XSF Discussion - 2020-06-05


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  4. Neustradamus Ge0rG: Where is the last official Yaxim .SVG icon? (cc rion)
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  87. Ge0rG rion: Neustradamus: https://github.com/yaxim-org/yaxim/blob/master/asset-graphics/yak/yak-front-grass.svg
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  196. Guus FMUC wise, how can the state of federation be reflected to users in the chat? Currently the only way as a user to tell if you've lost federation is that you see people leave the chat, it seems?
  197. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0310.xml mayhaps?
  198. Guus Thanks. A quick reading does not make me confident that I get its meaning, but it seems at least partially related.
  199. Guus Will look into it further
  200. lovetox Guus, i would say a user does not need to know that
  201. Guus lovetox: why is that?
  202. lovetox because its nothing that should happen regulary, its a technical detail of the protocol and infrastructur
  203. lovetox you dont get a whatsapp message when one of their server goes offline for a minute
  204. lovetox service is not working, i guess the user will notice that if he cant see any people in a MUC anymore
  205. lovetox thats all he needs to know, and bug his admin afterwards
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  208. Kev I think you're making assumptions there about the nature of the deploymen.
  209. Kev I think you're making assumptions there about the nature of the deployment.
  210. Kev FMUC is typically deployed places where it is something that may happen frequently, and that the users may well want to know.
  211. Kev Guus: From memory, we exit the users from the room with a show saying why.
  212. Guus What Kev said, and: thanks Kev.
  213. Kev I don't *think* we inject a system message at the same time, but I might misremember that bit.
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  216. Guus I am compiling a rather long text of XEP feedback - not very structured at the moment, but I guess I should post it somewhere
  217. Kev I've had a TODO to look at FMUC for ages, but as no-one else was implementing it it dropped way down my list.
  218. Kev Sorry Guus.
  219. Guus No worries, that's only to be expected.
  220. Guus I'm grateful for the feedback you've been giving me recently
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  239. jonas’ classic IRC netsplit
  240. jonas’ lovetox, it happens "all the time" on IRC
  241. jonas’ and I’m not sure if FMUC can replay history, in which case you’d very well need to know what’s goin gon
  242. jonas’ and I’m not sure if FMUC can replay history, in which case you’d very well need to know what’s going on
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  301. Guus The history sync is awkward. I haven't figured that out in our implementation.
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  311. Zash MUC-to-MUC MAM?
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  318. Holger Matrix.
  319. Zash Not until start trying to merge those histories
  320. Holger Matrix in broken.
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  344. Kev Guus: Is it that tricky? It's mostly the same as client history.
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  346. Guus Kev: which I've never implemented myself either. 😁
  347. Zash Kev: Gets tricky if there's history on both sides that the other doesn't have?
  348. Guus What I wonder about is injection history mid-session, when a room with existing history and ongoing chat suddenly needs to interweave history from another source that joined.
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  356. DebXWoody Here little bit feedback / remarks / question for XMPP-OX: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages/OX
  357. lovetox DebXWoody, after reading that my motiviation to implement OX is near zero
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  359. moparisthebest so you are saying there is a chance? >:)
  360. lovetox i tell you what i implement
  361. lovetox - Client generates Key, user can't bring his own - Key has no password - There is only one public key accepted per contact, and the only source of it is PEP
  362. flow DebXWoody, read it, pubsub get will get you the latest published item on a node, which is the latest version of the key
  363. lovetox Is it possible with pgp to change the expiry date on a key without changing the fingerprint?
  364. flow yes
  365. DebXWoody yes
  366. lovetox how does that work?! surley it has to be protected someway
  367. flow lovetox, it's a signed packet added to the keyring
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  369. lovetox signed by who?
  370. flow signed by the master key
  371. lovetox and who signes the expiry date of the master key
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  373. lovetox or does the key i generate sign the packet itself
  374. flow basically yes
  375. lovetox Ok, yeah then let me add to that list - No expiry date on keys
  376. flow yes expiries are typical not useful for the average user
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  379. lovetox i like OX i think its less complicated than OMEMO and i dont really need the benefits of OMEMO
  380. flow depends
  381. DebXWoody lovetox, why near zero? I know what has been implemented (at least a little bit). I think your approach is not wrong. I see some pros on your implementation, but also some cons.
  382. flow openpgp provides a lot of freedom
  383. lovetox but i fear that people go into that with their own ideas how openpgp in xmpp should work
  384. lovetox and the XEP basically lets many things open
  385. flow and it could happen that OX is grated by different opinions which try to move it toward their choice
  386. lovetox and i fear this will make it not interoperable
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  388. flow which would be sad, because I think the existing openpgp ecosystem shows that it is interoperable while allowing a high degree of freedom
  389. lovetox flow only if you have a client that supports all the freedom
  390. flow no I don't think so
  391. lovetox which makes it less likely to implement
  392. flow MUAs shows that this is possible
  393. DebXWoody lovetox, I think we should fine a mix of it, this is the reason why I started this wiki page. I would like to use XMPP with my Nitrokey, this is basically the reason why I prefer to use my own keyring also.
  394. lovetox MUAs? whats that
  395. flow mail clients
  396. lovetox For me OX has to be implemented in a way that it is as invisible and easy to use as OMEMO
  397. DebXWoody yes
  398. flow sure
  399. lovetox yeah but that rules some things out for me that people that use PGP do daily
  400. flow probably, but does that mean that your code will not be able to exchange openpgp secured messages with those people?
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  404. lovetox - typing in a password daily to unlock the key - depending on PGP trust states (not sure about that but my feeling is i want to have my own trustmanagement rather than what pgp offers)
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  406. flow please completely ignore the web of trust
  407. flow its nonsense
  408. flow its nonsenses
  409. flow its nonsense
  410. lovetox its not about sending messages flow, its about sharing your secret key with other devices
  411. flow so you want a dedidcated key for xmpp? that's fine
  412. flow keyring even
  413. lovetox there are the people that want to use their own key and dont trust the application (hence want to use stuff like PGP Agent)
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  416. lovetox and this needs totally different development approach
  417. flow sure, those are then probably users that will not be happy with your implementation, if it does not allow for it
  418. lovetox yeah but that also means, if some clients support this, some not
  419. lovetox they cannot work together
  420. flow why not?
  421. DebXWoody This is why I would like to talk about it.
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  423. flow we maybe first have to define "this", but…
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  425. lovetox because when you put a password on your key, and i have no GUI where you can put in that passwod, that means you cannot use both clients with the same account
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  427. flow lovetox, how does your no password approach work with multiple devices?
  428. DebXWoody lovetox, I think pinentry will do it.
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  430. lovetox i dont undestand the question flow
  431. lovetox how is multiple device related to a password
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  434. flow lovetox, do you want to support multiple devices?
  435. lovetox of course
  436. flow lovetox, how does the onboarding work with your no password approach?
  437. flow how does a new device get a hold of the secret key material?
  438. lovetox are you talking about your AES backup code?
  439. lovetox AES encrypted secret key in the PEP node
  440. lovetox ?
  441. lovetox im not talking about that, that is fine
  442. flow ok, but then where is the problem?
  443. lovetox but maybe you remember, you can put a password on a PGP key on creation, and then i have to additionally encrypt it with AES
  444. flow if you want to store the key material unencrypted locally, that is your choice
  445. flow (as developer)
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  447. flow how an openpgp implementation obtains the secret key material is outside the scope of OX and OpenPGP
  448. flow so I don't see how this could cause that some clients are not able to work together
  449. flow I see other potential issues maybe
  450. flow but not htis
  451. flow but not this
  452. lovetox how is that out of scope, if you describe in your XEP how the secret key is obtained and even how it has to be encrypted
  453. flow that is only to fetch the secret key material if you don't have it
  454. flow but once you have it, you would usually store it locally
  455. DebXWoody I think this is not fully clearly defined.
  456. lovetox ok so if you dont describe this, and i assume all material that i decrypt is not additional secured, and other implementation dont assume that and create only passworded keys
  457. lovetox then both clients are incompatible
  458. lovetox regarding secret key sharing
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  461. flow now you have really confused me
  462. flow if the secret key material is shared via the PEP node as specified in xep373 § 5.4, then I'd argue it is clear for the implementations how the data should look like, and especially that it must be encrypted
  463. flow storing unencrypted openpgp secret key material in a PEP node would be not ideal
  464. lovetox yes obvious
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  466. lovetox but implementing this yields not necessarily a useable key
  467. flow and why is that?
  468. lovetox because PGP keys can be password protected
  469. flow yes, but the transferable key format (rfc4880 § 11.2) is unencrypted, and that is what xep373 § 5.4 specifies
  470. flow would be pretty silly to have another potential encryption layer here
  471. flow would be pretty silly to have another *optional* encryption layer here
  472. lovetox ahh i didnt know that
  473. flow glad we could clarify that :)
  474. lovetox this is another problem with the XEP for me, you refering to openpgp rfcs its fine, but you should add examples how one can get these transferable formats from gpg
  475. lovetox i think we can assume nobody that implement OX will write its own rfc4880 implementation
  476. flow hopefully not, but you need to knowledge about the used building blocks
  477. flow hopefully not, but you need some knowledge about the used building blocks
  478. flow btw, I would recommend using sequoia pgp instead of gpg
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  481. DebXWoody flow, "please completely ignore the web of trust" why?
  482. pep. Well that's up to the client, and I don't think it actually impacts how it's used on XMPP at all.
  483. pep. As long as some more technical users don't force that on others for no reason
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  486. pep. DebXWoody, it's also just possible for a client to use a freshly created keyring just for XMPP usage, and then a tech user can sign that key with their own if they really want to
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  489. pep. It makes it easier for the client because it can use its own assumptions and doesn't have to plan for every all the various differences they can find in the real world
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  491. pep. It makes it easier for the client because it can use its own assumptions and doesn't have to plan for all the various differences they can find in the real world
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  494. lovetox flow, how do you get from https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880#section-11.2
  495. lovetox that this is unencrypted?
  496. DebXWoody pep.: To sign a fresh key with a own key will not help to use for instance a OpenPGP SmartCard.
  497. pep. DebXWoody, that might be a nice feature but then you're kinda condemning the account to use a key per device
  498. pep. Or .. a key for the account and then a specific key for that device. Not sure how that would work
  499. lovetox flow further, i looked up the manual of gnupg, it lets me export the key in multiple formats PKCS#1, PKCS#8
  500. lovetox none of the documentation refers to rfc4880 11.2
  501. pep. DebXWoody, probably something to think about anyway. How to reconcile all these various use-cases..
  502. pep. (or not, but signal it somehow)
  503. lovetox i doubt 11.2 says anything about if it should be encrypted or not
  504. lovetox it just states some packet order, one of the packets is the secret key packet, and it does not say what that packet should contain
  505. lovetox and if a secret key is ecnrypted or not, is defined inside the secret key packet
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  508. DebXWoody I can just say what I prefer, but this depends on the user. I think we should try to keep it open. I generate 2 keys. One key is a CA key, one key is my personal key. The CA has been generated on a Smartcard, no backup. My personal key has been moved on a Smartcard for the Desktop and on a Nitrokey for Laptop (an Smartphone). The CA will be used to sign my keys and all friends. The personal is for daily use. Anyway, I will try to write some more information.
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  514. DebXWoody Anyway, I was able to send a message to gajim. It's 50% :-D
  515. lovetox DebXWoody, drop me a message if you need help debuging when something does not work
  516. DebXWoody thx
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  592. pep. It's possible to have one set of identifiers (login/passwd) and multiple Jids right?
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  594. pep. Something SASL authz? (just handwaving words I don't really understand)
  595. Zash Sort of
  596. pep. I know, the next question is gonna be "what do I want", not entirely sure myself. For now I'm trying to see if it's possible to have just one account and multiple identities
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  600. pep. Also anybody implemented burner jids yet?
  601. pep. I'm curious if they can be reused. This requirement suggests they might: "As the author of a social website I want to allow users to create ephemeral identities which can be used to contact them even if they have not granted access to their personal information."
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  615. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#createroom-reserved what on earth is a reversed room
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