XSF Discussion - 2020-06-14

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  193. jonas’ Guus, ralphm, Seve, pep., MattJ: I need a quick opinion poll from Board. I figured out that GitLab.com may be very helpful in solving technical issues we’re having with the editor process. I made a quick proof of concept in a private space on gitlab.com and it’s looking pretty good. We’d like to experiment with that over the coming days and eventually, Board would probably have to agree to create an official XSF resource on gitlab.com. I don’t want you guys to feel like I’m doing a "fait accompli" style of thing so I want to let you informally know in advance and stop me from doing it (MattJ is on-board "if it solves issues", iteam-wise).
  194. jonas’ (as a sidenote, as a leftover of the rebellious energy from the whole github.com-taken-over-by-microsoft-deal, I still own the gitlab.com/xsf namespace, to which I also gave MattJ access last night, so we actually have a good resource there available the XSF could take over.)
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  225. ralphm Always +1 on experimenting. Curious what problems using GitLab solves that GitHub doesn't.
  226. jonas’ ralphm, the CI pipeline features of GitLab roughly combine what we can do with travis and docker hub in one thing, but without the extensive permissions we need to give dockerhub to add more repositories
  227. jonas’ (the latter is probably the fault of the terribly coarse permission model of github)
  228. jonas’ and it can do even more beyond that
  229. jonas’ like rendering HTML previews of XEPs which were changed in a merge/pull request and attaching them to the webinterface so that you can take a look at the result (and people don’t have to self-host their rendered documents anymore)
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  237. ralphm I've used GitLab before and know you can do these things, but I am interested in understanding why this would be preferable over similar features in GitHub.
  238. jonas’ there are no similar features in GitHub, or if there are, they are less convenient
  239. jonas’ GitHub started to have a docker image registry / artifact store, but you need to be authenticated to access it (even if the repository is public)
  240. jonas’ it’s all over all much less flexible than GitLab in this regard; they have much of a headstart on this
  241. jonas’ for stuff like the rendered HTML previews, we’d have to write custom bots and integrations, while gitlab can simply expose rendered data from a CI job in a MR in the web interface
  242. jonas’ and, most importantly, we can do incremental builds with the GitLab tooling, by using the cache mechanisms. This cuts down the build time from >1h to a few minutes.
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  260. Guus Sounds like something at the very least worth exploring. Assuming things are public, it might be good to think about needing to earmark artifacts as non-normative / experimental during testing, to avoid having two competing sources of truth.
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  264. jonas’ Guus, indeed
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  282. ralphm That's helpful, thanks!
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  303. pep. I said in another channel already I was happy with the idea :)
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  305. jonas’ Thanks for the feedback all. We’ll then proceed with experimentation.
  306. Seve Second all of the above!
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  327. golabu jcbrand, sorry, only seeing your message from two days ago now: you can configure matomo to use server logs instead of a client side script. No cookies and also tracks people that have adblockers. You still need to mention it in the privacy policy, but don't need to bother users to confirm it. See https://matomo.org/log-analytics/
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  393. larma jonas’, experiments are fine, but https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html#revision-history-v0.4.1 just confused me, so maybe not deploy experiments to live?
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  395. jonas’ what
  396. jonas’ larma, well spotted
  397. jonas’ I’ll clear the runner caches now
  398. jonas’ the downside of incremental builds, eh
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  400. jonas’ that and a "Random change." hidden in another XEP are the only glitches, I promise :)
  401. jonas’ (and they’ll vanish with the next clean rebuild, which takes about 45 min due to the PDfs)
  402. larma Yeah, was just confused for a short time when the email said 0.3.1 and the XEP said 0.4.1 is latest version. But the description of the change cleared things up 😉
  403. jonas’ the email itself was also an artifact of the caching
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  406. larma yeah, but it remembered me I had pending comments on that XEP 😀
  407. jonas’ :D
  408. jonas’ larma, please keep them for a moment
  409. jonas’ 0.3.2 is going to be published later today
  410. jonas’ (it’s already queued in the pipelines)
  411. jonas’ (though that’s only a patch-level change and won’t emit an email... and it’s really minor)
  412. jonas’ larma, so probably better to just start a new thread on standards@ with your comments, I appreciate them :)
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  456. lovetox are editors payed by the XSF?
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  458. pep. nope
  459. pep. I don't think anybody is payed by the XSF atm
  460. jonas’ iteam has a budget, but it goes to paying the servers, not the people
  461. pep. I mean for a recurring task
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  502. Zash Recurring tasks? Automate them!
  503. pep. Still nobody is payed to automate them either
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  543. jonas’ *paid also
  544. pep. oops
  545. eevvoor Will there be some special meeting for the gitlab experimemtations?
  546. jonas’ no
  547. eevvoor and whn on 17th is the decision taken? Just over the day spreaded?
  548. eevvoor *when
  549. jonas’ eevvoor, does it matter for you?
  550. jonas’ just because editors think it’s a good idea will not mean that any switch is hgappening
  551. jonas’ board needs to ack it first
  552. Zash *hg*appening?
  553. Zash approves
  554. jonas’ when the switch happens, an announcement will be made before
  555. jonas’ Zash, :P
  556. Daniel +1 for the change fwiw
  557. Zash Personally I don't care what editors use as long as I'm not affected or required to have some account with some 3rd party to contribute.
  558. pep. eevvoor, it's just the board meeting
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  560. jonas’ Zash, define third party. GitLab is kind of a third party, isn’t it?
  561. jonas’ (just like github)
  562. Guus jonas’: unsure if this is helpful at this stage, but did you consider non-gratis solutions to address the issues you've been working on?
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  564. Zash jonas’: Read: As long as I can email you patches I'm reasonably happy.
  565. jonas’ Zash, right
  566. jonas’ Guus, did not see the need yet, since the free tier on gitlab.com is sufficient for what we’re doing
  567. jonas’ it might be useful to pay or host our own CI runners at some point if the shared ones are crappy. at least with gitlab we have that opiton.
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  571. Zash XEP-????: CI dispatch over XMPP .. when? :)
  572. Guus Kk. Just wondering if Sam's concerns could be alleviated by using some kind of paid alternative. I currently don't have formed a preference myself at all, just wanted to point that solutions as afar as I am concerned need not be gratis.
  573. jonas’ Guus, GitHub is not going to become better by throwing (insignificant) amounts of money at it. Sam’s main concern is moving off GitHub.
  574. jonas’ To be honest, I think there’s a major difference in quality of the interface itself, beyond the CI integration, which would make GitLab favourable for our use case
  575. Zash Argument based on popularity?
  576. pep. yeah..
  577. jonas’ GitLab is a DevOps platform, GitHub is a software development platform.
  578. pep. Which I personally like to dismiss
  579. jonas’ The editor work is much closer to devops than to software development, and it shows.
  580. jonas’ github is trying to get closer with github actions (and if you’ve ever used the Azure DevOps platform, you know where they got their inspiration from), but they’ve still got a long way to go
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  582. Guus There's some merit in not changing venues to avoid confusion etc. I that it's more important that we can improve the performance of our performance though.
  583. jonas’ I agree
  584. Guus There's some merit in not changing venues to avoid confusion etc. I that it's more important that we can improve the performance of our processes though.
  585. jonas’ the registries have been a pain point and they still are and we need to fix them
  586. jonas’ we might be able to do that by resorting to gitlab CI on github
  587. emus Just my 2ct: If that step would be made, we may think about unification and move the Wiki and Trello to it as well. So we have everything in one platform. I think Gitlab has those functionalities as well.
  588. jonas’ the value which would be added by migrating to gitlab for the repositories themselves might be nice though, too
  589. jonas’ emus, it does indeed have issue boards and wiki functionality
  590. emus Yes, saw that at KDE
  591. jonas’ and there would be some merit being able to cross-reference issues, PRs and agenda of board/council
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  593. Guus I'm not a fan for changing thing just to consolidate our on one platform.
  594. jonas’ sure
  595. Zash The Venue is the mailing lists.
  596. jonas’ that, too
  597. pep. I dont see any interest in staying attached to multiple platforms either if it's just not to have a single platform
  598. pep. I'm personally open to experiment with wiki and all
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  600. jonas’ I’m not convinced that any non-wiki.xmpp.org location would be a good replacement for our wiki. mediawiki is a lot richer than either GitLab or GitHubs wiki
  601. jonas’ and we’re using that richness
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  604. jonas’ I also wonder if we should maybe do away with the PDF versions of the XEPs and replace them with epub or something.
  605. emus A bit related offtopic: Therewere claims about drafting the newsletter on Github and not in the wiki anymore (excluding non-tech people, what not true in my view). That would make things easier and also may offer to host translations by ourselfse and also reduce formating from one platform to another. But I see thats not the point right now.
  606. jonas’ Building them has been a pita quite a while now
  607. pep. jonas’: are we saying specific mediawiki features? I'm genuinely curious
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  611. jonas’ pep., look at the main page
  612. pep. jonas’: are we using specific mediawiki features? I'm genuinely curious
  613. jonas’ I mean, you can probably dump html into gitlab/github markdown to some extent, but that would kind of defeat the point.
  614. pep. the separation thing?
  615. jonas’ (and I guess it’d still filter much of that away)
  616. jonas’ colours, the layout, in general, the structure
  617. pep. markdown is an html superset right? :p
  618. jonas’ yes, but people tend to sanitise it afterwards
  619. jonas’ now I need to test if you can use style="" in gitlab wikis
  620. Zash how easy is it for non-technical users to contribute?
  621. jonas’ probably easier because the mediawiki markup is confusing and strange
  622. Zash does gitlab have a thing that lets you edit files on the web?
  623. jonas’ yes
  624. pep. yep
  625. emus Zash: newsletter? Make a github account what most people here have anyway. create a comment. I also have a sinple tutorial if someone needs it
  626. emus Zash: newsletter? Make a github account what most people here have anyway. create a comment or file change. I also have a simple tutorial if someone needs it
  627. Zash If making a github account is required then I'm opposed
  628. jonas’ it is
  629. emus everything in the visual interface. You can as always just drop your meassge in the muc
  630. jonas’ though you can also send patches to commteam@ ;)
  631. emus Zash: Making a wiki account is also necessary and needs permission, so Github is actually more general and open
  632. emus jonas’: You can, but we prefer people to just make it from their side with more ibsights and intrinsic motivation
  633. adiaholic_ has joined
  634. emus jonas’: You can, but we prefer people to just make it from their side with more project insights and intrinsic motivation
  635. Zash emus: a wiki account is attached to the XSF, not an unrelated 3rd party corporation with a ToS
  636. jonas’ (instead, it is related to the XSF. does the XSF have a privacy policy for the wiki?)
  637. emus Zash: thats true
  638. emus There have been actually only one claim on this
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  640. emus most were very happy with the change
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  642. pep. jonas’: don't think so. that was discussed quickly some time ago in a board meeting, somebody (TM) needs to do something about it
  643. jonas’ arguably, from an objective observer, a clear ToS may be preferable over complete lack of tos ;)
  644. pep. indeed
  645. emus Zash: as said you can always just comment in the MUC
  646. emus Anyway, we are getting away from the Gitlab discussion
  647. Zash jonas’, sure. but still, first party maybe(tos) + 3rd party tos > first party maybe(tos)
  648. jonas’ I’m not sure if `>` means "better than" in your case
  649. Zash more ToS-es
  650. emus In Gitlab would be our ToS? or Gitlab.com?
  651. pep. gitlab.com
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  656. pep. the XSF could add stuff like CoC on top if it wanted (stuff that would be valid for all XSF managed spaces say)
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  659. jonas’ reminds me that the clabot feature would have to be reimplemented in CI on gitlab.com, since there’s no such thing for gitlab for some reason
  660. pep. isn't that "just" another service to plug to webhooks?
  661. jonas’ not quite, since it needs to communicate back to the service + do some auth stuff
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  676. jonas’ larma, ghost-revisions of '390 are gone
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  681. larma when we are considering to move to gitlab, why not to our own instance of it? solves the issue of needing a third party 😉
  682. jonas’ larma, resources
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  684. jonas’ don’t want to burden iteam with more stuff
  685. mukt2 has joined
  686. larma Ah, right. Yeah, iteam is probably overworked anyway (at least iteams tend to be)
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  688. jonas’ fairly certain that’s also the case for our iteam ;)
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  690. Neustradamus I think it is very difficult to have main Gitlab for XSF, because a long time ago there was a JIRA and we know where is it...
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  693. Neustradamus I think that the current step must be to solve all current issues...
  694. Neustradamus Missing documents...
  695. jonas’ no
  696. jonas’ it most certainly does not have to solve all issues
  697. jonas’ then we’ll never find a step which does that
  698. Neustradamus It is a first point to show XMPP Standards Foundation (and XMPP) quality, reputation, etc. - https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/created_by/Neustradamus
  699. Neustradamus Why some companies use Matrix now? :/
  700. Neustradamus A good website is the showcase...
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  702. Neustradamus Not up-to-date / complete are bad points.
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  712. Holger We should simply fix everything and become better than Matrix in all regards. This should happen today.
  713. DebXWoody More feedback on social media
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  722. eta something something mobile clients
  723. emus More Matrix in XMPP. Apart from the fun, the critics are legitamite in many points.
  724. !XSF_Martin >More Matrix in XMPP. What do you mean?
  725. !XSF_Martin The money/marketing part? When I tried Riot once it wasn't really convincing me and what I've heard about running a Matrix server sounds like this is horrible.
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  732. emus Was just stupid fun in relation to the previous messages
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