XSF Discussion - 2020-06-02

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  191. Alex Memberbot is still online for our member meeting today. If you have not voted yet you can still do so
  192. Link Mauve Is Davide Conzon here? If so, do you have a JID which federates with the rest of the Jabber network?
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  207. Neustradamus Alex: after the ending, it will be possible to test the memberbot solution to have no instead of No?
  208. Neustradamus I have sent you code to test in real several months ago...
  209. Alex I cherry picked the code
  210. Alex It's there already
  211. Alex Master branch is broken and does not work. I need help to get ithis code fixed. People pushed non working code without testing it
  212. Alex Master branch is broken and does not work. I need help to get ithis code fixed and working
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  216. Holger Someone (Alex?) mentioned that these application time windows are outdated: > Applications from prospective new members are accepted during the first two weeks of every quarter (i.e., the first two weeks of January, April, July, and October). How does it work these days?
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  218. Alex Holger: usually I try to align with the timelines we had in previous years according to the wiki. Happy to agree on fixed timelines when it helps
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  220. Holger Alex: Nah, fine with me. So next round would be early August AFAICS.
  221. Alex Ya
  222. Holger I planned to apply for some months now and kept being too late to the party so I thought I'd add a reminder to my calender, that's all :-)
  223. Alex Just create your application page now and I will add it to the Q3 application page
  224. Alex Or I ping you when the Q3 page is created
  225. Holger You sound as if I was able to get things done *before* it's almost too late.
  226. Holger :-) Hopefully my calender will do the trick this time. But thanks a lot!
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  228. Seve happy to hear that Holger !!!
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  230. jonas’ Holger, I may also add you to my mental nagging list ;)
  231. jonas’ like I pester Link Mauve all the time about the reapplication ;)
  232. Link Mauve Holger, welcome to the club! :D
  233. Holger Heh, glad I'm not alone.
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  313. DebXWoody Hi. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0373.html#discover-pubkey "Note that the result may contain multiple pubkey elements. Only the public keys found in the most recent item MUST be used." I don't get this. Why should there more than one public key? Which one is the most recent item?
  314. Daniel That doesn't feel right
  315. Daniel It should probably say that the node should be used and configured as a singleton node
  316. pep. "most recent item", is that the thing that's not-really-well-defined? (most recently created vs updated?)
  317. pep. (or is that defined now?)
  318. pep. Daniel, why?
  319. pep. I don't think 373 forces a single key per account
  320. Daniel But in one item
  321. pep. ah right
  322. Daniel According to the quoted wording
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  324. pep. Well the quote suggests there might be multiple items, not multiple things in an <item/>
  325. Daniel I think our knowledge and understanding of PEP was different when the xep was written
  326. Daniel > Well the quote suggests there might be multiple items, not multiple things in an <item/> Yes. And you can avoid that was proper singleton nodes
  327. Daniel Which the authors probably didn't really know
  328. Daniel And/or implementations were more broken back then
  329. pep. Right, and different nodes for different keys
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  331. Daniel Yeah...
  332. Daniel Not sure if one would do that today
  333. Daniel I was just Reacting to the quote
  334. Daniel I didn't check the xep
  335. pep. sure
  336. DebXWoody There is a second question. I think it's not required to push the public key on the PEP. The client should be able to lookup for the key on the local keyring. I implemented it via lookup of checking the userid as XMPP URI in the local keyring. If there are more than one public key, should it be encrypted to all keys?
  337. pep. "the [only] client"?
  338. Daniel I guess since you are one of the first people to implemt this I guess it's on you to use your best judgment and provide feedback
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  341. Daniel Personally I would probably only implemt lookup and not mix in third party key sources
  342. DebXWoody There are already same problems with the gajim plugin :-(
  343. pep. If you don't push your public key on PEP, how are people going to encrypt to you? Am I missing something
  344. Daniel I wouldn't even use the local Keychain that is used for 'regular' pgp
  345. pep. yeah I wouldn't either
  346. DebXWoody I would :-)
  347. pep. Sure, that's left to the implementation anyway
  348. pep. Is that only for profanity? Any other clients you're pushing that to?
  349. DebXWoody yes, profanity and a small gtk application.
  350. DebXWoody Ok, I will try to write down some notes and send a mail on the mailinglist.
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  352. DebXWoody https://codeberg.org/xmpp-messenger/eagle/wiki/Usage
  353. Daniel Isn't the possibility of having multiple keys inviting the same problems that omemo has
  354. Daniel Aka not being able to do tofu
  355. Daniel But having to resort to BTBV
  356. pep. Daniel, wasn't there talks about a "master key" at Summit?
  357. Daniel Even if few people actually do it the fact that it is allowed means I have to have trust ui for that
  358. pep. on the account
  359. pep. That being independent from $e2ee, so you could have OX or OMEMO behind I guess
  360. pep. Maybe somebody(tm) should write this down somewhere
  361. flow OpenPGP keyrings can consists of multiple keys
  362. flow OpenPGP keyrings can consist of multiple keys
  363. DebXWoody I did already started in German: https://codeberg.org/xmpp-messenger/eagle/wiki/BS-XMPPOXOpenPGP I will try to work on it. Maybe in the wiki?
  364. pep. Sure
  365. flow the design question is if the data/metadata node split is still required, given that we could to payload less notifications
  366. flow the initial version of OX, had no split, then we split and now it looks like we do not need the split
  367. flow singleton nodes are not relevant here
  368. flow I *think* you can argue in favor of the data/metadata node split if we want to support multiple keyrings per user, which we do now
  369. DebXWoody There can be more than one Key for a UID, but I don't like it. The user has to decided which key / key he would like to use.
  370. Daniel Singelton nodes and metadata spilt are two different issues
  371. Zash metadata split?
  372. Daniel The quoted paragraph is already requesting what should only contain one key
  373. flow Daniel, right, my point was that there singleton nodes only help collect garbage, they don't offer an advantage when it comes to determing the current keyring(s)
  374. flow Zash, xep373 § 4.1 and 4.2
  375. Daniel The quoted paragraph says you might get multiple items in return
  376. Daniel Which wouldn't be the case if the node was a singleton
  377. flow Daniel, I don't have the paragraph in front of me, which one was it again?
  378. Daniel > Hi. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0373.html#discover-pubkey > "Note that the result may contain multiple pubkey elements. Only the public keys found in the most recent item MUST be used." > I don't get this. Why should there more than one public key? Which one is the most recent item?
  379. flow in any way, you could also simply request only the latest item
  380. Daniel That was the initial question
  381. Daniel And what I was Reacting to
  382. flow Uh, that is multiple pubkeys per item
  383. flow xep373 ex7 uses max_items=1
  384. Daniel Which makes the quoted paragraph even more confusing
  385. flow no wait, that is a request on a data node
  386. flow Ahh I guess I see now
  387. flow that is why the second sentence hints towards using max_items=1
  388. lovetox flow you could add a paragraph that says singleton node has to be used
  389. Daniel Even max_items=1 is just a work around for a proper singleton node
  390. flow well from a protocol POV there is no need to use a singleton node
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  392. pep. id="current" etc.?
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  394. Daniel pep.: yes. Plus max items 1 on the node config
  395. lovetox flow either your XEP wants to request a single item
  396. Daniel Not on request
  397. lovetox then it should also enforce singleton node
  398. lovetox or not then you dont need maxitems=1
  399. Daniel I'm not saying the xep is wrong or anything
  400. Daniel Just our best practices have changed
  401. Daniel Wrt to PEP
  402. flow sure, the question is, if older versions of the keyring could be beneficial in some cases
  403. flow I can not answer that, and hence I am a little bit reluctant to specify the singleton node as a must
  404. Daniel Isn't the key supposed to be stripped down?
  405. flow Daniel, could you elaborate on max_items being just a work around for proper singleton nodes?
  406. Daniel So what kind of information would change?
  407. Daniel flow: well one limits the request the other actually let's the server store only one
  408. DebXWoody There is no need to have different versions of the public key.
  409. flow Daniel, right, I say that those are for different use cases
  410. lovetox flow are you aware whata singleton node is in pubsub?
  411. flow lovetox, yes
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  413. Daniel If the intent is to make historic variants of the key available the xep should state that as a feature
  414. Daniel Otherwise it comes of like an accident
  415. lovetox ok, so max-items=1 request always the last item, so why would you have a node that stores unlimited items
  416. lovetox if you always only request one
  417. flow as I said, I do not have an answer if having the history of the pubkey is benefical or not. Hence this part of the XEP is deliberatly designed so that we can experiment with it
  418. lovetox no its not, you looked at other XEPs back at that time and copied what they did
  419. lovetox now its a design decision
  420. lovetox ok :)
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  422. Zash Not sure if it fits this use case, but there's a thing in XEP-0060 about payloadless notifications that could be nice for certain PEP uses. Avatars for example, if it had been designed with that in mind.
  423. Daniel It really doesn't come of as deliberate
  424. Daniel But noted
  425. flow So the XEP saying nothing about singleton nodes but recommending to use max_items=1 when requesting, while I followed the whole OMEMO singleton discussion does not come as deliberate?
  426. Daniel No
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  428. lovetox anyway this discussion is not relevant client side anyway, as a client has to use max_items=1 anyway because we cannot depend that all other clients respect the singleton node
  429. flow I feel a little bit accused, but anyway. I mean the arguments in favor of keeping are not strong, I know, but I also do not see any harm in keeping the history
  430. lovetox its just a server thing to not store unlimited items
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  433. flow sure, I hope servers have a quota mechanism of some sort
  434. Zash There was a brief period after adding support for multiple items in Prosody and before adding limits where it it could store unlimited items.
  435. pep. well not declaring it a singleton node tells clients this can be a list, right? (then I'm not sure why the max_items=1 at all if it's not meant to be a singleton node)
  436. flow pep., because in most cases you want the most recent version of the key
  437. pep. Does max_items=1/singleton have anything to do with this?
  438. pep. (sorry I'm not sure I followed all of the above)
  439. Daniel Can you give an example for when the historic version of the same key is useful?
  440. flow with either of them you get the most recent version
  441. pep. flow, ah so a client can request max_items=1 for the "latest" but the server storing more?
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  443. flow Daniel, no, but can you list all examples and show that none of them benefits from prior data? ;)
  444. flow I mean, I can not right now, and it is not unlikely that there is none
  445. flow But at least in this stage I wouldn't close the door for it
  446. flow And again, I don't see any harm, since servers have incentive to purge old items anyway
  447. pep. There's gonna be an update of 373 at some point anyway, for SCE :p
  448. pep. Or maybe 374 rather(?)
  449. DebXWoody AFAIK, the local Keyring, the keyserver and WKD doesn't provides historic versions of public keys.
  450. flow pep., well actually SCE's design was inspired by what xep373/374 do
  451. pep. flow, I know
  452. Daniel Right. So if you can't give an example for why one would want such a feature and if the feature is not mentioned anywhere then this is the reason that I believe the feature was not deliberate
  453. pep. But now that we have a SCE..
  454. flow Daniel, if I don't know if it is a feature or not, then I would hardly spell it out in the xep
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  456. flow pep., sure, but at the current stage of SCE would switching OX to SCE provide any benefit and justify the version bump?
  457. pep. Might as well bump while there isn't many impls.
  458. flow bumping as soon as there is more than one experimental impl is hard, and we should also bump in batches
  459. flow that is, I would not bump for SCE alone, but if I had to bump, then sure, why not
  460. pep. :/
  461. flow I am not sure why this is disappointing?
  462. flow If we have learned one thing, then it is that version bumps should be taken carefully, and coordinated
  463. pep. Becaue I never get why people fear updates
  464. pep. It's just a thing that happens and we deal with it
  465. flow I don't think I fear updates
  466. flow But the fallout of version bumps can be significant
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  468. flow In fact I am happy to bump, esp. in the 'experimental' stage
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  470. pep. I only know of 2 implementations atm, gajim and DebXWoody's, 373 is not used. I'm not sure what's preventing a bump at all
  471. flow but I would not bump for every "tiny" thing
  472. flow well for one, as of 5 minutes ago, nobody suggested a bump
  473. flow then, the far more important design decission when it comes to OX, is not SCE, but the metadata node split
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  477. flow then, IMHO, the far more important design decission when it comes to OX, is not SCE, but the metadata node split
  478. DebXWoody what is SCE?
  479. pep. 420
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  481. pep. Stuff that 373 does, but not specific to OX
  482. DebXWoody Ok, I saw,.. but forgot :-)
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  486. flow pep., btw, smack has also an OX impl
  487. pep. k
  488. lovetox flow what do you refering to when you talk about a meta data node split
  489. lovetox there is already a metadata node
  490. flow lovetox, right, the question is if we could go instead with payloadless notifications
  491. lovetox i would not classify this as "far more important"
  492. lovetox this was a idea by someone, never impl in any xep and tested
  493. flow well if we could get rid of the split, then it would reduce the complexity of the protocol somewhat
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  495. flow which is always desirable IMHO
  496. lovetox its not complex, we have that split in 20 other xeps
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  498. lovetox completely changing the syntax of how messages are transmitted ( SCE )
  499. flow well that does not mean that we have to continue that pattern if something better is feasible
  500. lovetox that is indeed a big change that should be made rather sooner than later
  501. flow is it really *completely* changing the syntax? IIRC SCE re-uses a lot names from OX
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  505. lovetox it breaks that what i meant, it does not really matter by how much
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  558. DebXWoody Notes I have in mind about OX: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages/OX
  559. Alex hey guys, anyone ready for our member meeting?
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  563. jonas’ is
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  565. Zash !
  566. jonas’ also forgot about it, but I’m still ready!
  567. Alex bangs the gavel
  568. Alex here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-06-02
  569. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  570. Alex as you can see 33 memebrs voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
  571. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  572. Alex new and returning members, you can see all applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q2_2020
  573. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
  574. Alex anyone here who has not voted yet and wants to do so? Membernot is still online. Also accepting votes over other channels
  575. jonas’ Kev, you around?
  576. jonas’ I seem to recall that Kev had issues contacting memberbot
  577. Kev I am. Yes, I wasn't able to vote.
  578. Mikaela has joined
  579. Kev (Because xmpp.org won't S2S with my server)
  580. jonas’ how are you in this MUC then?
  581. Kev How do we actually do voting in person?
  582. Kev Different server.
  583. Alex Kev, you can send me your votes via private message if you want, or email
  584. Kev Memberbot knows me on my personal server, rather than work.
  585. Kev Alex: Or would it be easy to tell memberbot to know me at this address?
  586. Alex Kev, can whitelist also another Jid if you want
  587. Alex Kev, yes
  588. Alex send mme teh Jid and I will add it
  589. Kev There we go.
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  592. Kev gottit?
  593. Alex ya, try now please
  594. Alex restarted the bot, just in case
  595. Kev Done.
  596. Kev Thanks Alex.
  597. Alex 👍
  598. Alex anyone else? Otherwise I start counting
  599. Alex onay, working on the results then
  600. Guus rolls a drum
  601. Zash 🥁️
  602. Kev (Thanks for the ping jonas’ too)
  603. jonas’ Kev, you’re welchome :)
  604. jonas’ Kev, you’re welcome :)
  605. Alex 4) Announcement_of_Voting_Results
  606. Shell has joined
  607. Alex when you reload teh page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-06-02#Announcement_of_Voting_Results you can see the results
  608. Alex all new and returning memebrs were accepted. Congrats to everyone
  609. neshtaxmpp has joined
  610. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
  611. pep. None here
  612. Alex I need to update memberbot for our next voting to mmae sur ethe latest code on master works. Rigt now its throwing exceptions. I may ask for help here from more experiences python folks ;-)
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  616. Alex I think something broke with the update from sleekxmpp
  617. agustin cordero hi
  618. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  619. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  620. Guus Thanks again, Alex.
  621. pep. Thanks Alex
  622. Zash Seconded
  623. moparisthebest thanks Alex!
  624. Alex bangs the gavel
  625. pep. agustin cordero, hi
  626. Alex thanks everyone. Will updatethe lists tomorrow morning and send out mmeeting minutes to the list
  627. Guus My python skills are nonexistent
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  632. Kev Thanks Alex.
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  654. mathieui Thanks Alex
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  681. lovetox i wish i could unsubscribe a thread on the standards list
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  683. jonas’ lovetox, open your sieve filters, match on References/In-Reply-To and discard;
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  685. jonas’ in this case, you probalby want to match on a References header containing DB7PR02MB49561FD17292B534CAE51C60BC8D0@DB7PR02MB4956.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
  686. lovetox filters, yeah such thing exists on my mail client, never needed it until now :D
  687. jonas’ I’m *nearly* surpirsed that kmail doesn’t have a shortcut for creating a filter based on a thread…
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