XSF Discussion - 2020-07-17


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  78. jonas’ fun backlog9
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  81. jonas’ pep., I agree with MattJ on "this is not how 'open-source' [FLOSS] works though": Just by saying "it would be cool if we had", nothing will appear magically. Just like shouting "rewrite it in rust" will make anything happen magically (except annoyance).
  82. jonas’ you need to put money where your mouth is, and I trust Daniels judgement as professional FLOSS consultant when he says that the XSF funds are not sufficient to allow anything significant happening here
  83. jonas’ (and all that just as hard technical facts aside from the political question whether the XSF should even do such a thing)
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  91. jcbrand Would be fascinating to have a well researched report on how Riot has been developed, by how many developers, how many we're paid and how many volunteers were involved.
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  93. moparisthebest git log | awk *cough*; something like this?
  94. Daniel Tbf I don't actually know how much money the xsf has. For the past 9 months it has been surprisingly difficult to get that number
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  98. flow besides what is in the bank, the (average) montly revenue stream and expenses would be interesting
  99. Daniel flow, I could understand how compiling that information is _slightly_ more compliacted
  100. Daniel but the other is literally just copy pasting one number
  101. flow https://web.archive.org/web/20130430104617/http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-financial-summary/
  102. flow at least we have some historic data ;)
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  105. Daniel > Would be fascinating to have a well researched report on how Riot has been developed, by how many developers, how many we're paid and how many volunteers were involved. looking at Github activity and people who have * a high number of commits * almost exclusively at new-vector repositories * who's commit activity is clustered around week days it seems like there are ~3 people per platform iOS, web, android for a total of ~9 people
  106. Daniel that's just riot. not looking at the server yet
  107. jcbrand I'm also curious how much Matrix's success is due to Matthew's "hustling" for lack of a better word (not meant in a bad way at all)
  108. jcbrand Daniel: yeah, which fits what I suspected
  109. Daniel that roughly matches the impression I got after talking to Matthew at various occasions
  110. flow I always assumed matrix's success is due having full-time paid developers (not sure if this is true) and the specification and software being devloped by the same entity
  111. jcbrand flow: yes, me too
  112. Daniel and also seems plausible from a pure software dev perspective of how many people it takes to write software
  113. jonas’ three seems like a decent team size
  114. Zash Temam of ~20 afaik, but spread out over the various parts.
  115. flow which is not to big and not to small probably
  116. Daniel Matthew himself wasn’t even in that count
  117. Daniel and also not the server team
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  120. Daniel plus their PR people
  121. jonas’ jcbrand, without that, I suppose they wouldn’t have acquired enough funding for that team
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  124. jcbrand I'm sure if there was a dominant company in XMPP land that did 80% of work and made so the reference clients, there'd be done complaints
  125. jcbrand I'm sure if there was a dominant company in XMPP land that did 80% of work and made all the reference clients, there'd be done complaints
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  127. jcbrand I'm sure if there was a dominant company in XMPP land that did 80% of work and made all the reference clients, there'd be some complaints
  128. jcbrand jonas’: yes, and honestly I admire him for that and I think people who just wish the XSF would do more ignore this part of the whole story
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  130. jonas’ I find it hard to admire people for things I despise :)
  131. jcbrand What exactly do you despise?
  132. jonas’ that type of aggressive marketing
  133. jonas’ or maybe all marketing, I’m not quite sure about that yet
  134. jonas’ for context, I’d be all-in for a social experiment where we forbid any kind of advertisment or marketing for a whole year.
  135. flow but then I wouldn't know what to buy!!1!!
  136. jonas’ flow, good! :)
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  138. jcbrand jonas’: are you therefore also against the idea of hiring a marketer for XMPP?
  139. jonas’ jcbrand, no, therefore I abstain
  140. jcbrand No you're not against?
  141. Guus If covid has proven anything it is that economies collapse when people stop buying stuff the don't need.
  142. jonas’ jcbrand, I would abstain from the vote.
  143. jonas’ because in the current system, I see the need, but I do not endorse that.
  144. jcbrand Lol
  145. jonas’ Guus, that’s a problem right there :)
  146. jcbrand Any profession or job can have a shadow side, but can also be of service to society. Including marketing.
  147. jonas’ Guus, though my impression was that covid mostly hit the service industry, which I wouldn’t necessarily count in "buying stuff they don’t need"
  148. Zash I too am deeply depressed by the way marketing seems to be the only key to success. :(
  149. jonas’ jcbrand, I’ve yet to find a service to society in "marketing" of any product.
  150. jcbrand jonas’: I've bought products or services based on marketing that improved my life.
  151. jonas’ you can convince me that "marketing" of some temporary things (like events) is necessary and acceptable, but that might be about it :)
  152. flow adoption is the key to sucess (cf. metcalfe's law), and that requires probably marketing
  153. jcbrand And you probably have too
  154. jonas’ jcbrand, I am not aware of such an event, and that’s part of why I despise it
  155. jonas’ because even without me being aware of such an event, it’s very likely that it has happened indeed
  156. Daniel not all marketing is the same I guess
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  159. Daniel most marketing relies on emotional manipulation. but not all
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  161. jonas’ Daniel, oh, interesting line to draw
  162. jonas’ in addition to the "obviously based on wrong facts" line
  163. jonas’ in addition to the "obviously based on non-facts" line
  164. jonas’ in addition to the "obviously based on falsehoods presented as facts" line
  165. Zash flow: sure, network effect is the only thing that matters. but you seem to need to bootstrap it with tons of marketing.
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  167. jcbrand XMPP is growing again since a few years, that's my impression, and it's been without "proper" marketing. You can also grow something organically, it just takes much longer and other people with marketing budgets will likely leap-frog you
  168. Daniel well in case of end user marketing for XMPP you can do all the marketing you want but it will always end in "great you convinced me that Facebook is bad; I want to try XMPP; what do I install on my iPhone"
  169. Daniel if you want to market a product you kinda need a product first
  170. jonas’ Daniel, not with real marketing
  171. jonas’ with real marketing, you sell the product before you get it!!
  172. jonas’ with real marketing, you sell the product before you have it!!
  173. Daniel kinda
  174. Daniel i guess if you target investors that's fine
  175. jcbrand jonas’: that's done sometimes, but it very often fails and is not the norm IMO
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  178. jonas’ xmppcoin when?
  179. jcbrand Daniel: I remember a poll where you asked what you should work in next, and iOS won IIRC, are you going to work on it?
  180. jcbrand Daniel: I remember a poll where you asked what you should work on next, and iOS won IIRC, are you going to work on it?
  181. Daniel mostly I was trying to proof a point that we are in fact missing an iOS client and users want that
  182. Guus > xmppcoin when? While composing a response to this, I found out that there is no garlic emoji.
  183. jonas’ Guus, I kind of want to read your response now
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  185. jcbrand jonas’: cryptotokens are actually a way to generate investment without VCs, they're a decentralized form of crowdfunding. I'd think that people wary of VCs might be interested in them. Of course there are scams (always will be if money is involved).
  186. Guus It was basically me throwing garlic at JC.
  187. jonas’ gav, 🧄
  188. jonas’ Guus, 🧄
  189. Guus iOS wise, I hear more and more positive things about Tigases client.
  190. Guus > Guus, 🧄 Hey, why didn't that pop up in my search?
  191. Daniel I think Siskin has a good chance of getting there
  192. jonas’ Guus, it doesn’t even render here
  193. Guus jonas’: it did for me
  194. jcbrand Back to Matthew von Matrix, what amazes me, is that in order to aggressively market something that's half-built, you have to have amazing faith in it's potential, or you have to not care about potential negative outcomes. Or what they call shutzpa (spelling?) in Yiddish.
  195. Daniel what nevgative outcomes? he gets paid either way
  196. jonas’ jcbrand, sorry, I fail to see it as anything except "be ready to deceive or delude a lot of people fully knowing that you may not be able to deliver what you’re promising at the moment"
  197. goffi jumping into the discussion, I confirm that Siskin is nearly there, but not yet. I've seen it used, it's not bad, but it still has annoying behaviour (not resizing image, with result in user no able to send it with random server limit, having to activate push notifs in settings, and message not received correctly when phone is sleeping). But it's really not far to be a nice app.
  198. jonas’ and I can’t admire that
  199. jonas’ add to that all the falsehoods spread about competitors
  200. Daniel > and message not received correctly when phone is sleeping it's nearly there. it just can’t deliver messages yet…
  201. goffi yeah it's not there *yet*
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  203. Daniel i get why it's complicated. but from an outsiders perspective you can’t help but wonder why 'message delivery' is not the first thing you start with when creating an instant messenger
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  205. MattJ goffi: not enabling push by default appears to be a bug that I'm currently investigating
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  208. goffi MattJ: wait, you're working on Siskin?
  209. MattJ I suspect it is working when the server software is Tigase, but it doesn't work on Prosody and possibly others
  210. goffi for Snikket?
  211. MattJ I'm working on Snikket, and Snikket needs an iOS client :)
  212. goffi OK, makes sense, and good news then
  213. MattJ Siskin was the closest, but not quite there yet
  214. jonas’ also closest in levenshtein distance.
  215. goffi ah ah, true :)
  216. goffi I had to check to not confuse both names actually :)
  217. goffi *to make sure I didn't confuse
  218. goffi The resizing issue should be trivial to fix, and is really annoying, I've seen somebody stopping using Siskin just for that (because that one of the primary thing you want to do, just send picture to your contact). Maybe it's better with latest version though, I don't know.
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  231. MattJ It's not implemented, but planned
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  236. emus Daniel: If you need qualified people to get a fund or any monetary support or to have it efficient (what does it mean though?), then criteria can be made up. I dont think it should be come like the standard to fund things, but if there are qualified people and meaningful tasks, its worth a try. If we completely fail, ok lessons learned. So far the GSoC seem to work, even within XMPP. > No you're not against? jcbrand thats suggestion ... Apart and in general: I wonder once we drop the term `marketing` everyone only thinks of the things we don`t like about it or tries to degrate the possibility. In my view we should treat such a possible approach with interest of external and internal communication. For example, haveing myths around about how bad XMPP is (e.g. see the recent hacker news threat) are definitively things noone wants here (right?). That could be something where we can invest in to ensure at least the technological understanding is not a matter of rumors. And further I also see this as a discussion and may find common ground (?). I think its not okay to critisize by saying "hey but then you need to do it!" or suggest the person who suggest things won't do anything on that. I would have few motivation to do anything if I would know everyone is against that or even would try to bring up obstacles (just extreme thinking). So, I think it is basically fine to state things that should be done, even without haveing someone named to do so firsthand. 🤔
  237. jcbrand emus: not suggestion, I was trying to clarify whether he was for or against, it wasn't clear to me from his answer
  238. Daniel emus: you don't need to be qualified to get funding. But you need to be qualified to turn the funding into something useful
  239. jcbrand You can state things need to be done as much as you want, doesn't mean anybody will do it
  240. jonas’ you need to be qualified to get funding. not in doing actual work, but in writing compelling applications
  241. jcbrand Writing a compelling application is work
  242. jcbrand Honestly, this tendency by engineers to think only they do any real work is annoying
  243. jonas’ right
  244. jonas’ s/actual work/actual development work/
  245. jonas’ didn’t mean to diminish that
  246. Daniel Oh I agree yes. You need both
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  249. emus Why start with "writing a compelling" application. Thats a high expectation. I rather thought about features or partly improvements. As there are qualified people in XSF, I would have no fear that a fund request could not be evaluated. Its not that funding projects/ideas should start from nowhere with no references. (Start with small steps) But I guess I dont say something new.
  250. Guus Let's just start doing stuff, instead of talking about how we start doing stuff.
  251. Zash The secret to success: Do stuff and talk about it.
  252. Guus JC has more paid work for Converse than he can do. There's room for more people to make money here, and thus improve the project. Winfried has reached out for help needed to convince Dutch authorities to standardize on XMPP which would offer massive opportunities for us all. lovetox wants more work for Gajim so that he can afford to spend more than 2 hours per week on it. We can work on all these, and more like these.
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  254. jcbrand Yes, there is definitely opportunity for more people to work on Converse and get paid for it.
  255. jcbrand Dele has been doing lots of paid work on Converse, but he's injured currently
  256. jcbrand I regularly get emails from people who want to build on it
  257. Guus my point is that there seem to be plenty of existing opportunities that we can use to generically improve XMPP. Let's focus on what we already have, instead of trying to find more.
  258. Guus I'm not sure if he got non-public responses, but the feedback to Winfrieds call for help publicly was minimal. That's a shame.
  259. jcbrand > I regularly get emails from people who want to build on it And I'm fully employed, so can't do these jobs
  260. Guus How is it that you think you are getting these emails? In the sense that, how can other projects that _want_ to be getting job offers but do not currently get them, can improve here?
  261. Guus eyes lovetox
  262. jcbrand Because we dev is where the business opportunities are, not desktop clients
  263. jcbrand Because web dev is where the business opportunities are, not desktop clients
  264. Daniel Same here fwiw. I'm also getting more opportunities than I can or want to work on
  265. jcbrand It's not about what you as dev want, it's about how you can help other people achieve what they want
  266. jcbrand Well, best is win win, but you can't just focus on yourself
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  268. Daniel That's also why I said yesterday that we seem to be doing an OK job of marketing xmpp to people who want to build their own stuff
  269. jcbrand We're doing ok, but we lack devs actually, that's what this is pointing to
  270. jcbrand But that's a good problem to have
  271. jcbrand Means demand outstrips supply
  272. Guus Let's focus on _that_ problem then.
  273. Zash Seems you either have too much work, or none at all. No inbetween.
  274. jcbrand That's what I've been trying to highlight for a while now, both maybe did it in a wrong East
  275. jcbrand That's what I've been trying to highlight for a while now, both maybe did it in a wrong way
  276. jcbrand > Seems you either have too much work, or none at all. No inbetween. When it rains it pours
  277. jcbrand s/both/but
  278. jcbrand IMO the best thing for the XMPP community is to have many opportunities for people to earn an income as employees, freelancers it companies
  279. jcbrand IMO the best thing for the XMPP community is to have many opportunities for people to earn an income as employees, freelancers and companies
  280. jcbrand A rising tide lifts all boats
  281. jcbrand But IMO some people need to loosen their ideological rigidity
  282. emus > But IMO some people need to loosen their ideological rigidity Which is?
  283. Daniel speaking for myself here (but I can imagine that JC is going at something similiar): If you want to work full time on XMPP not all jobs are going to be fun or alligned with what you think are good, federated products. but working full time on XMPP - even if it is working for The Man(tm) increases your knowledge and understanding of xmpp
  284. jcbrand Yes
  285. Daniel also even if the code you end up writing might not even be open source the engineering you do is something that might be transferable
  286. jcbrand Yes, and often you can open source
  287. jcbrand I'm still writing over 80% FOSS code
  288. jcbrand You just need to be able to sell the benefits of FOSS
  289. Daniel for me personally it's (currently) less than 80%. but i still find it valuable what i'm learning in the process
  290. Daniel for example i rewrote an OMEMO stack recenctly that isn’t open source. but i gained a lot of knowledge that I can put into improving the XEP
  291. jcbrand The older I get, the more I value pragmatism over ideological purity
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  296. jcbrand Daniel: how could you wrote an closed source OMEMO stack? Do they have a libsignal license or is it now without OMEMO?
  297. jcbrand I haven't kept up to date there
  298. jcbrand Sorry, without libsignal
  299. Daniel I just wrote the (xmpp) code. the legal aspects of that are not my department
  300. jcbrand Ok, but so it's still using libsignal
  301. jcbrand Ok, so it's still using libsignal
  302. Daniel it's also server side code. so i'm not sure how the GPL would work here
  303. Daniel since it's not agpl
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  306. emus > Let's just start doing stuff, instead of talking about how we start doing stuff. (and also Zash) I disagree on that. From my perspective we should consider questioning how we start doing things at least in a general, organisational attitude more together and not each one alone (strongly speaking). That can counts for at least external communication. And as there are so many different internal views you cannot "just do" communication, you need most actors on you side (?). So what is the lowest common denominator of what we agree on how to attract e.g. more developers to XMPP? _(can I actually say that in English^^)_ I my opinion, we should not leave things by default to people just being annoyed and then cook their own stuff... which is still okay. But I don't know if that is what we like to see in the end. (I know there are many attempts, not degrading that!) And I also say that because I am not sure what I might should tell the world about XMPP/XSF. Of course, I have my understanding and my ideas and I "just do" what i think is right. But is that very much aligned to a strategy or peoples direct feedback? I doubt...
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  308. Guus I feel that in the past half year, we've been running in circles. I feel we've wasted time, without making much progress, while all the time, opportunities were there for the taking. It's been a demotivating experience for me.
  309. jcbrand IMO, the way to attract developers to XMPP is to make it clear that there are economic opportunities
  310. emus jcbrand, Daniel: but I guess you both and others are the few giving know'edge back to a XEP... but wait I still dont get the ideology in that manner?
  311. emus > I feel that in the past half year, we've been running in circles. I feel we've wasted time, without making much progress, while all the time, opportunities were there for the taking. It's been a demotivating experience for me. I understand, still I thinl its necessary
  312. jcbrand Guus: what opportunities are you thinking of?
  313. emus > IMO, the way to attract developers to XMPP is to make it clear that there are economic opportunities Will consider that
  314. Guus opportunities to increase the amount of paid resources to work on XMPP, thus improving the entire ecosystem.
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  316. jcbrand By doing what? I agree that we need to do that, I'm just wondering what could have been done that wasn't
  317. Guus for one: help Winfried.
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  319. Guus apart from myself, I've only seen one response to his call for help. And at the same time, we're having some kind of meta-discussion that keeps getting no-were. That annoys me.
  320. Guus apart from myself, I've only seen one response to his call for help. And at the same time, we're having some kind of meta-discussion that keeps getting nowhere. That annoys me.
  321. pep. > jonas’> pep., I agree with MattJ on "this is not how 'open-source' [FLOSS] works though": Just by saying "it would be cool if we had", nothing will appear magically. In the meantime MattJ's two main clients are Freeware as he says. That must count for something. Just as the XMPP community has been depending for decades on two other projects like gajim or pidgin that it loves to hate. These are projects that we should try to support and not just laugh at because “there's no business model it's not sustainable”.
  322. jcbrand Yeah, there definitely is the risk of just talking ask the time and not getting things done. However, taking can also help a lot. For example I didn't know about Winfried's thing, or forgot, which brings as back to marketing (in the sense of raising awareness about something).
  323. jcbrand Yeah, there definitely is the risk of just talking all the time and not getting things done. However, taking can also help a lot. For example I didn't know about Winfried's thing, or forgot, which brings as back to marketing (in the sense of raising awareness about something).
  324. jcbrand Yeah, there definitely is the risk of just talking all the time and not getting things done. However, taking can also help a lot. For example I didn't know about Winfried's thing, or forgot, which brings us back to marketing (in the sense of raising awareness about something).
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  326. jcbrand pep.: Nobody here is laughing at them. You seem to be implying ill intentions
  327. Daniel well Winfrieds thing is mostly regulatory and politics, no? as someone who has repeatedly tried that angle I can understand that this is not everybodies cup of tea
  328. Daniel it's extremly frustrating
  329. pep. > jcbrand> IMO, the way to attract developers to XMPP is to make it clear that there are economic opportunities We're definitely not going for the same target
  330. Daniel for example I had some back and forth email exchanges with the consumer protection agency here in Germany (is that the proper term?) that ended up leading nowhere
  331. jcbrand pep.: I know that by now. You seem to think business is evil
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  333. Daniel it is. but i've learned to not hate the player but the game :-)
  334. pep. jcbrand: I don't think "business" is evil no, that's a quite poor understanding
  335. jcbrand I'm sorry for being so dumb
  336. pep. ..
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  338. MattJ pep.: clarification, I didn't call anything I do "Freeware", it was a poor attempt at sarcasm after you told me you weren't interested in " open-source" but "free software"
  339. pep. MattJ: I was talking about poezio and yaxim
  340. MattJ I personally default to the term "open-source" because it is well understood, and "free software" is ambiguous in English and that is not understood well by people outside FLOSS communities
  341. pep. it's indeed not really meant for the same people
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  347. MattJ You said yesterday that "money is secondary" - that's a privileged thing to say, and unrealistic for many. Some people still can't even afford internet access, let alone spend any of their time coding without compensation
  348. MattJ Free software is by default unsustainable, the people who work on it tend to be people with comfortable jobs who can afford to spend a margin of their time working for free on something they believe in or that interests them
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  350. MattJ Those comfortable jobs are typically (but not always) proprietary software development
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  352. MattJ So yes, Pidgin has no business model and also happens to have a developer shortage
  353. Daniel Most, successful open source software is developed by companies with business models
  354. larma Daniel, most but not all 🙂
  355. Daniel larma: can you name popular examples of software that isn't?
  356. larma Most successful things are done by companies with business models
  357. Daniel Honestly asking but I don't now of one
  358. larma debian?
  359. MattJ If they have a lot of hype around them, they can attract those people who have comfortable jobs
  360. Holger Or old-school Unix-y tools which don't require tons of dev time to be successful. I think the perception of those being "successful" might mislead people to think that model works similarly well for other types of software.
  361. MattJ People get paid to work on Debian full time
  362. Daniel > debian? Fair ish point. But the components certainly aren't
  363. MattJ Various industries rely on it
  364. mukt2 has left
  365. Daniel The kernel is developed almost exclusively by paid people
  366. Daniel So is systemd
  367. Daniel Or what ever other components there are in Debian
  368. larma I think there is a difference between people being paid by a company to develop software and companies developing software
  369. Holger Vim Mutt zsh tmux i3 sway tons of others ...
  370. pep. Daniel: you said earlier you tend to hate the game rather, but who do you think keeps it going :p
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  372. MattJ Holger: all software by devs for devs
  373. MattJ If not motivated by money, people are motivated to build stuff they want to use themselves
  374. jcbrand Concerning Winfried and playing the bureaucratic game, that requires a skillset that not everyone has, especially the many devs and engineers that are overrepresented in the XMPP community. Winfried, is not a dev, and so I think it's not a coincidence that he tries to help XMPP in this (non-dev) way. We need more people like him, and while I can understand the frustration that he wasn't getting much help, I'm don't think that devs can, want or should have to do all kinds of work in areas in which they don't have expertise. So... I'm glad Winfried is in our community, and I wonder how else can we attract people that could help with initiatives like the one he started.
  375. MattJ +1
  376. Holger MattJ, yes that's what I meant to say. My point was just, such examples mislead some people to believing a volunteer-driven Open Source development model works also for other kinds of software.
  377. pep. So is it fine for Windried to wander into political territories as long as it's not stamped XSF?
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  379. pep. (just its members)
  380. jcbrand pep. nobody said that...
  381. Daniel When I wander into political territories I always low key drop that I'm in the council of the xsf
  382. Holger pep., that's the fun part of this game, you either play along or you loose. You can't simply decide to play a different game.
  383. larma MattJ, I don't think it's fair to say that most debian developers are paid and therefor debian is a paid project. Popular software is used by companies, thus companies want to improve it. I'd tend to say that debian was popular *before* it was mostly paid work.
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  385. larma That's why I picked debian 😉
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  388. goffi « can you name popular examples of software that isn't? » ==> there are plenty of them, GIMP and Blender just to name 2 famous ones.
  389. pep. Holger, I'm not so sure that's true :)
  390. pep. jcbrand, nobody said what exactly?
  391. pep. (Sorry I'd prefer to have details before replying)
  392. goffi Blender is really a school case, it didn't succeed commercially, was saved by community and is now praised by big commercial actors
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  395. jcbrand pep. what you where rhetorically asking
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  397. pep. jcbrand, board yesterday said they'd rather not engage in ""activism"" (I double quote that because it's not exactly how I'd define it, but it's fine)
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  399. pep. So I'm curious where Winfried's adventures fit in
  400. jcbrand pep. regardless of that, I was purposefully saying "community" and not "XSF"
  401. jcbrand pep. I sense a lot of sarcasm and resentment in your writings. As if you have an axe to grind.
  402. Holger pep., one can always discuss whether and how much room to move exists within the game, but I'm convinced the core issue is very true, unfortunately. The fact that WhatsApp does closed business is because that's a rational decision given the rules of the game, so ill-intentions of the player would be a poor explanation of the situation.
  403. pep. Right and I'm saying we should really have the courage to admit that a set of people composing the XSF and the XSF are the same thing, and the XSF should take responsability for its actions
  404. pep. Instead of just saying "muh it's not us, it's just 100% of our members"
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  407. pep. Is it just an act not to lose its face in front of some kind of public? What's the goal exactly
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  410. MattJ The goal is to be standards organisation
  411. pep. And that again..
  412. MattJ I don't care if 100% of members happen to be musicians
  413. MattJ Music is still not the focus of the XSF
  414. pep. Nice strawman
  415. MattJ You said that the XSF is what its members are
  416. pep. And now I'm wondering if you're just playing with words
  417. MattJ I say it's what its members want it to be
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  419. MattJ Related to the fact that I agree with many of your principles, but I disagree with pushing them onto the XSF
  420. MattJ I honestly think it is 1) incorrect 2) harms the XSF 3) harms the cause
  421. MattJ The effort wasted on trying to transform the XSF could be put into something more likely to have a successful outcome
  422. pep. harms the XSF in what way?
  423. MattJ By defocusing it from standards
  424. MattJ And building XMPP
  425. pep. MattJ, yeah just like I could say the efforts wasted on Debian could help some other part of the Free software world to strive. It's irrelevant because I don't get to say that
  426. pep. And also what's a successful outcome?
  427. Holger Straightforward specs that make it more attractive/easy to implement a modern client based on XMPP.
  428. jcbrand pep. I think if you came up with concrete suggestions for something that's political or "activist", then they might actually be accepted by the XSF. But at least to me... simply wanting the XSF to be political or activist in a general sense is very dangerous because then any person with some kind of political or activist cause could try to use the XSF as a vehicle to further that cause, which would IMO harm the XSF and the community in general.
  429. jcbrand But if you came up with a proposal for one specific thing, like trying to get the Dutch parliament to accept XMPP (or somesuch), it might actually be accepted as something under the XSF banner
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  431. jcbrand And if it isn't, then you could still do it in your personal capacity or start (or join) a different organisation in order to further that goal
  432. pep. jcbrand, “any person with some kind of political or activist cause could try to use the XSF as a vehicle to further that cause”, I've already said it multiple times before it was dismissed as "not politics", but the XSF is already serving as a vehicule to further some cause, and that's part of what I'm saying when I say we should have the courage to admit it.
  433. pep. But I guess we're running in circles as always
  434. jcbrand Yes, you've said that many times, but many people don't agree with you on that point
  435. pep. So that makes it wrong
  436. jonas’ is there right and wrong in politics?
  437. jcbrand No, it means that there's nothing actionable there for the XSF because there isn't agreement
  438. pep. jcbrand, :)
  439. pep. oops, jonas’*
  440. pep. (damn poezio completion)
  441. pep. Damn me, why am I even trying to disturb the game, players are all so focused and in agreement already
  442. jonas’ which game?
  443. Kev Fortnite.
  444. jcbrand Yea, they use XMPP
  445. Kev What a coincidence that I picked that game, then.
  446. jcbrand I know you're smart like that Kev
  447. pep. has left
  448. Kev 🤓
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  451. jcbrand Oh, something I wanted to mention earlier also when I wrote about supply and demand... I want to point out that Guus has been mentoring and even paying XMPP devs out of pocket (OpenFire and Converse) in order to get new people skilled and involved in XMPP dev work. So he's actively helping to get more devs involved in XMPP. There are so many ways in which people can help grow the community. Ted Sterr and pep. and jonas’ also do a lot of work and emus on the newsletter. Ok, I have to stop otherwise there's a long list of people to mention. All in all, like Daniel, I think we're doing pretty well as a Guus
  452. jcbrand lol, I mean as a community
  453. jcbrand But I'll leave that there
  454. Kev Everyone wants to be a Guus ;)
  455. Guus Between you and me, it takes a toll on me emotionally, realizing that I'm such a role model. 🙂
  456. jcbrand Yes, please don't let us down Guus, we're counting on you!
  457. jcbrand Don't ever slip up or make a mistake...
  458. Kev I can see it would be hard.
  459. Kev Superstardom must be a drain.
  460. jonas’ Hyvä Guus! Hyvä Guus! Hyvä Guus!
  461. Kev jonas’: gesundheit
  462. jonas’ Kev, finnish for "Go Guus!" times three
  463. Guus he's basically shouting that I need to leave.
  464. Kev How fickle fans can be.
  465. jcbrand lol
  466. Guus It was nice while it lasted.
  467. jonas’ Guus, literally translated it is "Good Guus!"
  468. jonas’ so your interpretation is not quite working out
  469. Guus I think any interpretation that revolves around me being a superstar is not quite working out. 😃
  470. jonas’ :D
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  549. adiaholic_ Greetings everyone, This is in context with data forms. The form fields inside examples at, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0157.html#example-2 and https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0128.html#example-1 do not have a form field type. If servers send such data forms, clients end up assuming that the form fields are of type text-single(since it is default type).
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  553. adiaholic_ XEP-004 explains how form field variables are to be used in case of data forms of type `form` and `submit` but not for type `result`. The line from XEP-004, "fields provided in the context of other forms types MAY possess a 'type' attribute as well." bothers me since forms of type `result` need form field type.
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  555. adiaholic_ Do we feel the need to add form field type to the examples?
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  558. lovetox adiaholic_, what would be the problem with assuming a type text-single?
  559. lovetox ok forget that question
  560. lovetox lets start with the question, the examples you linked
  561. lovetox say type=hidden
  562. lovetox ok also forget that
  563. lovetox i get now what you are saying, the address fields
  564. adiaholic_ yes :)
  565. lovetox then back to the question, what is the problem with text-single?
  566. lovetox its a "result" iq
  567. lovetox its not meant to be filled out and send somewhere
  568. adiaholic_ Yes, according to the XEP-0157 example the server sends that <iq>
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  570. lovetox yeah, and its read by your client, but thats not a form that is to be filled out
  571. lovetox so what does the type matter here?
  572. adiaholic_ Since there isn't a type involved, client might assume it of type single-text
  573. lovetox https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0157.html#registrar
  574. lovetox normally type on a field must only supplied if the type cant be known beforehand by a client
  575. lovetox but this xep tells exactly what will be in the form and what types the fileds are
  576. adiaholic_ right
  577. lovetox and you can identify that this xep applies by looking at FORM_TYPE
  578. adiaholic_ so the client should take care of that
  579. adiaholic_ Thanks for the clarification
  580. flow then we should probably clarify xep4, right now it reads like you can only omit the types for 'submit' type forms
  581. lovetox hm where do you read that flow
  582. lovetox fields provided in the context of other forms types MAY possess a 'type' attribute as well.
  583. lovetox and even for submit its optional
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  585. flow yeah, I think I kinda read over the sandwitch sentence in the middle
  586. flow yeah, I think I kinda read over the sandwitch half-sentence in the middle
  587. lovetox also i think the context in which the form is received matters
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  589. lovetox this is a disco of an entity, i dont know a client who would show a form GUI after a disco
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  591. lovetox this is in 99.9 % read by a machine
  592. lovetox a machine that does not know the FORM_TYPE of server addresses
  593. lovetox should ignore the whole form
  594. lovetox and a machine that knows that form type , implementes the XEP and hence knows all types beforehand
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  597. flow what if fields get added later on?
  598. lovetox then they need to be registered in that register section or not?
  599. flow yes
  600. flow but your software is already deployed
  601. lovetox and if not, yes adding a type makes sense
  602. lovetox i would say everywhere where the receiving entity is not expected to know the type, a type should be added
  603. lovetox i think sometimes XEP0004 gets used as a simple data transfer format
  604. lovetox and sometimes it gets used to make it possible to display a Form GUI
  605. flow then cases where an entity is presented with an 'result' form field without the entity prior dealing with the field would require field types
  606. lovetox types are only important for the later i guess
  607. flow then cases where an entity is presented with an 'result' form without the entity prior dealing with the form would require field types
  608. lovetox if we look at server adresses, types are useless
  609. lovetox everything is list-multi
  610. lovetox every field contains a list of not defined things
  611. lovetox can be JIDs, email, http links whatever
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  613. lovetox 0004 is only used in one direction here, to transfer data in some known easy to parse format
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  616. lovetox hmmm
  617. lovetox haha, actually gajim would fail if the type is not supplied
  618. adiaholic_ lovetox, Same goes for Smack
  619. lovetox its problematic because you cant use your normal form parsing code here
  620. lovetox you would need to create an exception on seeing the FORM_TYPE
  621. lovetox then do a custom parsing
  622. lovetox not pretty
  623. lovetox though adiaholic_ which server does not suppy it?
  624. lovetox though adiaholic_ which server does not supply it?
  625. adiaholic_ I tried it with openfire
  626. lovetox ejabbered, and prosody supply it
  627. adiaholic_ I was just about to file a JIRA ticket but then looked upto examples
  628. lovetox i would simply create a issue with openfire, it makes sense to supply the types here, and its way less work on server side
  629. adiaholic_ I guess if ejabberd and prosody are already doing it, openfire can also do the same.
  630. lovetox of course the standard is written very generic, it is open to a trillion use cases
  631. lovetox does not mean it makes sense to omit the type in certain scenarios
  632. flow I think simple rules are better than special rules for certain scenarios
  633. flow I have just submitted a PR against xep4 that states that the field type can be omitted for 'result' fields
  634. flow I have just submitted a PR against xep4 that states that the field type can be omitted for 'result' forms
  635. vanitasvitae has joined
  636. flow while I actually tend to believe it would be better that we only allow omission for 'submit' forms
  637. lovetox im not sure that helps us here
  638. flow but given that we have already a few xep examples that show 'result' forms without types (on non text-single fields), I fear that ship has sailed
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  650. Wojtek sorry for being late to the party, but timezones... regarding siskin: > [2020-07-17 03:11:11] <goffi>: jumping into the discussion, I confirm that Siskin is nearly there, but not yet. I've seen it used, it's not bad, but it still has annoying behaviour (not resizing image, with result in user no able to send it with random server limit, Feature on github - please :-) > having to activate push notifs in settings, well, we don't enabled *silently* by default as push will route messages through APNS so that's kinda iffy by default. However - user should be asked when the account is created and siskin detects push support, if it should be enabled; on the other hand, we are also doing encrypted push notifications, so possibly we may change how push is enabled in the future. > and message not received correctly when phone is sleeping). This is very much issue with iOS and it's quite aggressive behaviour when it comes to managing apps. Push *should* handle that but it seems there is still a problem. And apple *doesn't* guarantee push notifications delivery
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  653. goffi Wojtek: thanks for feedback, I'll check with my contact if the issues are still there and report that (if I don't forget).
  654. Wojtek addendum - there was a bug in Siskin that sometimes user was not asked about enabling push or MAM - it was fixed recently
  655. Wojtek sure thing goffi.
  656. Wojtek in general - reporting things helps a lot with ironing out the issues :-)
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  663. MattJ Wojtek: fixed recently when? I'm on the latest beta and it doesn't work, and Andrzej said there was no known issue here
  664. MattJ Just want to know if I'm chasing down a bug that has already been fixed :)
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  666. Andrzej MattJ: I found cause of the issue today, so there is no build with a fix, but it is already fixed
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  668. MattJ <3
  669. MattJ Excellent news :)
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