XSF Discussion - 2020-06-23

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  297. edhelas https://blog.riot.im/the-world-is-changing/
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  299. MattJ The most interesting part of that is that they are merging the brand of Riot (open-source client) with the brand of their commercial stuff
  300. Zash How's this of relevance to XMPP?
  301. pep. > We’re in a terrible position if someone forks Riot using the same or similar name and logo, makes some dubious changes, and we can’t take action to persuade the app stores to remove it. "boohoo I can't sue people for reusing my name".
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  303. Ge0rG > a certain large games company that has consistently blocked us from being able to trademark Riot or even Riot.im what an asshole move, just blocking out somebody who came after you and wanted to make use of your name!
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  306. pep. yeah that's awful
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  308. Ge0rG funny background story: that certain large games company used XMPP for match-making in their well-known online game, and there once was a third-party closed-source in-game-chat app, clone of a FLOSS/GPL xmpp client, that included artwork from the game. A certain FLOSS justice warrior inquired both the original xmpp client developers and riot to Do Something Because of Copyright Violation, and both parties just didn't care.
  309. Zash https://technology.riotgames.com/search?search=xmpp :)
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  311. pep. Isn't that Riot Games contributing to XMPP by preventing Matrix Riot from being a thing? :P
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  319. Ge0rG pep.: yeah, the irony is overwhelming
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  377. debacle Ge0rG What does "match-making" mean?
  378. Zash Finding other people to play with?
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  424. debacle Zash I see. The only computer game I play once in a while is https://screenshots.debian.net/package/aisleriot - that's how social I am!
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  438. lovetox do we have diff service between 2 xep versions?
  439. lovetox or how are you guys doing that
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  442. Neustradamus lovetox: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/412 :)
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  444. Neustradamus lovetox: You can comment on it, add an emoji...
  445. Neustradamus But for the moment: http://www.aptest.com/standards/htmldiff/htmldiff.pl?oldfile=https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/xep-XXXX-X.X.X.html&newfile=https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/xep-XXXX-X.X.X.html
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  451. lovetox thanks Neustradamus
  452. lovetox flow, care to elaborate on your change in 0373 regarding notification-only nodes
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  455. lovetox why is the metadata node now payload less
  456. lovetox as i see it this would prevent me from knowing if keys have changed
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  458. jonas’ lovetox, XEP diffs may be viable with gitlab-based infrastructure (or when someone smarter than me figures out all the equivalents in github)
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  460. lovetox ok jonas’ nice, you have all my support on your gitlab endeavor !
  461. lovetox tell me if i should bribe someone
  462. jonas’ note the "may" in the sentence ;)
  463. Zash I've got stuff based on conversion to markdown before diffing, but that's of course unusable to anyone else.
  464. jonas’ lovetox, another way would be to spin up a service which does html diffs on demand on the server which also runs xmpp.net; it should have some resources left
  465. jonas’ lovetox, that would "just" need someone who puts such a service in a docker container d)
  466. jonas’ lovetox, that would "just" need someone who puts such a service in a docker container :)
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  472. moparisthebest * a wild awk user appears to challenge jonas’ mastery of doing things that shouldn't be done with command line tools https://github.com/rethab/awk-jvm *
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  475. jonas’ *twitch*
  476. jonas’ moparisthebest, it’s your fault if everything stalls now while I create a similar insanity in sed
  477. moparisthebest rubs hands evilly
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  480. jonas’ though for this complexity, I’d probably first have to complete my assembly-to-sed compiler
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  503. DebXWoody :-D A="xep-0045-1.29";B="xep-0045-1.30"; wget https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/${A}.html; wget https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/${B}.html; w3m ${A}.html>${A}.txt;w3m ${B}.html>${B}.txt; vimdiff ${A}.txt ${B}.txt
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  507. DebXWoody It would be nice to have the current version in the same style like the attic files.
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  510. jonas’ DebXWoody, I don’t follow, what do you mean regarding the style?
  511. pep. DebXWoody, with a version appended?
  512. pep. That would require proposed changed to be in the attic though, to answer lovetox's comment
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  515. DebXWoody jonas’, The files in https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic looks different like the https://xmpp.org/extensions/ (e.g. table of content). The diff of current and the attic html file is not working well
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  517. pep. ah
  518. Zash This be why you'd wanna compare the source XML, not the output HTML
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  521. flow lovetox, the node id will tell you if you have the latest item of that node
  522. jonas’ DebXWoody, ah, that’s true, but only for older XEPs
  523. jonas’ *older revisions
  524. jonas’ unfortunately, we have no technically feasible way to re-render the old versions
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  527. jonas’ (in some cases, I don’t think we even have the XML of the old versions anymore, since that might be pre-git)
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  530. lovetox flow what ID?
  531. flow err item id
  532. jonas’ lovetox, pubsub item id
  533. lovetox you dont mandate anything about the ID
  534. Zash "current" \o/
  535. lovetox the id could be "current" for all notifications
  536. flow IIRC xep60 does
  537. lovetox no it doesnt
  538. flow I think it does
  539. Zash > The publishing entity SHOULD set the PubSub item ID to the time the item is published encoded as DateTime format specified in XEP-0082.
  540. Zash That?
  541. flow no xep60
  542. lovetox Zash thats not the node we are talking about
  543. flow something along the lines that if no item id is set, then the service should create a unique one
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  546. lovetox flow why do you think there is no item id set
  547. Zash Where?
  548. lovetox does your XEP mandate that it is imperativ that NO item id is iset
  549. lovetox no?
  550. lovetox so then this whole approach just does not work
  551. jonas’ flow, what lovetox says is relevant, since PEP stuff typically will use id='current'
  552. jonas’ since that has numerous advantages
  553. flow happy to clarify that current shouldn't be use for the metadata node
  554. flow happy to clarify that current shouldn't be used for the metadata node
  555. flow but I wasn't aware that PEP mandates the use of 'current' as item id in the spec
  556. lovetox hm would not really make me happy, did you think about what that means for clients now?
  557. lovetox this means i have to have a database of all contacts and the last item id i saw from them
  558. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html > if [the] publish request did not include [an] item ID, pubsub service MUST generate item ID
  559. lovetox just to know if something changed
  560. flow lovetox, you don't have to, you can also fetch the keys from all contacts everytime you connect
  561. Zash Huh but it varies
  562. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#table-4
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  564. jonas’ I swear this table wasn’t there the last time I read xep60
  565. flow that's the curse of xep60
  566. flow everytime you read it, something new appears
  567. jonas’ we should read it more often
  568. jonas’ maybe we’ll get the perfect eierlegendewollmilchsau spec then
  569. jonas’ because it evolves on its own
  570. flow wouldn't that only make that monstrosity bigger?
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  572. Zash what if it grows by a rate determined by its size?
  573. Zash and most other XEPs are too small to grow on their own
  574. jonas’ a panxepic?
  575. lovetox flow, it really unfortunate how you push such a change to the XEP, without any implementor requesting something like that
  576. jonas’ lovetox, Experimental.
  577. lovetox the pro and cons where never discussed
  578. lovetox you just heard of that fancy 0060 feature and decided, hey i will use that
  579. flow lovetox, I did not publish any substantial changes, plus it is experimental, plus I don't see the problem
  580. lovetox i tell you now it sucks
  581. flow lovetox, I did not publish any substantial changes, plus it is experimental, plus I don't see the problem witht he current version
  582. flow care to elaborate? I am happy to discuss it
  583. lovetox i just told you
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  585. flow that you have to remember the last item id of the metadata node per contact?
  586. flow what is the alternative?
  587. Zash The über-basic PEP implementation in Prosody that I don't think anyone uses defaults the item id to "1" :)
  588. Neustradamus It is good to talk about old problems :)
  589. lovetox are you saying your XEP was not working before this change?
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  591. lovetox because that is the alternativ
  592. lovetox im not sure why you changed that at all, many xeps use metadata nodes, and you made it a metadata node, that sends notification without payload, so meta meta
  593. flow well before you had to remember the set of openpgp key fingerprints, now it's only a single item id
  594. lovetox and now we have to store more data
  595. Zash Newer one seems to use UUIDv4
  596. lovetox are you saying your change makes it so that i am now able to not store any public keys?
  597. flow lovetox, I am sorry, I do not understand that question, could you rephrase it please?
  598. lovetox > well before you had to remember the set of openpgp key fingerprints,
  599. lovetox this sentence implies i dont have to store public keys anymore
  600. jonas’ so as I see it, lovetox’ problem is that before the change, a client would get pushed the full key fingerprints. no persistence of that required and you can use the local gpg keyring for persistence of the keys. after the change, you now need to remember the item ID per contact and you need an extra roundtrip to obtain the fingerprints, and then another roundtrip to download the keys.
  601. jonas’ this however buys a saving of bandwidth.
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  603. lovetox yes thanks for the summary
  604. flow jonas’, I think you could still simply not store the fingerprints, and instead pull them
  605. flow before the change, one could argue that you got the fingerprints pushed
  606. flow but if you really do not want to remember the last item id, nothing prevents you from pulling them
  607. jonas’ except that pulling is more expensive
  608. lovetox ok im out
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  611. jonas’ but it’s opt-in
  612. jonas’ so it’s a trade-off
  613. flow that design, and especially the tradeoff inovled, appeared sensible to me. but if there is some follow up discussion required, then please start one on standards@ and if there is consensus that this not the "right" way then we can change it (again, it is an experimental XEP)
  614. jonas’ (and by opt-in I mean you can easily do it selectively for the most recent/important contacts, while you cannot +notify for only a few contacts)
  615. jonas’ (though you could explicitly subscribe, hm)
  616. flow that design, and especially the tradeoff involved, appeared sensible to me. but if there is some follow up discussion required, then please start one on standards@ and if there is consensus that this not the "right" way then we can change it (again, it is an experimental XEP)
  617. jonas’ flow, I do see some merit in discussing changes in Experimental XEPs with deployments with the community though
  618. jonas’ even though you’re the author
  619. jonas’ MattJ gave us a very good example of that with the recent MAM changes
  620. flow sure, when the xep was initially developed we held monthly meetings
  621. flow but to be frank, I did not the changes to be that significant. I can see now that others may feel different
  622. flow but to be frank, I did not consider the changes to be that significant. I can see now that others may feel different
  623. jonas’ it is significant, because a client running the old code will be confused about the empty notifications *and* its pep implementation may choose item IDs (e.g. 'current') which break things
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  626. flow it was underspecified if the notification is with or without payload, so any implementation assumption about it could be argued to be wrong
  627. pep. So this is a "clarification" :p
  628. flow furthermore, I don't see a discussion about 'current' in xep163, did I miss it?
  629. jonas’ "clarification" should be a taboo-word
  630. pep. Indeed
  631. flow and even if there was one, it was also not specified if singleton nodes are used or not, so the same applies here
  632. jonas’ flow, it’s in '60 even
  633. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#impl-singleton
  634. jonas’ I thought this was just PEP
  635. flow jonas’, I was searching for a place which told me that pep nodes are considered to be singletons
  636. flow I am aware of the singleton specification in xep60
  637. jonas’ oh, that they most certainly are not
  638. pep. Not all PEP nodes are singletons are they
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  641. jonas’ as I said
  642. pep. But lots are
  643. jonas’ true
  644. Neustradamus https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/966 already closed, strange about publication date problem!
  645. pep. Neustradamus, yes I closed it. Who cares
  646. pep. jonas’ explained it to you already
  647. Neustradamus It is not in the ticket
  648. pep. I summarized it in there
  649. Neustradamus But the problem is always here
  650. pep. The problem is in your head
  651. Neustradamus No
  652. Neustradamus The change has been few days ago, not in 2018.
  653. Neustradamus A best example of chronology problem
  654. flow I guess due git, some (most?) developers are aware that "events" sometimes do not happen in a chronological order
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  656. flow sure, the a xep revision history is not the log of a vcs, but still
  657. flow sure, a xep revision history is not the log of a vcs, but still
  658. jonas’ I explained in more detail what happened in the ticket just now, Neustradamus
  659. jonas’ Neustradamus, I know that we have a language barrier, and thinking further, in this case you are right about pointing it out.
  660. jonas’ We cannot fix it anymore though, "the ship has sailed".
  661. jonas’ (if someone who shares a native language with Neustradamus would translate the thing I just commented on the issue, I’d be grateful: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/966#issuecomment-648374775 )
  662. Zash At least nobody yells at me when I rebase things from 3 years ago and publish them without touching the date.
  663. jonas’ in this case, it can actually cause problems with editor tooling which goes by the date of the most recent revision
  664. jonas’ if that’s not monotonic, incorrect deferrals will happen
  665. jonas’ not a problem in this specific case, since both changes are merely editorial
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  668. flow jonas’, btw your summary above was not entirely correct. even before the change, you could not rely on the persistence of the OpenPGP implementation, as, and yes that not frequently done but nevertheless happens, a master key could, for example, get new subkeys
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  671. jonas’ uh, that’s a no fun edge case
  672. flow and I think that with the current state, you don't have to remember the the item id, but it makes things easier and more reliable
  673. flow not sure if I would describe it as edge case, openpgp impls are able to deal with it today too
  674. jonas’ but you need to poll keyservers to make it work ;)
  675. pep. yeah and you might not want to link OX with keyservers
  676. flow pep., don't want to and don't need to
  677. flow the link with the keyservers is established by the key's fingerprint
  678. Zash Aren't keyservers dead now?
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  680. jonas’ in this case, the PEP node is the keyserver
  681. flow otoh since the openpgp keyserver network is somewhat partioned…
  682. flow Zash, down to one operator
  683. flow not completely dead
  684. flow and there is always the keyserver from openpgp.org
  685. Zash Dead and replaced by web. Yay!
  686. jonas’ much less useful though since you can’t publish signatures anymore
  687. jonas’ (or if you can, it’s dead ;))
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  689. flow jonas’, depends on your point of view. I do think that the web of trust was a good nor workable idea, and I also do not like to publish my signatures for everyone to see
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  691. flow for one, it makes it easier to trace the contacts I had, and on the other hand I am not sure what anyone would want to do with that information (which bridges back to the "WOT was a terrible idea" thought)
  692. pep. Yeah, publishing my whole contact network is not one of my favorite hobbies either
  693. flow but I'll admit that I'd liked the idea of the WoT when I created my first OpenPGP key 20 years ago ;)
  694. jonas’ signatures are useful even without considering WoT when you migrate keys
  695. jonas’ and by migrate, I mean roll over
  696. flow ok, that's one example where publishing a signature is sensible
  697. jonas’ or when you have separate keys for organizations you’re affiliated with, which you sign with your personal master key
  698. flow not sure if there are other examples, maybe
  699. pep. jonas’, I made the "mistake" to use a single key for all, now it seems I'm "stuck" with all these identities (keyservers won't remove them)
  700. flow hmm cross siging is double edged sword, I am not sure about it
  701. flow pep., keyservers can't remove them (I think)
  702. jonas’ pep., yeah, I was luckily smart enough about that
  703. jonas’ or the company was
  704. pep. yeah which is terrible. But then thinking that you don't have to authenticate to push a key anyway..
  705. pep. (I think?)
  706. jonas’ they want a revocation certificate from each employees (work) gpg keys :)
  707. flow pep., keys.gnupg.net has mail based authentication
  708. flow err no
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  710. flow I mean keys.openpgp.org of course
  711. pep. My previous company didn't care about GPG at all, it was just me using it because I wanted
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  714. jonas’ (of course, anyone looking at my gpg key sees immediately that I wasn’t that smart enough at all times)
  715. jonas’ pep., you can do a key rollover though, like I did some time back from RSA 2048 to RSA 4096. since you’ll be re-creating everything anyways, you can split your identities there, to
  716. jonas’ pep., you can do a key rollover though, like I did some time back from RSA 2048 to RSA 4096. since you’ll be re-creating everything anyways, you can split your identities there, too
  717. flow well you shouldn't need to be smart to use crypto
  718. jonas’ flow, yeah, user agents can do a lot here
  719. jonas’ but you need a bit of smartness to not use your personal email for work stuff, too ;)
  720. jonas’ same thing, really
  721. pep. it's a bit more complex when your work involves free software stuff to which you also contribute in your free time :x
  722. pep. And if you switch jobs you'll continue working on it in your new job anyway :p
  723. pep. Might as well keep the same identity within the project
  724. jonas’ oh, I like to keep that strictly separated actually
  725. jonas’ reminds me that I still have that PR open which I can’t work on at $workplace anymore…
  726. pep. I managed to do it for like a week, have separate profiles and all on my laptop, and then I gave up..
  727. jonas’ I have a different laptop. helps :)
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  734. DebXWoody It's possible to export your key like this: gpg --export --export-options export-minimal --export-filter 'keep-uid=uid =~ xmpp:local@domain.tld' MY_FINGERPRINT > /tmp/test.gpg There are no signatures in the export and there is just the xmpp-URI as UID.
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  736. DebXWoody If you do not prefer to use WoT you can use trust-model TOFO. This can be used for "non-technical" users. But the WoT doesn't mean you must publish the key via keyserver or to publish the "full" key to the keyserver. It's also possible to share the public key with signatures afterwards. I prefer to use a dedicated key just for signing.
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  739. flow DebXWoody, I refer to the idea that the information that I signed another person's key is of any use to you as the wot. And I think the idea is simply flawed
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  750. Neustradamus https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/966#issuecomment-648399750
  751. jonas’ We do not have an official publication date.
  752. jonas’ Show me where some document states that the date in the revision history is the publication date.
  753. pep. The one thing I'd like in relation to this is that actually have the latest date at the top of the document (In addition to "Version", iff different maybe)
  754. pep. I mean last modified
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  756. pep. But that's different to things being chronological
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  761. pep. (It might help also to have things chronological but it's not a necessary condition, is what I mean)
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  768. jonas’ pep., note that by policy, there are no chagnes to the text which do not also create a revision block
  769. Neustradamus Example: Only one, XEP-0292 (with a random choice): - https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0292.html Version 0.1 (2011-03-02) - https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-March/024199.html Of course, there is the time zone.
  770. pep. Yeah, it's a small corner case (in XEPs, otherwise it's fairly common) but it happens to have a non-chronological revision history.
  771. pep. Neustradamus, can you explain what I should be looking at?
  772. Neustradamus Thousands of examples exist ;)
  773. pep. Examples of what
  774. pep. Nothing states in 0292 that revision history has to be chronological
  775. jonas’ are you complaining about 2011-03-03 vs. 2011-03-02?
  776. Neustradamus It is the date!
  777. pep. ah
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  779. jonas’ Neustradamus, okay, at this point, I have to ask you to shut up about this. This is costing time and energy of the editor team for zero (in numbers: 0) gain.
  780. pep. Neustradamus, I guess you already have a script or something to find out all the relevant files to update and you can submit a PR?
  781. jonas’ I would *not* accept that PR
  782. pep. Adding of course a revision block in each of the edited XEP
  783. jonas’ we will not rewrite existing revision blocks, unless there is an order from council or board to do so.
  784. jonas’ they are in a strange meta-space between the text and revisions itself, and they are kind of unversioned and messing with them makes my head hurt
  785. pep. Well that would be a starting point if he wanted such a change to be made I guess
  786. jonas’ I want to nip this in the bud.
  787. jonas’ this is a waste of time and energy
  788. Neustradamus A commit with the date of publication/announcement/release is needed, it is easy
  789. Neustradamus You can see the problem with XEP-0390
  790. pep. jonas’, I agree
  791. jonas’ Neustradamus, it is *not* easy
  792. jonas’ in contrast to you, I tried to do that
  793. jonas’ and it is *not* easy
  794. jonas’ if you can do it, be my guest, i’d like to have a tool which maps a commit ID to a revision
  795. jonas’ but it is surprisingly tricky with merges and stuff
  796. Neustradamus The editor do a little commit, easy.
  797. jonas’ no it’s not
  798. jonas’ if it’s easy, show me how easy it is
  799. Neustradamus The editor does a little commit, easy.
  800. jonas’ you can do everything I can do in xeps, except hitting the green button which makes it go live
  801. jonas’ show me how easy it is, make a pull request
  802. Neustradamus How it was done before? There was not a date problem ;)
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  805. jonas’ Neustradamus, mistakes happen.
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  808. jonas’ I have no idea how everyone has been perfect in the past, I guess I should resign.
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