jonas’pep., I agree with MattJ on "this is not how 'open-source' [FLOSS] works though": Just by saying "it would be cool if we had", nothing will appear magically. Just like shouting "rewrite it in rust" will make anything happen magically (except annoyance).
jonas’you need to put money where your mouth is, and I trust Daniels judgement as professional FLOSS consultant when he says that the XSF funds are not sufficient to allow anything significant happening here
jonas’(and all that just as hard technical facts aside from the political question whether the XSF should even do such a thing)
jcbrandWould be fascinating to have a well researched report on how Riot has been developed, by how many developers, how many we're paid and how many volunteers were involved.
moparisthebestgit log | awk *cough*; something like this?
DanielTbf I don't actually know how much money the xsf has. For the past 9 months it has been surprisingly difficult to get that number
flowbesides what is in the bank, the (average) montly revenue stream and expenses would be interesting
Danielflow, I could understand how compiling that information is _slightly_ more compliacted
Danielbut the other is literally just copy pasting one number
Daniel> Would be fascinating to have a well researched report on how Riot has been developed, by how many developers, how many we're paid and how many volunteers were involved.
looking at Github activity and people who have
* a high number of commits
* almost exclusively at new-vector repositories
* who's commit activity is clustered around week days
it seems like there are ~3 people per platform iOS, web, android for a total of ~9 people
Danielthat's just riot. not looking at the server yet
jcbrandI'm also curious how much Matrix's success is due to Matthew's "hustling" for lack of a better word (not meant in a bad way at all)
jcbrandDaniel: yeah, which fits what I suspected
Danielthat roughly matches the impression I got after talking to Matthew at various occasions
flowI always assumed matrix's success is due having full-time paid developers (not sure if this is true) and the specification and software being devloped by the same entity
jcbrandflow: yes, me too
Danieland also seems plausible from a pure software dev perspective of how many people it takes to write software
jonas’three seems like a decent team size
ZashTemam of ~20 afaik, but spread out over the various parts.
flowwhich is not to big and not to small probably
DanielMatthew himself wasn’t even in that count
Danieland also not the server team
Danielplus their PR people
jonas’jcbrand, without that, I suppose they wouldn’t have acquired enough funding for that team
jcbrandI'm sure if there was a dominant company in XMPP land that did 80% of work and made so the reference clients, there'd be done complaints
jcbrandI'm sure if there was a dominant company in XMPP land that did 80% of work and made all the reference clients, there'd be done complaints
jcbrandI'm sure if there was a dominant company in XMPP land that did 80% of work and made all the reference clients, there'd be some complaints
jcbrandjonas’: yes, and honestly I admire him for that and I think people who just wish the XSF would do more ignore this part of the whole story
jonas’I find it hard to admire people for things I despise :)
jcbrandWhat exactly do you despise?
jonas’that type of aggressive marketing
jonas’or maybe all marketing, I’m not quite sure about that yet
jonas’for context, I’d be all-in for a social experiment where we forbid any kind of advertisment or marketing for a whole year.
flowbut then I wouldn't know what to buy!!1!!
jonas’flow, good! :)
jcbrandjonas’: are you therefore also against the idea of hiring a marketer for XMPP?
jonas’jcbrand, no, therefore I abstain
jcbrandNo you're not against?
GuusIf covid has proven anything it is that economies collapse when people stop buying stuff the don't need.
jonas’jcbrand, I would abstain from the vote.
jonas’because in the current system, I see the need, but I do not endorse that.
jonas’Guus, that’s a problem right there :)
jcbrandAny profession or job can have a shadow side, but can also be of service to society. Including marketing.
jonas’Guus, though my impression was that covid mostly hit the service industry, which I wouldn’t necessarily count in "buying stuff they don’t need"
ZashI too am deeply depressed by the way marketing seems to be the only key to success. :(
jonas’jcbrand, I’ve yet to find a service to society in "marketing" of any product.
jcbrandjonas’: I've bought products or services based on marketing that improved my life.
jonas’you can convince me that "marketing" of some temporary things (like events) is necessary and acceptable, but that might be about it :)
flowadoption is the key to sucess (cf. metcalfe's law), and that requires probably marketing
jcbrandAnd you probably have too
jonas’jcbrand, I am not aware of such an event, and that’s part of why I despise it
jonas’because even without me being aware of such an event, it’s very likely that it has happened indeed
Danielnot all marketing is the same I guess
Danielmost marketing relies on emotional manipulation. but not all
jonas’Daniel, oh, interesting line to draw
jonas’in addition to the "obviously based on wrong facts" line
jonas’in addition to the "obviously based on non-facts" line
jonas’in addition to the "obviously based on falsehoods presented as facts" line
Zashflow: sure, network effect is the only thing that matters. but you seem to need to bootstrap it with tons of marketing.
jcbrandXMPP is growing again since a few years, that's my impression, and it's been without "proper" marketing. You can also grow something organically, it just takes much longer and other people with marketing budgets will likely leap-frog you
Danielwell in case of end user marketing for XMPP you can do all the marketing you want but it will always end in "great you convinced me that Facebook is bad; I want to try XMPP; what do I install on my iPhone"
Danielif you want to market a product you kinda need a product first
jonas’Daniel, not with real marketing
jonas’with real marketing, you sell the product before you get it!!
jonas’with real marketing, you sell the product before you have it!!
Danieli guess if you target investors that's fine
jcbrandjonas’: that's done sometimes, but it very often fails and is not the norm IMO
jcbrandDaniel: I remember a poll where you asked what you should work in next, and iOS won IIRC, are you going to work on it?
jcbrandDaniel: I remember a poll where you asked what you should work on next, and iOS won IIRC, are you going to work on it?
Danielmostly I was trying to proof a point that we are in fact missing an iOS client and users want that
Guus> xmppcoin when?
While composing a response to this, I found out that there is no garlic emoji.
jonas’Guus, I kind of want to read your response now
jcbrandjonas’: cryptotokens are actually a way to generate investment without VCs, they're a decentralized form of crowdfunding. I'd think that people wary of VCs might be interested in them. Of course there are scams (always will be if money is involved).
GuusIt was basically me throwing garlic at JC.
GuusiOS wise, I hear more and more positive things about Tigases client.
Guus> Guus, 🧄
Hey, why didn't that pop up in my search?
DanielI think Siskin has a good chance of getting there
jonas’Guus, it doesn’t even render here
Guusjonas’: it did for me
jcbrandBack to Matthew von Matrix, what amazes me, is that in order to aggressively market something that's half-built, you have to have amazing faith in it's potential, or you have to not care about potential negative outcomes. Or what they call shutzpa (spelling?) in Yiddish.
Danielwhat nevgative outcomes? he gets paid either way
jonas’jcbrand, sorry, I fail to see it as anything except "be ready to deceive or delude a lot of people fully knowing that you may not be able to deliver what you’re promising at the moment"
goffijumping into the discussion, I confirm that Siskin is nearly there, but not yet. I've seen it used, it's not bad, but it still has annoying behaviour (not resizing image, with result in user no able to send it with random server limit, having to activate push notifs in settings, and message not received correctly when phone is sleeping). But it's really not far to be a nice app.
jonas’and I can’t admire that
jonas’add to that all the falsehoods spread about competitors
Daniel> and message not received correctly when phone is sleeping
it's nearly there. it just can’t deliver messages yet…
goffiyeah it's not there *yet*
Danieli get why it's complicated. but from an outsiders perspective you can’t help but wonder why 'message delivery' is not the first thing you start with when creating an instant messenger
MattJgoffi: not enabling push by default appears to be a bug that I'm currently investigating
goffiMattJ: wait, you're working on Siskin?
MattJI suspect it is working when the server software is Tigase, but it doesn't work on Prosody and possibly others
MattJI'm working on Snikket, and Snikket needs an iOS client :)
goffiOK, makes sense, and good news then
MattJSiskin was the closest, but not quite there yet
jonas’also closest in levenshtein distance.
goffiah ah, true :)
goffiI had to check to not confuse both names actually :)
goffi*to make sure I didn't confuse
goffiThe resizing issue should be trivial to fix, and is really annoying, I've seen somebody stopping using Siskin just for that (because that one of the primary thing you want to do, just send picture to your contact). Maybe it's better with latest version though, I don't know.
MattJIt's not implemented, but planned
emusDaniel: If you need qualified people to get a fund or any monetary support or to have it efficient (what does it mean though?), then criteria can be made up. I dont think it should be come like the standard to fund things, but if there are qualified people and meaningful tasks, its worth a try. If we completely fail, ok lessons learned. So far the GSoC seem to work, even within XMPP.
> No you're not against?
jcbrand thats suggestion ...
Apart and in general:
I wonder once we drop the term `marketing` everyone only thinks of the things we don`t like about it or tries to degrate the possibility.
In my view we should treat such a possible approach with interest of external and internal communication. For example, haveing myths around about how bad XMPP is (e.g. see the recent hacker news threat) are definitively things noone wants here (right?). That could be something where we can invest in to ensure at least the technological understanding is not a matter of rumors.
And further I also see this as a discussion and may find common ground (?). I think its not okay to critisize by saying "hey but then you need to do it!" or suggest the person who suggest things won't do anything on that. I would have few motivation to do anything if I would know everyone is against that or even would try to bring up obstacles (just extreme thinking). So, I think it is basically fine to state things that should be done, even without haveing someone named to do so firsthand. 🤔
jcbrandemus: not suggestion, I was trying to clarify whether he was for or against, it wasn't clear to me from his answer
Danielemus: you don't need to be qualified to get funding. But you need to be qualified to turn the funding into something useful
jcbrandYou can state things need to be done as much as you want, doesn't mean anybody will do it
jonas’you need to be qualified to get funding. not in doing actual work, but in writing compelling applications
jcbrandWriting a compelling application is work
jcbrandHonestly, this tendency by engineers to think only they do any real work is annoying
jonas’s/actual work/actual development work/
jonas’didn’t mean to diminish that
DanielOh I agree yes. You need both
emusWhy start with "writing a compelling" application. Thats a high expectation.
I rather thought about features or partly improvements. As there are qualified people in XSF, I would have no fear that a fund request could not be evaluated. Its not that funding projects/ideas should start from nowhere with no references. (Start with small steps)
But I guess I dont say something new.
GuusLet's just start doing stuff, instead of talking about how we start doing stuff.
ZashThe secret to success: Do stuff and talk about it.
GuusJC has more paid work for Converse than he can do. There's room for more people to make money here, and thus improve the project.
Winfried has reached out for help needed to convince Dutch authorities to standardize on XMPP which would offer massive opportunities for us all.
lovetox wants more work for Gajim so that he can afford to spend more than 2 hours per week on it.
We can work on all these, and more like these.
jcbrandYes, there is definitely opportunity for more people to work on Converse and get paid for it.
jcbrandDele has been doing lots of paid work on Converse, but he's injured currently
jcbrandI regularly get emails from people who want to build on it
Guusmy point is that there seem to be plenty of existing opportunities that we can use to generically improve XMPP. Let's focus on what we already have, instead of trying to find more.
GuusI'm not sure if he got non-public responses, but the feedback to Winfrieds call for help publicly was minimal. That's a shame.
> I regularly get emails from people who want to build on it
And I'm fully employed, so can't do these jobs
GuusHow is it that you think you are getting these emails? In the sense that, how can other projects that _want_ to be getting job offers but do not currently get them, can improve here?
jcbrandBecause we dev is where the business opportunities are, not desktop clients
jcbrandBecause web dev is where the business opportunities are, not desktop clients
DanielSame here fwiw. I'm also getting more opportunities than I can or want to work on
jcbrandIt's not about what you as dev want, it's about how you can help other people achieve what they want
jcbrandWell, best is win win, but you can't just focus on yourself
DanielThat's also why I said yesterday that we seem to be doing an OK job of marketing xmpp to people who want to build their own stuff
jcbrandWe're doing ok, but we lack devs actually, that's what this is pointing to
jcbrandBut that's a good problem to have
jcbrandMeans demand outstrips supply
GuusLet's focus on _that_ problem then.
ZashSeems you either have too much work, or none at all. No inbetween.
jcbrandThat's what I've been trying to highlight for a while now, both maybe did it in a wrong East
jcbrandThat's what I've been trying to highlight for a while now, both maybe did it in a wrong way
jcbrand> Seems you either have too much work, or none at all. No inbetween.
When it rains it pours
jcbrandIMO the best thing for the XMPP community is to have many opportunities for people to earn an income as employees, freelancers it companies
jcbrandIMO the best thing for the XMPP community is to have many opportunities for people to earn an income as employees, freelancers and companies
jcbrandA rising tide lifts all boats
jcbrandBut IMO some people need to loosen their ideological rigidity
emus> But IMO some people need to loosen their ideological rigidity
Danielspeaking for myself here (but I can imagine that JC is going at something similiar): If you want to work full time on XMPP not all jobs are going to be fun or alligned with what you think are good, federated products. but working full time on XMPP - even if it is working for The Man(tm) increases your knowledge and understanding of xmpp
Danielalso even if the code you end up writing might not even be open source the engineering you do is something that might be transferable
jcbrandYes, and often you can open source
jcbrandI'm still writing over 80% FOSS code
jcbrandYou just need to be able to sell the benefits of FOSS
Danielfor me personally it's (currently) less than 80%. but i still find it valuable what i'm learning in the process
Danielfor example i rewrote an OMEMO stack recenctly that isn’t open source. but i gained a lot of knowledge that I can put into improving the XEP
jcbrandThe older I get, the more I value pragmatism over ideological purity
jcbrandDaniel: how could you wrote an closed source OMEMO stack? Do they have a libsignal license or is it now without OMEMO?
jcbrandI haven't kept up to date there
jcbrandSorry, without libsignal
DanielI just wrote the (xmpp) code. the legal aspects of that are not my department
jcbrandOk, but so it's still using libsignal
jcbrandOk, so it's still using libsignal
Danielit's also server side code. so i'm not sure how the GPL would work here
Danielsince it's not agpl
emus> Let's just start doing stuff, instead of talking about how we start doing stuff.
(and also Zash)
I disagree on that. From my perspective we should consider questioning how we start doing things at least in a general, organisational attitude more together and not each one alone (strongly speaking). That can counts for at least external communication. And as there are so many different internal views you cannot "just do" communication, you need most actors on you side (?). So what is the lowest common denominator of what we agree on how to attract e.g. more developers to XMPP? _(can I actually say that in English^^)_
I my opinion, we should not leave things by default to people just being annoyed and then cook their own stuff... which is still okay. But I don't know if that is what we like to see in the end. (I know there are many attempts, not degrading that!)
And I also say that because I am not sure what I might should tell the world about XMPP/XSF. Of course, I have my understanding and my ideas and I "just do" what i think is right. But is that very much aligned to a strategy or peoples direct feedback? I doubt...
GuusI feel that in the past half year, we've been running in circles. I feel we've wasted time, without making much progress, while all the time, opportunities were there for the taking. It's been a demotivating experience for me.
jcbrandIMO, the way to attract developers to XMPP is to make it clear that there are economic opportunities
emusjcbrand, Daniel: but I guess you both and others are the few giving know'edge back to a XEP... but wait I still dont get the ideology in that manner?
emus> I feel that in the past half year, we've been running in circles. I feel we've wasted time, without making much progress, while all the time, opportunities were there for the taking. It's been a demotivating experience for me.
I understand, still I thinl its necessary
jcbrandGuus: what opportunities are you thinking of?
emus> IMO, the way to attract developers to XMPP is to make it clear that there are economic opportunities
Will consider that
Guusopportunities to increase the amount of paid resources to work on XMPP, thus improving the entire ecosystem.
jcbrandBy doing what? I agree that we need to do that, I'm just wondering what could have been done that wasn't
Guusfor one: help Winfried.
Guusapart from myself, I've only seen one response to his call for help. And at the same time, we're having some kind of meta-discussion that keeps getting no-were. That annoys me.
Guusapart from myself, I've only seen one response to his call for help. And at the same time, we're having some kind of meta-discussion that keeps getting nowhere. That annoys me.
pep.> jonas’> pep., I agree with MattJ on "this is not how 'open-source' [FLOSS] works though": Just by saying "it would be cool if we had", nothing will appear magically.
In the meantime MattJ's two main clients are Freeware as he says. That must count for something. Just as the XMPP community has been depending for decades on two other projects like gajim or pidgin that it loves to hate. These are projects that we should try to support and not just laugh at because “there's no business model it's not sustainable”.
jcbrandYeah, there definitely is the risk of just talking ask the time and not getting things done. However, taking can also help a lot. For example I didn't know about Winfried's thing, or forgot, which brings as back to marketing (in the sense of raising awareness about something).
jcbrandYeah, there definitely is the risk of just talking all the time and not getting things done. However, taking can also help a lot. For example I didn't know about Winfried's thing, or forgot, which brings as back to marketing (in the sense of raising awareness about something).
jcbrandYeah, there definitely is the risk of just talking all the time and not getting things done. However, taking can also help a lot. For example I didn't know about Winfried's thing, or forgot, which brings us back to marketing (in the sense of raising awareness about something).
jcbrandpep.: Nobody here is laughing at them. You seem to be implying ill intentions
Danielwell Winfrieds thing is mostly regulatory and politics, no? as someone who has repeatedly tried that angle I can understand that this is not everybodies cup of tea
Danielit's extremly frustrating
pep.> jcbrand> IMO, the way to attract developers to XMPP is to make it clear that there are economic opportunities
We're definitely not going for the same target
Danielfor example I had some back and forth email exchanges with the consumer protection agency here in Germany (is that the proper term?) that ended up leading nowhere
jcbrandpep.: I know that by now. You seem to think business is evil
Danielit is. but i've learned to not hate the player but the game :-)
pep.jcbrand: I don't think "business" is evil no, that's a quite poor understanding
jcbrandI'm sorry for being so dumb
MattJpep.: clarification, I didn't call anything I do "Freeware", it was a poor attempt at sarcasm after you told me you weren't interested in " open-source" but "free software"
pep.MattJ: I was talking about poezio and yaxim
MattJI personally default to the term "open-source" because it is well understood, and "free software" is ambiguous in English and that is not understood well by people outside FLOSS communities
pep.it's indeed not really meant for the same people
MattJYou said yesterday that "money is secondary" - that's a privileged thing to say, and unrealistic for many. Some people still can't even afford internet access, let alone spend any of their time coding without compensation
MattJFree software is by default unsustainable, the people who work on it tend to be people with comfortable jobs who can afford to spend a margin of their time working for free on something they believe in or that interests them
MattJThose comfortable jobs are typically (but not always) proprietary software development
MattJSo yes, Pidgin has no business model and also happens to have a developer shortage
DanielMost, successful open source software is developed by companies with business models
larmaDaniel, most but not all 🙂
Daniellarma: can you name popular examples of software that isn't?
larmaMost successful things are done by companies with business models
DanielHonestly asking but I don't now of one
MattJIf they have a lot of hype around them, they can attract those people who have comfortable jobs
HolgerOr old-school Unix-y tools which don't require tons of dev time to be successful. I think the perception of those being "successful" might mislead people to think that model works similarly well for other types of software.
MattJPeople get paid to work on Debian full time
Fair ish point. But the components certainly aren't
MattJVarious industries rely on it
DanielThe kernel is developed almost exclusively by paid people
DanielSo is systemd
DanielOr what ever other components there are in Debian
larmaI think there is a difference between people being paid by a company to develop software and companies developing software
HolgerVim Mutt zsh tmux i3 sway tons of others ...
pep.Daniel: you said earlier you tend to hate the game rather, but who do you think keeps it going :p
MattJHolger: all software by devs for devs
MattJIf not motivated by money, people are motivated to build stuff they want to use themselves
jcbrandConcerning Winfried and playing the bureaucratic game, that requires a skillset that not everyone has, especially the many devs and engineers that are overrepresented in the XMPP community.
Winfried, is not a dev, and so I think it's not a coincidence that he tries to help XMPP in this (non-dev) way. We need more people like him, and while I can understand the frustration that he wasn't getting much help, I'm don't think that devs can, want or should have to do all kinds of work in areas in which they don't have expertise.
So... I'm glad Winfried is in our community, and I wonder how else can we attract people that could help with initiatives like the one he started.
HolgerMattJ, yes that's what I meant to say. My point was just, such examples mislead some people to believing a volunteer-driven Open Source development model works also for other kinds of software.
pep.So is it fine for Windried to wander into political territories as long as it's not stamped XSF?
pep.(just its members)
jcbrandpep. nobody said that...
DanielWhen I wander into political territories I always low key drop that I'm in the council of the xsf
Holgerpep., that's the fun part of this game, you either play along or you loose. You can't simply decide to play a different game.
larmaMattJ, I don't think it's fair to say that most debian developers are paid and therefor debian is a paid project. Popular software is used by companies, thus companies want to improve it. I'd tend to say that debian was popular *before* it was mostly paid work.
larmaThat's why I picked debian 😉
goffi« can you name popular examples of software that isn't? » ==> there are plenty of them, GIMP and Blender just to name 2 famous ones.
pep.Holger, I'm not so sure that's true :)
pep.jcbrand, nobody said what exactly?
pep.(Sorry I'd prefer to have details before replying)
goffiBlender is really a school case, it didn't succeed commercially, was saved by community and is now praised by big commercial actors
jcbrandpep. what you where rhetorically asking
pep.jcbrand, board yesterday said they'd rather not engage in ""activism"" (I double quote that because it's not exactly how I'd define it, but it's fine)
pep.So I'm curious where Winfried's adventures fit in
jcbrandpep. regardless of that, I was purposefully saying "community" and not "XSF"
jcbrandpep. I sense a lot of sarcasm and resentment in your writings. As if you have an axe to grind.
Holgerpep., one can always discuss whether and how much room to move exists within the game, but I'm convinced the core issue is very true, unfortunately. The fact that WhatsApp does closed business is because that's a rational decision given the rules of the game, so ill-intentions of the player would be a poor explanation of the situation.
pep.Right and I'm saying we should really have the courage to admit that a set of people composing the XSF and the XSF are the same thing, and the XSF should take responsability for its actions
pep.Instead of just saying "muh it's not us, it's just 100% of our members"
pep.Is it just an act not to lose its face in front of some kind of public? What's the goal exactly
MattJThe goal is to be standards organisation
pep.And that again..
MattJI don't care if 100% of members happen to be musicians
MattJMusic is still not the focus of the XSF
MattJYou said that the XSF is what its members are
pep.And now I'm wondering if you're just playing with words
MattJI say it's what its members want it to be
MattJRelated to the fact that I agree with many of your principles, but I disagree with pushing them onto the XSF
MattJI honestly think it is 1) incorrect 2) harms the XSF 3) harms the cause
MattJThe effort wasted on trying to transform the XSF could be put into something more likely to have a successful outcome
pep.harms the XSF in what way?
MattJBy defocusing it from standards
MattJAnd building XMPP
pep.MattJ, yeah just like I could say the efforts wasted on Debian could help some other part of the Free software world to strive. It's irrelevant because I don't get to say that
pep.And also what's a successful outcome?
HolgerStraightforward specs that make it more attractive/easy to implement a modern client based on XMPP.
jcbrandpep. I think if you came up with concrete suggestions for something that's political or "activist", then they might actually be accepted by the XSF. But at least to me... simply wanting the XSF to be political or activist in a general sense is very dangerous because then any person with some kind of political or activist cause could try to use the XSF as a vehicle to further that cause, which would IMO harm the XSF and the community in general.
jcbrandBut if you came up with a proposal for one specific thing, like trying to get the Dutch parliament to accept XMPP (or somesuch), it might actually be accepted as something under the XSF banner
jcbrandAnd if it isn't, then you could still do it in your personal capacity or start (or join) a different organisation in order to further that goal
pep.jcbrand, “any person with some kind of political or activist cause could try to use the XSF as a vehicle to further that cause”, I've already said it multiple times before it was dismissed as "not politics", but the XSF is already serving as a vehicule to further some cause, and that's part of what I'm saying when I say we should have the courage to admit it.
pep.But I guess we're running in circles as always
jcbrandYes, you've said that many times, but many people don't agree with you on that point
pep.So that makes it wrong
jonas’is there right and wrong in politics?
jcbrandNo, it means that there's nothing actionable there for the XSF because there isn't agreement
pep.(damn poezio completion)
pep.Damn me, why am I even trying to disturb the game, players are all so focused and in agreement already
jcbrandYea, they use XMPP
KevWhat a coincidence that I picked that game, then.
jcbrandI know you're smart like that Kev
jcbrandOh, something I wanted to mention earlier also when I wrote about supply and demand... I want to point out that Guus has been mentoring and even paying XMPP devs out of pocket (OpenFire and Converse) in order to get new people skilled and involved in XMPP dev work.
So he's actively helping to get more devs involved in XMPP.
There are so many ways in which people can help grow the community. Ted Sterr and pep. and jonas’ also do a lot of work and emus on the newsletter. Ok, I have to stop otherwise there's a long list of people to mention.
All in all, like Daniel, I think we're doing pretty well as a Guus
jcbrandlol, I mean as a community
jcbrandBut I'll leave that there
KevEveryone wants to be a Guus ;)
GuusBetween you and me, it takes a toll on me emotionally, realizing that I'm such a role model. 🙂
jcbrandYes, please don't let us down Guus, we're counting on you!
jcbrandDon't ever slip up or make a mistake...
KevI can see it would be hard.
KevSuperstardom must be a drain.
jonas’Hyvä Guus! Hyvä Guus! Hyvä Guus!
jonas’Kev, finnish for "Go Guus!" times three
Guushe's basically shouting that I need to leave.
KevHow fickle fans can be.
GuusIt was nice while it lasted.
jonas’Guus, literally translated it is "Good Guus!"
jonas’so your interpretation is not quite working out
GuusI think any interpretation that revolves around me being a superstar is not quite working out. 😃
This is in context with data forms. The form fields inside examples at,
do not have a form field type.
If servers send such data forms, clients end up assuming that the form fields are of type text-single(since it is default type).
adiaholic_XEP-004 explains how form field variables are to be used in case of data forms of type `form` and `submit` but not for type `result`.
The line from XEP-004, "fields provided in the context of other forms types MAY possess a 'type' attribute as well." bothers me since forms of type `result` need form field type.
adiaholic_Do we feel the need to add form field type to the examples?
lovetoxadiaholic_, what would be the problem with assuming a type text-single?
lovetoxok forget that question
lovetoxlets start with the question, the examples you linked
lovetoxok also forget that
lovetoxi get now what you are saying, the address fields
lovetoxthen back to the question, what is the problem with text-single?
lovetoxits a "result" iq
lovetoxits not meant to be filled out and send somewhere
adiaholic_Yes, according to the XEP-0157 example the server sends that <iq>
lovetoxyeah, and its read by your client, but thats not a form that is to be filled out
lovetoxso what does the type matter here?
adiaholic_Since there isn't a type involved, client might assume it of type single-text
lovetoxnormally type on a field must only supplied if the type cant be known beforehand by a client
lovetoxbut this xep tells exactly what will be in the form and what types the fileds are
lovetoxand you can identify that this xep applies by looking at FORM_TYPE
adiaholic_so the client should take care of that
adiaholic_Thanks for the clarification
flowthen we should probably clarify xep4, right now it reads like you can only omit the types for 'submit' type forms
lovetoxhm where do you read that flow
lovetox fields provided in the context of other forms types MAY possess a 'type' attribute as well.
lovetoxand even for submit its optional
flowyeah, I think I kinda read over the sandwitch sentence in the middle
flowyeah, I think I kinda read over the sandwitch half-sentence in the middle
lovetoxalso i think the context in which the form is received matters
lovetoxthis is a disco of an entity, i dont know a client who would show a form GUI after a disco
lovetoxthis is in 99.9 % read by a machine
lovetoxa machine that does not know the FORM_TYPE of server addresses
lovetoxshould ignore the whole form
lovetoxand a machine that knows that form type , implementes the XEP and hence knows all types beforehand
flowwhat if fields get added later on?
lovetoxthen they need to be registered in that register section or not?
flowbut your software is already deployed
lovetoxand if not, yes adding a type makes sense
lovetoxi would say everywhere where the receiving entity is not expected to know the type, a type should be added
lovetoxi think sometimes XEP0004 gets used as a simple data transfer format
lovetoxand sometimes it gets used to make it possible to display a Form GUI
flowthen cases where an entity is presented with an 'result' form field without the entity prior dealing with the field would require field types
lovetoxtypes are only important for the later i guess
flowthen cases where an entity is presented with an 'result' form without the entity prior dealing with the form would require field types
lovetoxif we look at server adresses, types are useless
lovetoxeverything is list-multi
lovetoxevery field contains a list of not defined things
lovetoxcan be JIDs, email, http links whatever
lovetox0004 is only used in one direction here, to transfer data in some known easy to parse format
lovetoxhaha, actually gajim would fail if the type is not supplied
adiaholic_lovetox, Same goes for Smack
lovetoxits problematic because you cant use your normal form parsing code here
lovetoxyou would need to create an exception on seeing the FORM_TYPE
lovetoxthen do a custom parsing
lovetoxthough adiaholic_ which server does not suppy it?
lovetoxthough adiaholic_ which server does not supply it?
adiaholic_I tried it with openfire
lovetoxejabbered, and prosody supply it
adiaholic_I was just about to file a JIRA ticket but then looked upto examples
lovetoxi would simply create a issue with openfire, it makes sense to supply the types here, and its way less work on server side
adiaholic_I guess if ejabberd and prosody are already doing it, openfire can also do the same.
lovetoxof course the standard is written very generic, it is open to a trillion use cases
lovetoxdoes not mean it makes sense to omit the type in certain scenarios
flowI think simple rules are better than special rules for certain scenarios
flowI have just submitted a PR against xep4 that states that the field type can be omitted for 'result' fields
flowI have just submitted a PR against xep4 that states that the field type can be omitted for 'result' forms
flowwhile I actually tend to believe it would be better that we only allow omission for 'submit' forms
lovetoxim not sure that helps us here
flowbut given that we have already a few xep examples that show 'result' forms without types (on non text-single fields), I fear that ship has sailed
Wojteksorry for being late to the party, but timezones... regarding siskin:
> [2020-07-17 03:11:11] <goffi>: jumping into the discussion, I confirm that Siskin is nearly there, but not yet. I've seen it used, it's not bad, but it still has annoying behaviour (not resizing image, with result in user no able to send it with random server limit,
Feature on github - please :-)
> having to activate push notifs in settings,
well, we don't enabled *silently* by default as push will route messages through APNS so that's kinda iffy by default. However - user should be asked when the account is created and siskin detects push support, if it should be enabled; on the other hand, we are also doing encrypted push notifications, so possibly we may change how push is enabled in the future.
> and message not received correctly when phone is sleeping).
This is very much issue with iOS and it's quite aggressive behaviour when it comes to managing apps. Push *should* handle that but it seems there is still a problem. And apple *doesn't* guarantee push notifications delivery
goffiWojtek: thanks for feedback, I'll check with my contact if the issues are still there and report that (if I don't forget).
Wojtekaddendum - there was a bug in Siskin that sometimes user was not asked about enabling push or MAM - it was fixed recently
Wojteksure thing goffi.
Wojtekin general - reporting things helps a lot with ironing out the issues :-)
MattJWojtek: fixed recently when? I'm on the latest beta and it doesn't work, and Andrzej said there was no known issue here
MattJJust want to know if I'm chasing down a bug that has already been fixed :)
AndrzejMattJ: I found cause of the issue today, so there is no build with a fix, but it is already fixed