XSF Discussion - 2020-06-06

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  71. lovetox pep., i think its in comparison to instant room
  72. lovetox reserved means, you send a join presence, but then the room is not open for other people
  73. lovetox its reserved for you until you finish the configuration
  74. lovetox only afterwards the room is unlocked
  75. lovetox in comparison to instant room, where you send a join presence, and the room is instantly unlocked
  76. lovetox means in the time you need to finish the configuration, nobody else can come and take the room from you :)
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  199. pep. ah reserved not reversed.
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  247. larma According to introduction of XEP-0249, it is useful because of privacy lists (XEP-0016) which is deprecated by now. Shouldn't XEP-0249 be deprecated then as well?
  248. lovetox larma, 0016 is not the only way to block contacts not in your roster
  249. pep. Well the effect that privacy lists had on MUC invites hasn't gone is it. There are still people blocking messages from strangers as of today
  250. lovetox its only one of them
  251. Zash XEP-0191 or anti-spam mechanisms could get in the way
  252. pep. Maybe that can be reworded
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  254. larma Zash, I'd say that if you 191 block a muc domain or muc, you don't want to receive invites to it
  255. winfried has left
  256. Zash Makes sense
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  258. lovetox not really
  259. lovetox its not about blocking a muc domain
  260. larma also you don't add mucs to your roster (typically) so if you can't receive the invite, how would you receive the messages?
  261. lovetox 191 has a default blocking option
  262. lovetox of contacts not in your roster
  263. Zash Does it?
  264. lovetox all MUCs are not in your roster
  265. Zash I don't see any default, wasn't that one of the things you could do with 0016 that doesn't have an equivalent yet?
  266. larma I don't see 191 having a feature "block everything not from roster"
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  269. lovetox hm, damn i think i mixed that up with mam preferneces
  270. larma and then again, if the MUC mediated invite is blocked, muc messages itself are blocked as well
  271. Zash There are server plugins that blocks everything from non-contacts tho
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  273. lovetox larma, a direct invite is not send by the MUC
  274. larma lovetox, sure, wasn't taling about direct invite
  275. lovetox you have contact in your roster
  276. lovetox you want to invite him to a muc
  277. Zash That kind of blocking isn't great tho, for reasons like this.
  278. lovetox how would you do it if there is no direct invite?
  279. larma How would you do it with direct invite? If you receive a direct invite but have the MUC blocked, you can't join it.
  280. lovetox why would the MUC be blocked?
  281. lovetox there is a simple option in most clients and servers
  282. lovetox block contacts that are not in your roster
  283. lovetox that does not mean the jids are added to a block list
  284. lovetox that just means messages are not routed
  285. lovetox i can receive a message from you, because you are in my roster
  286. lovetox i cant from the MUC
  287. larma the MUC is not in your roster, so you wouldn't receive messages from a MUC if you block messages from JIDs not in the roster
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  289. lovetox it seems you dont know how this feature works
  290. larma *i am not talking about direct invite*
  291. lovetox obviously the server starts routing messages once i sent a presence to the MUC
  292. Zash larma: What you say makes sense.
  293. lovetox and your client routes messages once you sent out a join presence
  294. larma lovetox, that's not obvious to me at all. Why would sending a presence change the blocking behavior?
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  296. lovetox because then the user made a decision to join a groupchat, obviously he wants to receive messages
  297. Zash larma: Directed presence may be used in the same way as roster entries, in theory.
  298. larma So the rule is not "block message from JIDs not on roster" but "block message from JIDs not on roster or where you didn't send a presence to the bare jid since the session started"?
  299. larma Zash, well roster entries are per bare jid, presences are per session?
  300. lovetox yes thats how servers and clients would implement a "block contact not in your roster" option
  301. Zash larma: True, which is why I said 'in theory'. :)
  302. larma lovetox, "would implement" - which server does implement that?
  303. lovetox and yes larma its not perfect there are surely edge cases where this does not work as intended
  304. lovetox but its better than getting spammed every day
  305. lovetox ejabberd for example last i heard
  306. lovetox did not try it though
  307. lovetox they have a captcha challenge also
  308. larma spam blocking and privacy lists/blocking commands are obviously different features
  309. lovetox Gajim has this option also implemented client side
  310. lovetox and i think C has this also?
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  312. larma lovetox, sure and client side blocking can see that the mediated invite is from a contact
  313. Zash larma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still.
  314. lovetox hm
  315. larma Zash, because servers have non-standard behavior that doesn't cope with mediated invites
  316. lovetox how would the real jid end up in the mediated invite?
  317. lovetox do i have to put it there?
  318. larma lovetox, it does, no?
  319. lovetox probably
  320. Zash larma: and overzealous anti-spam mechanisms
  321. larma https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-58
  322. larma invite from=real-jid
  323. lovetox larma but is this validated?
  324. lovetox can i not put any jid in there?
  325. larma the server puts it there
  326. larma the muc server
  327. Zash Assuming a MUC server sent it
  328. larma True, but that's also easy to find out by disco'ing the from jid of the mediated invite message
  329. lovetox i wonder if the server always puts in the real jid
  330. Zash Another thing: In the case of a public channel, there's no real need for the MUC to mediate the invite, so direct invite is simpler.
  331. lovetox but yes this would work client side
  332. larma Zash, yeah, might be true
  333. lskdjf > larma: So in theory I think you're correct that we don't need 0249, but in practice we might still. Zash right now, 0249 is in the compliance suite. and I think that's a too vague reason to keep it there... (just to remember for the next iteration of the compliance suites)
  334. larma Zash, although honestly I mostly use invites in non-public rooms. If I invite people in a public room, I usually do this using a normal message with xmpp:-uri 😉
  335. lovetox but why are you looking into this larma ? do you want to get rid of direct invites in your code?
  336. Zash larma: Heh, tho that touches on the whole stuffing semantics into <body> issue :/
  337. larma lovetox, I'd like that longterm we focus on one type of invites instead of having two
  338. larma would also be fine to go with direct invite only (although that means more work for members-only MUCs)
  339. Zash What does the current Compliance Suite author, Ge0rG, think?
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  341. lovetox larma, with direct invite only you can only invite people you know the real jid
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  343. larma lovetox, you mean with mediated invite only?
  344. lovetox hm
  345. lovetox no, can i send a direct invite as PM?
  346. lovetox i remeber i could invite people from a anonymous muc to another muc
  347. Zash xmpp:-uri passes there too
  348. lovetox ah no you cant
  349. lovetox direct invite have to be type=normal i think
  350. lovetox thats why you can only reach real-jids
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  352. Zash Doesn't say that tho, just no type attr in the example
  353. lovetox .. wait i have to look up my code
  354. lovetox there was definitly something type=normal
  355. lovetox ah no it was the mediated invite that MUST be type=normal
  356. lovetox again i mixed things up
  357. lovetox sorry
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  360. lovetox so i could do a Invite PM to a anonymous room participant
  361. lovetox with direct invite
  362. lovetox hm what about if you are not admin, and cant add people to the member list
  363. lovetox but the muc lets you invite people
  364. lovetox then you have to use mediated invites
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  370. larma lovetox, true, but also very weird setup if I can invite but not add to member list
  371. lovetox not that weird, only because i want people to be able to invite other people
  372. lovetox does not mean i want them to change the MUC configuration
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  374. lovetox also members can never add to the member list
  375. lovetox so how are you making all people that join to admin?
  376. lovetox manually on invite?
  377. lovetox but i have no real eperience with members only rooms, how do whatsapp groups work?
  378. Zash with mediated invites the muc can make the invitee member when an existing member invites someone
  379. lovetox can everybody invite everybody in a whatsapp group?
  380. lovetox yes Zash, but i need him to be admin
  381. Zash huh why?
  382. Zash who?
  383. lovetox hm wait
  384. lovetox i think we are thinking of only having direct invites
  385. Zash With mediated invites, the MUC can decide who's allowed to invite others
  386. lovetox if i have only direct invite, i need to add the member to the member list
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  388. lovetox hence i need to be admin
  389. Zash Yes, that's a problem with direct invites.
  390. lovetox if i want that other people i invite, can also invite other people, again i have to make them admin
  391. Zash Don't you need to be owner even?
  392. lovetox to make someone admin
  393. lovetox yes indeed
  394. lovetox so i need to make everyone owner ..
  395. lovetox so we can just throw roles out of the window
  396. Zash I'm not sure where you are going with this
  397. lovetox in a world without direct invite, if i want that people i invite can invite other people within a member only room
  398. lovetox i have to make all of them owner
  399. lovetox ah *without mediated invite i meant
  400. larma However, mediated invites do not allow me as a recipient to verify the original sender
  401. larma So mediated invites are crap, but the only thing we have for members-only-not-everyone-owner rooms
  402. Zash Send both \o/
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  404. Zash larma: I think there's been loose talk of having an invite token that you get from the MUC and send to someone, who uses it when joining.
  405. Zash And suddenly there's 3 ways to send an invite! :D
  406. Zash Comedy comes in threes, or what's the saying
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  411. larma Can we make a new XEP that allows members to add others to members list without sending an invite and without being admin? Then we can do send both as a fallback until all servers allow members to add other members...
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  438. jonas’ do Editor Team members need to be XSF members?
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