XSF Discussion - 2020-06-11

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  277. Jeybe This months newsletter on the XMPP Blog is broken. https://xmpp.org/2020/06/newsletter/ returns 404 not found.
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  279. Zash Known issue, waiting for a fix.
  280. Jeybe Ok, nice
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  282. Jeybe Also, could it be that the RSS Feed doesn't return the URL of the original article? When trying to open the article from Nextcloud News in a browser it just displays about:blank where other feeds open the respective webpage
  283. Zash The real URL is https://xmpp.org/2020/06/newsletter-09-june/
  284. Zash at least currently
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  287. emus Jeybe: Thanks for reporting, Im fixing this later
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  304. Jeybe Perfect
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  323. edhelas emus can you please check the Atom validity of the feed as well ?
  324. edhelas https://validator.w3.org/feed/check.cgi?url=https%3A%2F%2Fxmpp.org%2Ffeeds%2Fall.atom.xml
  325. emus hmm, I actually have no clue on this? 😩️
  326. emus can you ask the the CommTeam muc?
  327. emus But thanks for your feedback!
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  335. jonas’ what does a stream reset look like in XMPP over WebSockets?
  336. jonas’ do I just send <open/> again?
  337. Zash Probably
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  340. Guus Board meeting time
  341. Seve says hi
  342. ralphm bangs gavel
  343. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  344. ralphm Hi!
  345. MattJ o/
  346. ralphm pep., ?
  347. pep. !
  348. ralphm Any comments on the agenda?
  349. pep. None from me
  350. MattJ None from me
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  355. pep. I apologize I still haven't provided minutes for two weeks ago.. :/
  356. Guus No agenda items from me
  357. Seve Same as the rest :)
  358. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  359. pep. I think one of the agenda item is appropriate here
  360. ralphm I saw a discussion item on this, suggesting cycling
  361. pep. this
  362. ralphm I am in favor, but want to submit that chairing and keeping minutes is far from ideal.
  363. ralphm any other opinions?
  364. Guus Why keep minutes?
  365. Guus we have a written record
  366. Seve We have the logs though?
  367. Seve That
  368. ralphm logs!=minutes
  369. Guus what we keep so far is incomplete, at best.
  370. Zash minutes := agenda + decisions roughly
  371. Kev I suggest that minutes (which aren't really minutes in this case, but a collection of conclusions) are reasonable to ensure everyone is on the same page about what was agreed, and also because there's no reason members should have to read through pages of text to work out what happened :)
  372. pep. ralphm, when you're not here it happens often that I chair and send minutes
  373. pep. I do it after the fact and there's that
  374. Seve Many times you need to go to the actual record to understand the context
  375. ralphm I feel that we can't expect our members to read the logs of our meetings. Minutes are meant to be a summary of the items discussed, especially the outcomes.
  376. Seve We all want minutes but nobody steps up
  377. Guus sure - but no-one has interest in compiling them, and we've never done a round of verification that everyone agrees with what was sent out as minutes actually is a good representation of the meeting.
  378. Guus so, their value appears negligible to me
  379. pep. Guus, as you said it last week there is no round of verification because there is no regular minutes
  380. Seve The one thing we could try is a bot as MattJ mentioned
  381. pep. (so the other way around)
  382. MattJ Yes, I still think a bot is the answer
  383. pep. Seve, we need an intermediary solution
  384. ralphm I don't agree, and if we can't get this basic stuff down, one might wonder if holding meetings is useful
  385. pep. What happens during the time we don't have one
  386. MattJ The status quo is the intermediary solution
  387. pep. The status quo is crap. I don't like compiling minutes and yet I do it because nobody else wants.
  388. MattJ I agree
  389. Zash The pro-tip I've heard is to write the minutes beforehand, then use that as agenda.
  390. pep. I do think minutes are important as ralphm says
  391. pep. Great interest I see :)
  392. ralphm I fact, we are required to keep minutes in our bylaws. The bylaws do say that unless otherwise decided by a resolution of the Board of Directors, that role defaults to the Secretary. I can't remember Board meetings where this was the case, so I'm not sure how the current situation came to be. Up until recently we usually had one volunteer from the floor that would keep all minutes for Board meetings, but alas that's no longer the case.
  393. ralphm (pep. took some time to type :-D )
  394. jonas’ do I see this correctly that you’re nearly half into your meeting and need a minute taker?
  395. MattJ As usual
  396. jonas’ 1. you should change channels to council@
  397. pep. (yeah sorry I wasn't showing chatstates)
  398. jonas’ 2. I’ll do it this time
  399. ralphm jonas’, actually we're discussing the persistent lack of minute takers as an agenda item, but yeah
  400. pep. jonas’, that doesn't solve the question
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  403. jonas’ I didn’t see the start of the agendum
  404. jonas’ if you already have a minute taker I’m going to wander off
  405. ralphm jonas’, no please
  406. jonas’ (or if you prefer to ponder that question over actually starting the meeting, because I don’t intend to spend an hour on this ;)
  407. jonas’ (or if you prefer to ponder that question over actually starting the meeting, because I don’t intend to spend an hour on this ;))
  408. ralphm jonas’, we're still at 1.
  409. jonas’ so here, I volunteer :)
  410. ralphm thanks
  411. pep. Now maybe we can start the discussion re minutes :p
  412. ralphm If nothing else, I'll send a mail to our Membership about this, asking for someone that can do this weekly.
  413. jonas’ infers ## 2. General Lack of Minute Takers
  414. pep. And if nobody volunteers? We want automation, great, but in the meantime I think we need to get our hands dirty
  415. ralphm 2. Lack of minute takes (<= retroactively)
  416. pep. (and by "we" I mean all of board, not just one of board)
  417. ralphm I motion that lacking a volunteer, we round robin alphabetically by first name.
  418. emus pep.: do you need help with the minutes?
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  420. pep. emus, "I" don't, board does
  421. ralphm emus, we are looking for a permanent solution for someone taking and sending minutes every Board meeting
  422. pep. ralphm, what to do in case somebody is absent
  423. jonas’ what we do at work is to continue the rotation and let them catch up next time
  424. pep. (it's a common use-case)
  425. jonas’ what we do at work is to continue the rotation and let them do it next time.
  426. ralphm pep., do we really need to go through exceptions already?
  427. pep. I'd say that's the default
  428. emus I think rotation is a good thing too
  429. pep. But ok
  430. ralphm +1, by the way
  431. pep. I'm +1 regarding the motion otherwise
  432. Guus 0
  433. MattJ +1 until we have a better solution
  434. Seve 0
  435. ralphm Motion carries, barely.
  436. Seve Prefer to use our efforts on the bot instead
  437. Seve Prefer to put our efforts on the bot instead
  438. pep. Seve, I think you're missing the point
  439. pep. Yes we also want a bot
  440. ralphm I'm ok with somebody working on a bot to assist assembling minutes, but that's just a tool IMO
  441. MattJ If I have it ready by next week this was mostly a pointless discussion...
  442. pep. Now we don't even have a clue of who's taking care of that
  443. jonas’ (someone who likes python could take the councilbot I started and extend it where necessary)
  444. ralphm 3. Send board agenda to the list
  445. ralphm pep?
  446. pep. Sure
  447. jonas’ (what is this item about?)
  448. pep. It was mentioned 2 weeks(?) ago, that being able to prepare for these meetings would be helpful. Just like council does
  449. jonas’ (thanks)
  450. jonas’ (thanks, that’ll do)
  451. ralphm If you mean that board members need to be prepared, I don't understand why reading the trello isn't sufficient. That said, I am happy to send out an agenda.
  452. ralphm 4. Communications Person
  453. ralphm do we have an update here?
  454. pep. I think the matter surfaced when somebody couldn't access trello.
  455. pep. (And I agree with that anyway)
  456. pep. No update for 4.
  457. jonas’ I’d like to throw in as a sidenote that sending an agenda in advance to the list is also for the benefit of non-Board members (or in our case, non-Council members) so that they can attend from the floor if there are matters they care about.
  458. ralphm pep. regarding trello, that board doesn't require login, it is public.
  459. ralphm jonas’, good point
  460. pep. ralphm, it's not "public" in countries where trello is not allowing access from :)
  461. ralphm pep., wow, that's the first I hear about it
  462. Guus can we move on?
  463. ralphm yes
  464. ralphm 5. AOB
  465. pep. None from me
  466. MattJ None
  467. emus wait
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  469. emus if the bot can do it, we should rotate till the bot is done
  470. emus just my 2ct
  471. Guus https://xmpp.work happened. JC was wondering if/how we want to link that from xmpp.org, and who gets to decide on that.
  472. ralphm Do we host that?
  473. pep. on "linking that from xmpp.org" or "on xmpp.work"?
  474. emus I intented to make some suggestions to the xsf website, this linking aswell
  475. Guus We do not host that, as far as I know.
  476. MattJ We don't host it, JC does, and requested that we simply link to it
  477. ralphm I'm happy for us linking to it. I suggest we ask the comms team to make that happen.
  478. Seve If the XSF links to it, the XSF has to manage it
  479. Seve If the XSF link to it, the XSF has to manage it
  480. pep. I agree with Seve here
  481. jonas’ I don’t
  482. Seve If the XSF links to it, the XSF has to manage it
  483. Guus I don't think that's true
  484. pep. (on this specific matter)
  485. ralphm I don't agree we need to manage it
  486. Guus we're also linking to other stuff that we're not managing.
  487. MattJ xmpp.org links to lots of things the XSF doesn't manage
  488. jonas’ the XSF links to a lot of things it doesn’t manage, such as a bunch of client/server software websites. And even a public server list. And I don’t quite see how this is a lot different.
  489. Seve Motion carries then :)
  490. pep. I agre with Seve that we need to manage xmpp.work
  491. pep. Or at least that we can moderate what goes in
  492. MattJ I'm glad that a jobs board for XMPP now exists, and it's maintained by a trusted community member
  493. MattJ I'm more than happy to link to it, because we've needed this for a long time
  494. ralphm If JC's intent was to hand it over, I'd not be opposed to consider that. I don't yet see why we /must/ host it before linking to it.
  495. Seve Me too, hope I can get a job soon on XMPP!
  496. Guus what are the arguments for XSF needing to manage such a list
  497. Guus what are the arguments for XSF needing to manage such a list?
  498. pep. Moderation would be one
  499. Seve Guus, that was supposed to help the XSF
  500. Seve I proposed the job to help gather sponsors and the like
  501. Guus I don't think so. This is supposed to help the XMPP ecosystem
  502. Guus (not the XSF)
  503. Seve The way you guys want to do it, does not allow for that
  504. Seve sure
  505. ralphm In a previous meeting we clearly discussed (around a marketing person) what we'd like the XSF to do short term. A job board was one of the key items and linking to it is sufficient to for now.
  506. Guus I don't see a reason why the XSF should need to moderate that list
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  508. Guus I do hope that it is moderated - but I don't think the XSF is required to be involved in the moderation process.
  509. Daniel just be happy that someone stepped up to acutally create it? - if it turns into a mess you can always remove it again
  510. ralphm Agreed, and also, if the XSF would indeed host it, I think the about page might be problematic as-is. That said, I'm very happy JC made this happen.
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  512. Seve Then I don't see why is an issue for discussion for the XSF?
  513. jonas’ linking on the websiet is
  514. jonas’ linking on the website is
  515. pep. it's commteam's job
  516. jonas’ so nothing to decide here (/me looks at the clock)
  517. jonas’ so nothing to decide here (/me looks at the clock)?
  518. ralphm Seve: I hadn't registered the connection to sponsorship. My thinking here, though, is that if we have more community because of this, that might indirectly mean more support for the XSF, either in terms of sponsorship, or working on specs.
  519. Seve ralphm, my idea was to support the job and provide sponsors with highlighted/featured jobs, promote them ,etc
  520. ralphm I motion we ask our comms team to link to the jobs board at https://xmpp.work/
  521. MattJ +1
  522. Guus +1
  523. ralphm +1
  524. MattJ Seve, I like that idea, and perhaps we can still make it happen
  525. Seve -1
  526. ralphm Seve: that's a great idea. We can discuss that separately with JC.
  527. MattJ But not necessary for just getting something live
  528. pep. I wish I could say on-list.
  529. Guus Let's use what we have now - instead of wait for something to materialize that hasn't done so for ages.
  530. ralphm pep., you can, if you want
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  533. ralphm However, it seems the motion carries.
  534. jonas’ oh, Board has different rules?
  535. emus > just be happy that someone stepped up to acutally create it? - if it turns into a mess you can always remove it again I intended to say the same. And also that we should care about it, as there were approaches and wishes on that already.
  536. Seve (support the job board*)
  537. pep. jonas’, no veto, majority of quorum to pass
  538. jonas’ ok
  539. pep. And afaik I have never seen a vote pass on to list :x
  540. ralphm jonas’, indeed the Council's way of voting also includes terms and stuff, we haven't done that as far as I know
  541. jonas’ ralphm, ah, TIL
  542. jonas’ not important for this meeting though, I trust you as chair to not lie :)
  543. jonas’ not important for this meeting though, I trust you as chair (and everyone on Board, actually) to not lie about or fudge votes :)
  544. ralphm I see 3x +1, 1x -1, and a not-yet-vote. I'd prefer to tell comms team to go ahead.
  545. ralphm pep., could your concern be treated orthogonally?
  546. pep. Well if motion carries it carries. It's just that I don't have a clear enough opinion to vote yet
  547. emus > I see 3x +1, 1x -1, and a not-yet-vote. I'd prefer to tell comms team to go ahead. Ack from my side
  548. ralphm I'll take that as a 0. Motion carries.
  549. ralphm 6. Date of Next
  550. ralphm +1W
  551. pep. (which is different from 0, IMO)
  552. ralphm pep., noted, I'll retract that
  553. ralphm 7. Close
  554. ralphm Thanks all!
  555. ralphm bangs gavel
  556. pep. Thanks
  557. emus 👍
  558. MattJ ...thanks :) (especially to jonas’)
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  561. pep. And thanks jonas’, and others who come chime in :)
  562. ralphm indeed
  563. emus And thanks to jcbrand to getting that up
  564. jonas’ minutes go to members@ and what else?
  565. ralphm that's it
  566. ralphm Oh, and decisions go on our wiki
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  568. pep. (that does need updating..)
  569. jonas’ sent
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  574. ralphm pep., yeah, I was looking for them :/
  575. pep. There are minutes in between that can be used to fill that in. A bot would certainly help here. atm it's just more work
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  578. ralphm https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Board
  579. ralphm pep., agreed
  580. ralphm there's no overview page either. Possibly it'd be better to have a page per Board term.
  581. pep. might be
  582. ralphm I do indeed think that a bot would be helpful for this.
  583. pep. There are older board pages also
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  585. ralphm yeah, at one point, Board meetings were also kept on the website proper
  586. pep. well https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board is actually from 2015
  587. ralphm yeah
  588. pep. I don't want to volunteer just yet, but it would indeed be nice to cleanup all that
  589. emus Jeybe: https://xmpp.org/2020/06/newsletter/ 🎉
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  591. Kev FWIW, I think for the duration of my contiguous stint as Council Chair, the Chair just wrote the minutes. Unless I wildly misremember it wasn't until subsequent Chairs of Council that it became trendy for Council not to have to produce its own minutes.
  592. Kev (It didn't seem to be adding enough value for me to note that during the meeting, but just about enough to leave it as a footnote)
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  597. ralphm I didn't remember, thanks
  598. Jeybe Thanks emus
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  600. Kev I think there is actually a benefit (and I seem to be the only person who's ever believed this) of the chair doing the minutes, because it ensures that the meeting proceeds in a path that ensures the person writing the minutes believes they have understood actions.
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  604. emus Kev: But it could be agreed on a structure or path?
  605. Kev I don't understand the question.
  606. emus And that something could be summarized wrongly is always a risk, I think. Actually was a suggestion
  607. emus It could be agreed on a structure or path
  608. pep. Sorry I also don't understand
  609. pep. "something could be summarized wrongly is always a risk" surely. That's a question that can come aftewards though (as in ACK-ing minutes etc.)
  610. pep. Or just replying to the miuntes email
  611. Kev As pep. says, the person writing the minutes may always misunderstand. The bonus to the chair doing it is that the meeting progresses in a way that the person writing the minutes at least believes they understand.
  612. Kev Rather than someone trying to write minutes from the logs aftewards, or even during, and not being able to follow the discussion, or probably influence the flow until it's too late.
  613. Kev Anyway. I am not saying that Chairs doing minutes is the only sensible thing to do. Just noting that it does (to my mind) have *some* advantage.
  614. emus Kev: Ah okay, now I understand the diffence
  615. Kev For the closest thing to these meetings that I do at work, we cycle through people doing the minutes, and the person doing the minutes essentially chairs the meeting.
  616. Kev Which works pretty well (although I realise cycling Board Chairs every week may be a wee bit impractical!).
  617. emus I think is a good service to the members to have a summary. Another way would be to lets rotate the meetings minutes and review by the chair. so quality is ensured
  618. emus I think is a good service to the members to have a summary. Another way would be to rotate the meetings minutes authors and review by the chair. so quality is ensured
  619. emus Also minutes are a "closed" document, a chat log is more or less not in my view
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  630. pep. Affiliation changes for offline users are not reported by the component?
  631. pep. /broadcasted, to all participants
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  647. lovetox pep., If the user is not in the room, the service MAY send a message from the room itself to the room occupants,
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  649. lovetox affiliation changes are broadcasted via presence, there can be no presence when the user is not in the room
  650. lovetox but the MUC can use a message
  651. Zash Well teeeechnically there can
  652. Zash What prevents us from sending unavailable presence with affilation changes?
  653. lovetox of course but it would be weird
  654. jonas’ what about MUC is not weird?
  655. Zash what jonas’ said × 1000
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  657. lovetox i see no benefit in doing this with presence
  658. lovetox message seems more appropriate in this case
  659. jonas’ except that affiliation changes are so far only in presence, so why move them to message?
  660. jonas’ (except, I think, in cases where your *own* affiliation changes while out of the room)
  661. pep. What would be an argument in favour of message? Does that need to be persisted or sth? I'm already requesting affiliations when joining a MUC
  662. pep. (well, would be)
  663. Zash I mean to those in the room
  664. pep. Zash, yeah
  665. Zash If you're not in the room you can get a message, which is a thing already
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  667. pep. You probably care a bit less though if you're not in it?
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  669. Zash Maybe you care about your own affiliation changes
  670. pep. Maybe you do indeed :x
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  672. lovetox pep. of course the message should be persisted
  673. pep. lovetox, it's already persisted somewhere in the MUC state and there's a way to retrieve it
  674. Zash Hah, can't find that part right now, but instead I found something about sending an invite if you make someone member
  675. lovetox what is your goal exactly?
  676. lovetox there is a way to broadcast affil change of offline users
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  678. pep. I'm not planning to change anything, just curious. And then it triggered this discussion :p
  679. pep. I banned someone who went offline and I wondered why poezio didn't show anything (and if anybody else would see anything)
  680. eevvoor Where are the votes for Q2 published. Too blind to find it ...
  681. pep. re poezio I could do it since I'm the actor but generally we display things coming from the MUC so we'd just display this if it were a thing
  682. pep. eevvoor, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-06-02
  683. pep. I found that in an email on list, wiki search wasn't happy for some reason
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  685. eevvoor yeah I tried wiki search today without success
  686. eevvoor But forgot that I could check my mails :D.
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