XSF Discussion - 2020-06-06

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  71. lovetox

    pep., i think its in comparison to instant room

  72. lovetox

    reserved means, you send a join presence, but then the room is not open for other people

  73. lovetox

    its reserved for you until you finish the configuration

  74. lovetox

    only afterwards the room is unlocked

  75. lovetox

    in comparison to instant room, where you send a join presence, and the room is instantly unlocked

  76. lovetox

    means in the time you need to finish the configuration, nobody else can come and take the room from you :)

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  199. pep.

    ah reserved not reversed.

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  247. larma

    According to introduction of XEP-0249, it is useful because of privacy lists (XEP-0016) which is deprecated by now. Shouldn't XEP-0249 be deprecated then as well?

  248. lovetox

    larma, 0016 is not the only way to block contacts not in your roster

  249. pep.

    Well the effect that privacy lists had on MUC invites hasn't gone is it. There are still people blocking messages from strangers as of today

  250. lovetox

    its only one of them

  251. Zash

    XEP-0191 or anti-spam mechanisms could get in the way

  252. pep.

    Maybe that can be reworded

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  254. larma

    Zash, I'd say that if you 191 block a muc domain or muc, you don't want to receive invites to it

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  256. Zash

    Makes sense

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  258. lovetox

    not really

  259. lovetox

    its not about blocking a muc domain

  260. larma

    also you don't add mucs to your roster (typically) so if you can't receive the invite, how would you receive the messages?

  261. lovetox

    191 has a default blocking option

  262. lovetox

    of contacts not in your roster

  263. Zash

    Does it?

  264. lovetox

    all MUCs are not in your roster

  265. Zash

    I don't see any default, wasn't that one of the things you could do with 0016 that doesn't have an equivalent yet?

  266. larma

    I don't see 191 having a feature "block everything not from roster"

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  269. lovetox

    hm, damn i think i mixed that up with mam preferneces

  270. larma

    and then again, if the MUC mediated invite is blocked, muc messages itself are blocked as well

  271. Zash

    There are server plugins that blocks everything from non-contacts tho

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  273. lovetox

    larma, a direct invite is not send by the MUC

  274. larma

    lovetox, sure, wasn't taling about direct invite

  275. lovetox

    you have contact in your roster

  276. lovetox

    you want to invite him to a muc

  277. Zash

    That kind of blocking isn't great tho, for reasons like this.

  278. lovetox

    how would you do it if there is no direct invite?

  279. larma

    How would you do it with direct invite? If you receive a direct invite but have the MUC blocked, you can't join it.

  280. lovetox

    why would the MUC be blocked?

  281. lovetox

    there is a simple option in most clients and servers

  282. lovetox

    block contacts that are not in your roster

  283. lovetox

    that does not mean the jids are added to a block list

  284. lovetox

    that just means messages are not routed

  285. lovetox

    i can receive a message from you, because you are in my roster

  286. lovetox

    i cant from the MUC

  287. larma

    the MUC is not in your roster, so you wouldn't receive messages from a MUC if you block messages from JIDs not in the roster

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  289. lovetox

    it seems you dont know how this feature works

  290. larma

    *i am not talking about direct invite*

  291. lovetox

    obviously the server starts routing messages once i sent a presence to the MUC

  292. Zash

    larma: What you say makes sense.

  293. lovetox

    and your client routes messages once you sent out a join presence

  294. larma

    lovetox, that's not obvious to me at all. Why would sending a presence change the blocking behavior?

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  296. lovetox

    because then the user made a decision to join a groupchat, obviously he wants to receive messages

  297. Zash

    larma: Directed presence may be used in the same way as roster entries, in theory.

  298. larma

    So the rule is not "block message from JIDs not on roster" but "block message from JIDs not on roster or where you didn't send a presence to the bare jid since the session started"?

  299. larma

    Zash, well roster entries are per bare jid, presences are per session?

  300. lovetox

    yes thats how servers and clients would implement a "block contact not in your roster" option

  301. Zash

    larma: True, which is why I said 'in theory'. :)

  302. larma

    lovetox, "would implement" - which server does implement that?

  303. lovetox

    and yes larma its not perfect there are surely edge cases where this does not work as intended

  304. lovetox

    but its better than getting spammed every day

  305. lovetox

    ejabberd for example last i heard

  306. lovetox

    did not try it though

  307. lovetox

    they have a captcha challenge also

  308. larma

    spam blocking and privacy lists/blocking commands are obviously different features

  309. lovetox

    Gajim has this option also implemented client side

  310. lovetox

    and i think C has this also?

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  312. larma

    lovetox, sure and client side blocking can see that the mediated invite is from a contact

  313. Zash

    larma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still.

  314. lovetox


  315. larma

    Zash, because servers have non-standard behavior that doesn't cope with mediated invites

  316. lovetox

    how would the real jid end up in the mediated invite?

  317. lovetox

    do i have to put it there?

  318. larma

    lovetox, it does, no?

  319. lovetox


  320. Zash

    larma: and overzealous anti-spam mechanisms

  321. larma


  322. larma

    invite from=real-jid

  323. lovetox

    larma but is this validated?

  324. lovetox

    can i not put any jid in there?

  325. larma

    the server puts it there

  326. larma

    the muc server

  327. Zash

    Assuming a MUC server sent it

  328. larma

    True, but that's also easy to find out by disco'ing the from jid of the mediated invite message

  329. lovetox

    i wonder if the server always puts in the real jid

  330. Zash

    Another thing: In the case of a public channel, there's no real need for the MUC to mediate the invite, so direct invite is simpler.

  331. lovetox

    but yes this would work client side

  332. larma

    Zash, yeah, might be true

  333. lskdjf

    > larma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still. Zash right now, 0249 is in the compliance suite. and I think that's a too vague reason to keep it there... (just to remember for the next iteration of the compliance suites)

  334. larma

    Zash, although honestly I mostly use invites in non-public rooms. If I invite people in a public room, I usually do this using a normal message with xmpp:-uri 😉

  335. lovetox

    but why are you looking into this larma ? do you want to get rid of direct invites in your code?

  336. Zash

    larma: Heh, tho that touches on the whole stuffing semantics into <body> issue :/

  337. larma

    lovetox, I'd like that longterm we focus on one type of invites instead of having two

  338. larma

    would also be fine to go with direct invite only (although that means more work for members-only MUCs)

  339. Zash

    What does the current Compliance Suite author, Ge0rG, think?

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  341. lovetox

    larma, with direct invite only you can only invite people you know the real jid

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  343. larma

    lovetox, you mean with mediated invite only?

  344. lovetox


  345. lovetox

    no, can i send a direct invite as PM?

  346. lovetox

    i remeber i could invite people from a anonymous muc to another muc

  347. Zash

    xmpp:-uri passes there too

  348. lovetox

    ah no you cant

  349. lovetox

    direct invite have to be type=normal i think

  350. lovetox

    thats why you can only reach real-jids

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  352. Zash

    Doesn't say that tho, just no type attr in the example

  353. lovetox

    .. wait i have to look up my code

  354. lovetox

    there was definitly something type=normal

  355. lovetox

    ah no it was the mediated invite that MUST be type=normal

  356. lovetox

    again i mixed things up

  357. lovetox


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  360. lovetox

    so i could do a Invite PM to a anonymous room participant

  361. lovetox

    with direct invite

  362. lovetox

    hm what about if you are not admin, and cant add people to the member list

  363. lovetox

    but the muc lets you invite people

  364. lovetox

    then you have to use mediated invites

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  370. larma

    lovetox, true, but also very weird setup if I can invite but not add to member list

  371. lovetox

    not that weird, only because i want people to be able to invite other people

  372. lovetox

    does not mean i want them to change the MUC configuration

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  374. lovetox

    also members can never add to the member list

  375. lovetox

    so how are you making all people that join to admin?

  376. lovetox

    manually on invite?

  377. lovetox

    but i have no real eperience with members only rooms, how do whatsapp groups work?

  378. Zash

    with mediated invites the muc can make the invitee member when an existing member invites someone

  379. lovetox

    can everybody invite everybody in a whatsapp group?

  380. lovetox

    yes Zash, but i need him to be admin

  381. Zash

    huh why?

  382. Zash


  383. lovetox

    hm wait

  384. lovetox

    i think we are thinking of only having direct invites

  385. Zash

    With mediated invites, the MUC can decide who's allowed to invite others

  386. lovetox

    if i have only direct invite, i need to add the member to the member list

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  388. lovetox

    hence i need to be admin

  389. Zash

    Yes, that's a problem with direct invites.

  390. lovetox

    if i want that other people i invite, can also invite other people, again i have to make them admin

  391. Zash

    Don't you need to be owner even?

  392. lovetox

    to make someone admin

  393. lovetox

    yes indeed

  394. lovetox

    so i need to make everyone owner ..

  395. lovetox

    so we can just throw roles out of the window

  396. Zash

    I'm not sure where you are going with this

  397. lovetox

    in a world without direct invite, if i want that people i invite can invite other people within a member only room

  398. lovetox

    i have to make all of them owner

  399. lovetox

    ah *without mediated invite i meant

  400. larma

    However, mediated invites do not allow me as a recipient to verify the original sender

  401. larma

    So mediated invites are crap, but the only thing we have for members-only-not-everyone-owner rooms

  402. Zash

    Send both \o/

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  404. Zash

    larma: I think there's been loose talk of having an invite token that you get from the MUC and send to someone, who uses it when joining.

  405. Zash

    And suddenly there's 3 ways to send an invite! :D

  406. Zash

    Comedy comes in threes, or what's the saying

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  411. larma

    Can we make a new XEP that allows members to add others to members list without sending an invite and without being admin? Then we can do send both as a fallback until all servers allow members to add other members...

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  438. jonas’

    do Editor Team members need to be XSF members?

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