XSF Discussion - 2020-06-12

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  84. queen_tilfaar How long do you guys think it's gonna take for matrix to completely replace xmpp? Just wondering
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  88. moparisthebest Lol
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  92. eevvoor queen_tilfaar‎ this is not even asymptotically to eternity
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  238. rion Hey guys. To dup myself from the ejabberd room. Do I understand correctly it's impossible to use emoji in the MUC nickname?
  239. Zash It's forbidden, but not always impossible.
  240. rion I would some 🍺 there :-D
  241. Zash And the wrong combination of things slip through, you can cause s2s drops.
  242. Zash My recommendation is to preemptively assume fetal position under your desk and cry for a while.
  243. rion Zash: so you are disagree with last comments from there https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/1896
  244. Zash I can look in a bit. We should also do a writeup of what Prosody (trunk) does
  245. rion What is the final date when MUC will be deprecated in favor of MIX where I believe 🍺 is allowed? =)
  246. Neustradamus rion: xmpp:ejabberd@conference.process-one.net?join
  247. vanitasvitae Wasnt there a website for that?
  248. Zash rion, check what https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8266 says about this
  249. Neustradamus rion: XEP-0045 is good for a lot of years!
  250. Zash When someone makes a MUC→MIX bridge, that's when all our problems go away. :)
  251. rion rfc8266 doesn't mention beer :-/
  252. rion Well from very quick look at rfc8266, emoji do no look something forbidden.
  253. Zash I imagine you also have to look at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8264#section-4.3
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  257. rion ah this hidden section..
  258. pep. Kev, the newsletter says about Smack: "Among additional support for more than a dozen new XEPs, the new release will contain a new architecture for modular transports, as well as a modified API that applies the builder pattern to stanza types.", is the term "modular transports" from Smack and if so can you explain a bit to help me (us) translate
  259. rion Zash: well ok. Doesn't really mater in fact. I just added KDE emoticons support in Psi and now have all the EmojiOne here. It was just interesting how I can apply it :)
  260. flow pep., was that a question for me?
  261. pep. Ah sorry
  262. pep. Smack, Smacks..
  263. pep. Wait smacks is something else?
  264. pep. mod_smacks.
  265. flow well there is mod_smacks
  266. pep. Anyway, confused..
  267. flow and of course the linux kernel's Simplified Mandatory Access Control Kernel (SMACK)
  268. pep. flow, so any hint for us translators? :p
  269. pep. What does that mean
  270. flow pep., in the past, when someone added support for a new xmpp transport to smack, what he/she usually did was "cp XMPPTCPConnection.java XMPPBOSHConnection.java"
  271. flow but that copied a lot of transport agnostic functionality to, and hence duplicated code
  272. flow with the modular architecutre, you can plug in transport implementation into the smae ModularXmppConnection, like rfc6120 TCP, BOSH, WebSocket, etc.
  273. flow with the modular architecutre, you can plug in transport implementations into the same ModularXmppConnection, like rfc6120 TCP, BOSH, WebSocket, etc.h
  274. flow pep., does that help?
  275. pep. Ok so you've "just" made the transport code a bit more modular :p
  276. flow "just", hehe, I think it is one of the most fundamental reworks of smack's core in the last two decades
  277. pep. (Not diminishing the work, just trying to understand)
  278. pep. Ok
  279. flow sure ;)
  280. Guus sm-acks (acking of stream management) vs smack (the xmpp lib) ?
  281. flow rion, simply put, emojis are not allowed in localparts. FYI, there is a test corpus with valid and invalid JIDs in jxmpp, e.g. https://github.com/igniterealtime/jxmpp/blob/master/jxmpp-strings-testframework/src/main/resources/xmpp-strings/jids/invalid/main#L46
  282. pep. flow, thanks yeah that helps
  283. rion flow: well that's ok. I'm interested in the resourcepart
  284. flow rion, ahh, MUC nicks, correct?
  285. rion yep
  286. flow rion, do you have an unicode code point for me?
  287. rion I tried this 🍺
  288. rion not sure about numbers
  289. rion U+1F37A
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  291. flow rion, is valid in resourceparts
  292. rion so it's just ejabberd
  293. flow This codepoint was assigned with unicode 6.0 in 2010, so ten years ago. So if you talk to an implementation from 2009, it may rightly reject the address
  294. rion jabber.ru has ejabberd 2.3 iirc.
  295. flow hmm, wasn't there something special about xep45 nicks
  296. rion <nick> in muc is "discouraged" according to XEP
  297. rion fyi https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/1896
  298. flow I believe cromain is wrong saying that "emoji class is not accepted for resource", The Unicode So category, where most emojis are reside, is, as far as I can tell, allowed in resourceparts
  299. flow but please follow the traces in the XEP yourself: rfc7622 resourcepart is OpaqueString profile of PRECIS FreeformClass → rfc7564 § 4.3.1
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  304. jonas’ Ge0rG, MattJ, Kev, please check your inboxes re message routing sprint
  305. Ge0rG jonas’: thank you very much.
  306. jonas’ I don’t expect this to work out, and if it doesn’t, I’ll try to reschedule with more time ahead and with more potential timeslot input from the participants.
  307. Ge0rG I'm also very sorry for not giving feedback in a timely fashion.
  308. Ge0rG with my current scheduling background it might be better to do this whole thing on-list, though.
  309. Holger ejabberd doesn't support 7622 BTW, just 6122's Resourceprep. (No idea whether that should already allow emojis.)
  310. Zash Which combo of stringmangling RFCs was 6211?
  311. Zash Prosody is also on some older variant
  312. jonas’ 6211? Cryptographic Message Syntax?
  313. Zash m/rfc6[12]{3}/
  314. jonas’ I don’t know that command
  315. Holger Zash: RFC 3454 + Appendix B in RFC 6122, I believe.
  316. Holger But I'm trying hard *not* to look into this right now :-)
  317. Zash Friday clock-out-o-clock is not the time for that, indeed.
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  337. dwd Neustradamus, Please stop constantly asking me to test your memberbot PR for you. I have already explained I'm very busy and will not do it. You need to test it yourself, and clearly describe the benefits, or drop the issue.
  338. Neustradamus dwd: Please read the comment.
  339. dwd Neustradamus, Yeah, it tells me I have to test it. But firstly, I don't have to, and secondly, you tell me you haven't, and it's your code.
  340. Shell this sounds like a bug in Psi, fwiw.
  341. dwd Shell, Possibly; but the memberbot now accepts "yes" and "no" case-insensitively in all responses, so it's irrelevant, I think.
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  346. Neustradamus If someone can confirm my solution, it will be nice, I would like a merging before next voting period... It will be nice to have before Gajim integration: https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/-/issues/9768 (cc lovetox).
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  350. dwd But "Yes" or "No" both work in the current master of memberbot.
  351. Guus Neustradamus : dwd is thinking that your change is no longer needed, as someone else already made a similar change.
  352. Kev Well, the change doesn't do what it says it does.
  353. Kev It claims to be influencing what the bot is asking clients to send, and it doesn't, it's only the display label that's being changed, unless I'm incredibly dense.
  354. Kev So the right thing to do seems to be to close the PR, to me.
  355. Guus From what I read in the Github comments, others came to the same conclusion.
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  377. Neustradamus Guus: No, it is not completely solved, the other PR adds support of Yes/No, but the problem is that the HTML code is not correct.
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  384. dwd Neustradamus, You're suggesting that the spaces *outside* an anchor make a difference to how Psi interprets the encoded URL parameters, is that correct?
  385. Neustradamus rion: ^
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  388. rion is out of the context
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  390. Neustradamus https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/4
  391. Neustradamus rion: https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/4
  392. Zash but why
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  394. rion Neustradamus: I'm sorry. From your PR descriptions it's never possible to understand what it's about. Please stop making PRs
  395. Neustradamus Context: Psi with auto-capitalize first letter of sentence (the feature is requested in Gajim too) Currently, when we click on "yes", we have "yes", and when we click on "no", we have "No". My PR permits to have "same": "Yes" and "No", all people are happy.
  396. Neustradamus It is clear, you can test directly with the test memberbot from dwd: memberbot@dave.cridland.net.
  397. pep. rion, don't say that or he'll go back to just demanding things to people :P
  398. pep. rion, don't say that or he'll go back to just demanding things from people :P
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  401. Neustradamus rion: https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/4#issuecomment-643006808 + https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/4#issuecomment-643301118, it is not clear?
  402. dwd Neustradamus, But your PR doesn't do that.
  403. Zash I understand nothing.
  404. dwd Or rather:
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  406. dwd Neustradamus, Firstly, your PR doesn't change anything - the spaces you've added are around the links, not what Psi is asked to send in the URLs, and
  407. pep. ahhhh, Neustradamus your PR adds spaces around so that they don't get capitalized in psi? what?
  408. dwd Neustradamus, Secondly, the patches that pep. and I already did mean that "Yes", "yes", "YES", and so on are all treated identically anyway, so it no longer matters whether Psi (or Gajim) capitalise the first letter or not.
  409. Neustradamus https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/4#issuecomment-643301118 After my change you have now "same": yes: you will have now "Yes" no: you will have always "No"
  410. pep. Neustradamus, have you tested with all the latest changes? It shouldn't matter anymore if Psi capitalises or not
  411. Neustradamus Currently, you will see the difference, when you click on: yes: you have "yes" no: you have "No"
  412. pep. If it does then we should fix this instead of working around it
  413. rion Neustradamus: I guess I start understanding. You want to disabled auto-capitalization feature in Psi. correct? If so there is an option for this somewhere.
  414. pep. Neustradamus, is it the case in all clients?
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  416. rion Neustradamus: options.ui.chat.auto-capitalize set it to false
  417. Neustradamus Yes no problem without the auto-capitalize feature, it is "yes" and "no".
  418. rion so solved!
  419. MattJ If you enable auto-capitalize, and it doesn't capitalize, isn't that a bug?
  420. pep. Neustradamus, so it's not a memberbot issue?
  421. Neustradamus I have specify in the ticket: - You can test with Psi and auto-capitalize function: "Psi -> Options -> Messages -> Input -> Automaticaly capitalize the first letter in a sentence".
  422. Neustradamus I have specified in the ticket: - You can test with Psi and auto-capitalize function: "Psi -> Options -> Messages -> Input -> Automaticaly capitalize the first letter in a sentence".
  423. MattJ With your "fix": doesn't capitalize => bug
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  425. pep. Neustradamus, yes but why should it matter for memberbot what Psi does here. Maybe help fix the auto-capitalization issue
  426. pep. In psi.
  427. Neustradamus rion: it is not solved, the problem is always here with auto-capitalize the first letter of a setence, but it is solved with my fix.
  428. rion Well guys already told you the fix is invalid. And I agree.
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  430. rion If you want to switch off capitalization of specific contact you have to go to our issue tracker and request something like "implement BLOCKlist for the capitalization feature"
  431. Neustradamus We will see with Gajim and the same feature if it is a problem with Psi or Gajim or memberbot
  432. pep. Neustradamus, great!
  433. pep. Please report back
  434. Neustradamus rion: I do not want to disable this feature for a contact
  435. Neustradamus I think that you do not understand and you have not tested with you XMPP client
  436. dwd Neustradamus, But... the memberbot now doesn't care if you capitalise or not (or, if Psi does). So what's the problem you're trying to fix?
  437. Neustradamus The problem is only for one choice
  438. Neustradamus The difference is about the click on "yes" or "no"
  439. Neustradamus yes = yes, no = No
  440. Neustradamus Do you see the difference between yes and No?
  441. dwd Neustradamus, And as far as testing your patch goes - you can surely do that yourself instead of insisting that I (or anyone else) does so?
  442. dwd Neustradamus, To be clear: The memberbot does NOT see a difference anymore.
  443. dwd Neustradamus, Because Alex and pep. and I spent some time ensuring that was the case.
  444. pep. dwd, I say let's wait on his investigation with gajim :P
  445. pep. Maybe both Psi and Gajim need fixing.
  446. Neustradamus Can you add my little changes in memberbot/chat_voting.py? Take few minute, and confirm it...
  447. Neustradamus -> https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/pull/4/files
  448. dwd Neustradamus, But you can, surely?
  449. dwd Neustradamus, Why do i have to?
  450. pep. If you allow me a short baguette interlude: Neustradamus, t'es en train de corriger le problème au mauvais endroit. memberbot envoie la même chose à tout le monde, le problème ici est juste dû au fait que Psi capitalise. Comme tu proposes, regarde Gajim pour voir comment ça marche avec et peut-être qu'on pourra en tirer d'aures conclusions :)
  451. rion Neustradamus: if you want I can add a different logic when text is pasted but not typed manually. But it's something for Psi 3.0 (in a couple of years)
  452. moparisthebest rion, vanitasvitae: this website? https://www.moparisthebest.com/mix/
  453. Neustradamus dwd: I have not a test memberbot.
  454. Neustradamus rion: Have you added the test-memberbot? You have seen the problem?
  455. rion moparisthebest: lgtm =)
  456. dwd Neustradamus, So make one. Create an XMPP account somewhere and point the script at it. And if you can't do that, we have to assume you are not competent to make any code changes to it.
  457. Neustradamus But you have one here, it is easy to update some lines, no?
  458. Neustradamus pep.: Do you understand that once is good and once is bad?
  459. Neustradamus pep.: Do you understand that one is good and one is bad?
  460. pep. Neustradamus, but it's not memberbot's fault
  461. rion Neustradamus: I don't use capitalization. It's better have a habit to press shift manually. Otherwise you will start forgetting doing this everywhere.
  462. rion I'm starting thinking Psi doesn't need this feature
  463. dwd rion, The auto-capitalisation or Neustradamus?
  464. Zash I feel like the opposite feature would be nicer, to undo the useless capitalization added by phone keyboards
  465. rion dwd: good question
  466. pep. Zash, that's an issue with the sending clients :P
  467. Neustradamus That you can see the main Psi developer can not test it... Because it does not use.
  468. Zash pep., therefore memberbot needs to handle it!!!1!
  469. pep. Zash, would you undo the (almost) systematic capitalization I do when writing from poezio?
  470. Zash pep., uNDO? WHEN YOU CAN REVERSE CAPS!
  471. pep. I mean at the beginning of a sentence
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  474. Zash pep., uNDO? wHEN YOU CAN REVERSE CAPS!
  475. Zash :P
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  479. Neustradamus You can look the diff: '<a href="xmpp:{0}?message;type=chat;body=yes">yes</a> /' ' <a href="xmpp:{0}?message;type=chat;body=no">no</a>)</p>')
  480. Neustradamus There is a space before "no" and there is no before "yes"
  481. dwd Neustradamus, Yes, I did. It doesn't change the URL, which is (we hope) what Psi uses to decide what to send.
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  483. Neustradamus Can you add directly, one example on 4: ' Would you like to recast your votes? (' '<a href="xmpp:{0}?message;type=chat;body=yes">yes</a> /' ' <a href="xmpp:{0}?message;type=chat;body=no">no</a>)</p>')
  484. Neustradamus My PR solves...
  485. larma If what Neustradamus writes is actually true, that would be a very weird bug in Psi...
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  487. larma (beside the weird feature of auto-capitalizing text that was not even typed in)
  488. pep. Well "yes" being at the beginning of a sentence I'd say that's on purpose?
  489. pep. But body semantics etc..
  490. Neustradamus No problem for "no" but there is a problem for "yes", and the difference is only the missing space between "yes" and "no" parts.
  491. pep. Neustradamus, no, the "only" difference is that "yes" is at the beginning of the message I'm guessing.
  492. pep. Neustradamus, no, the "only" relevant difference is that "yes" is at the beginning of the message I'm guessing.
  493. larma Neustradamus, *if* your PR has any effect at all, that would definitely be a very weird bug in Psi.
  494. pep. Surely some clients strip spaces so that probably wouldn't have any effect on them :P
  495. pep. But body semantics etc..
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  498. Neustradamus pep.: yes it is same :)
  499. Neustradamus - https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/blob/master/memberbot/chat_voting.py#L256 - https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/blob/master/memberbot/chat_voting.py#L264 - https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/blob/master/memberbot/chat_voting.py#L270 - https://github.com/xsf/memberbot/blob/master/memberbot/chat_voting.py#L276
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  502. pep. Neustradamus, the issue is not memberbot, period.
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  504. pep. I think we've brought enough points here today to show you that
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  508. Neustradamus pep.: I think that we have progressed, it must be solved before next voting period.
  509. pep. It is solved from memberbot's side
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  511. Neustradamus My PR has been merged?
  512. Kev Memberbot does not need changing.
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  524. Guus 🍿
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  527. Guus This is fascinating.
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  530. golabu I do like the efforts being made in https://xmpp.work/ and people are probably going to hate me for mentioning it, but someone has to do it. - The privacy policy (https://xmpp.work/privacy-policy/) is extremely hard to find (only link I found is in "Add Service Provider" -> "Sign Up"). Thus violating Art 12 (1) GDPR. - The privacy policy does not state the identity and the contact details of the data controller. Thus violationg Art 13 (1)(a) GDPR. - The privacy policy does not state how long Matomo tracking data is stored. Thus violating Art 13 (2)(a) GDPR. - The website uses Matomo in a way where tracking cookies are set without users consent. Thus violating Art 5 (3) ePD. - Additional hint: The privacy policy does not state if and how long server logs are stored. Assuming they are, this would be a violation of Art 13 GDPR. If no server logs are stored, it doesn't hurt to mention that.
  531. moparisthebest maybe whoever owns it isn't under GDPR jurisdiction?
  532. pep. golabu, thanks for reporting this
  533. pep. moparisthebest, they are
  534. Zash moparisthebest, where would that be?
  535. moparisthebest everywhere except EU I guess
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  537. golabu If the website would not list job offers in EEA you could try to argue that (even without geoblocking) if the data controller / operator is really not located in EEA.
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  539. golabu But as soon as the website targets EEA (which it does by listing job offers in EEA) GDPR applies.
  540. pep. I'm afraid we can only defer to the website author as we don't have access to this..
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  542. moparisthebest looks like there is only 1 job listed in India and the rest in the USA though?
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  545. pep. moparisthebest, I don't think JC will argue that this shouldn't be under GDPR anyway. The XMPP community being rather EU-centric (be it good or bad)
  546. pep. That'd be sad
  547. moparisthebest looking at the job listings you wouldn't think it was EU-centric, they are all USA except the Indian one :)
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  550. pep. Anyway that's not the point. Not sure why we need legislation to run after services to provide a privacy policy that states what it does with the data. GDPR or not.
  551. moparisthebest I don't even see a place to put data in there? do you mean just the job listings?
  552. pep. dunno, JC stated in the mail to operators that people could register themselves on the website
  553. pep. I haven't tried
  554. pep. But then matomo etc., you don't even need to register I guess
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  558. Guus golabu: thanks, intjko these are sensible things to improve. I've asked the maintainer of the site (which is not the XSF) to have a look.
  559. Guus > looking at the job listings you wouldn't think it was EU-centric, they are all USA except the Indian one :) Given that it is live for just a couple of hours, that hardly is a trustworthy accurate reflection of the future listing.
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  574. jcbrand golabu: thanks for the feedback, I'll try to incorporate it next week
  575. golabu jcbrand, 👍️
  576. golabu also sidenote: opkode.com (which I assume is your personal website) also uses matomo with tracking cookies but without user consent or any kind of privacy policy.
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  593. jcbrand I'll disable Matomo for xmpp.work. Would have been nice to keep track of visitor numbers, but it's to much effort to comply with the cookie tracking regulations.
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  597. Jeybe It's not representing anyway, as I could imagine that many users block tracking per default and send a DNT header (at least for me it's self-evident).
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  602. Guus > It's not representing anyway, as I could imagine that many users block tracking per default and send a DNT header (at least for me it's self-evident). I would be surprised if a significant amount of users does so. Our particular bubble (and I'm thinking you're overestimating blockers there) is a poor representation of the general public.
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  616. Neustradamus dwd: the test-memberbot is offline? rion will test...
  617. Neustradamus To confirm that the bug is in the memberbot
  618. dwd I've shut that machine down for the weekend, yes.
  619. Neustradamus Oh :'(
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  622. Neustradamus Kev: Can you reopen my PR, I will not create an identical PR... Thanks in advance.
  623. Neustradamus And I confirm you, the problem is solved with.
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  634. Jeybe > I would be surprised if a significant amount of users does so. Our particular bubble Guus: I do refer to our bubble of course, because that are the ones that use XMPP I'd say. If you don't care about freedom and privacy I don't see why anybody should use XMPP.
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  636. moparisthebest do people still use DNT? did any company in the history of the internet ever actually respect it? https://www.fastcompany.com/90308068/how-the-tragic-death-of-do-not-track-ruined-the-web-for-everyone
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  640. Jeybe moparisthebest: No, I do not know any major tracking company that does. Only privacy respecting service providers with a properly configured Matomo seem to do so. And for that it's good to have, because not every individual caring about privacy does block JavaScript by default (or so?).
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  642. pep. Jeybe, some people argue and are happy / encourage that XMPP be used by capitalists companies that have for primary goal to pay their shareholders, and as a fact don't consider freedom nor privacy as a first choice (or at all) :)
  643. pep. It's actually a feature often not to consider privacy
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  645. pep. Just think about their business model for a moment
  646. Jeybe pep.: So you refer to proprietary chat solutions build upon XMPP, like the chat system of League of Legends for example?
  647. Jeybe Or Zoom ;-)
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  649. pep. For example
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  651. Jeybe So they do hire for XMPP devs explicitely?
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  665. dwd Jeybe: yes, us evil capitalists who try to exploit poor clinicians do. Other evil capitalists also do, including many who fund the XSF.
  666. dwd Jeybe: in fairness, there's also a lot of evil organisations who aren't capitalists who use, and hire for, XMPP.
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  668. jcbrand pep.: purposefully misrepresenting other people's positions isn't a good look
  669. pep. misrepresenting?
  670. pep. You include yourself in there if you think you fit in
  671. pep. That sentence could very well be written absent of moral judgement
  672. pep. (I do judge though)
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  702. Maranda > jcbrand, 👍️ > also sidenote: opkode.com (which I assume is your personal website) also uses matomo with tracking cookies but without user consent or any kind of privacy policy. Matomo allows for explicit opt-out, and also you could simply have your browser activate the do not track flag it honors that too
  703. Maranda Also if the problem is gdpr even if it tracks data it's anonimised so it could perfectly fit in a compliant site privacy policy
  704. Maranda Really maybe you should tone down your enthusiasms guys, sometimes
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  708. Maranda (because it's often misplaced)
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