XSF Discussion - 2020-06-18

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  68. dada hi
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  247. MattJ We have a board meeting in 1h40m... would appreciate someone to step up as minute-taker ahead of time so we don't spend half the meeting on that again
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  249. MattJ I have most of a bot implemented, but not going to suggest we rush to use it this week (it needs a little more polish)
  250. MattJ Answering the discussion from last night, no, the bot does not summarize discussions - many organisation minutes do not, and only record actual motions and other things explicitly requested to go on the record
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  252. MattJ So the bot does this, but with links to the discussion logs of each topic
  253. MattJ Which seems a fine compromise to me
  254. MattJ Summarizing discussions accurately is one of the hardest tasks of minute-taking
  255. MattJ We have the advantage that all our discussions are already in text form and recorded
  256. pep. probably most important
  257. pep. the whole point of minutes to me is for people not to have to read the logs
  258. MattJ I'd rather let people see the outcome, and give them access to the raw data, rather than filtering through some other person
  259. MattJ It's very easy for someone to introduce accidental bias this way (related problem: we don't explicitly approve minutes currently)
  260. pep. well yes that's why approving minutes is necessary
  261. Zash Standard practice afaik is to have one minute taker and two to verify and sign off on the minutes.
  262. MattJ We can't even find one person to write the minutes :)
  263. MattJ and this has been going on for years
  264. MattJ They aren't going to magically appear - and we've tried alternatives (thanks nyco) where everyone collaborates on them, that didn't really work either though
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  267. jonas’ I’ll be stuck in a work meeting until 15:00Z, sorry
  268. MattJ np jonas’
  269. pep. MattJ: I was on the pad helping nyco a bit. maybe if we'd all done so..
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  272. MattJ Sure, maybe if many things
  273. MattJ If we collectively think that's the solution, I'm not opposed to trying it again
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  286. jcbrand IMO, the XSF should consider paying for certain roles/positions that we continuously struggle to get volunteers for (touchy subject I know)
  287. pep. jcbrand: I agree
  288. jcbrand Or provide some other kinds of incentive, but I can't imagine what... swag?
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  291. jcbrand Or provide some other kind of incentive, but I can't imagine what... swag?
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  295. pep. either that, or board takes responsability for it and we all contribute (we've agreed about one way to do this last week but there might be others)
  296. MattJ *shrug*
  297. MattJ Personally I strongly feel that a bot is the best approach
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  299. MattJ I think I'm alone in that though
  300. Seve MattJ: I'm with you on this, I agree on all you have said
  301. jcbrand Someone needs to write a bot then
  302. MattJ As above, I have one almost completed (but not ready to use this week)
  303. MattJ and I'm not going to attempt to push it on the group if everyone else is against it
  304. jcbrand ah sorry
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  308. jcbrand You could just enable it silently and then show everyone the awesome minutes that it takes
  309. jcbrand and then bask in glory
  310. MattJ Yeah, have pondered that :)
  311. flow jcbrand, do we have enough income to pay someone? how much could we pay someone? do we have someone who manages our funds?
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  314. Zash The IETF, while a fair bit larger than the XSF, does hire out administrative tasks to a company.
  315. Seve We have the raw data, and the outcome with the bot. It is perfect, less layers to access to what has happened. I have nothing more to say to what it has been already said by MattJ. I see it as a perfect fit.
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  318. Guus (Don't have time to read back, but I have no strong feelings either way about using a bot)
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  321. MattJ Hopefully by next week I'll have the bot polished off and some docs written, and then I'll propose that we switch to it
  322. jcbrand flow: Last I heard there are funds, although the XSF could definitely make more of an effort to woo sponsors
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  326. jcbrand The point is not to make someone rich or to provide a full-time job, but to at least make the task more palatable
  327. flow jcbrand, we sure have funds, but what can be spend on reappearing payments? also I think before we can seriously consider payming someone, we should look for a treasurer, cause I am not sure if PSA has the time to take care of that
  328. MattJ Did I mention I'll be offering the bot for a small fee?
  329. MattJ (muahaaha, etc.)
  330. jcbrand haha
  331. jcbrand If it's a once-off fee, then it's better than paying a human to do it
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  333. jcbrand flow my understanding is that the XSF has been sitting on cash for year, not really doing anything with it
  334. Guus flow we do have a treasurer, Peter.
  335. jcbrand flow my understanding is that the XSF has been sitting on cash for years, not really doing anything with it
  336. flow Guus, I know, but only beause of our search for a new treasurer did not yield any results.
  337. Guus I have no inclination to dismiss his work or to assume that he's not able to perform in that role.
  338. pep. Guus: il sure that's not what flow is saying
  339. pep. Guus: i'm sure that's not what flow is saying
  340. Guus no, we searched for a new Executive Officer (which was also Peter). We never searched for a new Treasurer, afiak.
  341. flow Guus, no, not at all, but I think that peter would actually be happy if someone else would fill that role
  342. MattJ Was just typing what Guus said
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  345. flow Guus, we searched for a treasurer in 2015: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2015-July/008117.html
  346. Guus I did not know that. But, since, Peter was asked to stand for another year repeatedly, and has never objected or mentioned he'd prefer someone else took over.
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  349. flow I'd speculate that this caused by a mix of it being currently not that mutch work (I assume) and the expectation that there is no one to step in
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  351. Guus Hey, if he does want someone else to take over, I'm perfectly happy to search for someone else. I'd just not postpone any other activity in the assumption that we need to refill the Treasurer role, as the person that's currently in that role did not give any indication that that's relevant.
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  353. flow My suggestion would be to ask peter of he is still willing to act as treasurer if we increase the workload
  354. flow that's all
  355. Guus right, we're more aligned than it initially appeared to me. 🙂
  356. Guus I don't think Peter will be silent if the work load becomes more than he's happy with.
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  359. MattJ I'll just prep another plugin for the bot in that case ;)
  360. Zash Heh, I was going to suggest that. Bots are better with numbers after all :P
  361. MattJ Yes, Lua has great floating point support
  362. MattJ What could go wrong?
  363. MattJ !spend €400
  364. pep. fwiw I have suggested going through SPI before (to handle finance, and they also provide legal council etc.), to stpeter at least, maybe that's something we can think about
  365. MattJ Actually that would be something I could get behind if necessary
  366. pep. They don't do minute taking yet
  367. Guus I wonder how much autonomy we give up by going through a party like SPI. I have yet to look into that deeper.
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  385. pep. !
  386. Seve Hello, all good?
  387. MattJ Hello :)
  388. Guus
  389. MattJ ralphm, ?
  390. MattJ (or is this a week he sent apologies?)
  391. Guus did he? I missed it if he did.
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  393. MattJ Seems not
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  395. MattJ Ok, I can step up if ralphm is absent
  396. Guus please do
  397. pep. k
  398. MattJ 0) Role call
  399. Seve Very appreciated
  400. Guus ROLE!
  401. MattJ ;)
  402. pep. !
  403. Guus (sorry)
  404. Seve says hi
  405. MattJ Let's start with
  406. MattJ 1) Topics for decisions
  407. Guus somethignsomethingminutes
  408. MattJ 1.1) Reevaluate the process for accepting XEP contributions
  409. MattJ Looks like https://trello.com/c/Y4Bfcnr3/399-reevaluate-the-process-for-accepting-xep-contributions from jonas’
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  412. MattJ (I'll send out minutes after the meeting)
  413. pep. Thanks
  414. Guus Jonas asks if we got legal council on the necessity of the (CLA) process.
  415. Guus I do not know.
  416. Seve Hate to say this but neither do I
  417. Guus I was involved in setting up the CLA bot, but only because it was a pending issue ('to-be-done')
  418. pep. What was before github?
  419. Guus I've looked back in my personal mail archive, but couldn't find much of a motive for this.
  420. pep. And how did people agree to the IPR
  421. Guus no, that was on github.
  422. MattJ I think it was implicit before Github
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  424. pep. I'm asking about before github
  425. MattJ Not sure if the editor kept any records, not that I'm aware (but stpeter would know)
  426. pep. (lag?)
  427. MattJ None of us are lawyers, though in my experience a lawyer's opinion on something like this tends to usually just be an opinion and "maybe"
  428. Seve Who can we reach to resolve "Q1"? (Actually confirm if we can ignore that step from the process)
  429. Guus I think we'll not get an answer with the people in this meeting. 🙂 Let's find someone who was involved at the time?
  430. MattJ Obviously having an explicit ack from the contributor is good for our records, should an issue arise
  431. Seve Yes..
  432. MattJ If we don't have that, I can see it being problematic if there ever was a dispute
  433. pep. jonas’ and I can go through standard discussions about switching to github and we may find why/who decided
  434. pep. But getting hints from someone who knows would be good
  435. pep. MattJ, sure but ACKs can take different forms
  436. MattJ Sure
  437. Guus oh, shoot.
  438. Guus I'm only now reading the rest of Jonas' question
  439. MattJ I'd be fine with any alternative to the bot if that's what we want
  440. Guus it was below a fold in trello
  441. Guus (reading)
  442. jonas’ 13:39:04 pep.> And how did people agree to the IPR email
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  444. jonas’ 13:39:44 MattJ> Not sure if the editor kept any records, not that I'm aware (but stpeter would know) I kept records for all users which did it via email
  445. jonas’ (with me)
  446. MattJ Also, I may not be up to date on the latest on this thread, but I think we may not necessarily be moving off Github anyway?
  447. jonas’ (there were one or two cases since I became editor which were handled via email)
  448. MattJ jonas’, thanks, good to know
  449. jonas’ MattJ, clabot is a blocker for moving off gitlab, and I’m swaying towards "do a hybrid solution as a testballoon, long term Gitlab primary"
  450. jonas’ MattJ, clabot is a blocker for moving off github, and I’m swaying towards "do a hybrid solution as a testballoon, long term Gitlab primary"
  451. MattJ I'd be more comfortable if we kept an explicit IPR acknowledgement from contributors about IPR, I'm absolutely fine with any solution for that
  452. pep. As an editor I'd also prefer if we didn't have two venues as a long term goal
  453. Guus I think that getting clarification from a lawyer on this is both costly and time-consuming.
  454. Guus I'd suggest to find a way to not make this issue a blocker for other editor-process improvements.
  455. jonas’ ok, so let’s skip the "did we get counsel" and move on to "what do you think about my proposed alternatives"
  456. jonas’ (please read the card until the bottom :))
  457. MattJ I'm fine with the proposed alternatives
  458. jonas’ Q2 specifically :)
  459. MattJ As you say, this is all info made public on contribution anyway
  460. Seve I like that is based on git
  461. MattJ Lawyers hate it ;)
  462. Seve heh :)
  463. MattJ GDPR issues, if someone wanted to be forgotten
  464. jonas’ I’d like to have Board-ack on the option in Q2. Though we could also find a way to make the list non-public if board is uncomfortable with having a blatant list of PII world-readable on gitlab
  465. Seve Good point
  466. MattJ But I consider that a rare enough event that we can cross that bridge when/if we ever need to
  467. pep. Yeah.. I'm happy with sign-off but I'd like legal council tbh. It's not like we hadn't had contributions from companies with money in the past that could actually use this against us
  468. jonas’ note that right for deletion is guarded by technical feasibility, only the right to rectification is unconditional.
  469. MattJ If anything, part of the acknowledgement should be that their info will be public in our repos
  470. jonas’ true
  471. MattJ So make that explicit, and I'm in
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  473. jonas’ maybe Board can make a motion on that :)
  474. jonas’ and then I’ll do things
  475. Guus I don't want to vote on things now.
  476. Guus I desperately want more feedback on this
  477. jonas’ (and I’m back in my $work meeting)
  478. MattJ Feedback from?
  479. MattJ Thanks jonas’
  480. Guus at least from (seniors in the) community, and possibly legal council.
  481. MattJ What exactly concerns you?
  482. Guus I don't like changing things that I'm unsure of why they were put in place in the first place.
  483. MattJ CLAs are quite common
  484. Guus as pep. hinted, legal repercussions _might_ be severe.
  485. MattJ and their purpose is well understood
  486. MattJ I don't understand
  487. MattJ There are two questions here... 1) do we need a CLA? 2) how do we process the CLA?
  488. MattJ My answers are (1) yes (2) however we want to
  489. Seve I just see moving from confirming on an email to a commit message? (excluding the clabot)
  490. MattJ clabot is not mandated by lawyers
  491. MattJ Most won't even know what it is
  492. MattJ It's just a convenient thing someone made
  493. pep. My answers are (1) maaaybe? and (2) We should get legal council to confirm that method is fine
  494. MattJ So if you're concerned about moving away from that, I don't think that's justified
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  497. Guus Right - I'm a lot less uncomfortable if we're not discussing the necessity of a CLA.
  498. MattJ I'm quite sure we didn't get legal counsel on whether clabot was acceptable
  499. Guus I'm happy to use another technical ways to replace clabot.
  500. Guus (to do the exact same thing, record the CLA)
  501. MattJ Plenty of other orgs do CLAs through other means, some insist on written signed forms
  502. pep. MattJ, re clabot, being a commonly used service I'd hope they have had legal council themselves, or they've been put to the test already.
  503. MattJ Many lawyers will probably will tell you that's necessary
  504. MattJ You only have to convince a court that someone had agreed to the IPR terms
  505. pep. I think I can draw a parallel to security here. Put as many resources to protect against what you think you'll have to face
  506. MattJ If we don't have any process, and it's implicit, I think that's very hard
  507. pep. I think I can draw a parallel to security here. Put as much resources to protect against what you think you'll have to face
  508. MattJ If we have any kind of paper trail, then we're good
  509. MattJ (and paper includes email in this case)
  510. MattJ e.g. that's one concern - if we migrate off Github do we lose the CLAs of previous contributors?
  511. MattJ Ok, we're approaching full time
  512. Guus cla-assistent lets you export them, if memory serves
  513. MattJ Looks like we don't have enough to vote on, but maybe folks can think about this issue more and we can vote next week
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  518. Kev FWIW, as I remember the history here, we used to assert that just having submitted a commit was sufficient (that the contribution to the repo itself was enough). A prior board decided there had to be an explicit step added, so an explicit step was added.
  519. pep. Guus, I'm curious to know if an export is sufficient in court. Or if cla-assistant signs it or something
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  522. Seve Kev, thank you
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  524. Kev I think that's about the extent of what happened. I don't *believe* the Board got counsel, but I might be wrong.
  525. Guus Thanks Kev
  526. MattJ Ok, I don't see anything else on the agenda that's new, pressing, or that we'd have time to discuss, so I propose we close here
  527. pep. k
  528. Guus ok
  529. MattJ 2) Time of next
  530. MattJ +1W
  531. MattJ 3) Close
  532. MattJ Thanks all
  533. Guus wfm
  534. Guus Thanks
  535. pep. Thanks
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  537. Seve Thank you MattJ !
  538. Seve It really helps to know that, thank you Kev
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  540. Kev It's just my migraine-addled memory, I wouldn't take it as gospel :)
  541. Seve Haha
  542. Kev I mean, the first part is definitely (as sure as I can be) right. We used to just assert that by contribuing a XEP that said in it (once XSL was applied) that it was owned by the XSF that meant the author was assigning ownership to the XSF, and it was definitely decided to change that because it wasn't deemed safe.
  543. Kev The details of the decision process during the change are a bit fuzzier for me.
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  554. Guus tx
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  575. jonas’ Thanks Board
  576. jonas’ that was useful as a guideline
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  578. jonas’ The rough consensus that we do want a process which gets us an affirmative ACK is already important to me. Replacing CLAbot as a tool I don’t think is a problem in general, since it can’t do any magic either.
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  580. jonas’ We’ll find a similarly powerful replacement for the GitLab platform, the process I outlined would be an example of that.
  581. jonas’ regarding exporting the "signatures" of cla-assistant, I don’t think that’s of much use since they’re tied to github users, which is not quite a thing on GitLab ;)
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  583. jonas’ though I guess we can restore some manually (and I’d be happy to) for the common contributors so they don’t have to go through the hassle; in the end, the cardinality of authors is rather low
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  585. pep. jonas’, they're useful though as a proof that existing contributors have ACK'd
  586. Zash Assuming it's only a one-time thing maybe that's okay as a way to test that it's not too annoying then?
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  590. jonas’ Zash, what would be okay?
  591. jonas’ (dangling reference in "that's okay as a way")
  592. Zash in-reply-to: "though I guess we can restore some [clabot signatures] [...] for the common contributors so they don’t have to go through the hassle"
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  594. jonas’ Zash, so you would not do that to check with the common contributors if the process looks alright?
  595. pep. Yeah I'm also fine with re-signing. It's only a one-time thing anyway
  596. pep. yeah
  597. jonas’ I see
  598. pep. It's one less (legally?) error-prone thing for editors to do as well
  599. jonas’ indeed
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  601. Zash jonas’, I got the impression that we might find a replacement clabot thing. if that turns out too annoying to subject previous contributors to, then isn't it too annoying?
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  603. jonas’ very true
  604. jonas’ good point you make
  605. Kev Of the barriers that might be present in moving to gitlab purely for me, I wouldn't think going through the CLABot process again that problematic (assuming it was no harder than the current one).
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  607. Kev (Other aspects might be, but not that one)
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  609. Zash or "if that turns out so annoying that it's worth it to try to export previous data, then"
  610. Zash vacation mode. brain turned off.
  611. pep. disregarding of whether we want to restore ACKs, do we not have to keep an export?
  612. pep. disregarding whether we want to restore ACKs, do we not have to keep an export?
  613. Zash could argue that it's implied in the merging of the PR
  614. pep. It was already decided to go with explicit ACK (and I agree with that)
  615. Zash if you assume in good faith that the bot did its job
  616. jonas’ I’d still want an export for safety
  617. pep. Though I'm not sure I understand your sentence, Zash
  618. jonas’ if github folds, we don’t have a record of what happened in the PR
  619. jonas’ and that clabot required anythign
  620. pep. that
  621. jonas’ and that clabot required anything
  622. pep. Though we'll always be dependent on github anyway..
  623. pep. Because if they fold we lose the identity provider
  624. pep. (for these signatures)
  625. pep. We'd need to ensure the export contains email addresses rather
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  627. pep. (and then we'd only depend on gmail)
  628. Zash What's that, identity is Hard? :)
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  631. jonas’ I created an export and it does not include the email
  632. jonas’ it only includes user name + id
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  638. Kev I'm not sure we need the email, I suspect we /do/ need the name.
  639. pep. I'd say we need something that binds to an identity. I doubt "we" (the XSF) need to know the full legal name. Just like I never gave that to github
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  645. jonas’ > Using emojis in names seems fun, but please try to set a status message instead pah, gitlab.
  646. jonas’ (I do appreciate that they have a separate error message for that though :))
  647. !XSF_Martin Pah, XMPP… It also doesn't allow emoji in nicks.
  648. pep. "It depends"
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  650. !XSF_Martin On what?
  651. jonas’ on how lenient things are in enforcing or on how RFC 7622 they are
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  802. vanitasvitae how good is XEP-0238: Moved adopted in clients?
  803. vanitasvitae I mean, are there many clients implementing that XEP?
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  824. Neustradamus vanitasvitae: the XEP is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html