lovetoxpep., i think its in comparison to instant room
lovetoxreserved means, you send a join presence, but then the room is not open for other people
lovetoxits reserved for you until you finish the configuration
lovetoxonly afterwards the room is unlocked
lovetoxin comparison to instant room, where you send a join presence, and the room is instantly unlocked
lovetoxmeans in the time you need to finish the configuration, nobody else can come and take the room from you :)
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pep.ah reserved not reversed.
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larmaAccording to introduction of XEP-0249, it is useful because of privacy lists (XEP-0016) which is deprecated by now. Shouldn't XEP-0249 be deprecated then as well?
lovetoxlarma, 0016 is not the only way to block contacts not in your roster
pep.Well the effect that privacy lists had on MUC invites hasn't gone is it. There are still people blocking messages from strangers as of today
lovetoxits only one of them
ZashXEP-0191 or anti-spam mechanisms could get in the way
pep.Maybe that can be reworded
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larmaZash, I'd say that if you 191 block a muc domain or muc, you don't want to receive invites to it
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ZashMakes sense
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lovetoxnot really
lovetoxits not about blocking a muc domain
larmaalso you don't add mucs to your roster (typically) so if you can't receive the invite, how would you receive the messages?
lovetox191 has a default blocking option
lovetoxof contacts not in your roster
ZashDoes it?
lovetoxall MUCs are not in your roster
ZashI don't see any default, wasn't that one of the things you could do with 0016 that doesn't have an equivalent yet?
larmaI don't see 191 having a feature "block everything not from roster"
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lovetoxhm, damn i think i mixed that up with mam preferneces
larmaand then again, if the MUC mediated invite is blocked, muc messages itself are blocked as well
ZashThere are server plugins that blocks everything from non-contacts tho
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lovetoxlarma, a direct invite is not send by the MUC
larmalovetox, sure, wasn't taling about direct invite
lovetoxyou have contact in your roster
lovetoxyou want to invite him to a muc
ZashThat kind of blocking isn't great tho, for reasons like this.
lovetoxhow would you do it if there is no direct invite?
larmaHow would you do it with direct invite? If you receive a direct invite but have the MUC blocked, you can't join it.
lovetoxwhy would the MUC be blocked?
lovetoxthere is a simple option in most clients and servers
lovetoxblock contacts that are not in your roster
lovetoxthat does not mean the jids are added to a block list
lovetoxthat just means messages are not routed
lovetoxi can receive a message from you, because you are in my roster
lovetoxi cant from the MUC
larmathe MUC is not in your roster, so you wouldn't receive messages from a MUC if you block messages from JIDs not in the roster
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lovetoxit seems you dont know how this feature works
larma*i am not talking about direct invite*
lovetoxobviously the server starts routing messages once i sent a presence to the MUC
Zashlarma: What you say makes sense.
lovetoxand your client routes messages once you sent out a join presence
larmalovetox, that's not obvious to me at all. Why would sending a presence change the blocking behavior?
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lovetoxbecause then the user made a decision to join a groupchat, obviously he wants to receive messages
Zashlarma: Directed presence may be used in the same way as roster entries, in theory.
larmaSo the rule is not "block message from JIDs not on roster" but "block message from JIDs not on roster or where you didn't send a presence to the bare jid since the session started"?
larmaZash, well roster entries are per bare jid, presences are per session?
lovetoxyes thats how servers and clients would implement a "block contact not in your roster" option
Zashlarma: True, which is why I said 'in theory'. :)
larmalovetox, "would implement" - which server does implement that?
lovetoxand yes larma its not perfect there are surely edge cases where this does not work as intended
lovetoxbut its better than getting spammed every day
lovetoxejabberd for example last i heard
lovetoxdid not try it though
lovetoxthey have a captcha challenge also
larmaspam blocking and privacy lists/blocking commands are obviously different features
lovetoxGajim has this option also implemented client side
lovetoxand i think C has this also?
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larmalovetox, sure and client side blocking can see that the mediated invite is from a contact
Zashlarma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still.
lovetoxhm
larmaZash, because servers have non-standard behavior that doesn't cope with mediated invites
lovetoxhow would the real jid end up in the mediated invite?
larmaTrue, but that's also easy to find out by disco'ing the from jid of the mediated invite message
lovetoxi wonder if the server always puts in the real jid
ZashAnother thing: In the case of a public channel, there's no real need for the MUC to mediate the invite, so direct invite is simpler.
lovetoxbut yes this would work client side
larmaZash, yeah, might be true
lskdjf> larma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still.
Zash right now, 0249 is in the compliance suite. and I think that's a too vague reason to keep it there... (just to remember for the next iteration of the compliance suites)
larmaZash, although honestly I mostly use invites in non-public rooms. If I invite people in a public room, I usually do this using a normal message with xmpp:-uri 😉
lovetoxbut why are you looking into this larma ? do you want to get rid of direct invites in your code?
Zashlarma: Heh, tho that touches on the whole stuffing semantics into <body> issue :/
larmalovetox, I'd like that longterm we focus on one type of invites instead of having two
larmawould also be fine to go with direct invite only (although that means more work for members-only MUCs)
ZashWhat does the current Compliance Suite author, Ge0rG, think?
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lovetoxlarma, with direct invite only you can only invite people you know the real jid
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larmalovetox, you mean with mediated invite only?
lovetoxhm
lovetoxno, can i send a direct invite as PM?
lovetoxi remeber i could invite people from a anonymous muc to another muc
Zashxmpp:-uri passes there too
lovetoxah no you cant
lovetoxdirect invite have to be type=normal i think
lovetoxthats why you can only reach real-jids
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ZashDoesn't say that tho, just no type attr in the example
lovetox.. wait i have to look up my code
lovetoxthere was definitly something type=normal
lovetoxah no it was the mediated invite that MUST be type=normal
lovetoxagain i mixed things up
lovetoxsorry
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lovetoxso i could do a Invite PM to a anonymous room participant
lovetoxwith direct invite
lovetoxhm what about if you are not admin, and cant add people to the member list
lovetoxbut the muc lets you invite people
lovetoxthen you have to use mediated invites
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larmalovetox, true, but also very weird setup if I can invite but not add to member list
lovetoxnot that weird, only because i want people to be able to invite other people
lovetoxdoes not mean i want them to change the MUC configuration
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lovetoxalso members can never add to the member list
lovetoxso how are you making all people that join to admin?
lovetoxmanually on invite?
lovetoxbut i have no real eperience with members only rooms, how do whatsapp groups work?
Zashwith mediated invites the muc can make the invitee member when an existing member invites someone
lovetoxcan everybody invite everybody in a whatsapp group?
lovetoxyes Zash, but i need him to be admin
Zashhuh why?
Zashwho?
lovetoxhm wait
lovetoxi think we are thinking of only having direct invites
ZashWith mediated invites, the MUC can decide who's allowed to invite others
lovetoxif i have only direct invite, i need to add the member to the member list
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lovetoxhence i need to be admin
ZashYes, that's a problem with direct invites.
lovetoxif i want that other people i invite, can also invite other people, again i have to make them admin
ZashDon't you need to be owner even?
lovetoxto make someone admin
lovetoxyes indeed
lovetoxso i need to make everyone owner ..
lovetoxso we can just throw roles out of the window
ZashI'm not sure where you are going with this
lovetoxin a world without direct invite, if i want that people i invite can invite other people within a member only room
lovetoxi have to make all of them owner
lovetoxah *without mediated invite i meant
larmaHowever, mediated invites do not allow me as a recipient to verify the original sender
larmaSo mediated invites are crap, but the only thing we have for members-only-not-everyone-owner rooms
ZashSend both \o/
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Zashlarma: I think there's been loose talk of having an invite token that you get from the MUC and send to someone, who uses it when joining.
ZashAnd suddenly there's 3 ways to send an invite! :D
ZashComedy comes in threes, or what's the saying
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larmaCan we make a new XEP that allows members to add others to members list without sending an invite and without being admin? Then we can do send both as a fallback until all servers allow members to add other members...
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jonas’do Editor Team members need to be XSF members?