XSF Discussion - 2020-06-17

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  369. Daniel edhelas: JSXC does the same thing with the parameter values that's why I dug up the issue
  370. edhelas ok :)
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  388. flow re https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/715 (and https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/961): dwd summarized it nicely in the council meeting just a few minutes before. If we keep the xep30 requirement that there must be a disco#info feature in the response, then not adhering to it in examples appears to me not like omitting an optional feature, but omitting an required namespace declaration. Hence I feel like we have to choose one of either fixing the examples, or, removing the requirement
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  395. flow dwd's suggestion of "disco#info MAY be elided if other features are present" seems like a good compromise
  396. pep. I haven't read this part of the council meeting, but just reading this I'd say there are lots of non-compliants examples already and we're not taking steps to fix them. Disco examples will almost never be valid anyway due to omissions/ellipsis characters ("..."), making them invalid XMPP in the first place
  397. pep. Also, examples are non-normative
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  400. flow sure, but that doesn't mean we should not fix them if we can
  401. pep. I don't think modifying the spec in this case is necessary tbh
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  404. pep. I agree with jonas here, "-1, unless the author can find real-world issues which are solved by this PR."
  405. pep. Not non-normative examples
  406. pep. flow, so if I understand correctly, the issue is that the disco#info feature is missing from all these examples?
  407. pep. Add it? :P
  408. flow pep., that is what I tried first
  409. flow see pr #715
  410. pep. Right, hence jonas’ suggestion to use <!-- ... --> seems fine
  411. flow I think that is fine for optional features, but 'disco#info' is a required feature right now
  412. flow but yeah, I see how this is probably just me being pedantic
  413. pep. So you're going to go through all examples of all XEPs and fix XEPs accordingly? :/
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  415. pep. Instead of fixing examples
  416. Ge0rG flow: as was said repeatedly, adding all mandatory features into all XEP examples won't help anybody.
  417. Ge0rG but adding `<!-- ... -->` would actually improve readability (and also make sure that you can't just copy&paste everything from the example)
  418. pep. flow, tbh I'd also like if examples were correct. But I think that's a bit far fetched judging that it's already not valid XMPP anyway
  419. Ge0rG IIRC, when #751 was rejected, "add ... comments to examples" was the recommended way forward.
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  421. flow Ge0rG, I don't think there are many mandatory features at all
  422. flow right now, it's just one
  423. Ge0rG flow: yes, but even a few mandatory features distract from the feature that the respective example is about
  424. flow again, one, but I also would favor changing the xep30 requirement
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  428. Ge0rG flow: you are probably aware that this is not going to happen for a Final document.
  429. flow Besides I wonder how helpful the disco#info examples in XEPs really are. Seems very repetitive, but maybe that's only me having read a ton of XEPs,
  430. Ge0rG In my unchanged-for-the-last-two-years opinion, adding the disco#info feature to examples of other XEPs than 0030 is only going to distract the reader.
  431. pep. flow, tbh I also think they are mostly not necessary
  432. flow Ge0rG, that's just like your opinion, man
  433. pep. :D
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  435. pep. Just saying "this is a feature you should declare: XXX" should be more than enough
  436. flow pep., I was thinking about adding a example section to xep 30 that xeps could refer to, ideally this section would also forward the reader to xep30 caching mechanisms like xep115 and caps2
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  438. pep. yeah if you really want to, that may be good to have
  439. flow uh, and that
  440. flow uh, and that lebowski quote was meant as reply to modifying final xeps. I do agree, of course, that every unnecessary information is a distraction.
  441. Ge0rG so let's agree on this: there are many places in the XEPs that can be improved
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  444. jonas’ 16:30:04 flow> Ge0rG, that's just like your opinion, man
  445. jonas’ don’t use my moves to make me agree with you!!!
  446. jonas’ pep., it would indeed be nice if we had an overview, in each XEP, about the '30 features it defines with links to the text which explain them. that would also make stuff like the examples obsolete
  447. Ge0rG a feature registry!
  448. pep. Too early
  449. pep. Too soon
  450. Ge0rG if only we had xml in the XEP schema to define registry elements that could be pushed automatically
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  453. pep. You'd still need to document features, but yeah that'd be cool
  454. Ge0rG that magic xml could also automatically generate a well-formed example in the XEP
  455. Ge0rG ...where I'd still insist on the example containing <!-- ... --> instead of the disco#info feature
  456. pep. I'd rather have an element in the XEP to define disco features rather than a more involved example that's probably harder to parse and that can be regenerated via xslt aftewards
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  461. jonas’ pep., good idea actually
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  464. Zash indeed
  465. jonas’ we could extend xep.dtd and xep.xsl to support that
  466. pep. I still think these disco examples are useless nonetheless
  467. Zash we could 🥁️ use namespaced elements!
  468. jonas’ put a <disco:describes feature="..."/> element in a section, boom.
  469. Zash XEP Extension XEP?
  470. pep. Yo Zawgsh
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  478. Ge0rG yeah, I was thinking about a sort of a new custom element to define that.
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  552. pep. So I'm thinking about that minutes taking bot. What would we want it to do exactly? Would that really alleviate important work from the actual minute taker?
  553. pep. Seems easy to have the bot take motion results, start/end of a meeting, actions, but I don't really see it summarize everybody's opinions
  554. jonas’ I think to be useful it’d have to actually record motions and results
  555. pep. And the latter is to me the most important
  556. jonas’ there was that meetingbot...
  557. jonas’ IRC based, which seemed to be quite reasonable
  558. pep. Yeah I'm not looking for an implementation, just requirements
  559. pep. Trying to understand if it's just smoke and mirrors or if it's actually gonna be of use
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  562. pep. I'm looking at some examples outside of the XSF: - GNOME: guidelines: https://wiki.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes/Guidelines, example: https://wiki.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes/20200330, https://wiki.gnome.org/FoundationBoard/Minutes/20200413 - SPI: https://www.spi-inc.org/meetings/minutes/2020/2020-04-13/ https://www.spi-inc.org/meetings/minutes/2020/2020-03-09/
  563. pep. GNOME minutes seem pretty complete, everybody seems to participate in the writing, during the meeting, even if there is somebody (secretary or deputes) responsible for them
  564. pep. SPI minutes seem a bit poor to me. I know they use an irssi plugin to get vote results, but otherwise there's no reported chats in there
  565. pep. So.. while I'm happy to have a bot help with keeping track of decisions and stuff, to me that's not solving the issue
  566. pep. But I guess I'll make this point again tomorrow..
  567. pep. Or when a bot comes up
  568. Ge0rG One day, a bot will take over the XSF
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