XSF Discussion - 2020-06-06

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05:38:10 lovetox pep., i think its in comparison to instant room
05:39:08 lovetox reserved means, you send a join presence, but then the room is not open for other people
05:39:19 lovetox its reserved for you until you finish the configuration
05:39:24 lovetox only afterwards the room is unlocked
05:39:42 lovetox in comparison to instant room, where you send a join presence, and the room is instantly unlocked
05:40:30 lovetox means in the time you need to finish the configuration, nobody else can come and take the room from you :)
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10:44:53 pep. ah reserved not reversed.
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12:21:40 larma According to introduction of XEP-0249, it is useful because of privacy lists (XEP-0016) which is deprecated by now. Shouldn't XEP-0249 be deprecated then as well?
12:23:20 lovetox larma, 0016 is not the only way to block contacts not in your roster
12:23:22 pep. Well the effect that privacy lists had on MUC invites hasn't gone is it. There are still people blocking messages from strangers as of today
12:23:24 lovetox its only one of them
12:23:52 Zash XEP-0191 or anti-spam mechanisms could get in the way
12:23:55 pep. Maybe that can be reworded
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12:25:06 larma Zash, I'd say that if you 191 block a muc domain or muc, you don't want to receive invites to it
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12:25:35 Zash Makes sense
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12:26:20 lovetox not really
12:26:30 lovetox its not about blocking a muc domain
12:26:30 larma also you don't add mucs to your roster (typically) so if you can't receive the invite, how would you receive the messages?
12:26:35 lovetox 191 has a default blocking option
12:26:40 lovetox of contacts not in your roster
12:26:40 Zash Does it?
12:26:45 lovetox all MUCs are not in your roster
12:27:31 Zash I don't see any default, wasn't that one of the things you could do with 0016 that doesn't have an equivalent yet?
12:27:34 larma I don't see 191 having a feature "block everything not from roster"
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12:28:09 lovetox hm, damn i think i mixed that up with mam preferneces
12:28:12 larma and then again, if the MUC mediated invite is blocked, muc messages itself are blocked as well
12:28:18 Zash There are server plugins that blocks everything from non-contacts tho
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12:28:30 lovetox larma, a direct invite is not send by the MUC
12:28:49 larma lovetox, sure, wasn't taling about direct invite
12:28:58 lovetox you have contact in your roster
12:29:04 lovetox you want to invite him to a muc
12:29:08 Zash That kind of blocking isn't great tho, for reasons like this.
12:29:11 lovetox how would you do it if there is no direct invite?
12:29:41 larma How would you do it with direct invite? If you receive a direct invite but have the MUC blocked, you can't join it.
12:29:54 lovetox why would the MUC be blocked?
12:30:02 lovetox there is a simple option in most clients and servers
12:30:07 lovetox block contacts that are not in your roster
12:30:15 lovetox that does not mean the jids are added to a block list
12:30:20 lovetox that just means messages are not routed
12:30:40 lovetox i can receive a message from you, because you are in my roster
12:30:42 lovetox i cant from the MUC
12:30:48 larma the MUC is not in your roster, so you wouldn't receive messages from a MUC if you block messages from JIDs not in the roster
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12:31:12 lovetox it seems you dont know how this feature works
12:31:26 larma *i am not talking about direct invite*
12:31:27 lovetox obviously the server starts routing messages once i sent a presence to the MUC
12:31:36 Zash larma: What you say makes sense.
12:32:03 lovetox and your client routes messages once you sent out a join presence
12:32:14 larma lovetox, that's not obvious to me at all. Why would sending a presence change the blocking behavior?
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12:32:49 lovetox because then the user made a decision to join a groupchat, obviously he wants to receive messages
12:33:18 Zash larma: Directed presence may be used in the same way as roster entries, in theory.
12:33:20 larma So the rule is not "block message from JIDs not on roster" but "block message from JIDs not on roster or where you didn't send a presence to the bare jid since the session started"?
12:33:47 larma Zash, well roster entries are per bare jid, presences are per session?
12:33:53 lovetox yes thats how servers and clients would implement a "block contact not in your roster" option
12:34:05 Zash larma: True, which is why I said 'in theory'. :)
12:34:24 larma lovetox, "would implement" - which server does implement that?
12:34:31 lovetox and yes larma its not perfect there are surely edge cases where this does not work as intended
12:34:38 lovetox but its better than getting spammed every day
12:35:03 lovetox ejabberd for example last i heard
12:35:07 lovetox did not try it though
12:35:15 lovetox they have a captcha challenge also
12:35:16 larma spam blocking and privacy lists/blocking commands are obviously different features
12:36:34 lovetox Gajim has this option also implemented client side
12:36:41 lovetox and i think C has this also?
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12:37:24 larma lovetox, sure and client side blocking can see that the mediated invite is from a contact
12:37:30 Zash larma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still.
12:38:07 lovetox hm
12:38:07 larma Zash, because servers have non-standard behavior that doesn't cope with mediated invites
12:38:22 lovetox how would the real jid end up in the mediated invite?
12:38:29 lovetox do i have to put it there?
12:38:29 larma lovetox, it does, no?
12:38:30 lovetox probably
12:38:36 Zash larma: and overzealous anti-spam mechanisms
12:38:41 larma https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-58
12:38:49 larma invite from=real-jid
12:38:50 lovetox larma but is this validated?
12:38:56 lovetox can i not put any jid in there?
12:39:00 larma the server puts it there
12:39:10 larma the muc server
12:39:18 Zash Assuming a MUC server sent it
12:40:05 larma True, but that's also easy to find out by disco'ing the from jid of the mediated invite message
12:41:42 lovetox i wonder if the server always puts in the real jid
12:42:18 Zash Another thing: In the case of a public channel, there's no real need for the MUC to mediate the invite, so direct invite is simpler.
12:42:24 lovetox but yes this would work client side
12:42:50 larma Zash, yeah, might be true
12:43:15 lskdjf > larma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still. Zash right now, 0249 is in the compliance suite. and I think that's a too vague reason to keep it there... (just to remember for the next iteration of the compliance suites)
12:44:49 larma Zash, although honestly I mostly use invites in non-public rooms. If I invite people in a public room, I usually do this using a normal message with xmpp:-uri 😉
12:46:29 lovetox but why are you looking into this larma ? do you want to get rid of direct invites in your code?
12:47:06 Zash larma: Heh, tho that touches on the whole stuffing semantics into <body> issue :/
12:48:03 larma lovetox, I'd like that longterm we focus on one type of invites instead of having two
12:48:40 larma would also be fine to go with direct invite only (although that means more work for members-only MUCs)
12:48:49 Zash What does the current Compliance Suite author, Ge0rG, think?
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12:49:46 lovetox larma, with direct invite only you can only invite people you know the real jid
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12:50:20 larma lovetox, you mean with mediated invite only?
12:51:00 lovetox hm
12:51:06 lovetox no, can i send a direct invite as PM?
12:51:40 lovetox i remeber i could invite people from a anonymous muc to another muc
12:51:41 Zash xmpp:-uri passes there too
12:52:15 lovetox ah no you cant
12:52:21 lovetox direct invite have to be type=normal i think
12:52:46 lovetox thats why you can only reach real-jids
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12:53:54 Zash Doesn't say that tho, just no type attr in the example
12:54:05 lovetox .. wait i have to look up my code
12:54:12 lovetox there was definitly something type=normal
12:54:46 lovetox ah no it was the mediated invite that MUST be type=normal
12:54:51 lovetox again i mixed things up
12:54:52 lovetox sorry
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12:56:03 lovetox so i could do a Invite PM to a anonymous room participant
12:56:12 lovetox with direct invite
12:57:26 lovetox hm what about if you are not admin, and cant add people to the member list
12:57:32 lovetox but the muc lets you invite people
12:57:38 lovetox then you have to use mediated invites
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13:02:24 larma lovetox, true, but also very weird setup if I can invite but not add to member list
13:02:51 lovetox not that weird, only because i want people to be able to invite other people
13:03:01 lovetox does not mean i want them to change the MUC configuration
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13:03:24 lovetox also members can never add to the member list
13:03:33 lovetox so how are you making all people that join to admin?
13:03:37 lovetox manually on invite?
13:04:51 lovetox but i have no real eperience with members only rooms, how do whatsapp groups work?
13:04:54 Zash with mediated invites the muc can make the invitee member when an existing member invites someone
13:04:59 lovetox can everybody invite everybody in a whatsapp group?
13:05:18 lovetox yes Zash, but i need him to be admin
13:05:33 Zash huh why?
13:05:48 Zash who?
13:05:53 lovetox hm wait
13:06:20 lovetox i think we are thinking of only having direct invites
13:06:23 Zash With mediated invites, the MUC can decide who's allowed to invite others
13:06:34 lovetox if i have only direct invite, i need to add the member to the member list
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13:06:38 lovetox hence i need to be admin
13:06:53 Zash Yes, that's a problem with direct invites.
13:06:56 lovetox if i want that other people i invite, can also invite other people, again i have to make them admin
13:07:04 Zash Don't you need to be owner even?
13:07:24 lovetox to make someone admin
13:07:26 lovetox yes indeed
13:07:38 lovetox so i need to make everyone owner ..
13:07:45 lovetox so we can just throw roles out of the window
13:08:01 Zash I'm not sure where you are going with this
13:08:35 lovetox in a world without direct invite, if i want that people i invite can invite other people within a member only room
13:08:46 lovetox i have to make all of them owner
13:08:58 lovetox ah *without mediated invite i meant
13:10:39 larma However, mediated invites do not allow me as a recipient to verify the original sender
13:11:21 larma So mediated invites are crap, but the only thing we have for members-only-not-everyone-owner rooms
13:11:22 Zash Send both \o/
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13:12:52 Zash larma: I think there's been loose talk of having an invite token that you get from the MUC and send to someone, who uses it when joining.
13:13:38 Zash And suddenly there's 3 ways to send an invite! :D
13:15:07 Zash Comedy comes in threes, or what's the saying
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13:20:56 larma Can we make a new XEP that allows members to add others to members list without sending an invite and without being admin? Then we can do send both as a fallback until all servers allow members to add other members...
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13:45:00 jonas’ do Editor Team members need to be XSF members?
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