XSF Discussion - 2020-06-16

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  120. DebXWoody

    I think it would be nice to have a MUC for new users listet here: https://xmpp.org/community/chat.html

  121. DebXWoody

    I'm quite new in the XMPP topic, but I also had some problems to get into xmpp. xmpp.org is very technical. jabber.org is not working.

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  123. jonas’

    DebXWoody, I think it would be nice to have a MUC for new users first

  124. jonas’

    we don’t have that

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  128. DebXWoody

    jonas’, I know. As I started to work on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Guide/de and I think I ask for a mailinglist for users-community, there was a Feedback like "XSF in not responsible for users". This would be fine also, but in such case "we" need to start with something which will take care of users.

  129. jonas’


  130. jonas’


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  140. DebXWoody

    I would volunteer for support of German Community.

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  183. flow

    create an entity which acts as xmpp foss software hoster (gitlab) and discussion platform (discourse) that attracts developers and users likewise?

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  194. emus

    I thought so too for a while. I am also a fried of "centralized communication" but still having a decentral network

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  196. jonas’

    ew discourse

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  200. flow

    jonas’, it's probably easier for end-user to use discourse than mailing lists

  201. emus

    I dont like mailing lists, too.

  202. flow

    I like them, but I also like discourse :)

  203. jonas’

    discourse is very non-attractive to me

  204. emus

    I think DebXWoody point is a different one

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  210. Holger

    I don't get the point. There's rooms such as xmpp:jabber@conference.jabber.org?join already, and also mailing lists. Nobody uses those. Adding more venues on top will make people use them?

  211. Holger

    I would've thought normal end users won't use any of those. They'll complain on the app store if something doesn't work, that's it.

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  213. Holger

    For power users actually interested in XMPP (as opposed to just their app), there are rooms already, and they are actually used, no?

  214. Zash

    Probably because https://search.jabber.network/ can't index jabber.org atm, so people looking for generic discussion channels find whichever ones happen to sound interesting.

  215. jonas’

    > There's rooms such as xmpp:jabber@conference.jabber.org?join cannot be found via s.j.n

  216. Holger

    Ok. So the fix is migrating jabber.org to Prosody, no?

  217. jonas’


  218. jonas’

    depending on what’s going on in there

  219. jonas’

    I wasn’t aware of that room until just now ;)

  220. Ge0rG

    maybe just removing invalid JIDs from the storage will already solve it?

  221. jonas’


  222. jonas’

    but that’s apparently hard

  223. jonas’

    because M-Link

  224. Kev

    > Holger > Ok. So the fix is migrating jabber.org to Prosody, no? The problem with j.o isn't that it's not Prosody, but that it's been abandoned and not had any updates installed in about 4 years. Just for the record ;)

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  229. Guus

    none-the-less, Holger does make a valid point.

  230. Guus

    jabber.org has the benefit of being very recognizable. If we can improve its utilization, that would be good.

  231. jonas’


  232. Kev

    jonas’: I'm not sure it's hard, is it? Someone just needs to delete the dodgy file off disk (which is pre-M-Link)

  233. flow

    I think end-users unable to use their xmpp client are probably also unable to join an xmpp based chat room. and yes the ML is used, but I'd argue mostly not by end-users

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  235. jonas’

    Kev, I have no idea

  236. Kev

    I'm a little offended that people are treating it as M-Link's fault that the jabber.org admins stopped adminning jabber.org.

  237. jonas’

    I don’t have shell here, but that the problem persists for over a year now despite me providing an exact list of invalid JIDs makes me think that it’s hard

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  239. jonas’

    I don’t have shell there, but that the problem persists for over a year now despite me providing an exact list of invalid JIDs makes me think that it’s hard

  240. Holger

    Kev: Sorry, I didn't mean it that way at all.

  241. Holger

    Sounds like it's actually ejabberd's fault 🙂

  242. jonas’

    I also can’t judge if it’s M-Links (the software’s) fault or not. More likely it’s that nobody with M-Link experience is left to work on jabber.org

  243. Holger

    (If you took over borked data from ejabberd.)

  244. Kev

    I don't know if it's ejabberd's fault either, it could date back to jabberd for all I know :)

  245. Kev

    (Actually, it's MUC so it'd be the old MUC component, if of that era)

  246. Holger

    Whatever, I was just assuming a migration of the service would involve cleaning up the data.

  247. jonas’

    it certainly would

  248. Guus

    What's the status of the migration?

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  250. jonas’

    "In progress"

  251. Ge0rG

    jonas’: you mean similarly to how the last migration cleaned up invalid data?

  252. jonas’

    Ge0rG, no, because this time people are aware

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  262. DebXWoody

    I was not able to join jabber.org because of Server-to-server connection failed: Connecting failed: dh key too small

  263. jonas’

    that, too, is an issue which is hopefully to be fixed with the migration.

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  266. DebXWoody

    new users should join xmpp:jabber@conference.jabber.org which can not be found on the website of xmpp.org. It's not possible to find via the search website and the most provider are not able to join the server at all. Is is correct?

  267. Holger

    So maybe add that room to <https://xmpp.org/community/chat.html>? Like <JUser@jabber.org> is listed on <https://xmpp.org/community/mailing-lists.html>?

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  270. DebXWoody

    +1 if the "Connecting failed: dh key too small" is sloved

  271. Holger

    Though I'm still not sure the "XMPP user" role makes much sense. Users use apps, not protocols. Is there an SMTP/IMAP forum for new Thunderbird users?

  272. Daniel

    > Though I'm still not sure the "XMPP user" role makes much sense. Users use apps, not protocols. Is there an SMTP/IMAP forum for new Thunderbird users? +1

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  274. Daniel

    To be fair that's partially our fault because we have been trying to market XMPP to end users

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  276. pep.

    That ^

  277. Kev

    Which isn't necessarily wrong, depending what you consider 'end users' to be.

  278. Daniel

    we should probably stop that instead improving it

  279. Kev

    It's the properties of XMPP, rather than particular apps, that are the interesting part to many organisations wanting to use it.

  280. Daniel


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  282. pep.

    Daniel, I do think there's room for more than just developers. But we don't need to target everybody for sure

  283. Kev

    That is - some orgs 'buy' XMPP, and then go to find clients/servers that satisfy their particular requirements.

  284. pep.

    Kev, I'm not sure that's something I'd target either tbh. XMPP is vast enough so that you'll eventually (very quickly) run into interop issues if you don't all use the same things and have a somewhat tailored server setup

  285. Holger

    I think it's fine to run such a room, list in on the web site, hang around in that room, and answer the occasional questions. I just don't share any hopes that go beyond that, i.e. building up an XMPP end-user 'community' or something.

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  295. jonas’

    I don’t have any hopes for that, I just want to redirect the flow of new users from the technical rooms

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  297. !XSF_Martin

    Didn't pep. plan to do some joinxmpp website which should serve as a starting point for new users?

  298. pep.

    yeah there's that, which doesn't get much attention (from me) atm. I was never happy with the name though. I'd say if it becomes a thing it would only represent a subset of XMPP servers/clients (somewhat like snikket, maybe the same, maybe not)

  299. pep.

    From what I understand this is not MattJ's intention to have Snikket become a thing to which users can openly register, so maybe not just like Snikket :)

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  305. MattJ


  306. !XSF_Martin

    Yeah, XMPP is very broad and not really a snappy term you would give to 'normal users'. Snippet is better marketing wise but a too small subset of the XMPP ecosystem.

  307. !XSF_Martin

    Yeah, XMPP is very broad and not really a snappy term you would give to 'normal users'. Snikket is better marketing wise but a too small subset of the XMPP ecosystem.

  308. MattJ

    It's not out of the question that a public/semi-public service would use Snikket, but providing such a service is not the goal of Snikket

  309. !XSF_Martin

    Every single time I write snippet instead of snikket. 😂

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  312. Zash

    FWIW you can get around the dh key issue by giving ECDHE higher priority, which a soon to be released Prosody version will do by default.

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  339. rion is going to make an emoji-oriented PR for https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0038.html If anyone is interested in the XEP, send me your ideas.

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  370. rion

    Basically I want to add categories and maybe also subcategories. Also I will add options to show an icon is a variant of another icon (all those about skin color. In UI it supposes to show the original icon in the icon selector but with a capability to select a variant on a long click or any other way). I think to add search keywords in accordance to https://unicode.org/emoji/charts-13.0/emoji-list.html Also somewhat unrelated to emoji but still needed is a way to tell the application where an raster icon may be scaled when presented to the user or it's better to keep the original resolution.

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  373. rion

    I'm also thinking about metadata features. Like where it's white and black, better looking on the white or black background. Maybe something related to color blindness too.

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  391. jcbrand

    Recently I registered fedi.chat (like fediverse), thinking that it could potentially becomes a user friendly endpoint.

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  393. jcbrand

    I also think it makes sense to come up with a new name for the federated network, to keep it separate from XMPP

  394. jcbrand

    Jabber is a good name, but trademarked

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  396. jcbrand

    So I thought maybe fedichat is better

  397. jcbrand

    But it's maybe still to technical

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  401. Link Mauve

    It sounds cool at least (to me).

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  403. pep.

    I'm afraid it's gonna be associated with fediverse a bit too much and people are gonna be confused why they can't use one with the other

  404. Link Mauve

    Isn’t it already an issue with all of these “ActivityPub” software?

  405. pep.

    You mean MastodonPub?

  406. Link Mauve

    What is the trademark situation on “fediverse” btw?

  407. !XSF_Martin

    > So I thought maybe fedichat is better > But it's maybe still to technical For people not knowing it means federated chat it's just brand/name so still ok. I guess a lot of old people know only WhatsApp is the name of that chat app not knowing it's derived from the english 'What's up?'

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  409. Daniel

    So WhatsApp is like Hanuta?

  410. !XSF_Martin

    > I'm afraid it's gonna be associated with fediverse a bit too much and people are gonna be confused why they can't use one with the other I guess if you ask random people on the street most won't know about fediverse so that's probably not a big issue.

  411. !XSF_Martin

    > So WhatsApp is like Hanuta? No, I can't eat WhatsApp but I can eat a Haselnusstafel. 😂 But yeah, I guess for most elderly it's like that.

  412. Zash

    pep., I've heard some argue that "fediverse" means all federated things, but yeah, it's mostly associated with Mastodon atm

  413. pep.

    Zash, I've heard some argue that it's all the federated web things :P

  414. Zash

    It means whatever you want it to mean!

  415. pep.

    Fediverse is fediverse!

  416. pep.

    Fediverse means fediverse!

  417. Daniel

    Between the people who block omemo and those who enable it by default it seems we can't even agree on a common user experience. So I'm honestly not sure if coming up with a name is the most important step here

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  419. pep.

    this ^ (again)

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  422. jcbrand

    This can happen in parallel

  423. Guus

    I'm not sure if we need to come up with a common user experience?

  424. jcbrand

    Things can happen in parallel

  425. pep.

    Guus, I think "we" needs to be external to the XSF

  426. jcbrand

    I agree

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  428. pep.

    I don't think the XSF should dictate UI/UX

  429. Guus


  430. pep.

    Snikket is a good experiment this way. There can be others

  431. jcbrand

    There is also modern.xmpp

  432. pep.

    It's "the same" (person)

  433. Daniel

    Obviously not the xsf. But I think if I installed a fedichat client I'd expect it to work with other fedichat clients

  434. jcbrand

    there are more people involved in modern.xmpp

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  436. jcbrand

    IMO, the UI sprint kinda fell under that initiative

  437. pep.

    I don't think the UI sprint was meant to be for modernxmpp in particular but it got picked up by modernxmpp (which is not a bad outcome)

  438. jcbrand

    Daniel: that's the nice thing about having a name... you can make it a certification. If you want to be able to give yourself the name (or at least be on the official site), then you need to conform to the established rules

  439. jcbrand

    i.e. any app that calls itself a fedicaht app needs to adhere to certain UI and UX rules

  440. pep.

    "pep.> I don't think the XSF should dictate UI/UX" also why I strongly disagree with having 393 as a draft btw :x

  441. Daniel

    jcbrand: I agree that fedichat or what ever could be a certification (or should even) but again it doesn't feel like we as a community will be able to come up with a consensus

  442. Daniel

    I mean omemo is arguably the most touchy subject but that will divide the 'modern xmpp crowd' in half

  443. jcbrand

    IMO you just need a sufficiently motivated group of people to start something and then others can either join or not. We don't need buy-in from the entire community

  444. Daniel

    That I generally agree with

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  470. MattJ

    I agree that a "common user experience" is not something we're going to achieve, nor necessarily want to

  471. MattJ

    I've been considering breaking Modern XMPP up into "profiles"

  472. MattJ

    Similar to what we've started to do with the complaince suites

  473. MattJ

    We touched on this at the summit, during the discussion about (iirc) "rich status"

  474. MattJ

    For some audiences such a thing would be something like WhatsApp stories, for others it could just mean adding an emoji to your status message

  475. Daniel

    if you end up creating as many profiles as there are products I don’t see the benefits of marketing the profile instead of the product though

  476. MattJ

    Obviously the intention would not be to do that :)

  477. MattJ

    I mean, look at the situation on iOS where we have so many clients that would fall into the "personal messaging" category, but they all have vastly different terminology, UI patterns and feature sets

  478. Zash

    So, given the existence of both anti-omemo and pro-omemo-only folks, we can't have the most basic interop at all.

  479. Kev

    I don't think most folks are anti-omemo, just pro-things-that-omemo-prevents.

  480. Kev


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  485. Zash

    I'm anti-removal-of-my-choice-in-clients.

  486. pep.

    fwiw I'd probably still be using poezio or similar, because "I know" and I can adapt to different "profiles"

  487. pep.

    (and poezio allows me to)

  488. pep.

    I don't have enough time to write a client per profile

  489. Zash

    Yay modularity

  490. pep.

    But I'm not (we're not) your random end-user

  491. moparisthebest

    what does omemo prevent?

  492. jonas’

    moparisthebest, server side search for one

  493. moparisthebest

    and don't say history across devices because that just requires some not-yet-existing history sync

  494. pep.

    moparisthebest, "not encrypting" :P

  495. Zash

    using non-omemo clients becomes very painful

  496. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, until recently, anything that wasn’t part of the body.

  497. jonas’

    Link Mauve, and in practice, still, because implementations are not quite there yet. and the ecosystem has been damaged from that "but we can’t omemo that" attitude for a while now

  498. moparisthebest

    jonas’, why

  499. jonas’

    moparisthebest, why what?

  500. moparisthebest

    yes no argument there Link Mauve , but that's fixed *soon*

  501. jonas’

    why if messages are end-to-end encrypted you cannot do full-text search inside the encrypted data on the server?

  502. moparisthebest

    jonas’, server side search, why

  503. moparisthebest

    yea but you can on the client

  504. jonas’

    that’s not "server side search"

  505. jcbrand

    moparisthebest: Any kinds of attachments (e.g. emoji-reactions or mentions) (at least until recently)

  506. jcbrand

    moparisthebest: Any kinds of references (e.g. emoji-reactions or mentions) (at least until recently)

  507. jonas’

    moparisthebest, yeah, see how well that performs on mobile. conversations is extremely slow because it has to keep the fts index up-to-date

  508. moparisthebest

    and everyone running prosody or ejabberd on their rpi1 won't be very happy with FTS on the server, meh

  509. pep.

    Also because people whom it concerns are not saying it or are hiding behind other excuses I will for them (you can thank me later): OMEMO also non-GPL implementations (or at least makes it harder) :)

  510. pep.

    Also because people whom it concerns are not saying it or are hiding behind other excuses I will for them (you can thank me later): OMEMO also prevents non-GPL implementations (or at least makes it harder) :)

  511. jonas’

    I suspect the portion of users doing that is *much* smaller than the portion of users running an XMPP IM client on a smartphone.

  512. jonas’

    pep., not anymore it doesn’t

  513. jonas’

    or did I miss something?

  514. Daniel

    to be fair as far as I understand it your situtation jonas’ is a bit special because you turn Conversations on once per week

  515. jonas’

    Daniel, yes, because otherwise it’d drain my battery all the time for the same reason

  516. Daniel

    and Conversations is a bit shitty about the way MAM catchups are stored in sql

  517. pep.

    jonas’, dunno, just making fun of some who hide behind other excuses while that was actually a pretty obvious end-goal

  518. Daniel

    that can (and probably should) be optimized

  519. jonas’

    and because I can’t stand my phone vibrating when I don’t want to pay attention to it

  520. moparisthebest

    so far I've heard valid reasons not to use historical omemo, and not much else, that seems right

  521. moparisthebest

    jonas’, that's what the quiet hours are for

  522. jonas’

    moparisthebest, thanks for just ignoring server-side search and references as a valid reason.

  523. jonas’

    moparisthebest, no, because I want to get non-XMPP text messages (and other stuff) still.

  524. moparisthebest

    references aren't an issue right?

  525. moparisthebest

    server-side search, yea, I think that's useless

  526. moparisthebest

    I guess if you want to offload search to some other more powerful device you can right?

  527. jonas’

    moparisthebest, good argument there, love it /s

  528. jonas’ tunes out

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  530. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, basically anything where the server would want to see the messages, be it for spam reasons, for long-term archiving, etc.

  531. moparisthebest

    did I misunderstand? I think both Link Mauve and jcbrand brought up good reasons why it wasn't ready to use historically, but that's solved in latest versions

  532. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, also the issue of getting a new device and being unable to see previous history.

  533. moparisthebest

    ^ that just needs some history sync thing

  534. jonas’


  535. Link Mauve

    (Which for me would be a deal stopper.)

  536. moparisthebest

    I've heard WA has history sync, I wonder if they have any documents about how it works

  537. Daniel

    MAM sync between devices should be relatively easy (on paper)

  538. Daniel

    with a bit of luck I might get paid to implement that at some point

  539. MattJ


  540. moparisthebest

    well and with omemo encrypting everything now, also actually safe

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  543. Daniel

    jingle; web rtc data channels; and encrypted xml streams (what's the name again)

  544. moparisthebest

    ok these are less impressive than you would have thought https://faq.whatsapp.com/android/chats/how-to-restore-your-chat-history https://faq.whatsapp.com/iphone/chats/how-to-restore-your-chat-history

  545. Daniel

    so in your home network it doesn’t even hit your server

  546. moparisthebest

    tl;dr "just back up to $creep-cloud then restore!"

  547. Daniel

    plus is reasonable secure

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  603. jjrh

    I'm currently trying to work with a proprietary client that doesn't even display error messages :/ Like if you send to a invalid jid, one that doesn't exist, or in my usecase if the component is down, it doesn't inform the user at all.

  604. Zash

    Not great :(

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  613. jjrh

    Pretty bizarre I would have thought they would at least tell you if it was a invalid jid

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  616. pep.

    "invalid jid" and "jid that doesn't exist" are different things

  617. jjrh

    well it was happy to do test.example.com (a typo on my part)

  618. jjrh

    but yeah that's a fair point.

  619. Zash

    No indication if you e.g. message xmpp:someone@reject.badxmpp.eu ?

  620. jjrh

    not as far as I can see.

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  623. jjrh

    You see all this in the logs so I guess they just haven't implemented it in the gui

  624. !XSF_Martin

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0377.html#payload « I don't understand example 3. Shouldn't there also be an opening for the spam element and an JID in it?

  625. Maranda has left

  626. pep.

    !XSF_Martin, no it's just an empty <spam/>

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  628. pep.

    The text can be confusing yeah. And there's no schema of course

  629. !XSF_Martin

    So, I tell the server I receive spam but I won't reveal the spammers JID? Sounds like some academic example that doesn't make much sense. Or am I missing the point about sending a report like this?

  630. pep.

    Well you tell it in the blocking command

  631. pep.

    Well you tell it with 191

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  633. pep.

    I also find sad that the two are not separate, but that's a start..

  634. !XSF_Martin

    Yeah, but that's only when you combine it with blocking, so it only works with your server, right? I had a look at the XEP because I was curious if you could implement in a client to also report spammers from remote servers to their server.

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  638. Zash

    !XSF_Martin, pep., https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0268.html

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  641. pep.

    Fancy CamelCase XML in there

  642. Zash

    also https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0287.html

  643. pep.

    Is that implemented anywhere?

  644. Zash


  645. pep.

    Anywhere it matters for us?

  646. Zash

    Metronome IIRC

  647. Jeybe has joined

  648. Zash

    The IODEF could use an example of the minimum you'd actually need, ie JID and a reason

  649. Zash

    The IODEF XEP* could use an example of the minimum you'd actually need, ie JID and a reason

  650. pep.

    > A client software doesn't need to interrupt a user when processing such marked stanzas: for example, it may put them silently in "SPAM" folder, so a user can look through them at any time later.

  651. pep.

    Interesting. How do they implement a spam folder

  652. pep.


  653. Zash

    Similar to how you implement the inbox folder? :)

  654. pep.


  655. Lance has joined

  656. !XSF_Martin

    Mickaël Rémond is one of the XEP-0268 authors so I would expect it to be supported by ejabberd…

  657. !XSF_Martin

    Uh, and MattJ too…

  658. Wojtek has joined

  659. Zash

    You can contribute to the XEP without implementing it :)

  660. !XSF_Martin

    Obviously. 😃

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  663. Guus

    Interessed to see how spam will play out after jabber.org gets a new server.

  664. Guus

    Pretty much all spam that I receive comes through that.

  665. Guus

    I wonder how fast updated spam lists will circulate.

  666. Jeybe has left

  667. !XSF_Martin

    You receive spam on your JID there or from spammers using that server?

  668. Ge0rG

    Wasn't IBR disabled on j.o a decade ago?

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  670. Neustradamus

    Psi Stop Spam plugin is really good :)

  671. Neustradamus

    Since several years, I do not see spam messages

  672. Guus

    I receive spam on my j.o account. The senders are on other servers.

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  675. Neustradamus

    Guus: Same!

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  708. Ge0rG

    I've heard there are servers with sophisticated spam filters where the user doesn't need to do anything or solve captchas

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  713. Zash

    Rule #1 of spam fighting: Don't talk about rules of spam fighting

  714. pep.

    Are you a reflection of myself?

  715. Zash

    Rule #2 of fight club: Don't assume anyone remembers the plot of fight club

  716. jonas’

    Sam claims that the github permissions thing is confusing. Am I misreading this?

  717. jonas’


  718. jonas’

    below that, it shows a list of all orgs I’m part of

  719. jonas’

    how can I read that except "that software will gain +rw on all things I can see on github"?

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  721. pep.

    I think you read correctly

  722. pep.

    But maybe you can test for yourself with some oauth thing you build :x

  723. jonas’


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  725. Kev

    Yes, Github's lack of sensible roles is horrific.

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  731. Guus

    Isn't the go-to solution to create an account that has access only to the repository it needs to operate on?

  732. jonas’

    Guus, yes, that would be worth a shot I guess

  733. jonas’

    I won’t do that, and I won’t interact wtih that account though

  734. jonas’

    for reasons I’d rather not disclose here

  735. Guus

    sounds like something that iteam wants to weigh in before we do anything anyway.

  736. jonas’


  737. jonas’

    not that I’m not an iteam meamber ;)

  738. jonas’

    it seems like a useful thing to have, also for potential future automation tasks like commenting on issues or stuff

  739. Zash

    service accounts eh?

  740. jonas’

    they call it "machine accounts" in the ToS and you’re only allowed to have one per human

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  743. flow

    let's make babies then!

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  745. jonas’

    and it’s not quite clear to me if such a usage is a "machine account" or if you need more than just that

  746. jonas’

    flow, that sounds like quite a drastic solution to the problem

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  748. moparisthebest

    woah flow , what a proposal :P

  749. flow

    well cloning isn't feasiable yet, so?

  750. jonas’

    I’ll post that to the list, let’s see if Sam and Guus consider that too complicated, too ;)

  751. jonas’

    Guus actually might have first-hand experience on that.

  752. Guus

    I hear the latter can be annoying

  753. Zash

    I hear some here actually have a head start on that

  754. Guus

    Sam's pretty cool though.

  755. flow

    But serious: Not that it matters, but I would favor a single git repository hosting solution, preferably gitlab

  756. jonas’

    flow, *personally*, I’d also prefer to just switch over to gitlab, because it’s the easiest solution to the problem (for me, because I know GitLab CI from work and stuff, and what I’ve seen so far from GitHub Actions is not convincing me), but I hear the input from the others that it’ll be pretty disruptive for the community

  757. pep.

    flow, depending on how "human" is defined, they may only allow one per uniquely identifiable human(?) and thus discard cloning

  758. Daniel

    +1. If the editors think gitlab will help them do their job better we should just do that

  759. pep.

    ^ this (again)

  760. pep.

    Daniel stop agreeing with me today

  761. jonas’ notes that no consenting voices were seen on the mailing list

  762. Daniel

    I think that someone who edits a XEP should be able to setup a gitlab account

  763. flow

    pep., what about multiple personalities? do they count as uniquely identifiable human?

  764. Daniel

    It's not that hard

  765. flow

    pep., what about multiple personalities? do they count as uniquely identifiable humans?

  766. pep.

    yeah I also note that I haven't replied to the list

  767. pep.

    flow, I'll leave that for you to answer

  768. jonas’

    Daniel, someone off-list mentioned to me that there are concerns about getting a company to allow you to use $platform, and it’s more likely that $company has already allowed GitHub than GitLab

  769. Kev

    Daniel: It's not so much that they *can't*, as that it's effort, and we need to balance the cost of contributing with the cost of Editor work. And if that means GitLab, so be it - but it's a tradeoff rather than a straight win, I believe.

  770. flow

    Plus, as always, you are not required to created an gitlab account to submit protoxeps and patches

  771. pep.

    You are indeed not required

  772. pep.

    Sending patches to editors is always possible

  773. flow

    Plus, as always, you are not required to created a gitlab account to submit protoxeps and patches

  774. pep.

    I'm happy to do/encourage this (as an editor) if that means we can allow editors to move more easily

  775. Daniel

    *If* it comes down to not burning out our editors VS losing a contribution it'd rather take the former

  776. Daniel

    Because without editors we can't do anything

  777. Kev

    Daniel: I think that's the point I made on list.

  778. jonas’

    Thanks for the increasing amount of feedback here

  779. jonas’

    I’d really like to get to a point where editors can just hit "Merge when pipeline succeeds" if a change passes all editorial requirements; A simple button function which github doesn’t even have :(

  780. flow

    hmm merge trains are not avaialble on gitlab.com, aren't they?

  781. flow

    hmm merge trains are not avaialble on gitlab.com, are they?

  782. jonas’

    not for free, methinks

  783. jonas’

    haven’t used them either, are they cool?

  784. flow

    well if we'd host our own gitlab we could get a license where they are available

  785. flow

    jonas’, I consider merge trains and building merge results a deal breaker

  786. jonas’

    flow, that are two things right away which I’d not like us to have to

  787. jonas’

    (self-host and license)

  788. jonas’

    I’d prefer to buy the respective Tier at the SaaS offering

  789. flow

    Uh I probably should have written: I consider *not having* merge trains and building/CIing merge results a deal breaker

  790. jonas’

    (FTR, merge trains are, for both SaaS and self-hosted, on the second tier, i.e. $19/user/month)

  791. flow

    works for me, although I believe we could self-host

  792. jonas’

    what do you mean with "building/CIing merge results"?

  793. jonas’

    this one? https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/ci/merge_request_pipelines/pipelines_for_merged_results/index.html

  794. flow

    jonas’, MRs and PRs are usually build against the branchs HEAD, and not against the merge result of source and destination branch of the MR/PR

  795. flow

    jonas’, I think this, yes

  796. jonas’

    read up on it, sounds nice, but I don’t consider this a must-have

  797. jonas’

    not for xeps anyways, because it is very unlikely to have a fast-forward-able merge which breaks things

  798. flow

    I wouldn't want to miss it for software projects

  799. jonas’

    I can believe that

  800. jonas’

    but build-wise, XEPs are fairly independent from one another

  801. jonas’

    when merging two different changes on the same XEP, editors typically step in to handle the revision blocks manually anyways

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  803. flow

    jonas’, I think this mostly means that merge trains are not that interesting for the xeps repo, but not pipelines for merged results

  804. jonas’

    I think what I said also applies for pipelines for merged results

  805. flow

    those should always provide in advantage compared to the standard behavior or github PRs and gitlab MRs

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  807. flow

    assume we had linting in the XEPs repo, and you add a new lint check to master

  808. jonas’

    aha, yeah, that

  809. jonas’

    I see that one now

  810. flow

    assume we had linting to the XEPs repo, and you add a new lint check to master

  811. flow


  812. jonas’

    still I see it only as nice-to-have

  813. jonas’

    I mean we don’t have that on GitHub and we survived thus far

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  815. Zash

    The XSF got along before Github even

  816. jonas’

    also true

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  837. pep.

    "XSF, P.O. Box 1641, Denver, CO 80201 USA" Is there still anybody at the other end of this box? (reading the IPR)

  838. pep.

    "Version 1.4 (2008-01-23): Updated legal notices to use modified MIT License rather than Creative Commons Attribution License for the purpose of enabling wider distribution of XEP text and examples, including incorporation into free software; added Disclaimer of Warranty and Limitation of Liability." Does someody know the origin of this change?

  839. mukt2 has joined

  840. Zash

    Can you mail XEP patches there? :)

  841. Nekit has joined

  842. pep.

    Like some challenge?

  843. pep.

    I just "grepped" for "IPR" in all 2007's subjects on standards and found nothing. There seem to only be stpeter's email in January 2008 saying "it's done!"

  844. jonas’

    pep., IPR sounds more like a board matter

  845. jcbrand has left

  846. pep.

    Well yeah but somebody would have raised the issue somewhere else before

  847. pep.

    And then board taking action

  848. jonas’

    not if board figured out themselves that CC + FLOSS licenses don’t mix well

  849. pep.

    CC + FLOSS does mix :x and is probably more appropriate to stuff that isn't "software"

  850. pep.

    Just as MIT says

  851. werdan has joined

  852. jonas’

    pep., well, I recall that CC + FLOSS license mixing was not well understood in the 00s

  853. jonas’

    and people were cautious

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  857. pep.

    btw how does versioning of the IPR work? There doesn't seem to be anything in the document saying "and you also accept any change of this document". Does that mean everybody needs to resign? Or that some XEPs are served under a CC and some under a MIT-like license?

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  860. pep.

    (and "you also accept any change to this document" is not legal in some legislations anyway.. like France aiui)

  861. jonas’

    pep., AFAIK, all XEPs use the same IPR template

  862. pep.

    Yeah but you can't just change the terms of what people agree to if you don't say anything about it :x

  863. jonas’


  864. Kev

    That's why the policy is handing over IPR to the XSF, rather than licensing to the XSF.

  865. Kev

    (Or as close to it as a local jurisdiction allows)

  866. pep.

    I see. let me disgest that..

  867. pep.

    I see. let me digest that..

  868. Kev

    The contribution agreement isn't to license XEPs to the XSF, it's to give them.

  869. pep.

    hmm ok so CLA-like

  870. pep.

    jonas’, ^ so I doubt it's possible to do what we thought

  871. pep.

    (And yes it's actually handled as a CLA on github, but it's a bit confusing)

  872. jonas’

    I obviously don’t know what happened back then, but I suppose if we had to do it again, it’d be a mixture of getting people to re-sign + fixing the rendering so that the difference is clear

  873. Jeybe has joined

  874. pep.

    Well as I understand it now, resign wouldn't be necessary because you agreed to give ownership to the XSF (that can then change licenses over your work at will). In legislations where this is even possible

  875. pep.

    (which is probably not in France, still, but..)

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  877. pep.

    Thanks Kev, that helps.

  878. pep.

    Still curious why the last revision if anybody's got info

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  880. jonas’

    yeah, I hadn’t read that yet

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  882. jonas’

    I think in Germany, you can do that; contracts with employers typically have something similar

  883. mukt2 has left

  884. pep.

    hmm that's a good point. I don't know to what extent one can bend french law to make this a reality though

  885. mukt2 has joined

  886. pep.

    labor law*. I think it's also possible but I don't know if submitting a XEP would fall under labor law :P

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    hello cant get confirmation for jabber id

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