XSF Discussion - 2020-06-04

  1. Neustradamus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/608#issuecomment-638522416
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  123. MattJ From an iteam perspective Docker would be preferred
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  131. Yagiza Hello!
  132. Yagiza I have a question regarding XEP-0420: Stanza Content Encryption
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  134. Yagiza My client software is plugin-based, so I need to know the way of plugin interaction.
  135. Yagiza Should XEP-420 be implemented as blacklist or whitelist based?
  136. Daniel I think you need both
  137. Daniel a whitelist for the outer elements
  138. Daniel and a blacklist for the inner
  139. Daniel (outer those that were not encrypted. inner those that are)
  140. Daniel when decrypting i mean
  141. Yagiza In the first case I have a list on elements, that should be ignored when encrypting: left in stanza, not moved into encrypted <content /> element.
  142. Daniel yeah I'd do that with a whitelist approach
  143. Daniel you only need elements that the server needs for routing
  144. Daniel meaning message processing hints
  145. Daniel et al
  146. Yagiza In second case we have a list of elements (reported by other plugins), which must be moved from stanza into encrypted <content/> element.
  147. Yagiza Daniel, so, you see the second way is better?
  148. Daniel imho yes
  149. Yagiza Ok, thanx
  150. Daniel i'd encrypt everything but [store, no-copy, …]
  151. Daniel the decrypting side however is more dangerous. that's where you can fuck up and create security issues
  152. Yagiza Daniel, I'm discussing encrypting side right now.
  153. Yagiza Daniel, if we encrypt "everything but..." it's a whitelist approach!
  154. Yagiza Daniel, *blacklist* I mean.
  155. dwd Some elements you want to have outside *and* duplicate inside. XEP-0258, for example.
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  157. dwd Sorry, that's unclear "outisde" versus "inside" the SCE, so unencrypted versus encrypted.
  158. dwd MattJ, Ack.
  159. Yagiza dwd, why may I want to have Security Label both encrypted and unencrypted?
  160. Daniel server needs it for routing. but the recipient also wants to verify
  161. Guus flow I lost my gsoc MUC bookmark, so I'll be lazy and post it here. Can you confirm that we filled out the GSoC 2020 Org payment request form? Google sent out a reminder (I think the reminder went out to every participating org, but I'm not sure).
  162. Zash sign( meta, encrypt( more stuff ) ) ?
  163. Daniel SCE is way more complicated than some people think it is
  164. Daniel and it's really easy to srew up
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  168. dwd Daniel, More fun than that, even - the security label may need to be re-written between policies and things by servers, but you still want the original. Email deals with this by triple-wrapping, but I'm really not sure we'd want to go there.
  169. dwd Zash, And yes, that's halfway to triple wrapping, which is sign[server]{ meta, sign[sender]{ more_meta, encrypt{ data }}}
  170. dwd (If you'll pardon my newly-invented pseudo-syntax)
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  175. flow Guus, yes PSA filled out the form before the deadline :)
  176. Guus 👍
  177. flow Zash> sign( meta, encrypt( more stuff ) ) should probably be sign(normalize(meta), encrypt(more stuff)) and the "problem" is the normalize(meta) part
  178. Zash Mmmmm XML c14n
  179. flow exactly
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  184. flow it's a design decission involving balancing the tradeoff, but I actually think having something as optional experimental feature can't hurt to get some insights about potential issues
  185. flow it's a design decission involving balancing the tradeoff, but I actually think having something sign(normalize(meta), more bytes) as optional experimental feature can't hurt to get some insights about potential issues
  186. flow I think, for example that XML normaliziation is trivial in Java SE, while it may would require another, likely heavy-weight, dependency on Android (if something is available there at all)
  187. flow I think, for example, that XML normaliziation is trivial with Java SE, while it may would require another, likely heavy-weight, dependency on Android (if something is available there at all)
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  194. Yagiza I still wonder, why Message Reactions uses emoji instead of reusing XEP-0107: User Mood?
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  197. flow Yagiza, I guess because that is because its what github, gitlab, etc do
  198. Zash and slack and mattermost and matrix and everything
  199. Yagiza Zash, so, someone's just trying to mimic other IMs and networks instead of improving XMPP?
  200. flow Yagiza, I guess because that is what github, gitlab, etc do
  201. flow Yagiza, that reads like it implies that with mimicing others one can not improve XMPP
  202. flow Yagiza, that reads like it implies that by mimicing others one can not improve XMPP
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  204. Yagiza flow, well... I like XMPP because it's powerful. Other networks are forced to use Emoji, 'cause they don't have such nice things, like User Mood or User Activity. But why should we?
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  206. flow Yagiza, I am not sure which one of using unicode code points or xep user mood as enumeration of possible reactions is "better". both approaches appear to have advantages and disadvantages
  207. Zash Why limit yourself to moods?
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  210. Zash IIRC in Matrix it's just a piece of text. It doesn't have to be emoji, that's just an UI decision
  211. flow Zash, right, but then, on the other side, is it really good that you can react with all types of code points?
  212. Zash Just let me react with "cool" and "!" and I'll be happy
  213. flow e.g. github limits the kind of reactions
  214. Yagiza flow, yes. But I think that advantages of reusing User Mood instead of emoji prevail over disadvantages.
  215. Zash flow, still, I'd leave that as an UI decision
  216. flow Zash, I always wonder how I have to read "!" as reaction? Is it positive? Negative? Danger?
  217. Zash flow, !
  218. Zash How would you read *anything*?
  219. flow Zash, sure, but is that enough? don't you have to be able to negoiate allowed reaction kinds on the protocol level?
  220. Zash Tons of emoji is incredibly ambigous
  221. flow Sure, but not all
  222. Yagiza Zash, 'cause most of emoji are meaningless as reactions to messages. Also, they may lead to confuse, 'cause sender may mean different thing, than receiver may think of.
  223. Zash And there's never one that means what I'm trying to say anyways
  224. flow A thumbs up on a comment can be hardly misinterpreted
  225. Zash Sure it can
  226. flow hmm, ok, care to elaborate how?
  227. Zash No
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  229. Zash Language and communication is complicated.
  230. flow and often not unambiguous in particular
  231. dwd https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/6 -- this is running on memberbot@dave.cridland.net, anyone fancy helping me test? (I'll need the jid you want to test from to add you as an "XSF Member").
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  234. Guus dwd, sure
  235. Guus use mine
  236. Guus guus.der.kinderen at ignite
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  238. dwd Added. You should be able to send it a subscription request and then start voting.
  239. Guus dwd, it acknowledges me, but does not offer things to vote on.
  240. Guus https://igniterealtime.org:443/httpfileupload/680d2838-390d-4d9f-beba-577ecf7dbbbc/image.png
  241. dwd Ah, great, that's a bug.
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  243. dwd Did you add it to your roster? Or just send?
  244. Guus I added to my roster
  245. Guus subscription status 'both'
  246. Zash > error<wait:remote-server-timeout:Server-to-server connection failed: Error during negotiation of encrypted connection: sslv3 alert bad record mac>
  247. Zash The what
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  253. dwd That's exciting.
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  281. pep. > flow> A thumbs up on a comment can be hardly misinterpreted "Somebody should ..". "👍" Do you like what I said? Are you ok with it? Are you gonna do it?
  282. pep. language is complicated
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  286. dwd OK, so, memberbot bug is that here: https://github.com/dwd/memberbot/blob/memberbot-fixes/memberbot/chat_voting.py#L360 slixmpp ends up trying to wrap a future into an IQ and everything breaks.
  287. dwd pep., Does that "supports" call ever work?
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  289. pep. maybe slix broke it, dunno
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  295. dwd OK, that maybe works now. Seems not to break with Inverse anymore at least.
  296. dwd Guus, want to see if that works for you as well now?
  297. Guus dwd: Remind me after lunch please
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  320. Neustradamus dwd: have you seen my PRs?
  321. Guus dwd seems to work now. I got three votes, with (the same) three candidates each.
  322. Neustradamus dwd: You have commented, can you test it?
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  324. Guus I've applied yes, no and abstain - seems to all work as expected.
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  327. Neustradamus I can test the bot?
  328. Neustradamus Note: When I look the vCard, the XSF logo is always the old...
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  367. dwd Neustradamus, You should be able to add memberbot@dave.cridland.net to your roster and vote (it's intentionally the same three candidates).
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  377. ralphm Have a conflicting meeting (again). Can't make it to Board today.
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  380. Guus ralphm: should we think about another time slot?
  381. pep. !
  382. Seve o/
  383. MattJ o/
  384. pep. Especially since the two agenda items I added concern ralph. Well one definitely, the second one all of us
  385. pep. # Welcome
  386. pep. Any other agenda item to add?
  387. pep. I guess we'll leave the two I added for when ralph is present
  388. Guus I have nothing
  389. Seve neither do I
  390. MattJ Nothing here, except a query for whether the commteam have thought any more about their requirements
  391. pep. Even though some commteam members were present last time (Seve, emus), I haven't poked anybody yet
  392. pep. So it's also partly my fault
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  394. pep. (I still need to send minutes for last week even.)
  395. Guus is the outside person waiting for us?
  396. Guus if so, we should try to get some momentum
  397. pep. Seve, maybe as a board and commteam member it'd be better if you did that?
  398. emus Hi
  399. MattJ Guus, yes and no, I don't think we've given a 'no' but we have let her know not to expect an imminent 'yes'
  400. Seve pep., I haven't offered my self to do that because I feel you guys have more context than me on this. As I said didn't know nyco asked for a plan. I would not be good at leading this. I can try to start a conversation in the commteam though, that's for sure.
  401. Guus Let's try and focus on this to get to a conclusion. We have a bad habit of letting things linger to long.
  402. pep. Seve, ok. I'll try to send last time's minutes quickly (to summarize last time's chat) I'll poke commteam :x
  403. Seve pep., very much appreciated!
  404. Guus Seve if only to get more of a conversation started, you approaching commteam members might be good.
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  406. Guus oh, or that. 🙂
  407. pep. I have a question for board, not related to commteam but minutes: I see in other communities / organizations that acknowledging minutes is a thing, is that something that's been done before here? That some would want to do
  408. pep. At the beginning of a meeting these orgs I've seen ask their board (or equivalent) to ack last meeting's minutes
  409. Guus If we do have proper meetings, we should. But, as our minutes are often absent, and we're having a verbatim log of each meeting, I don't really see the point.
  410. pep. So maybe a topic for once we've sorted out the "minutes" problem.
  411. pep. I'm fine with no official answer anyway. I was just curious
  412. MattJ +1
  413. Seve We have the logs, so yes, everyone can confirm the minutes. Although it makes sense to do that.
  414. Guus When meetings are used to record the meeting (and record decisions), we should verify/acknowledge them, I think. I don't think that's how we're currently using the minutes though.
  415. pep. # AOB?
  416. MattJ None here
  417. Guus nor me
  418. pep. Next: +1w
  419. pep. # Close
  420. Guus thanks
  421. Seve Thank you guys
  422. emus pep.: So you could not find time to sunmarize the recent meeting on the hireing topic?
  423. pep. You mean the meeting we've had in the other room? No. I think I'll just include a few lines in minutes I send for last week's board meeting to give some context. I don't think it needs much more
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  425. emus At least I would like to summarize the few points we agree in general on
  426. pep. tbh I don't especially want to be flagged "minute person", I don't like minutes :P
  427. pep. (Well I don't like writing them)
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  433. emus pep.: I dont take it as this, but I thought from the recent one you said you gonna do it
  434. pep. No, I said I wouldn't do it :x
  435. emus Maybe we can make that as a rotation system? Some documenation is important pep.: ok then I try
  436. pep. "I won't do minutes just now. There's lots of things in there". I was planning to wait for a next meeting
  437. emus pep.: Sorry, Im talking about the other chat on hiring only
  438. pep. yes
  439. pep. I'm quoting myself in that chat
  440. pep. I'm quoting myself from that chat
  441. emus Ah okay, I think I got confused. If I can do something or help let me know
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  450. Neustradamus dwd: Thanks, can you add my PRs?
  451. Neustradamus The goal is to test and confirm that it is good: - https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/4 - https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/5
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  480. Daniel can someone enlighten me on the role of MUC in Jitsi? looking at the various parts that make up jitsi there is the jitsi video bridge which takes the role of a SFU and there is the jicofo which is a compontent that you talk COLIBRI to.
  481. Daniel but what role does MUC take here?
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  483. Daniel the jitsi documentation require me to set up a muc server; and also give jicofo admin (owner) rights to that muc server
  484. Daniel but it doesn’t really say what the muc rooms are used for
  485. MattJ The MUC is used for the signaling and chat between conference participants
  486. Daniel ok; chat i get
  487. Daniel but isn’t colibri the signaling?
  488. MattJ (including jicofo AIUI)
  489. Neustradamus It uses Prosody
  490. Daniel i'm essentially wondering (text chat aside) if there is a different set of protocols aside from colibri (which is not muc or message based) that i need to understand
  491. MattJ Not that I'm aware of, not sure if they stick some stuff in presence though
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  493. Daniel so hypotically if i wanted to experiment with video conferencing i'd just need jicofo and the video bridge?
  494. Zash jonas’ did some trickery to get a chat bot into Jitsi conferences iirc
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  496. jonas’ Daniel, I *think* you need to go through a MUC to talk to Jicofo, since it uses the MUC identity
  497. jonas’ but that’s just casual observation from jicofo and jvb logs as well as a bit of MUC traffic
  498. Daniel jonas’, ok thanks. that probably makes some sense in front of the background that jitsi meet is
  499. jonas’ 15:36:40 jonas’> and yeah, weird stuff happens (with Jitsi Meet at least) if you have a participant which doesn’t speak the protocols 15:36:48 jonas’> I had to hide presence to make the web ui not misbehave
  500. jonas’ 15:36:40 jonas’> and yeah, weird stuff happens (with Jitsi Meet at least) if you have a participant which doesn’t speak the protocols 15:36:48 jonas’> I had to hide presence to make the web ui not misbehave
  501. jonas’ (those two messages went into the wrong room initially, sorry)
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  503. !XSF_Martin He, I didn't realize you sent them to the wrong MUC and wondered why you quoted yourself. 😂
  504. Daniel (fwiw i'm not interested in being compatible with jitsi meet the webinterface but just reusing the compontents to make video conferencing happening. or at least understand what that would entail)
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  506. jonas’ Daniel, I recommend setting up Jitsi Meet first to get a feeling on how intertwined it all is
  507. jonas’ everything is extremely picky about everything
  508. !XSF_Martin Daniel: So you consider adding a/v conferences to conversations?
  509. Daniel no
  510. Daniel i'm trying to understand how that would work
  511. MattJ When will it be ready?
  512. Guus COIN and Colibiri are two XEPs they use, I think
  513. Guus As Jonas said, they add an occupant to the muc (nicknamed 'focus') that is used for signalling.
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  515. !XSF_Martin > When will it be ready? Yesterday would be a good date, otherwise xmpp is UNUSABLE!!!1!
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  517. Daniel Guus, neither COIN nor colibri mention MUC though
  518. Daniel so that was kinda the missing piece that i needed to understand all that
  519. Guus You can join the MUC through XMPP for chat, but in Openfire, we decided against that. It offers very disturbing user experience, as there's then a set of occupants that only chat, and a set of occupants that both chat, but also have a video conference in which communication takes place.
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  522. Guus It's technically entirely possible though (or at least it was in the state of the code ~2 years ago, when I last looked)
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  526. Guus got to feed the kids. later
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  534. MattJ https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/chats/how-to-format-your-messages/ :)
  535. MattJ curl !$ > xep-xxxx.xml
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  541. Zash MattJ: pandoc !$ -o modernxmpp/how-to-format-your-messages.md
  542. Daniel > https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/chats/how-to-format-your-messages/ :) Isn't that literally what we are doing?
  543. MattJ Yep, pretty much
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  545. !XSF_Martin Maybe they thought adding that xep would be *fun*.
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  561. Seve Doesn't mean it is a good example :)
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  727. lbocquet What do you think if we change the name of https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:XMPP_logo.svg to XSF_logo.svg? And add XMPP_logo.svg without XMPP text?
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  729. pep. lbocquet, why? I don't think the XSF has a logo. And XMPP is no property of the XSF, it's an IETF standard
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  743. lbocquet How we can publish the logo with text and without?
  744. lbocquet I have seen XSF_logo.svg (which is not good) without XMPP text...
  745. lbocquet The XMPP_logo.svg has MIT licence and it is "Copyright © XMPP Standards Foundation"
  746. lbocquet The XMPP_logo.svg has MIT license and it is "Copyright © XMPP Standards Foundation"
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  758. pep. So the XSF has copyrights for the XMPP logo, that doesn't make it the XSF logo :)
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