XSF Discussion - 2020-07-07

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  126. Daniel is there anything in XMPP-IM that requires me to use full jids? or could i just send one presence coming from the bare jid of my account?
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  128. jonas’ Daniel, talking from a server perspective?
  129. jonas’ because as a client, you don’t have control over @from.
  130. jonas’ also, yes, RFC 6121 e.g. §4.3.2 requires the server to send presence from all currently available resources
  131. Daniel yes talking about s2s interop. and interop with other clients. what I have in mind is a scenario where we replace most of c2s and have the server expose just one account to the outside world
  132. Daniel instead of multiple clients
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  136. jonas’ uh https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6121#section-4.2.2 this is also very strict wording
  137. Daniel so the server would just send out one bare jid presence instead of multiple full jids
  138. jonas’ you’d be in direct violation of that
  139. jonas’ which is a MUST
  140. Zash You probably could get away with it tho
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  144. Daniel thinking this further you'd also receive PEP updates on the bare jid
  145. Daniel and so on
  146. Daniel and join mucs with your bare jid instead of full jids
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  148. jonas’ Daniel, and then receive @type="groupchat" to the bare JID?
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  150. Daniel yes
  151. jonas’ this sounds like IM-NG / MIX territory
  152. jonas’ bare JID-ing the presence could be part of IM-NG
  153. Daniel it is sort of an idea to circumvent problems we are facing with upgrading to im-ng
  154. Daniel obviously my server / the way we are currently doing c2s would require a big overhaul
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  156. jonas’ if bare-JID-ing presence helps with that by tricking legacy deployments, it should be part of IM-NG
  157. Zash I made a thing for that, for MUC. Sorta worked
  158. Daniel but the goal is that everything s2s remains fully compatible
  159. jonas’ hm, I’m not convinced that we should put the complexity in overhauling c2s
  160. Daniel yeah it's just some ideas that i've been carrying around with me for a while and i'm probably not doing a good job at describing it right now
  161. Zash I suspect this will complicate servers.
  162. Daniel obviously
  163. Daniel but it could be a way to not do mix and mix-pam
  164. Zash The thing I made was basically a bouncer.
  165. Daniel yes i guess what i have in mind can be described as a bouncer
  166. Daniel but not just for muc
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  168. Daniel but also PEP and everything
  169. Daniel anything <message>
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  171. jonas’ Daniel, how would you know where to send IQs when you don’t get full-JID presence?
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  173. Daniel jonas’, we are getting into the details here. but IQs would be the only thing that is still allowed to go to full jids. and I imagine that you have to do jingle message init
  174. Daniel and then the receiving clients tells you the full jids for that particular session
  175. Daniel or something like that
  176. jonas’ Daniel, sure, but how would you learn the full JID?
  177. jonas’ uh
  178. jonas’ so an extra protocol for clients to get a set of full JIDs?
  179. jonas’ that sounds awful
  180. Daniel well we already have jingle message init
  181. jonas’ I’m not convinced that we can or should map all IQ flows to <message/>
  182. jonas’ and having an extra round-trip before initiating an IQ sounds meh
  183. Zash Brining back resource locking...?
  184. Daniel or at least we already have the desire of sending p2p sessions to the account and then have the receiver choose one what device they want to accept the p2p session
  185. jonas’ Daniel, that’s true
  186. Daniel i mean it's obviously not a fully formed idea
  187. jonas’ sure
  188. Zash Shifting PEP away from full JID subscriptions would be nice tho
  189. jonas’ I’m asking critical questions to bring it closer
  190. Daniel and it will certainly create new problems
  191. jonas’ abolishing a push-way for clients to learn about full JIDs would at least break things for my "IoT" use-cases
  192. jonas’ while IM-NG by itself as it is currently would not
  193. jonas’ (because I don’t use <message/> at all, just <presence/> and <iq/>)
  194. Daniel well if we call that XMPP-C2S-2.0 that nothing in there requires your iot devices to use that
  195. Zash Maybe we need that IM-NG discussion
  196. Daniel they can still use c2s-1.0
  197. jonas’ Daniel, but can they interop with c2s-2.0 devices?
  198. jonas’ if those only send bare JID?
  199. jonas’ if those only send bare JID presence?
  200. Daniel i guess c2s-2.0 can still *receive* full presences
  201. Daniel which if i'm understanding your iot problem correctly would be fine, no?
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  203. jonas’ Daniel, it requires both, sending and receiving full presences.
  204. jonas’ because the peers learn their IQ partners from presence
  205. jonas’ because I heard that hardcoding resources is not good ;)
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  208. Daniel so you have human interaction with iot devices?
  209. Daniel because if it's just iot talking to iot they can all use c2s1
  210. jonas’ I at least have IoT-ish things which need to talk to both worlds
  211. jonas’ MUC bots which talk to the devices for a text human interface
  212. jonas’ those would have to learn the full-JID presence of the devices. the devices may not have to learn the full-JID presence of the bot though ....
  213. jonas’ but it feels like an ugly restriction
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  217. Daniel right. i mean the general goal is ovbisouly that anything that is exposed over s2s should remain fully compatible with the outside world. however within c2s2 i’d be fully ok with dropping some (niche) use cases in order to have nice things
  218. Daniel the combination of my idea not being fully formed and not understanding your use case makes it impossible to say if your use case would be one of those niche cases that i'd be dropping
  219. jonas’ the use case is rather simple: the devices have a roster of peers (and they know the bare JID of peers with specific functions, i.e. IQ interfaces). They use presence to learn the full JID to send the IQs to and to learn when they go offline etc.
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  221. Andrzej Daniel, do you really thing that reworking basic assumptions in c2s and presence to "fix broken MUC" just to get what MIX, MIX-PAM would allow you to do is ok?
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  224. Daniel it's not just muc but also all kind of message routing. PEP; errors
  225. pep. Andrzej, I'm not sure what's the matter if it's a new protocol
  226. Daniel but yes. at least that's a random idea that i've been thinking about
  227. Andrzej pep, sure start with bumpimg XMPP version to 2.0
  228. Daniel not saying it's a good idea
  229. pep. Andrzej, there's a thing called XEPs I've heard :p
  230. Daniel the question is also how many 'basic assumptions' we'd be violating if we use the bare jid to send presence or join mucs
  231. Andrzej pep, I know, but I just disagree with changing so basic assumptions and drop a way to discover other devices full jids (presences) by forcing presence to use bare jid
  232. Daniel i mean XMPP (not IM) certainly allows you to send presence from the bare jid
  233. Daniel and 45 also doesn’t mandete you use full jids, no?
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  235. Andrzej XMPP allows you to send presence with no resource, but C2S forces server to overwrite from attribute so you end up with full jid
  236. Daniel right. but as a client i think you should also be prepared to *receive* presences from a bare jid
  237. jonas’ Daniel, but only type="error"
  238. jonas’ (as well as type="{un,}subscribe{,d}")
  239. Andrzej I've encountered already presence from bare jid with type = unavailable :/
  240. Andrzej Daniel, XEP0045 section 7.2.2.: > If the service is able to add the user to the room, it MUST send presence from all the existing participants' occupant JIDs to the new occupant's full JID
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  243. flow Andrzej, I think you have to relax you view on xep45 if you remove full JIDs from the game, but it could be that the places where xep45 talks about full JID are not so plentiful that it couldn't work
  244. Andrzej XEP-0045 just almost everywhere mentions sending message stanza to full jid of the occupant, so at least we "should" (?) update XEP-0045 to use "send to occupant JID"
  245. flow Andrzej, I think we'd have to relax your view on xep45 if you remove full JIDs from the game, but it could be that the places where xep45 talks about full JID are not so crucial that it couldn't work
  246. Andrzej pepo, sure, but some XMPP RFC AFAIR forces server not to deliver messages of type groupchat to bare jid
  247. Andrzej pep, sure, but some XMPP RFC AFAIR forces server not to deliver messages of type groupchat to bare jid
  248. Daniel that's true. but a server supporting xmpp-c2s2 could lift that rule
  249. Daniel i mean that's totally up to the user’s server. as long as it doesn’t break other servers
  250. flow doesn't mix already send type='groupchat' messages to the bare JID, and we assume it's ok because it was negotiated?
  251. Andrzej true, but how about MUC with bare jid and "history sync" without MAM?
  252. Andrzej flow, yes we do
  253. Daniel c2s2 would just mandate 'something like MAM'
  254. Andrzej as I said, so many changes that it asks for XMPP 2.0
  255. Daniel yes. but only for c2s
  256. Daniel or at least that'd be the goal
  257. Daniel keep s2s and interop with the outside world
  258. Daniel and redo vast parts of c2s
  259. Daniel if you want to call that xmpp 2.0 or something else is probably for the marketing department to decide
  260. Andrzej well, it is something that marks significant change
  261. Andrzej will that work if you have 2 c2s connections? 1 old and 1 new?
  262. Daniel the idea is not fully developed yet to say. but i'd be fine with the answer being no
  263. Daniel if that gives us beneftis
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  267. Andrzej I do not have anything against c2s2 but I would prefer not to break RFCs in many places and at least for me now, idea of MIX is far better than fixing MUC (too many issues)
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  270. Andrzej also idea of having MAM of MIX channel in user MAM archive works far better than querying each MUC room MAM archive on join (or reconnect)
  271. Daniel the goal would obviously be to still able to chat with 'pidgin' on the other and still join any kind of muc. so the RFC should only be violated to a degree where it doesn’t cause any real harm
  272. Daniel however much we may or may not not to stretch the exact wording of the RFCs to achieve that
  273. Andrzej Daniel, for c2s2 and bare jid in presence, would it mean that presence would be sent not so often? (if so, that could lead to desynchronization between MUC room occupants list and state of your client on your own server)
  274. Daniel probably maybe never
  275. Daniel if you think of xmpp-c2s2 as a bouncer
  276. Daniel or your server acting as a bouncer and c2s2 being the protocol that you use to connect to said bouncer
  277. Daniel note that i'm not (just) speaking from a perspective of 'fixing muc' or 'avoiding mix' - but also about the the whole carbons mess
  278. Daniel i don’t hate MIX
  279. Andrzej I forgot about carbons, all software which I use sends message to bare JID and with MIX that works like a charm without carbons
  280. Andrzej and with MUC I do appreciate a way in which I can be in some rooms on my desktop and not join on the mobile using the same account
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  282. Daniel Well even if you send messages to the bare jid. For outgoing messages as well as error bounces you still have to deal with carbons
  283. Daniel From an end user perspective carbons or broadly receiving messages on all devices is 90% solved
  284. Daniel But the other 10% are an absolute nightmare
  285. Andrzej true, but it somehow I feel that the server should bounce back sent message anyway (ie. to delivery stable-id for it)
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  287. Andrzej but that is a larger topic to discuss
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  289. Andrzej to sum up my position: I like the idea to improve message routing and deal with carbons, but I do not think that presence with bare jid is a good idea
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  525. emus Hello everyone, the monthly XMPP Newsletter has been published! 📨☕ https://xmpp.org/2020/07/newsletter-01-july/
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  528. moparisthebest nice work!
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  534. flow emus, thanks!
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  541. emus Thank you! That counts for all the contributors as well!
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