This months newsletter on the XMPP Blog is broken. https://xmpp.org/2020/06/newsletter/ returns 404 not found.
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Zash
Known issue, waiting for a fix.
Jeybe
Ok, nice
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Jeybe
Also, could it be that the RSS Feed doesn't return the URL of the original article? When trying to open the article from Nextcloud News in a browser it just displays about:blank where other feeds open the respective webpage
Zash
The real URL is https://xmpp.org/2020/06/newsletter-09-june/
Zash
at least currently
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emus
Jeybe: Thanks for reporting, Im fixing this later
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Jeybe
Perfect
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edhelas
emus can you please check the Atom validity of the feed as well ?
what does a stream reset look like in XMPP over WebSockets?
jonas’
do I just send <open/> again?
Zash
Probably
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Guus
Board meeting time
Sevesays hi
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
0. Welcome + Agenda
ralphm
Hi!
MattJ
o/
ralphm
pep., ?
pep.
!
ralphm
Any comments on the agenda?
pep.
None from me
MattJ
None from me
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pep.
I apologize I still haven't provided minutes for two weeks ago.. :/
Guus
No agenda items from me
Seve
Same as the rest :)
ralphm
1. Minute taker
pep.
I think one of the agenda item is appropriate here
ralphm
I saw a discussion item on this, suggesting cycling
pep.
this
ralphm
I am in favor, but want to submit that chairing and keeping minutes is far from ideal.
ralphm
any other opinions?
Guus
Why keep minutes?
Guus
we have a written record
Seve
We have the logs though?
Seve
That
ralphm
logs!=minutes
Guus
what we keep so far is incomplete, at best.
Zash
minutes := agenda + decisions
roughly
Kev
I suggest that minutes (which aren't really minutes in this case, but a collection of conclusions) are reasonable to ensure everyone is on the same page about what was agreed, and also because there's no reason members should have to read through pages of text to work out what happened :)
pep.
ralphm, when you're not here it happens often that I chair and send minutes
pep.
I do it after the fact and there's that
Seve
Many times you need to go to the actual record to understand the context
ralphm
I feel that we can't expect our members to read the logs of our meetings. Minutes are meant to be a summary of the items discussed, especially the outcomes.
Seve
We all want minutes but nobody steps up
Guus
sure - but no-one has interest in compiling them, and we've never done a round of verification that everyone agrees with what was sent out as minutes actually is a good representation of the meeting.
Guus
so, their value appears negligible to me
pep.
Guus, as you said it last week there is no round of verification because there is no regular minutes
Seve
The one thing we could try is a bot as MattJ mentioned
pep.
(so the other way around)
MattJ
Yes, I still think a bot is the answer
pep.
Seve, we need an intermediary solution
ralphm
I don't agree, and if we can't get this basic stuff down, one might wonder if holding meetings is useful
pep.
What happens during the time we don't have one
MattJ
The status quo is the intermediary solution
pep.
The status quo is crap. I don't like compiling minutes and yet I do it because nobody else wants.
MattJ
I agree
Zash
The pro-tip I've heard is to write the minutes beforehand, then use that as agenda.
pep.
I do think minutes are important as ralphm says
pep.
Great interest I see :)
ralphm
I fact, we are required to keep minutes in our bylaws. The bylaws do say that unless otherwise decided by a resolution of the Board of Directors, that role defaults to the Secretary. I can't remember Board meetings where this was the case, so I'm not sure how the current situation came to be. Up until recently we usually had one volunteer from the floor that would keep all minutes for Board meetings, but alas that's no longer the case.
ralphm
(pep. took some time to type :-D )
jonas’
do I see this correctly that you’re nearly half into your meeting and need a minute taker?
MattJ
As usual
jonas’
1. you should change channels to council@
pep.
(yeah sorry I wasn't showing chatstates)
jonas’
2. I’ll do it this time
ralphm
jonas’, actually we're discussing the persistent lack of minute takers as an agenda item, but yeah
pep.
jonas’, that doesn't solve the question
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jonas’
I didn’t see the start of the agendum
jonas’
if you already have a minute taker I’m going to wander off
ralphm
jonas’, no please
jonas’
(or if you prefer to ponder that question over actually starting the meeting, because I don’t intend to spend an hour on this ;)✎
jonas’
(or if you prefer to ponder that question over actually starting the meeting, because I don’t intend to spend an hour on this ;)) ✏
ralphm
jonas’, we're still at 1.
jonas’
so here, I volunteer :)
ralphm
thanks
pep.
Now maybe we can start the discussion re minutes :p
ralphm
If nothing else, I'll send a mail to our Membership about this, asking for someone that can do this weekly.
jonas’infers ## 2. General Lack of Minute Takers
pep.
And if nobody volunteers? We want automation, great, but in the meantime I think we need to get our hands dirty
ralphm
2. Lack of minute takes (<= retroactively)
pep.
(and by "we" I mean all of board, not just one of board)
ralphm
I motion that lacking a volunteer, we round robin alphabetically by first name.
emus
pep.: do you need help with the minutes?
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pep.
emus, "I" don't, board does
ralphm
emus, we are looking for a permanent solution for someone taking and sending minutes every Board meeting
pep.
ralphm, what to do in case somebody is absent
jonas’
what we do at work is to continue the rotation and let them catch up next time✎
pep.
(it's a common use-case)
jonas’
what we do at work is to continue the rotation and let them do it next time. ✏
ralphm
pep., do we really need to go through exceptions already?
If you mean that board members need to be prepared, I don't understand why reading the trello isn't sufficient. That said, I am happy to send out an agenda.
ralphm
4. Communications Person
ralphm
do we have an update here?
pep.
I think the matter surfaced when somebody couldn't access trello.
pep.
(And I agree with that anyway)
pep.
No update for 4.
jonas’
I’d like to throw in as a sidenote that sending an agenda in advance to the list is also for the benefit of non-Board members (or in our case, non-Council members) so that they can attend from the floor if there are matters they care about.
ralphm
pep. regarding trello, that board doesn't require login, it is public.
ralphm
jonas’, good point
pep.
ralphm, it's not "public" in countries where trello is not allowing access from :)
ralphm
pep., wow, that's the first I hear about it
Guus
can we move on?
ralphm
yes
ralphm
5. AOB
pep.
None from me
MattJ
None
emus
wait
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emus
if the bot can do it, we should rotate till the bot is done
emus
just my 2ct
Guus
https://xmpp.work happened. JC was wondering if/how we want to link that from xmpp.org, and who gets to decide on that.
ralphm
Do we host that?
pep.
on "linking that from xmpp.org" or "on xmpp.work"?
emus
I intented to make some suggestions to the xsf website, this linking aswell
Guus
We do not host that, as far as I know.
MattJ
We don't host it, JC does, and requested that we simply link to it
ralphm
I'm happy for us linking to it. I suggest we ask the comms team to make that happen.
If the XSF links to it, the XSF has to manage it ✏
Guus
I don't think that's true
pep.
(on this specific matter)
ralphm
I don't agree we need to manage it
Guus
we're also linking to other stuff that we're not managing.
MattJ
xmpp.org links to lots of things the XSF doesn't manage
jonas’
the XSF links to a lot of things it doesn’t manage, such as a bunch of client/server software websites. And even a public server list. And I don’t quite see how this is a lot different.
Seve
Motion carries then :)
pep.
I agre with Seve that we need to manage xmpp.work
pep.
Or at least that we can moderate what goes in
MattJ
I'm glad that a jobs board for XMPP now exists, and it's maintained by a trusted community member
MattJ
I'm more than happy to link to it, because we've needed this for a long time
ralphm
If JC's intent was to hand it over, I'd not be opposed to consider that. I don't yet see why we /must/ host it before linking to it.
Seve
Me too, hope I can get a job soon on XMPP!
Guus
what are the arguments for XSF needing to manage such a list✎
Guus
what are the arguments for XSF needing to manage such a list? ✏
pep.
Moderation would be one
Seve
Guus, that was supposed to help the XSF
Seve
I proposed the job to help gather sponsors and the like
Guus
I don't think so. This is supposed to help the XMPP ecosystem
Guus
(not the XSF)
Seve
The way you guys want to do it, does not allow for that
Seve
sure
ralphm
In a previous meeting we clearly discussed (around a marketing person) what we'd like the XSF to do short term. A job board was one of the key items and linking to it is sufficient to for now.
Guus
I don't see a reason why the XSF should need to moderate that list
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Guus
I do hope that it is moderated - but I don't think the XSF is required to be involved in the moderation process.
Daniel
just be happy that someone stepped up to acutally create it? - if it turns into a mess you can always remove it again
ralphm
Agreed, and also, if the XSF would indeed host it, I think the about page might be problematic as-is. That said, I'm very happy JC made this happen.
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Seve
Then I don't see why is an issue for discussion for the XSF?
so nothing to decide here (/me looks at the clock)✎
jonas’
so nothing to decide here (/me looks at the clock)? ✏
ralphm
Seve: I hadn't registered the connection to sponsorship. My thinking here, though, is that if we have more community because of this, that might indirectly mean more support for the XSF, either in terms of sponsorship, or working on specs.
Seve
ralphm, my idea was to support the job and provide sponsors with highlighted/featured jobs, promote them ,etc
ralphm
I motion we ask our comms team to link to the jobs board at https://xmpp.work/
MattJ
+1
Guus
+1
ralphm
+1
MattJ
Seve, I like that idea, and perhaps we can still make it happen
Seve
-1
ralphm
Seve: that's a great idea. We can discuss that separately with JC.
MattJ
But not necessary for just getting something live
pep.
I wish I could say on-list.
Guus
Let's use what we have now - instead of wait for something to materialize that hasn't done so for ages.
ralphm
pep., you can, if you want
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ralphm
However, it seems the motion carries.
jonas’
oh, Board has different rules?
emus
> just be happy that someone stepped up to acutally create it? - if it turns into a mess you can always remove it again
I intended to say the same. And also that we should care about it, as there were approaches and wishes on that already.
Seve
(support the job board*)
pep.
jonas’, no veto, majority of quorum to pass
jonas’
ok
pep.
And afaik I have never seen a vote pass on to list :x
ralphm
jonas’, indeed the Council's way of voting also includes terms and stuff, we haven't done that as far as I know
jonas’
ralphm, ah, TIL
jonas’
not important for this meeting though, I trust you as chair to not lie :)✎
jonas’
not important for this meeting though, I trust you as chair (and everyone on Board, actually) to not lie about or fudge votes :) ✏
ralphm
I see 3x +1, 1x -1, and a not-yet-vote. I'd prefer to tell comms team to go ahead.
ralphm
pep., could your concern be treated orthogonally?
pep.
Well if motion carries it carries. It's just that I don't have a clear enough opinion to vote yet
emus
> I see 3x +1, 1x -1, and a not-yet-vote. I'd prefer to tell comms team to go ahead.
Ack from my side
ralphm
I'll take that as a 0. Motion carries.
ralphm
6. Date of Next
ralphm
+1W
pep.
(which is different from 0, IMO)
ralphm
pep., noted, I'll retract that
ralphm
7. Close
ralphm
Thanks all!
ralphmbangs gavel
pep.
Thanks
emus
👍
MattJ
...thanks :) (especially to jonas’)
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pep.
And thanks jonas’, and others who come chime in :)
ralphm
indeed
emus
And thanks to jcbrand to getting that up
jonas’
minutes go to members@ and what else?
ralphm
that's it
ralphm
Oh, and decisions go on our wiki
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pep.
(that does need updating..)
jonas’
sent
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ralphm
pep., yeah, I was looking for them :/
pep.
There are minutes in between that can be used to fill that in. A bot would certainly help here. atm it's just more work
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ralphm
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Board
ralphm
pep., agreed
ralphm
there's no overview page either. Possibly it'd be better to have a page per Board term.
pep.
might be
ralphm
I do indeed think that a bot would be helpful for this.
pep.
There are older board pages also
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ralphm
yeah, at one point, Board meetings were also kept on the website proper
pep.
well https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board is actually from 2015
ralphm
yeah
pep.
I don't want to volunteer just yet, but it would indeed be nice to cleanup all that
emus
Jeybe: https://xmpp.org/2020/06/newsletter/ 🎉
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Kev
FWIW, I think for the duration of my contiguous stint as Council Chair, the Chair just wrote the minutes. Unless I wildly misremember it wasn't until subsequent Chairs of Council that it became trendy for Council not to have to produce its own minutes.
Kev
(It didn't seem to be adding enough value for me to note that during the meeting, but just about enough to leave it as a footnote)
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ralphm
I didn't remember, thanks
Jeybe
Thanks emus
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Kev
I think there is actually a benefit (and I seem to be the only person who's ever believed this) of the chair doing the minutes, because it ensures that the meeting proceeds in a path that ensures the person writing the minutes believes they have understood actions.
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emus
Kev: But it could be agreed on a structure or path?
Kev
I don't understand the question.
emus
And that something could be summarized wrongly is always a risk, I think.
Actually was a suggestion
emus
It could be agreed on a structure or path
pep.
Sorry I also don't understand
pep.
"something could be summarized wrongly is always a risk" surely. That's a question that can come aftewards though (as in ACK-ing minutes etc.)
pep.
Or just replying to the miuntes email
Kev
As pep. says, the person writing the minutes may always misunderstand. The bonus to the chair doing it is that the meeting progresses in a way that the person writing the minutes at least believes they understand.
Kev
Rather than someone trying to write minutes from the logs aftewards, or even during, and not being able to follow the discussion, or probably influence the flow until it's too late.
Kev
Anyway. I am not saying that Chairs doing minutes is the only sensible thing to do. Just noting that it does (to my mind) have *some* advantage.
emus
Kev: Ah okay, now I understand the diffence
Kev
For the closest thing to these meetings that I do at work, we cycle through people doing the minutes, and the person doing the minutes essentially chairs the meeting.
Kev
Which works pretty well (although I realise cycling Board Chairs every week may be a wee bit impractical!).
emus
I think is a good service to the members to have a summary.
Another way would be to lets rotate the meetings minutes and review by the chair. so quality is ensured✎
emus
I think is a good service to the members to have a summary.
Another way would be to rotate the meetings minutes authors and review by the chair. so quality is ensured ✏
emus
Also minutes are a "closed" document, a chat log is more or less not in my view
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pep.
Affiliation changes for offline users are not reported by the component?
pep.
/broadcasted, to all participants
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lovetox
pep., If the user is not in the room, the service MAY send a message from the room itself to the room occupants,
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lovetox
affiliation changes are broadcasted via presence, there can be no presence when the user is not in the room
lovetox
but the MUC can use a message
Zash
Well teeeechnically there can
Zash
What prevents us from sending unavailable presence with affilation changes?
lovetox
of course but it would be weird
jonas’
what about MUC is not weird?
Zash
what jonas’ said × 1000
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lovetox
i see no benefit in doing this with presence
lovetox
message seems more appropriate in this case
jonas’
except that affiliation changes are so far only in presence, so why move them to message?
jonas’
(except, I think, in cases where your *own* affiliation changes while out of the room)
pep.
What would be an argument in favour of message? Does that need to be persisted or sth? I'm already requesting affiliations when joining a MUC
pep.
(well, would be)
Zash
I mean to those in the room
pep.
Zash, yeah
Zash
If you're not in the room you can get a message, which is a thing already
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pep.
You probably care a bit less though if you're not in it?
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Zash
Maybe you care about your own affiliation changes
pep.
Maybe you do indeed :x
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lovetox
pep. of course the message should be persisted
pep.
lovetox, it's already persisted somewhere in the MUC state and there's a way to retrieve it
Zash
Hah, can't find that part right now, but instead I found something about sending an invite if you make someone member
lovetox
what is your goal exactly?
lovetox
there is a way to broadcast affil change of offline users
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pep.
I'm not planning to change anything, just curious. And then it triggered this discussion :p
pep.
I banned someone who went offline and I wondered why poezio didn't show anything (and if anybody else would see anything)
eevvoor
Where are the votes for Q2 published. Too blind to find it ...
pep.
re poezio I could do it since I'm the actor but generally we display things coming from the MUC so we'd just display this if it were a thing