reserved means, you send a join presence, but then the room is not open for other people
lovetox
its reserved for you until you finish the configuration
lovetox
only afterwards the room is unlocked
lovetox
in comparison to instant room, where you send a join presence, and the room is instantly unlocked
lovetox
means in the time you need to finish the configuration, nobody else can come and take the room from you :)
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pep.
ah reserved not reversed.
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larma
According to introduction of XEP-0249, it is useful because of privacy lists (XEP-0016) which is deprecated by now. Shouldn't XEP-0249 be deprecated then as well?
lovetox
larma, 0016 is not the only way to block contacts not in your roster
pep.
Well the effect that privacy lists had on MUC invites hasn't gone is it. There are still people blocking messages from strangers as of today
lovetox
its only one of them
Zash
XEP-0191 or anti-spam mechanisms could get in the way
pep.
Maybe that can be reworded
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larma
Zash, I'd say that if you 191 block a muc domain or muc, you don't want to receive invites to it
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Zash
Makes sense
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lovetox
not really
lovetox
its not about blocking a muc domain
larma
also you don't add mucs to your roster (typically) so if you can't receive the invite, how would you receive the messages?
lovetox
191 has a default blocking option
lovetox
of contacts not in your roster
Zash
Does it?
lovetox
all MUCs are not in your roster
Zash
I don't see any default, wasn't that one of the things you could do with 0016 that doesn't have an equivalent yet?
larma
I don't see 191 having a feature "block everything not from roster"
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lovetox
hm, damn i think i mixed that up with mam preferneces
larma
and then again, if the MUC mediated invite is blocked, muc messages itself are blocked as well
Zash
There are server plugins that blocks everything from non-contacts tho
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lovetox
larma, a direct invite is not send by the MUC
larma
lovetox, sure, wasn't taling about direct invite
lovetox
you have contact in your roster
lovetox
you want to invite him to a muc
Zash
That kind of blocking isn't great tho, for reasons like this.
lovetox
how would you do it if there is no direct invite?
larma
How would you do it with direct invite? If you receive a direct invite but have the MUC blocked, you can't join it.
lovetox
why would the MUC be blocked?
lovetox
there is a simple option in most clients and servers
lovetox
block contacts that are not in your roster
lovetox
that does not mean the jids are added to a block list
lovetox
that just means messages are not routed
lovetox
i can receive a message from you, because you are in my roster
lovetox
i cant from the MUC
larma
the MUC is not in your roster, so you wouldn't receive messages from a MUC if you block messages from JIDs not in the roster
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lovetox
it seems you dont know how this feature works
larma
*i am not talking about direct invite*
lovetox
obviously the server starts routing messages once i sent a presence to the MUC
Zash
larma: What you say makes sense.
lovetox
and your client routes messages once you sent out a join presence
larma
lovetox, that's not obvious to me at all. Why would sending a presence change the blocking behavior?
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lovetox
because then the user made a decision to join a groupchat, obviously he wants to receive messages
Zash
larma: Directed presence may be used in the same way as roster entries, in theory.
larma
So the rule is not "block message from JIDs not on roster" but "block message from JIDs not on roster or where you didn't send a presence to the bare jid since the session started"?
larma
Zash, well roster entries are per bare jid, presences are per session?
lovetox
yes thats how servers and clients would implement a "block contact not in your roster" option
Zash
larma: True, which is why I said 'in theory'. :)
larma
lovetox, "would implement" - which server does implement that?
lovetox
and yes larma its not perfect there are surely edge cases where this does not work as intended
lovetox
but its better than getting spammed every day
lovetox
ejabberd for example last i heard
lovetox
did not try it though
lovetox
they have a captcha challenge also
larma
spam blocking and privacy lists/blocking commands are obviously different features
lovetox
Gajim has this option also implemented client side
lovetox
and i think C has this also?
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larma
lovetox, sure and client side blocking can see that the mediated invite is from a contact
Zash
larma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still.
lovetox
hm
larma
Zash, because servers have non-standard behavior that doesn't cope with mediated invites
lovetox
how would the real jid end up in the mediated invite?
True, but that's also easy to find out by disco'ing the from jid of the mediated invite message
lovetox
i wonder if the server always puts in the real jid
Zash
Another thing: In the case of a public channel, there's no real need for the MUC to mediate the invite, so direct invite is simpler.
lovetox
but yes this would work client side
larma
Zash, yeah, might be true
lskdjf
> larma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still.
Zash right now, 0249 is in the compliance suite. and I think that's a too vague reason to keep it there... (just to remember for the next iteration of the compliance suites)
larma
Zash, although honestly I mostly use invites in non-public rooms. If I invite people in a public room, I usually do this using a normal message with xmpp:-uri 😉
lovetox
but why are you looking into this larma ? do you want to get rid of direct invites in your code?
Zash
larma: Heh, tho that touches on the whole stuffing semantics into <body> issue :/
larma
lovetox, I'd like that longterm we focus on one type of invites instead of having two
larma
would also be fine to go with direct invite only (although that means more work for members-only MUCs)
Zash
What does the current Compliance Suite author, Ge0rG, think?
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lovetox
larma, with direct invite only you can only invite people you know the real jid
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larma
lovetox, you mean with mediated invite only?
lovetox
hm
lovetox
no, can i send a direct invite as PM?
lovetox
i remeber i could invite people from a anonymous muc to another muc
Zash
xmpp:-uri passes there too
lovetox
ah no you cant
lovetox
direct invite have to be type=normal i think
lovetox
thats why you can only reach real-jids
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Zash
Doesn't say that tho, just no type attr in the example
lovetox
.. wait i have to look up my code
lovetox
there was definitly something type=normal
lovetox
ah no it was the mediated invite that MUST be type=normal
lovetox
again i mixed things up
lovetox
sorry
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lovetox
so i could do a Invite PM to a anonymous room participant
lovetox
with direct invite
lovetox
hm what about if you are not admin, and cant add people to the member list
lovetox
but the muc lets you invite people
lovetox
then you have to use mediated invites
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larma
lovetox, true, but also very weird setup if I can invite but not add to member list
lovetox
not that weird, only because i want people to be able to invite other people
lovetox
does not mean i want them to change the MUC configuration
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lovetox
also members can never add to the member list
lovetox
so how are you making all people that join to admin?
lovetox
manually on invite?
lovetox
but i have no real eperience with members only rooms, how do whatsapp groups work?
Zash
with mediated invites the muc can make the invitee member when an existing member invites someone
lovetox
can everybody invite everybody in a whatsapp group?
lovetox
yes Zash, but i need him to be admin
Zash
huh why?
Zash
who?
lovetox
hm wait
lovetox
i think we are thinking of only having direct invites
Zash
With mediated invites, the MUC can decide who's allowed to invite others
lovetox
if i have only direct invite, i need to add the member to the member list
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lovetox
hence i need to be admin
Zash
Yes, that's a problem with direct invites.
lovetox
if i want that other people i invite, can also invite other people, again i have to make them admin
Zash
Don't you need to be owner even?
lovetox
to make someone admin
lovetox
yes indeed
lovetox
so i need to make everyone owner ..
lovetox
so we can just throw roles out of the window
Zash
I'm not sure where you are going with this
lovetox
in a world without direct invite, if i want that people i invite can invite other people within a member only room
lovetox
i have to make all of them owner
lovetox
ah *without mediated invite i meant
larma
However, mediated invites do not allow me as a recipient to verify the original sender
larma
So mediated invites are crap, but the only thing we have for members-only-not-everyone-owner rooms
Zash
Send both \o/
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Zash
larma: I think there's been loose talk of having an invite token that you get from the MUC and send to someone, who uses it when joining.
Zash
And suddenly there's 3 ways to send an invite! :D
Zash
Comedy comes in threes, or what's the saying
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larma
Can we make a new XEP that allows members to add others to members list without sending an invite and without being admin? Then we can do send both as a fallback until all servers allow members to add other members...