

  453. pep.

    But now that we have a SCE..

  454. flow

    Daniel, if I don't know if it is a feature or not, then I would hardly spell it out in the xep

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  456. flow

    pep., sure, but at the current stage of SCE would switching OX to SCE provide any benefit and justify the version bump?

  457. pep.

    Might as well bump while there isn't many impls.

  458. flow

    bumping as soon as there is more than one experimental impl is hard, and we should also bump in batches

  459. flow

    that is, I would not bump for SCE alone, but if I had to bump, then sure, why not

  460. pep.


  461. flow

    I am not sure why this is disappointing?

  462. flow

    If we have learned one thing, then it is that version bumps should be taken carefully, and coordinated

  463. pep.

    Becaue I never get why people fear updates

  464. pep.

    It's just a thing that happens and we deal with it

  465. flow

    I don't think I fear updates

  466. flow

    But the fallout of version bumps can be significant

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  468. flow

    In fact I am happy to bump, esp. in the 'experimental' stage

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  470. pep.

    I only know of 2 implementations atm, gajim and DebXWoody's, 373 is not used. I'm not sure what's preventing a bump at all

  471. flow

    but I would not bump for every "tiny" thing

  472. flow

    well for one, as of 5 minutes ago, nobody suggested a bump

  473. flow

    then, the far more important design decission when it comes to OX, is not SCE, but the metadata node split

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  477. flow

    then, IMHO, the far more important design decission when it comes to OX, is not SCE, but the metadata node split

  478. DebXWoody

    what is SCE?

  479. pep.


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  481. pep.

    Stuff that 373 does, but not specific to OX

  482. DebXWoody

    Ok, I saw,.. but forgot :-)

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  486. flow

    pep., btw, smack has also an OX impl

  487. pep.


  488. lovetox

    flow what do you refering to when you talk about a meta data node split

  489. lovetox

    there is already a metadata node

  490. flow

    lovetox, right, the question is if we could go instead with payloadless notifications

  491. lovetox

    i would not classify this as "far more important"

  492. lovetox

    this was a idea by someone, never impl in any xep and tested

  493. flow

    well if we could get rid of the split, then it would reduce the complexity of the protocol somewhat

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  495. flow

    which is always desirable IMHO

  496. lovetox

    its not complex, we have that split in 20 other xeps

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  498. lovetox

    completely changing the syntax of how messages are transmitted ( SCE )

  499. flow

    well that does not mean that we have to continue that pattern if something better is feasible

  500. lovetox

    that is indeed a big change that should be made rather sooner than later

  501. flow

    is it really *completely* changing the syntax? IIRC SCE re-uses a lot names from OX

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  505. lovetox

    it breaks that what i meant, it does not really matter by how much

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  558. DebXWoody

    Notes I have in mind about OX: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages/OX

  559. Alex

    hey guys, anyone ready for our member meeting?

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  563. jonas’ is

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  565. Zash


  566. jonas’ also forgot about it, but I’m still ready!

  567. Alex bangs the gavel

  568. Alex

    here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-06-02

  569. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

  570. Alex

    as you can see 33 memebrs voted via proxy, so we have a quorum

  571. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

  572. Alex

    new and returning members, you can see all applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q2_2020

  573. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting

  574. Alex

    anyone here who has not voted yet and wants to do so? Membernot is still online. Also accepting votes over other channels

  575. jonas’

    Kev, you around?

  576. jonas’

    I seem to recall that Kev had issues contacting memberbot

  577. Kev

    I am. Yes, I wasn't able to vote.

  578. Mikaela has joined

  579. Kev

    (Because xmpp.org won't S2S with my server)

  580. jonas’

    how are you in this MUC then?

  581. Kev

    How do we actually do voting in person?

  582. Kev

    Different server.

  583. Alex

    Kev, you can send me your votes via private message if you want, or email

  584. Kev

    Memberbot knows me on my personal server, rather than work.

  585. Kev

    Alex: Or would it be easy to tell memberbot to know me at this address?

  586. Alex

    Kev, can whitelist also another Jid if you want

  587. Alex

    Kev, yes

  588. Alex

    send mme teh Jid and I will add it

  589. Kev

    There we go.

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  592. Kev


  593. Alex

    ya, try now please

  594. Alex

    restarted the bot, just in case

  595. Kev


  596. Kev

    Thanks Alex.

  597. Alex


  598. Alex

    anyone else? Otherwise I start counting

  599. Alex

    onay, working on the results then

  600. Guus rolls a drum

  601. Zash


  602. Kev

    (Thanks for the ping jonas’ too)

  603. jonas’

    Kev, you’re welchome :)

  604. jonas’

    Kev, you’re welcome :)

  605. Alex

    4) Announcement_of_Voting_Results

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  607. Alex

    when you reload teh page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-06-02#Announcement_of_Voting_Results you can see the results

  608. Alex

    all new and returning memebrs were accepted. Congrats to everyone

  609. neshtaxmpp has joined

  610. Alex

    5) Any Other Business?

  611. pep.

    None here

  612. Alex

    I need to update memberbot for our next voting to mmae sur ethe latest code on master works. Rigt now its throwing exceptions. I may ask for help here from more experiences python folks ;-)

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  616. Alex

    I think something broke with the update from sleekxmpp

  617. agustin cordero


  618. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  619. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  620. Guus

    Thanks again, Alex.

  621. pep.

    Thanks Alex

  622. Zash


  623. moparisthebest

    thanks Alex!

  624. Alex bangs the gavel

  625. pep.

    agustin cordero, hi

  626. Alex

    thanks everyone. Will updatethe lists tomorrow morning and send out mmeeting minutes to the list

  627. Guus

    My python skills are nonexistent

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  632. Kev

    Thanks Alex.

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  654. mathieui

    Thanks Alex

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  681. lovetox

    i wish i could unsubscribe a thread on the standards list

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  683. jonas’

    lovetox, open your sieve filters, match on References/In-Reply-To and discard;

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  685. jonas’

    in this case, you probalby want to match on a References header containing DB7PR02MB49561FD17292B534CAE51C60BC8D0@DB7PR02MB4956.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com

  686. lovetox

    filters, yeah such thing exists on my mail client, never needed it until now :D

  687. jonas’

    I’m *nearly* surpirsed that kmail doesn’t have a shortcut for creating a filter based on a thread…

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